How about toning down critical?

[TARINunit9]

Warframe in general would probably benefit from a massive downscaling of EVERYTHING. Halve our damage overall, quarter our crit and attack speed mods, reduce the benefit of the first Viral proc, and drop enemy health to match. Then, we can rework enemy AI, rework things that suck like blast damage, and overall have a better game

But that's too much work. Like no sarcasm, that probably is too much work for a game this built-up on old systems

[Slayer-.]

Nope, I'm all  nerfed  tweaked out.

Just leave things alone DE see it, get involved then it takes a few hotfixes to never fix all the problems of the tweaking.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage, and how easy to increase your critical damage to deal insane amount of damage (up to 8.4x with soma prime using vital sense and hammer shot), maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

I believe DE only said that in the context of Sentients Status Immunity.... Against Regular Factions, Both Crit and Status are lackluster on their Own.... hybrids on the other hand are the META...

3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

 

Crit isn't magic, it's just another multiplier that's multiplicative with other multipliers which is why hybrids are king.

+1 This !!!

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The only problem crit has in the current implementation is that it benefits high-crit weapons more than low-crit weapons. All other major stats scale the same regardless of weapon, IE a Serration and Heavy Caliber is always a 4.3x damage multiplier no matter what you put them on. That's not the case with crit mods, where the base crit stats of the weapon affect how much the mods actually benefit. Vital Sense and Point Strike is a 3.59x damage multiplier on the Rubico Prime, but only a 1.33x damage multiplier on the Burston. That means that the Rubico Prime benefits 2.69x more from the same mods. Crit weapons benefit far more from crit mods, letting them achieve higher build multipliers, and good weapons with good hybrid stats can also proc status, letting them benefit from both sides without any issue

I mean.... Yeah.... But its the same thing for Status Weapons.... Status Mods benefit Status Weapons more....  Soooo I don't get your point if I'm being honest...

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

 

Making crit stats additive would, for the most part, normalize this. If Point Strike was an additive +75% Crit Chance, and Vital Sense was an additive +2.5x Crit Damage, then most weapons would have about a 3.6x damage multiplier when using them together. A weapon with 0% base Crit Chance and 1x base Crit Multiplier would see a 2.88x damage multiplier, and a weapon with 50% base Crit Chance and 3.0x base Crit Multiplier would see a 3.31x damage multiplier. Our Rubico would get a ~3.46x damage multiplier and need a teensy buff to get back to ~3.6x, while our Burston would get a 3.32x damage multiplier. Now the Rubico Prime only gets about 1.08x more power from the same mods.

You know.... This is a Great Idea.. I think.... 

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Isn't most of Crit's power from that weird interaction/calculation it has with armor that makes crits better against armor?

You mean with Damage Values not Adding Up right ? I thought that only applied to Shields...

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Making crit stat additive doesn't help normalizing this. If all weapons get +75% base crit chance, might as well make every weapon have 75% critical chance. Swapping? If there's only one crit increase mod allowed, that would make things lower in power from limiting the number (unless you didn't read the part of not making crit mods stack) and the mods like vital sense not being a mandatory mod for every critical focused weapons

I knew I was overlooking Something !!!! Thank You !!! 

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Still too much damage. I advise the elimination of damage from weapons wholesale. Not only that Crits should heal the enemy. This will force players to use creativity and unorthodox methods to overcoming enemies. Too many players use weapons and powers to try and just beat enemies with power, what's the point? Lets replace Impact Puncture and Slash status, with Depression, Apathy and Hopeless status

You know.... It just might actually work !!! 

 

[RistN]

I knew something was awfully familiar about this post and about OP who wrote this. He also wrote this post :https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1280702-looks-like-its-time-to-tone-down-slash-and-viral/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-12290707. He started that topic too with words :"Seeing how people start saying they take down steel path sentients in one shot using Glaive Prime, I think it's really time to tone down slash and viral.". 

So guy who is talking about nerfing damage has knowledge about such complex game mechanics from things" someone said to him". 

