How about toning down critical?

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Nope...

Thought so

Classic Nullifiers spawned with 10 meter bubbles that could go through walls and ceilings, and had no weak point. Damage against their bubbles was gated at 600 damage. Ironically their bodies were (and still are) extremely weak, in a poorly-execute attempt at proper enemy design. Your options were to either waste ammo, or say goodbye to your buffs and kill them with one melee attack -- if they hadn't already stolen your buffs the instant they spawned, because they spawned with Max size bubbles that were not restrained by walls or closed doors. They could just spawn in a locker room with their bubbles clipping through the walls

Modern Nullifiers don't have any of these issues. They can shield their troops from a few bullets and they will nullify a Tenno who isn't paying attention, but they don't take entire magazines to bring down, they can't clip through walls anymore, and they have a weak point for players running sniper rifles. And they come in both melee and ranged now, to keep players on their toes

[ThePunkyReason]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is what I thought initially, too, but they actually don't! It's kinda interesting. A given amount of Status Chance increases your procs/sec by the same amount regardless of which weapon it's on.

+500% Status Chance on a Kuva Nukor takes it from 10 × 50% procs/sec (5/sec) to 10 × 300% procs/sec (30/sec), a 6x increase.

+500% Status Chance on a MK1-Braton takes it from 7.5 × 5% procs/sec (0.375/sec) to 7.5 × 30% procs/sec (2.25/sec), a 6x increase.

In this case, the same mods do the same things regardless of weapon.

There might be some increased benefit from being able to stack procs faster, but with the proc caps for most status types I don't know if a high status rate is all that valuable. If you try and rank weapons by popularity, MR, Disposition, etc. you'll find that procs/sec isn't a very strong indicator of how good or popular a weapon actually is. There seems to be a sweet spot for procs at around 1-2 procs/sec base which is fairly consistent.

I think you are missing the point. Your math is correct but you are looking at it the wrong way. In your scenario your status weapon is getting 25 more procs which is much more damage than the non status which is getting 2 more procs. One of these is much higher value just like a crit weapon.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I think you are missing the point. Your math is correct but you are looking at it the wrong way. In your scenario your status weapon is getting 25 more procs which is much more damage than the non status which is getting 2 more procs. One of these is much higher value just like a crit weapon.

I thought I addressed that, though?

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

There might be some increased benefit from being able to stack procs faster, but with the proc caps for most status types I don't know if a high status rate is all that valuable. If you try and rank weapons by popularity, MR, Disposition, etc. you'll find that procs/sec isn't a very strong indicator of how good or popular a weapon actually is. There seems to be a sweet spot for procs at around 1-2 procs/sec base which is fairly consistent.

Those 25 more procs just hit the proc cap faster, and procs/sec doesn't seem to be as strong of an indicator for how "good" a weapon is compared to crit. But like I also said, making Status additive might be worth looking into. It just probably isn't.

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is what I thought initially, too, but they actually don't! It's kinda interesting. A given amount of Status Chance increases your procs/sec by the same amount regardless of which weapon it's on.

+500% Status Chance on a Kuva Nukor takes it from 10 × 50% procs/sec (5/sec) to 10 × 300% procs/sec (30/sec), a 6x increase.

+500% Status Chance on a MK1-Braton takes it from 7.5 × 5% procs/sec (0.375/sec) to 7.5 × 30% procs/sec (2.25/sec), a 6x increase.

How is that any different from crit chance? The end result should be the same if you convert your crit chance to crits/sec.

Crits impact/value on different weapons come from the damage multiplier of the weapon. The /sec increase in crit occurance is the same. 

Status' impact/value on different weapons comes from the available statuses on the weapon. A weapon with no stacking damaging status benefits far less from a status chance increase than one with heat, slash, electric or gas. And a weapon with a more beneficial stat weight benefits even more from the status chance, be it due to higher occurnace or an innate portion of the right element.

edit: Like your example. The Kuva Nukor benefits far more since it has a much better stat weight to produce ever increasing heat procs, it also has the potential to proc 30 procs in a single second versus only 2.25 for the Braton. That results in a massively quicker ramp up time for those damaging heat procs.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Everyone confuses diminishing returns with opportunity costs.

