How about toning down critical?

[TheArmchairThinker]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Armor scaling is the real problem and not Slash.

I find it suspicious on why you keep insisting that armor scaling is the real problem when slash is able to bypass armor, making heavy armor obsolete to all damage type but one. Even if armor scaling is toned down eventually it will be back to square one where anything other than slash will be nearly obsolete.

Changing slash to not being able to bypass armor through bleed DoT means heavy armor will be a high level obstacle, making debuff having bigger importance in your loadout or team to help DPS dealing with the enemies, not just toning down and still letting slash bypassing armor

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yes, it does give every weapon the potential to reach at least 75% Crit Chance. That's kinda the idea, since high crit weapons already can. It's only weapons with low crit that can't. And you can play with the numbers some: a +50%/+2.0x rate could work too, which would give most weapons a 2.6x damage multiplier from Vital Sense and Point Strike. But that might not give crit mods enough to compete with other damage mods on low-crit weapons, and high-crit weapons would need buffs to get back to where they are now. Two mods giving a 3.6x multiplier is fine within the game's current systems, since like I pointed out Serration and Heavy Caliber is already a 4.3x multiplier. Galvanized Chamber on its own is a 3.3x multiplier. It's also fine within the scheme of the other balancing ideas I've written about. The problem with the game's balance isn't the size of the multipliers, it's how many different multipliers there are that can be stacked.

And yes, I wasn't considering making crit mods not stack in my reply, because why should they? Adding that requirement doesn't really do anything, because people just use the one that's better. Because you get bigger numbers by diversifying your stat increases, builds already tend to have only one mod of a given stat so that one mod will either stay where it is or get swapped for the better one. We've already seen exactly this with Critical Delay recently usurping Point Strike in most cases. It's the same kind of result as nerfing mods: it doesn't do anything significant to the overall meta. There are better ways to go about it.

With all weapons being able to reach 75% crit chance, there's no reason to separate between status and crit weapons, all weapons will be the same and worse, weapons that are used to be a status focused weapons will be a hybrid which is considerably better than pure critical weapons. Toning down critical damage might take more effort, but you can make those that deal too much damage (Kuva Tonkor for example) has significantly lower critical damage, making it not a one button push AoE kill. Isn't that what you want?

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 hours ago, Wolfdoggie said:

How was this ever a thought?

maybe you would like it if your boss came up to you and was like; "how would you like less pay for all the work you've done?"

 

Guess I'm corrupted from those who keep saying this game needs nerf to make challenge and difficulty

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

This is the funniest thing you have ever posted. Got any other of those #good-jokes you wanna share with us?

Drachyn’s right, @(PSN)Madurai-Prime. It’s the players that know what DE’s doing; have you seen the amount of topics and posts made by players balancing DE’s game for them?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

This is the funniest thing you have ever posted. Got any other of those #good-jokes you wanna share with us?

Lol yea how about the joke where a unique and niche game grows and becomes more fun after 8 years, yet people say it's doomed unless it becomes like every other boring game.

Funniest joke of all. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Drachyn’s right, @(PSN)Madurai-Prime. It’s the players that know what DE’s doing; have you seen the amount of topics and posts made by players balancing DE’s game for them?

My favorites are:

"Let me pick what invigoration I want for any frame at any time."

"Here's 18 paragraphs explaining why Warframe should revert/nerf/get rid of every change that's been made the past 3 years because I can't handle pugs running ahead of me and taking muh kills."

"Yareli challenges my perceived masculinity problems and needs to be less kawaii."

"Unnerf the bramma and kuva Nukor changes, because "fun" and that's the only reason I can come up with."

[(NSW)Greybones]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

My favorites are:

"Let me pick what invigoration I want for any frame at any time."

"Here's 18 paragraphs explaining why Warframe should revert/nerf/get rid of every change that's been made the past 3 years because I can't handle pugs running ahead of me and taking muh kills."

"Yareli challenges my perceived masculinity problems and needs to be less kawaii."

"Unnerf the bramma and kuva Nukor changes, because "fun" and that's the only reason I can come up with."