[Dunkelheit]

Two things that should not go with each other:

no clue AND proposing a nerf

[iPathos]

Understanding how the calculations work for those same critical mods you mentioned would help elevate your understanding of why they aren't all used when possible. Diminishing returns are a thing and it's less impactful when considering status because it varies.

I stand with Uan91 and many others when things like this are said:

5 hours ago, Uan91 said:

Why would you nerf every weapon? Because you heard it? Look. I do understand you want challenge on Warframe but this game received a recent balance pass that has created a fair balance with all weapons and enemies. You can keep your nerds for yourself.

It's a preposterous idea to begin with as it's been at least related to Warframe's core mechanics from the very beginning, as has status while in a different form.

[Lolzster]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Warframe in general would probably benefit from a massive downscaling of EVERYTHING. Halve our damage overall, quarter our crit and attack speed mods, reduce the benefit of the first Viral proc, and drop enemy health to match. Then, we can rework enemy AI, rework things that suck like blast damage, and overall have a better game

But that's too much work. Like no sarcasm, that probably is too much work for a game this built-up on old systems

Path of Exile tried doing just that in the latest league and they've lost I believe 40% of their playerbase on launch compared to previous league and even greater numbers in week to week comparison. Between the dripfeed content business model WF has and that idea, it's a sure way to kill the game tbh.

Don't get me wrong, the power creep is getting a bigger and bigger problem and I DO think there's something that has to be done in this matter but... the playerbase is NOT ready for this. People want to feel powerful and taking already GAINED power AWAY from players is gonna piss them off (and rightfully so, that's a $&*^ move in any latitude). I think what we need is harder content but I'm afraid it has to be forced, unlike Steel Path. But then again is ages old problem with 'hp + damage buff for enemies = tedium NOT challenge', challenges like Nullifiers get hated to and back... But that's a DE problem not mine - bottom line is, nerfing us is imo not a good idea (at least not severely and not in all areas), DE has to check out other avenues in search of balance. Although looking at how they tackle balancing... let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any resemblance to balance at all.

[Hayrack]

Um... no. We have bullet sponges who are immune to status effects, so building around damage weaknesses and crit damage/chance is necessary if you don't wan't your missions lasting 1 hour.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I agree that critical damage scaling is an issue, and that it's further emphasized with critical damage from rivens.

But without rivens, arcane or other specific buffs (for example flat CHC from kavat) it's not that imbalanced.

And DE proved to don't care about balance, and won't change stuff as long as it's "usuable" (see invigoration buffs, and the current state of Yareli compared to Xaku)

[0_The_F00l]

Crit by itself is not really a major problem.

It's how it interacts with all the other multipliers and the various tools available to boost crit stats that kinda makes it seem broken.

There are far too many multipliers in warframe.

[SneakyErvin]

One of the main mistakes of WF is the above 100% chance for things. This applies both to status and crit. The crit damage stat itself is no issue, it is the "brutal" chance that makes thing whack. DE should have been far more restrictive with it and several of the multipliers we have. But it isnt the first game that makes use of "brutal" damage in crit calculations, and just like those other games it works poorly for game balance.

Crit should have been a 0-100% stat and that is it, heck even allowing you to push to 100% is harmful to game balance. Most balanced game systems tend to end up with good crit at 30% and insanely good crit at around 75% or so. It is just alot more healthy because it is easier to balance enemies around and it is easier to introduce items that interact with those stats, like on crit items, which is kinda impossible to introduce in a worthile and balance way when the players can hit 100% easily.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I honestly can't tell if this post is a troll or not, but in case it's in good faith:

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage

I haven't seen many prefaces that so efficiently and effectively encourage the reader not to trust the author.  Armchair thinking isn't entirely devoid of value, but if it also has armchair foundations it's all just meaningless.  First you need to get your facts straight, and only then should you get comfy in your LazyBoy.

[Lutesque]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Crit should have been a 0-100% stat and that is it, heck even allowing you to push to 100% is harmful to game balance.

This I disagree with.... If it's Imbalanced at the Full 100% then it's Imbalanced regardless of wherever you put it inbetween 0--100....