Stacking more base damage, elements and crit results in opportunity costs.

Status procs have actual diminishing returns.

First Viral proc adds +100%, each subsequent one adds +25% capping at +325%.

DE should probably add an Overload Status effect. When reaching the 10 cap on a status effect, subsequent procs are converted into Overload.

Overload is a dot that scales off status%.

[Lutesque]

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is what I thought initially, too, but they actually don't! It's kinda interesting. A given amount of Status Chance increases your procs/sec by the same amount regardless of which weapon it's on.

+500% Status Chance on a Kuva Nukor takes it from 10 × 50% procs/sec (5/sec) to 10 × 300% procs/sec (30/sec), a 6x increase.

+500% Status Chance on a MK1-Braton takes it from 7.5 × 5% procs/sec (0.375/sec) to 7.5 × 30% procs/sec (2.25/sec), a 6x increase.

In this case, the same mods do the same things regardless of weapon.

Where on earth are you getting 500% Status Chance ? 😱

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Pretty much any arpg, rpg, or shooter out there.

Yeah... Not a genre I'm particularly found of... Not necessarily for these reasons but it certainly didn't help 😞.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Like different damage buffs. If you hit 100% crit you may aswell use CD over raw damage at all times if available.

Indeed I shall... Isn't that fun ? 😁

That's why I run Ivara with Empowered Quiver rather than Whatever the Prowl Augment was...

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What would be two tons of fun? Changing a number and ending up the exact same?

Indeed... That's my beloved Consistency hard at work... 👍

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope it isnt if you want a healthy game with balance and somewhat of a challenge. Something we will never have in WF as it is now.

Balance and Challenge are overrated honestly... I used to think that's what I wanted... But now I want MOAR !!!

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You need to explain how you think it is more consistant now.

That's easy... 100% Crit Chance means you get Yellow Numbers all the time instead of some of the time if it were less than 100%...

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Oh wow you use a gun or melee while the rest of the kit is 99% useless on the majority of the roster.

I'm just not that fond of Melee... real Ninjas use Guns Exclusively... 😎

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Wouldnt a consistant loadout be more fun where you can use all tools at your disposal instead of spamming W or LMB?

Indeed it certainly will... But why does my Beloved Consistency have to suffer ? 😭

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Headshots would become more rewarding since you wouldnt be able to rely on every shot critting.

Who on earth doesn't want Reliable Crits ? 😱 Also still not seeing what Crit Reliability has to do with Headshots Shots 🤔...

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Thought so

Shocking I know... 😝

16 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

 

Classic Nullifiers spawned with 10 meter bubbles that could go through walls and ceilings, and had no weak point. Damage against their bubbles was gated at 600 damage. Ironically their bodies were (and still are) extremely weak, in a poorly-execute attempt at proper enemy design. Your options were to either waste ammo, or say goodbye to your buffs and kill them with one melee attack -- if they hadn't already stolen your buffs the instant they spawned, because they spawned with Max size bubbles that were not restrained by walls or closed doors. They could just spawn in a locker room with their bubbles clipping through the walls

Sounds almost Identical to current Nullifiers 🤔...

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Modern Nullifiers don't have any of these issues. They can shield their troops from a few bullets and they will nullify a Tenno who isn't paying attention, but they don't take entire magazines to bring down, they can't clip through walls anymore, and they have a weak point for players running sniper rifles. And they come in both melee and ranged now, to keep players on their toes

Yeaaaaaaah.... Nullifiers still clip through both Ceilings/Floors and Walls... The Hurtbox on the "Weak Point" is significantly smaller than the Model it's a attached to which wasn't big enough to begin to begin with... And they still take an entire Clip to whittle down since The Amount of damage is irrelevant... Only the Number of Non-Simultaneous Hits... Which sucks for Shotgun Toting Tenno such as myself...

You seriously never heard anybody Complaining about this stuff ? Back when I used to play I heard complaints about them all the time... I guess they got overshadowed by other issues in my Absence...

23 minutes ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I think you are missing the point. Your math is correct but you are looking at it the wrong way

Was it ?

I honestly didn't understand any of it... All I know is slapping 60/60 Mods on the Corinth does Didly Squat but do the same on The Dread and there's alil bit of Hope of getting some Procs.... 