It’s almost like the community is made up of a bunch of players, some who want the game to specifically cater to them and their principles, to hell with the consequences. However DE do, they do wrong, because of reasons.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s almost like the community is made up of a bunch of players, some who want the game to specifically cater to them and their principles, to hell with the consequences. However DE do, they do wrong, because of reasons.

Yea you give people an inch and they try to take a mile. 

Just because DE listens to some player feedback, some people think it means they're gonna implement everything and disregard their own actual goals for their own game. 

Typical first world bubble outlook: "I'm a customer so listen to me no matter how irrational I am."

I think they're the kinda people to tell a cop "I pay your salary so let me get out of this speeding ticket."

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea you give people an inch and they try to take a mile. 

Just because DE listens to some player feedback, some people think it means they're gonna implement everything and disregard their own actual goals for their own game. 

Typical first world bubble outlook: "I'm a customer so listen to me no matter how irrational I am."

I think they're the kinda people to tell a cop "I pay your salary so let me get out of this speeding ticket."

Well, you see, it’s because players have played a lot of games. And they’ve played a lot of Warframe. That means they know how it works, and how it should work. It should be designed around the highest capacity for us to turn off any mechanics, for the sake of skipping the damnable grind that plagues us.

Why not let us skip the grind without paying for anything, DE? Pretty uncool.

It should also force us to just barely scrape through. Justify our rise to the power levels we can attain by making it just sufficient to win a fight.

I have all these mods in my orbiter, but I only use like 8. Because why wouldn’t I? Justify my choice, DE.

This game needs to give us our choices. But force me into not using most of them.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Well, you see, it’s because players have played a lot of games. And they’ve played a lot of Warframe. That means they know how it works, and how it should work. It should be designed around the highest capacity for us to turn off any mechanics, for the sake of skipping the damnable grind that plagues us.

Why not let us skip the grind without paying for anything, DE? Pretty uncool.

It should also force us to just barely scrape through. Justify our rise to the power levels we can attain by making it just sufficient to win a fight.

I have all these mods in my orbiter, but I only use like 8. Because why wouldn’t I? Justify my choice, DE.

This game needs to give us our choices. But force me into not using most of them.

Okay wow, arrogant. No, buddy. Playing games doesn’t make you a better game designer. A lot of the best in the industry don’t even play games. Playing games makes you better at playing games. The principles of design, intelligence, drive, motivation, ingenuity, creativity these are things you need to be able to design something, specially something people have to feel.

 

If gaming had taught you anything about game design, you would’ve known not to say something so silly.

I repeat again, spending hundreds of hours in the front end of a game, the part specially curated for you that hundreds of people spent years of their lives making for you, tells you absolutely nothing about the back end of the game. Your emotional reactions to stimulus aren’t inherently valuable.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I find it suspicious on why you keep insisting that armor scaling is the real problem when slash is able to bypass armor, making heavy armor obsolete to all damage type but one. Even if armor scaling is toned down eventually it will be back to square one where anything other than slash will be nearly obsolete.

Changing slash to not being able to bypass armor through bleed DoT means heavy armor will be a high level obstacle, making debuff having bigger importance in your loadout or team to help DPS dealing with the enemies, not just toning down and still letting slash bypassing armor

Think about that one for a second.

We only care about Slash... Because it can bypass Armor. It's the fastest against Armor because it skips all the damage resistance. And Armor is important because it's the biggest source of enemy EHP. That's why Slash gets used so much. Before Viral and Heat usurped Corrosive, Corrosive was all we used for the same reason: Corrosive was the best way to bypass Armor.

So if Armor wasn't so hugely important to mod for, then Slash and other Armor-defeating damage types wouldn't be so much more powerful than others. They only have such an advantage because other types still have to deal with Armor. Even if Slash didn't bypass Armor and was just a weaker Toxin clone, all the other procs would still be garbage against the >99% DR late-game Armor provides and we'd still be using builds that are all Viral and Heat.