If you don't want Weapons to Crit That Hard... Nerf the Base Damage.... Don't nerf my beloved Consistency !!! 😱

 

[KosmicKerman]

This sounds an awful lot like someone has some crit rivens they want to sell.

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This I disagree with.... If it's Imbalanced at the Full 100% then it's Imbalanced regardless of wherever you put it inbetween 0--100....

If you don't want Weapons to Crit That Hard... Nerf the Base Damage.... Don't nerf my beloved Consistency !!! 😱

 

You can disagree all you like, that doesnt change how unhealthy it is for games and why most games avoid being even close to 100% crit chance. At 100%+ many factors that otherwise balance the stat are removed completely and so are many active player choices. And changing the base damage would solve nothing, since the reliance of crit would be identical, you'd just reduce the big number people are obsessed with while also reducing the level range of mobs you can effectively fight. 

WF as a game would likely be most healthy as a game where high crit would end up somewhere in the 50% range. That would allow them to drastically reduce mob TTL, which would also result in most frame kits being far more viable as actual damage dealers without needing scaling skills, which only a handful of frames actually have access too. Ontop of that it would allow mindcontrol effects to actually be useful as damage dealers. Plus with a sub 100% crit chance, headshots would suddenly also become rewarding, which they currently arent really.

 

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

One of the main mistakes of WF is the above 100% chance for things. This applies both to status and crit. The crit damage stat itself is no issue, it is the "brutal" chance that makes thing whack. DE should have been far more restrictive with it and several of the multipliers we have. But it isnt the first game that makes use of "brutal" damage in crit calculations, and just like those other games it works poorly for game balance.

Crit should have been a 0-100% stat and that is it, heck even allowing you to push to 100% is harmful to game balance. Most balanced game systems tend to end up with good crit at 30% and insanely good crit at around 75% or so. It is just alot more healthy because it is easier to balance enemies around and it is easier to introduce items that interact with those stats, like on crit items, which is kinda impossible to introduce in a worthile and balance way when the players can hit 100% easily.

Going above 100% Status is fine, I think. A Status based weapon applying multiple status' at once with enough investment is a decent way to boost its damage without relying on excessive multipliers. 

Crit i agree 100% on. Pun intended. 
Once you achieve 100% crit, the critical multiplier just becomes a flat, unconditional damage boost with Orange and Red crits just making it worse. 
And hilariously, Crit is a better source of Status damage than a Status weapon because of how it triggers a bleed based on the damage dealt instead of the base damage of the weapon ... Leading to my Chakkhur regularly leaving slash procs that tick for anywhere between 30k and 350k. 

But probably a more egregious problem with how Warframe does damage is just how many multipliers there are that all work together to produce some insane numbers. 
DE badly needs to rework how we deal damage in general. 
The reason we have absurd 99% DR Grineer in Steel Path and awkward DPS caps on bosses is a direct result of how many multipliers we can get running at once for some silly damage output. 
In no world is it necessary for a gun with a total listed damage per shot of 7000 to achieve a single shot that deals 17 million damage with virtually no setup or effort required, but thats the world we live in right now. 
Or my Shedu, whose on paper damage is 900 per shot, yet in mission does anywhere from 5k to 300k ... 
Hell, my Bonewidow's sword sweeps just casually do 1 million or more per swing against anything that isnt armored to hell. 
And as a direct result of that, DE has to put in awkward mechanics to curb that excessive power. 

We need a rework on damage dealing so that DE can properly balance armored enemies so that more weapon types and builds are viable in Steel Path and beyond.

[Jumpel]

il y a 15 minutes, Reitrix a dit :

Once you achieve 100% crit, the critical multiplier just becomes a flat, unconditional damage boost with Orange and Red crits just making it worse. 
And hilariously, Crit is a better source of Status damage than a Status weapon because of how it triggers a bleed based on the damage dealt instead of the base damage of the weapon ... Leading to my Chakkhur regularly leaving slash procs that tick for anywhere between 30k and 350k. 