Now If I knew where to get 500% Raw Status Chance... That might be a different story 😲...

 

[TARINunit9]

47 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yeaaaaaaah.... Nullifiers still clip through both Ceilings/Floors and Walls...

No they don't, not like they used to

So no, you really are the first person I have heard complain about nullifiers in about three years. Because as bad as you think they are, the rest of us remember when they were FAR worse. I think you just need to git gud

[Lutesque]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

I think you just need to git gud

You just couldn't resist… couldn't you ?😐

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

How is that any different from crit chance? The end result should be the same if you convert your crit chance to crits/sec.

Crits impact/value on different weapons come from the damage multiplier of the weapon. The /sec increase in crit occurance is the same. 

Status' impact/value on different weapons comes from the available statuses on the weapon. A weapon with no stacking damaging status benefits far less from a status chance increase than one with heat, slash, electric or gas. And a weapon with a more beneficial stat weight benefits even more from the status chance, be it due to higher occurnace or an innate portion of the right element.

edit: Like your example. The Kuva Nukor benefits far more since it has a much better stat weight to produce ever increasing heat procs, it also has the potential to proc 30 procs in a single second versus only 2.25 for the Braton. That results in a massively quicker ramp up time for those damaging heat procs.

Like I tried explaining to you the last time we talked about this, and like I explained on page 1:

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

All other major stats scale the same regardless of weapon, IE a Serration and Heavy Caliber is always a 4.3x damage multiplier no matter what you put them on. That's not the case with crit mods, where the base crit stats of the weapon affect how much the mods actually benefit. Vital Sense and Point Strike is a 3.59x damage multiplier on the Rubico Prime, but only a 1.33x damage multiplier on the Burston. That means that the Rubico Prime benefits 2.69x more from the same mods.

This isn't the case with Status. Status Chance mods produce the same multipliers regardless of base stats. +100% Status Chance is a doubling of procs/sec and thus a doubling of damage procs, regardless of the weapon its used on.

Let's just say that the Kuva Nukor only deals Heat damage, just to keep things simple. Let's also ignore the 60% damage bonus and crits too, again for simplicity, and say that it deals 26.25 Heat damage with 50% Status Chance 10 times a second. That's 5 Heat procs/sec that each deal 13.125 Heat damage/sec. After 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 15 Heat procs dealing 196.875 damage/sec. Adding +1,000% Status Chance gives it 11x the Status procs, causing it to deal 55 Heat procs/sec. This means that after the same 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 165 Heat procs collectively dealing 2,165.625 damage/sec. That's 11x more procs causing 11x more damage.

Now let's say that the MK1-Braton also only deals Heat damage and doesn't crit, again for simplicity, and say that it deals 18 Heat Damage with 5% Status Chance 7.5 times a second. That's 0.375 procs/sec that each deal 9 Heat damage/sec. After 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 1.125 Heat procs dealing 10.125 damage/sec. Adding +1,000% Status Chance gives it 11x the Status procs, causing it to deal 4.125 Heat procs/sec. This means that after the same 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 12.375 Heat procs collectively dealing 111.375 damage/sec. That's - again - 11x more procs causing 11x more damage.

It doesn't matter what numbers you use, the math is the same. Status scales the same regardless of base stats. This is the same as adding Damage, Multishot, Fire Rate, Faction Damage, Elemental/IPS damage, buffs, etc. All of these stats add the same multiplier no matter what weapon they're used on. Crit is one of the only ones that's different, where higher base crit stats produce a higher multiplier, not the same multiplier.

Edit: And then, of course, you run into proc caps. There's no benefit to applying more than 10 Viral or Corrosive procs, because the 11th doesn't give any extra power. So while being able to ramp up faster does give a small spike in damage, over time that spike doesn't really matter. In cases where the proc isn't capped, like Heat, the damage increase is multiplied the same amount, and in cases where the proc is capped, like Viral, having a higher proc rate doesn't really chance anything when looked at over time.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Where on earth are you getting 500% Status Chance ? 😱

I just picked random numbers to explain the math, lol. It works the same with any number you pick. We could look at 60/60s and be realistic, or pick a crazy number like +10,000% Status Chance. The pattern will be the same.