Speaking of Toxin, though, that's actually a good comparison. Toxin bypasses Shields but not Armor, Slash bypasses Armor but not Shields. So why don't we use Toxin more often? Maybe because Shields are so much weaker than Armor that no one bothers to actively defeat it.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With all weapons being able to reach 75% crit chance, there's no reason to separate between status and crit weapons, all weapons will be the same and worse, weapons that are used to be a status focused weapons will be a hybrid which is considerably better than pure critical weapons. Toning down critical damage might take more effort, but you can make those that deal too much damage (Kuva Tonkor for example) has significantly lower critical damage, making it not a one button push AoE kill. Isn't that what you want?

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there's already little separation between status and crit weapons. Look at all of the Kuva weapons, and Tenet weapons, the Vastilok, even the Ghoulsaw. Most of what DE puts out is within the 20-30% Hybrid territory. Hybrids are just about all DE makes, and just about all that people actually use, because hybrids are already considerably better than pure crit or pure status weapons. And most builds are already the same 6-7 Hybrid build mods: damage, multishot, crit, crit, 60/60s, maybe someone gets spicy and uses a 90, ooh how unique. And it's been like this for years.

Making Crit additive means that weaker weapons don't fall behind as much to stronger ones anymore, and yeah, that's what I want. Because if things are closer together, then DE can add content where the Kuva Tonkor isn't a one-shot AoE kill. And all the other weaker can work there, too. Which can't happen now because things are so far apart that of course they can't predict where to place content. No one can.

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It should also force us to just barely scrape through. Justify our rise to the power levels we can attain by making it just sufficient to win a fight.

I have all these mods in my orbiter, but I only use like 8. Because why wouldn’t I? Justify my choice, DE.

This game needs to give us our choices. But force me into not using most of them.

I mean, yeah. Batman is nothing without the Joker. Superman would be boring if he only beat the crap out of defenseless bank robbers all day. And guess what DE keeps adding? New villains and harder and harder pieces of content to counter the player. Arbitrations, Liches, Sisters, Railjack, Steel Path. Why do you think they keep adding these things if they just want to make an easy peasy pleasey-let-me-win-at-everything-with-no-effort game?

About choice, what choice? Are you really making a choice when you're allowed to choose everything? And how many choices are there in the game that never get chosen because they're so vastly overshadowed by the 8 mods and dozen weapons everyone uses?

[Slayer-.]

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Thought so

Classic Nullifiers spawned with 10 meter bubbles that could go through walls and ceilings, and had no weak point. Damage against their bubbles was gated at 600 damage. Ironically their bodies were (and still are) extremely weak, in a poorly-execute attempt at proper enemy design. Your options were to either waste ammo, or say goodbye to your buffs and kill them with one melee attack -- if they hadn't already stolen your buffs the instant they spawned, because they spawned with Max size bubbles that were not restrained by walls or closed doors. They could just spawn in a locker room with their bubbles clipping through the walls

Modern Nullifiers don't have any of these issues. They can shield their troops from a few bullets and they will nullify a Tenno who isn't paying attention, but they don't take entire magazines to bring down, they can't clip through walls anymore, and they have a weak point for players running sniper rifles. And they come in both melee and ranged now, to keep players on their toes

Sorry to burst your bubble ^{(pardon the pun)} but they still clip through walls floors and ceilings, not like they used to though the decrease in their bubble range helps a lot.

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

Lol yea how about the joke where a unique and niche game grows and becomes more fun after 8 years, yet people say it's doomed unless it becomes like every other boring game.

Funniest joke of all. 

DE being lucky they have no competition in the kind of game they are making does not mean they have a good idea of what they are doing but nice try.

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And most builds are already the same 6-7 Hybrid build mods: damage, multishot, crit, crit, 60/60s, maybe someone gets spicy and uses a 90, ooh how unique. And it's been like this for years.

I'd like to jump in on this bit simply because I'm of the opinion that the mod loadout stagnation stems from a lack of real diminishing returns on just unga-bungaing more damage into weapons as well as the lack of good hybrid mods (Things like Hammer Shot, Amalgam Serration etc.) which makes every single loadout painfully similar.