This 

Remove Crit interaction with statut proc damage + buff those proc damage  ==> statut weapon more viable

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, Lolzster said:

challenges like Nullifiers get hated to and back... 

The problem with old Nullifiers was not the challenge, because they weren't challenging. No, the problems were a bunch of unfun consequences of how they spawned and could nullify you through walls and would screw over anyone running bows (still considered strong back then) and sniper rifles (considered very weak back then)

I haven't seen any hate for modern Nullifiers, nor do I think they are too weak. They're in a good spot

[Lutesque]

34 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can disagree all you like, that doesnt change how unhealthy it is for games and why most games avoid being even close to 100% crit chance.

Which games are you talking about ? 

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

At 100%+ many factors that otherwise balance the stat are removed completely and so are many active player choices.

What player Choices ?

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And changing the base damage would solve nothing, since the reliance of crit would be identical, you'd just reduce the big number people are obsessed with while also reducing the level range of mobs you can effectively fight. 

Yeah I'm struggling to see why that would be a bad thing.... Sounds like two Tons of Fun to me....

37 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

WF as a game would likely be most healthy as a game where high crit would end up somewhere in the 50% range.

Yeah That's way too low to bother with 😱 !!!

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would allow them to drastically reduce mob TTL, which would also result in most frame kits being far more viable as actual damage dealers without needing scaling skills, which only a handful of frames actually have access too. Ontop of that it would allow mindcontrol effects to actually be useful as damage dealers.

Yeah I'm not interested in any of that.... I just want my Consistency...

40 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus with a sub 100% crit chance, headshots would suddenly also become rewarding, which they currently arent really.

I don't understand...

Headshots are already Rewarding... How is Nerfing Consistency going to make them more Rewarding ?

39 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

We need a rework on damage dealing so that DE can properly balance armored enemies so that more weapon types and builds are viable in Steel Path and beyond.

I totally agree... But why punish my beloved Consistency ? 😭 It didn't do anything to you... 

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

I haven't seen any hate for modern Nullifiers, nor do I think they are too weak. They're in a good spot

Yeah we'll get ready to change your tune because I hate Nullifiers.... 

[SneakyErvin]

36 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Going above 100% Status is fine, I think. A Status based weapon applying multiple status' at once with enough investment is a decent way to boost its damage without relying on excessive multipliers. 

Yeah I think the main issue with status is the interaction with crit. If status was tied to the base and appropriate elemental damage on the weapon it would be easier to balance status and crit weapons. It would promote stacking base damage and elemental mods instead of crit stats if you want status to shine while also hindering crit weapons from producing insane status procs. Which would also resolve the "hybrid" weapons that really arent hybrids, just massive crit machines that also stack as much status as possible. Not so silly on ranged weapons though as it is on melee that have access to BR and WW. Both those mods would result in less issues if status was disconnected from damage dealt and instead relied on the damage of the weapon.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah we'll get ready to change your tune because I hate Nullifiers.... 

Were you around for the original Nullifiers?

[Lutesque]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Were you around for the original Nullifiers?

Nope...

[ThePunkyReason]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You make a lot of posts about nerfing the game. You're better off just finding a more boring game since you can't handle freedom and power lol. 

Why would DE release a slew of OP weapons, the helminth and then the invigorations on top of that? Clearly your vision and DEs doesn't align.

I really have no idea why you love posting so much and manage to never contribute anything to discussion while being generally crass and condescending. Any problem with this game is brushed off by you in sometimes a hilarious fashion. The huge amount of things interacting multiplicatively puts DE in a pretty horrible spot design wise for things like bosses especially, this is where people complain about the new adaptive damage reduction formulas and huge reliance on HP gaiting but the way damage works rn they literally have to so there is not a boss that can be killed in 10 seconds but is doable for most players or a boss that is 10 mins for a veteran but 10 years for nonmeta builds. Does doing 10 thousand damage instead of 1 million really take the fun out of the game when enemy hp is also vastly scaled back. Not really, gun play and abilities are still the same. Nerfing is okay sometimes. There are obvious problems with the way damage works right now and pointing that out is okay, I don't agree with his solution and that is also okay. Brushing it off as a non-issue makes zero sense however. I would look at the other post I quoted to get an idea of how to contribute to a conversation even when you don't agree with the topic.