[Lutesque]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

This isn't the case with Status. Status Chance mods produce the same multipliers regardless of base stats. +100% Status Chance is a doubling of procs/sec and thus a doubling of damage procs, regardless of the weapon its used on.

So basically what you're saying is There's no Status Equivalent of Vital Sense ? But I assumed that's what the Bane Mods were for 🤔

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

Let's just say that the Kuva Nukor only deals Heat damage, just to keep things simple. Let's also ignore the 60% damage bonus and crits too, again for simplicity, and say that it deals 26.25 Heat damage with 50% Status Chance 10 times a second. That's 5 Heat procs/sec that each deal 13.125 Heat damage/sec. After 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 15 Heat procs dealing 196.875 damage/sec. Adding +1,000% Status Chance gives it 11x the Status procs, causing it to deal 55 Heat procs/sec. This means that after the same 3 seconds of fire, a target will have on average 165 Heat procs collectively dealing 2,165.625 damage/sec. That's 11x more procs causing 11x more damage

This is anything but Simple 😐...

I think where you lost me is The Damage Numbers.... My knowledge as far as this subject is concerned doesn't go past The Proc/Crit Chance... I never concerned myself with the actual Damage Values... Only whether or not I can bypass the RNG... Il worry about Damage Later once my weapon Behaves More Predictably

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

It doesn't matter what numbers you use, the math is the same. Status scales the same regardless of base stats. This is the same as adding Damage, Multishot, Fire Rate, Faction Damage, Elemental/IPS damage, buffs, etc. All of these stats add the same multiplier no matter what weapon they're used on. Crit is one of the only ones that's different, where higher base crit stats produce a higher multiplier, not the same multiplier

Yeah I'm still not getting it... I thought that's what Crit Damage Mods were suppose to do....  I mean... It's a Crit Damage Mod... 

Isn't it normal for a Crit Damage Mod to work Better on a weapon with an already High Crit Damage Multiplier ?

Don't other mods work the same way... Multishot Works better on Weapons with higher Pellet Counts.... Status Chance works better on Weapons with already Decent Status Chance.... Plus Damage Mods work better on Weapons with High Base Damage... Fire Rate ironically is the exact Opposite... Works better on Slower Weapons and makes little difference on faster ones...

If there's something different about how Vital Sense Works... I just don't see it ,😞.

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I just picked random numbers to explain the math, lol. It works the same with any number you pick. We could look at 60/60s and be realistic, or pick a crazy number like +10,000% Status Chance. The pattern will be the same.

Yes but In the actual Game I can't build up enough Status Chance to to turn a non-Status Weapon into a Status Weapon....  And even if I could... I would probably just build for Crit anyway... It's easier to understand...

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So basically what you're saying is There's no Status Equivalent of Vital Sense ? But I assumed that's what the Bane Mods were for 🤔

This is anything but Simple 😐...

I think where you lost me is The Damage Numbers.... My knowledge as far as this subject is concerned doesn't go past The Proc/Crit Chance... I never concerned myself with the actual Damage Values... Only whether or not I can bypass the RNG... Il worry about Damage Later once my weapon Behaves More Predictably

Yeah I'm still not getting it... I thought that's what Crit Damage Mods were suppose to do....  I mean... It's a Crit Damage Mod... 

Isn't it normal for a Crit Damage Mod to work Better on a weapon with an already High Crit Damage Multiplier ?

Don't other mods work the same way... Multishot Works better on Weapons with higher Pellet Counts.... Status Chance works better on Weapons with already Decent Status Chance.... Plus Damage Mods work better on Weapons with High Base Damage... Fire Rate ironically is the exact Opposite... Works better on Slower Weapons and makes little difference on faster ones...

If there's something different about how Vital Sense Works... I just don't see it ,😞.

Yes but In the actual Game I can't build up enough Status Chance to to turn a non-Status Weapon into a Status Weapon....  And even if I could... I would probably just build for Crit anyway... It's easier to understand...

The point is because Critical has two values that govern the damage. Chance and damage. Higher critical weapons will always have an edge over weapons with low crit values. If all weapons had the same Critical damage and above 100% chance there was no benefit.  Crit would work the same.  But it doesn't so stacking 300% crit with a 5-6x multiplier crit weapon means more than 300% on a non crit weapon with 1.5X base. 