Personally, a thing I'd do is prevent slotting in more than one of the same element mod, no more stacking a 60/60 with an elemental mod of the same element, no double dipping would go a long way towards making "Smash all the damage in" not the gold standard for most weapons.

But I'm also the guy who thinks they should just outright remove Multishot or at the very least make it more limited for what it can be used on so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[(NSW)Greybones]

33 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

About choice, what choice? Are you really making a choice when you're allowed to choose everything? And how many choices are there in the game that never get chosen because they're so vastly overshadowed by the 8 mods and dozen weapons everyone uses?

Those choices are chosen because either a.) the player enjoys feeling overpowered, or b.) the player is grinding fast. Maybe c.) the player is convinced that this is how the game is meant to be.

Not everyone neatly falls strictly into those categories in terms of what they’re searching for in this game. And there are plenty of alternatives to choose from, because that’s what keeps getting added

[PublikDomain]

28 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Those choices are chosen because either a.) the player enjoys feeling overpowered, or b.) the player is grinding fast. Maybe c.) the player is convinced that this is how the game is meant to be.

Not everyone neatly falls strictly into those categories in terms of what they’re searching for in this game. And there are plenty of alternatives to choose from, because that’s what keeps getting added

And that kinda hints at the larger problem. Some players choose only power. Some players don't. Some players use wacky builds. Some follow the meta. Some can recite damage formulas by heart, some don't even know there is a formula. Which is fine on its own, different people have different experiences.

But when players are so different and so unpredictable and so inconsistent, how can new content be balanced for success? Picking a difficulty off a dart board clearly isn't working. Most of the time content releases and immediately fails and has to be adjusted because there's no right answer for what "balanced" means. We've seen this happen over and over again.

Maybe being unable to release new content and have it be successful without requiring an immediate rework is a bad development cycle? Maybe choosing between power and variety is a bad choice to have players make? Maybe being powerful should be the default and not require adherence to the same 6-7 mods in the same boring builds? Maybe all of the toys the game lets you choose from should be worth choosing? Yeah there's plenty of alternatives to choose from, but why should most of them continue to suck?

[(NSW)Greybones]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And that kinda hints at the larger problem. Some players choose only power. Some players don't. Some players use wacky builds. Some follow the meta. Some can recite damage formulas by heart, some don't even know there is a formula. Which is fine on its own, different people have different experiences.

But when players are so different and so unpredictable and so inconsistent, how can new content be balanced for success? Picking a difficulty off a dart board clearly isn't working. Most of the time content releases and immediately fails and has to be adjusted because there's no right answer for what "balanced" means. We've seen this happen over and over again.

Maybe being unable to release new content and have it be successful without requiring an immediate rework is a bad development cycle? Maybe choosing between power and variety is a bad choice to have players make? Maybe being powerful should be the default and not require adherence to the same 6-7 mods in the same boring builds? Maybe all of the toys the game lets you choose from should be worth choosing? Yeah there's plenty of alternatives to choose from, but why should most of them continue to suck?

You are looking for a macro balance, something that takes into consideration everything we as players can obtain. There’s a little of that; some content requires equipping a Serration before we can even take part.

DE balance on a micro level too in the mission. We get locked into what we take into the mission, and that determines how easy or hard it is.

The META? Nothing can stand against it. But don’t use the meta and a player experiences a variety of difficulty level.

Warframe’s difficulty is meant to be determined by the player, and as we progress we unlock more options to customise the difficulty. For all your claims that it’s not your job to balance DE’s game for them, you’re really taking it into your hands to do so. DE have already balanced the game and will continue to adjust it, but they’re using a metric you are refusing to acknowledge

[Tesseract7777]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

My favorites are:

"Let me pick what invigoration I want for any frame at any time."

"Here's 18 paragraphs explaining why Warframe should revert/nerf/get rid of every change that's been made the past 3 years because I can't handle pugs running ahead of me and taking muh kills."

"Yareli challenges my perceived masculinity problems and needs to be less kawaii."