 

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

🤔

Seems a bit counter-productive, if that's your goal. I don't really see how starting threads arguing in favor of the general ideas people like me have been talking about is going to convince us to stop. Like your thread arguing in favor of nerfing Slash and Viral. Uh, yeah, let's. Anyone that's not being willfully ignorant should be able to tell that Viral is over-performing compared to other status types. Likewise, anyone that's not being willfully ignorant should be able to tell that enemy Armor scaling is the real problem and not Slash. Or this thread, arguing in favor of changes that would lower player power. You're completely wrong about how to achieve it, but the sentiment is correct.

And there's not a single thing Madurai could say to convince me that the game balance isn't critically important. Let him keep blaming us "casuals" for wanting a harder game. 🙄

Edit: Though I should point out, what I brought up would be a buff to just about all weapons. And it's also pretty similar to what you yourself said in the OP about "OR Change them to be additive instead". Which makes Madurai's comment about nerfs and you then blaming me for it just a little bit weird. And I know, me advocating for buffs might seem contradictory, but being able to understand the big picture is just what happens when you stop to actually think from your armchair.

This hits the nail on the head, armor scaling and the many multiplicative interactions are what is broken, picking one in particular just doesn't make sense in general. The OPs solution to this doesn't make it not multiplicative. Make critical damage additive along with viral and multishot would go a long way and be a more equitable nerf. I think I've seen requests to make certain mod bonuses additive and I don't like how it makes so many weapons feel homogenous. Very weapon would be built like a hybrid if crit mods additively increase crit stats, which I don't think is ideal.

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I mean.... Yeah.... But its the same thing for Status Weapons.... Status Mods benefit Status Weapons more....  Soooo I don't get your point if I'm being honest...

Which is what I thought initially, too, but they actually don't! It's kinda interesting. A given amount of Status Chance increases your procs/sec by the same amount regardless of which weapon it's on.

+500% Status Chance on a Kuva Nukor takes it from 10 × 50% procs/sec (5/sec) to 10 × 300% procs/sec (30/sec), a 6x increase.

+500% Status Chance on a MK1-Braton takes it from 7.5 × 5% procs/sec (0.375/sec) to 7.5 × 30% procs/sec (2.25/sec), a 6x increase.

In this case, the same mods do the same things regardless of weapon.

There might be some increased benefit from being able to stack procs faster, but with the proc caps for most status types I don't know if a high status rate is all that valuable. If you try and rank weapons by popularity, MR, Disposition, etc. you'll find that procs/sec isn't a very strong indicator of how good or popular a weapon actually is. There seems to be a sweet spot for procs at around 1-2 procs/sec base which is fairly consistent.

Edit: Though this isn't to completely dismiss making Status additive. It might be worth exploring! But from what I've looked into, it probably isn't.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Which games are you talking about ? 

What player Choices ?

Yeah I'm struggling to see why that would be a bad thing.... Sounds like two Tons of Fun to me....

Yeah That's way too low to bother with 😱 !!!

Yeah I'm not interested in any of that.... I just want my Consistency...

I don't understand...

Headshots are already Rewarding... How is Nerfing Consistency going to make them more Rewarding ?

Pretty much any arpg, rpg, or shooter out there.

Like different damage buffs. If you hit 100% crit you may aswell use CD over raw damage at all times if available.

What would be two tons of fun? Changing a number and ending up the exact same?

Nope it isnt if you want a healthy game with balance and somewhat of a challenge. Something we will never have in WF as it is now.

You need to explain how you think it is more consistant now. Oh wow you use a gun or melee while the rest of the kit is 99% useless on the majority of the roster. Wouldnt a consistant loadout be more fun where you can use all tools at your disposal instead of spamming W or LMB?

Headshots would become more rewarding since you wouldnt be able to rely on every shot critting.