[Wolfdoggie]

17 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

 maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

How was this ever a thought?

maybe you would like it if your boss came up to you and was like; "how would you like less pay for all the work you've done?"

 

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So basically what you're saying is There's no Status Equivalent of Vital Sense ? But I assumed that's what the Bane Mods were for 🤔

No, all I'm saying is that Status and Crit scale differently. The same Status mods scale your Status the same regardless of weapon. Crit mods scale your crits different on different weapons. Making Crit additive would make Crit mods scale more or less the same regardless of weapon, just like Status Chance and Damage and Multishot and Faction Damage and Elemental/IPS Damage and Fire Rate and so on.

6 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This is anything but Simple 😐...

It's a lot simpler than accounting for extra damage, crits, and different proc types, lol.

Here's an even simpler version using real mods: if you add two 60/60s, you increase your procs/sec by 2.2x, dealing 2.2x more damage from procs, with 2.2x more elemental damage. It's the same 2.2x increase on the Kuva Nukor as it is on the MK1-Braton. The weapon doesn't matter. Damage does this, Multishot does this, Fire Rate does this, Bane mods do this, every damage stat but Crit does this. So Status already scales fairly like other stats, and probably doesn't need to be changed.

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yes but In the actual Game I can't build up enough Status Chance to to turn a non-Status Weapon into a Status Weapon....  And even if I could... I would probably just build for Crit anyway... It's easier to understand...

Which is why I've been saying that looking into making Status additive too might be worthwhile. I just don't think it will be, because mathematically it shouldn't be.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

The point is because Critical has two values that govern the damage. Chance and damage. Higher critical weapons will always have an edge over weapons with low crit values. If all weapons had the same Critical damage and above 100% chance there was no benefit.  Crit would work the same.  But it doesn't so stacking 300% crit with a 5-6x multiplier crit weapon means more than 300% on a non crit weapon with 1.5X base. 

Oh you mean when you go over 100% sure if you want to Nerf that that's Fine... I only take issues with being denied Access to the full 100% Crit Chance because then every Crit That Doesn't Happen means Vital Sense is a Wasted Mod Slot 😱 !!!...

 

Also what did you do to Lil Roy ? 😠 If you laid a finger on him I swear... !!!

4 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

How was this ever a thought?

maybe you would like it if your boss came up to you and was like; "how would you like less pay for all the work you've done?"

 

We really shouldn't make Comparisons to Work....

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

No, all I'm saying is that Status and Crit scale differently. The same Status mods scale your Status the same regardless of weapon. Crit mods scale your crits different on different weapons. Making Crit additive would make Crit mods scale more or less the same regardless of weapon, just like Status Chance and Damage and Multishot and Faction Damage and Elemental/IPS Damage and Fire Rate and so on.

No they don't... Atleast not from what I observed.... If I Slap Crit a Chance mod and a Status Chance mod on a weapon with the same Base Crit and Status Chance... They scale the same way... If the base is 30% then adding 100% of either Crit Or Status Chance give me a total of 60% for either Stats doesn't it ? It's been Consistent on every weapon I've used... If it were practical to turn Miter into a Crit Weapon I think I would have atleast Noticed that 🤔... Maybe...

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Here's an even simpler version using real mods: if you add two 60/60s, you increase your procs/sec by 2.2x, dealing 2.2x more damage from procs, with 2.2x more elemental damage. It's the same 2.2x increase on the Kuva Nukor as it is on the MK1-Braton. The weapon doesn't matter. Damage does this, Multishot does this, Fire Rate does this, Bane mods do this, every damage stat but Crit does this. So Status already scales fairly like other stats, and probably doesn't need to be changed.

Again... You lost me right at the beginning when talk about Damage... I literally have no clue how the proc chance affects Damage....all I care about is getting the Procs to occur Predictably... The same goes for my Crit Weapons... I just don't wanna see White Numbers...

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It's a lot simpler than accounting for extra damage, crits, and different proc types, lol.

Isn't that what you just did ? It seems like you you accounted for Extra Damage at the very least... 🤔

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is why I've been saying that looking into making Status additive too might be worthwhile. I just don't think it will be, because mathematically it shouldn't be.

And now this part confuses me aswell 😞....

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, ThePunkyReason said:

I really have no idea why you love posting so much and manage to never contribute anything to discussion while being generally crass and condescending. Any problem with this game is brushed off by you in sometimes a hilarious fashion. The huge amount of things interacting multiplicatively puts DE in a pretty horrible spot design wise for things like bosses especially, this is where people complain about the new adaptive damage reduction formulas and huge reliance on HP gaiting but the way damage works rn they literally have to so there is not a boss that can be killed in 10 seconds but is doable for most players or a boss that is 10 mins for a veteran but 10 years for nonmeta builds. Does doing 10 thousand damage instead of 1 million really take the fun out of the game when enemy hp is also vastly scaled back. Not really, gun play and abilities are still the same. Nerfing is okay sometimes. There are obvious problems with the way damage works right now and pointing that out is okay, I don't agree with his solution and that is also okay. Brushing it off as a non-issue makes zero sense however. I would look at the other post I quoted to get an idea of how to contribute to a conversation even when you don't agree with the topic.

 

All these multipliers, yet people are still having trouble doing basic things in the game. 

Not everyone has been playing for 6 years and is bored because they figured out how to utilise every single facet of the game's advantages, then realized it was personally too much for them. But this is why we have duplicate mods and a mod ranking system. Use rank 2 mods if you care so much, and do missions with friends who also have rank 2 mods.

Let people actually reach a point where they're not afraid to go into an arbitration or steel path mission. Or learn how to not die 4 times during profit taker. Doesn't matter how many multipliers you have if no one's even using em all or dying all the time or can't keep up. 

There are people all over the forums and reddit and recruit chat asking for carries and help. I did the same thing, but now I can solo eidolons thanks to my sweet multipliers and helminth abilities and maxed Operator. I grinded for it so I'm gonna enjoy the fruits of my labor. 

Game wide stat squishes are a great way to cause a mass exodus and you're not the one paying DE. You're just one person in a 50/50 camp that wants the game nerfed and to try to make it some strict MMO, while others like it how it is and would be ok with even more multipliers. 

DE knows what they're doing. They do a little here and a little there and observe and make more adjustments. Lowered multipliers? Every single new weapon has a 0.5 dispo....that's the lowest a multiplier can get...and that hurt the game hard....even I was upset and people call me a white knight. 

 

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Again... You lost me right at the beginning when talk about Damage... I literally have no clue how the proc chance affects Damage....all I care about is getting the Procs to occur Predictably... The same goes for my Crit Weapons... I just don't wanna see White Numbers...

There's no way to talk about this without using numbers lol.

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

No they don't... Atleast not from what I observed.... If I Slap Crit a Chance mod and a Status Chance mod on a weapon with the same Base Crit and Status Chance... They scale the same way... If the base is 30% then adding 100% of either Crit Or Status Chance give me a total of 60% for either Stats doesn't it ? It's been Consistent on every weapon I've used... If it were practical to turn Miter into a Crit Weapon I think I would have atleast Noticed that 🤔... Maybe...

The number on the stat page scales the same, yes, but what's the effect of that stat increase? How much damage does that actually add to your build? For crit the effect is different depending on the weapon:

• If you add Point Strike to your Miter it multiplies your damage by 1.136x.
• If you add Point Strike to a Rubico Prime it multiplies your damage by 1.648x.
• The amount depends on the base Crit Chance and Crit Damage because of how the math works.

But Status Chance is the same on every weapon:

• If you add Rifle Aptitude to your Miter it multiplies your procs/sec by 1.9x.
• If you add Rifle Aptitude to a Rubico Prime it multiplies your procs/sec by 1.9x.
• It's always 1.9x more procs, and 1.9x more procs that deal damage, and reaching the 10-proc cap 1.9x faster.

And so is Damage:

• If you add Serration to your Miter it multiplies your damage by 2.65x.
• If you add Serration to a Rubico Prime it multiplies your damage by 2.65x.
• It's always 2.65x more damage on regular hits, 2.65x more damage on crits, and 2.65x more damage on Status Effects.

The same is true for Multishot, Fire Rate, Bane, Elemental Damage, etc. You can check this and see that it's true using any build site like overframe.gg.

[Silligoose]

11 hours ago, Lolzster said:

Path of Exile tried doing just that in the latest league and they've lost I believe 40% of their playerbase on launch compared to previous league and even greater numbers in week to week comparison. Between the dripfeed content business model WF has and that idea, it's a sure way to kill the game tbh.

Don't get me wrong, the power creep is getting a bigger and bigger problem and I DO think there's something that has to be done in this matter but... the playerbase is NOT ready for this. People want to feel powerful and taking already GAINED power AWAY from players is gonna piss them off (and rightfully so, that's a $&*^ move in any latitude). I think what we need is harder content but I'm afraid it has to be forced, unlike Steel Path. But then again is ages old problem with 'hp + damage buff for enemies = tedium NOT challenge', challenges like Nullifiers get hated to and back... But that's a DE problem not mine - bottom line is, nerfing us is imo not a good idea (at least not severely and not in all areas), DE has to check out other avenues in search of balance. Although looking at how they tackle balancing... let's just say I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any resemblance to balance at all.

This is a great point you bring up. Many Tenno seem to forget other aspects not directly tied to gameplay, such as player sentiment, plays a role in balancing decisions, whenever balance is discussed. I'm pretty sure DE discussed blanket nerfs behind closed, but given the negative reaction from at least a portion in the community, on forums, on reddit, in chat during streams, whenever nerfs are brought up, that discussion would not be long-lived, at least in-part due to player sentiment. I also understand why some players dislike the idea of nerfs on some cases.

With player sentiment in mind, I disagree that nerfs would need to be forced: DE would have the metrics, but I'm pretty sure a decent part of the community continues to play Warframe for the power-fantasy. Forcing nerfs would take that away from those that enjoy that. An optional mode wouldn't. That being said, an optional mode, akin to Steel Path, could also give those who seek a better balance, who seek to have a need for the skills and even team synergies that were learned along the way to end-game, an actual challenging difficulty setting to keep them more entertained instead of getting bored. Win-win.

That new optional mode would need to address more than merely our damage. The game isn't a challenge as a result of a variety of mechanics, including, but not limited to: Effective immortality of Warframes, enemy damage output scales too greatly compared to enemy durability (enemies actually do too much damage later on to keep a variety in playstyles/loadouts/Warframes viable), plethora of almost constant cc on enemies, self-damage removal etc. 

Can DE balance end-game properly? Well, many design choices and mechanics leave me scratching my head to be sure (eg certain enemies having complete immunity to status or damage, armor scaling, viral procs, Protective Dash etc etc), but I think if they had a small team focused on a mode in which they did not have to concern themselves with player sentiment as much when it comes to balance, they could have a far better balanced end-game.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

There's no way to talk about this without using numbers lol.

Numbers I can understand just fine... It's the Damage numbers that are too much for me..  😞

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If you add Point Strike to your Miter it multiplies your damage by 1.136x

How ?

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The amount depends on the base Crit Chance and Crit Damage because of how the math works.

What math ? Is there some sort of Hidden Formula ? 🤔

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But Status Chance is the same on every weapon:

• If you add Rifle Aptitude to your Miter it multiplies your procs/sec by 1.9x.
• If you add Rifle Aptitude to a Rubico Prime it multiplies your procs/sec by 1.9x.
• It's always 1.9x more procs, and 1.9x more procs that deal damage, and reaching the 10-proc cap 1.9x faster.

Okay now I know you're pulling my Leg... There's no way the Rubico can match The Miter's Proc Rate...

Miter's got 40% Status Chance.... And Rubico has less... I don't know how much less but I'm pretty it's low enough to show a clear difference in Proc Rate....

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The same is true for Multishot, Fire Rate, Bane, Elemental Damage, etc. You can check this and see that it's true using any build site like overframe.gg

That's an External Site.... I'm talking about Slapping Rifle Aptitude on the Actual Weapon and Shooting it at Real Enemies... 

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I see we have another candidate for "worst idea of the year"..

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

How ?

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The amount depends on the base Crit Chance and Crit Damage because of how the math works.

What math ? Is there some sort of Hidden Formula ? 🤔

Not so much "hidden", as "different from everything else". And if you don't like the numbers you're not gonna like the explanation lol...

Spoiler

Quote

Your Average Crit Multiplier is 1 + Modded Crit Chance × (Modded Crit Damage  - 1). Because of the way this formula works, adding a Crit Chance Mod increases the effect of your Crit Damage — and therefore Crit Damage Mods — and vice-versa.

• The MK1-Braton with 8% Crit Chance and 1.5x Crit Damage deals 1.04x more damage on average from crits.
• If you add Point Strike to the MK1-Braton it now has 20% Crit Chance and 1.5x Crit Damage and deals 1.10x more damage on average from crits.
• If you also add Vital Sense to the MK1-Braton it now has 20% Crit Chance and 3.3x Crit Damage and deals 1.46x more damage on average from crits.
• The MK1-Braton started off at 1.04x and got to 1.46x, an increase of 1.4x from these two mods.
   
• The Rubico Prime with 38% Crit Chance and 3.0x Crit Damage deals 1.76x more damage on average from crits.
• If you add Point Strike to the Rubico Prime it now has 95% Crit Chance and 3.0x Crit Damage and deals 2.90x more damage on average from crits.
• If you also add Vital Sense to the Rubico Prime it now has 95% Crit Chance and 6.6x Crit Damage and deals 6.32x more damage on average from crits.
• The Rubico Prime started off at 1.76x and got to 6.32x, an increase of 3.59x from these two mods.

Vital Sense and Point Strike affect these two weapons differently because of the difference in base stats.

19 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Okay now I know you're pulling my Leg... There's no way the Rubico can match The Miter's Proc Rate...

Miter's got 40% Status Chance.... And Rubico has less... I don't know how much less but I'm pretty it's low enough to show a clear difference in Proc Rate....

I'm not saying it can, I'm saying that the same status mod will multiply the proc rates of both weapons by the same amount.

24 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

That's an External Site.... I'm talking about Slapping Rifle Aptitude on the Actual Weapon and Shooting it at Real Enemies... 

I mean you can verify this ingame as well. Whatever floats your boat.

[Lutesque]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not saying it can, I'm saying that the same status mod will multiply the proc rates of both weapons by the same amount.

Isn't that what Crit Mods do then ? What is it you're seeing that I'm not ?

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I mean you can verify this ingame as well. Whatever floats your boat.

I did.... The Miter benefits more for Rifle Aptitude then Rubico does.... Just like Rubico Benefits more from Point Strike Than the Miter Does....

It's the same thing as far as I can tell...

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Isn't that what Crit Mods do then ? What is it you're seeing that I'm not ?

I did.... The Miter benefits more for Rifle Aptitude then Rubico does.... Just like Rubico Benefits more from Point Strike Than the Miter Does....

It's the same thing as far as I can tell...

Do you want me to PM you to continue this? I'm happy to explain the game's mechanics but we're kinda spamming the thread.

[Aldain]

14 hours ago, Lolzster said:

the playerbase is NOT ready for this.

With all due respect, to hell with what the playerbase is ready for or not.

Warframe has been spinning out of control due to power creep for years, the longer DE puts off doing something the more and more deeply "mindless fun" becomes the ONLY thing worth playing the game for.

Eventually even those players will get sick of farming for the next iteration of the Kuva Bramma which they can dumbfire across the map and never be in any danger. The power creep is tearing down entire foundations to the point where the only things that shine are utterly broken like the Phantasma's status application capabilities.

[(NSW)Greybones]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

With all due respect, to hell with what the playerbase is ready for or not.

Warframe has been spinning out of control due to power creep for years, the longer DE puts off doing something the more and more deeply "mindless fun" becomes the ONLY thing worth playing the game for.

Eventually even those players will get sick of farming for the next iteration of the Kuva Bramma which they can dumbfire across the map and never be in any danger. The power creep is tearing down entire foundations to the point where the only things that shine are utterly broken like the Phantasma's status application capabilities.

Hear hear!

[Drachnyn]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

DE knows what they're doing.

This is the funniest thing you have ever posted. Got any other of those #good-jokes you wanna share with us?