"Unnerf the bramma and kuva Nukor changes, because "fun" and that's the only reason I can come up with."

Another laugh/cry for every sentence lol.

So much funny lol. Seriously though if I had a nickel for every time........... : ) 

[PublikDomain]

49 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Warframe’s difficulty is meant to be determined by the player, and as we progress we unlock more options to customise the difficulty.

And if that were true, why would DE nerf the Catchmoon or Bramma or Nukor or Covert Lethality or Maiming Strike or the Xoris or the Tonkor or the Simulor or Protective Dash or blunder through Vivergate or add Khora's Whipclaw LoS because of Steel Path farming or nerf melee just recently or nerf abilities or nerf Railjack enemies or the Wolf or Steel Path or remove Venari's healing (because it could heal an objective for 50 whole hp/sec)? Why would they rework frames or buff guns or buff melee or buff underperforming mods or just recently* remove Sentient status immunity? Why would they keep trying to make "difficult" content year after year? Why would Scott and Pablo and Steve talk about balance and buffs and nerfs and making the game intrinsically rewarding? If they don't care about balancing why would they say things like this:

Quote

We have been heads down several days on discussions - and ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types. We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option. The decision to not allow heals to work on these defensive targets is an old one, and it arose from Trinity's Blessing. The fact that it was a 100% heal meant that it trivialized any Defense mission. Since then we have been blocking heal on most abilities (not super consistently) without reflecting back on the original design decision.

If the player was expected to balance everything themselves, why would DE need to step in and make sure more options are viable? There's no need to nerf the Nukor or buff objective healing if players can just choose when they want to use them, right? And yet they balance anyways.

49 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

For all your claims that it’s not your job to balance DE’s game for them, you’re really taking it into your hands to do so. DE have already balanced the game and will continue to adjust it, but they’re using a metric you are refusing to acknowledge

Nah, I just talk about balance because it's something I'm passionate about. I love this game and I love thinking and arguing about it. I'd find things to talk about improving even if there was nothing left to improve.

And I see the metric they're using, and usually I agree with it - especially when it comes to nerfs. The times I disagree are only when they make the game even easier than it already is or when they're being knee-jerky and causing more problems than they fix. Or, when they keep tip-toeing around the "muh power fantasy" crowd out of fear of reprisal.

[Tesseract7777]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Lol yea how about the joke where a unique and niche game grows and becomes more fun after 8 years, yet people say it's doomed unless it becomes like every other boring game.

Funniest joke of all. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And if that were true, why would DE nerf the Catchmoon or Bramma or Nukor or Covert Lethality or Maiming Strike or the Xoris or the Tonkor or the Simulor or Protective Dash or blunder through Vivergate or add Khora's Whipclaw LoS because of Steel Path farming or nerf melee just recently or nerf abilities or nerf Railjack enemies or the Wolf or Steel Path or remove Venari's healing (because it could heal an objective for 50 whole hp/sec)? Why would they rework frames or buff guns or buff melee or buff underperforming mods or just recently* remove Sentient status immunity? Why would they keep trying to make "difficult" content year after year? Why would Scott and Pablo and Steve talk about balance and buffs and nerfs and making the game intrinsically rewarding? If they don't care about balancing why would they say things like this:

If the player was expected to balance everything themselves, why would DE need to step in and make sure more options are viable? There's no need to nerf the Nukor or buff objective healing if players can just choose when they want to use them, right? And yet they balance anyways.

We the players aren’t balancing the fight, we are choosing the difficulty. There is a difference, and that difference is that we take the tools available to us and combine them in the ways we want. We can’t equip more than one Serration or same element mod or Vitality because we aren’t meant to think “I need X amount of damage, and I can get it through either 3 Serrations or a Serration and an Element”. We equip the Serration if we need more direct damage, we equip the Crit mod if we want to enhance the weapon’s crit. We aren’t supposed to discard mods because we’re meant to have access to them any time we want to start a mission, but that doesn’t mean that we’re determining what specific configuration of enemy and resistances we’re going to fight or the spawn rates or how a weapon with a Hornet Strike compares to a weapon with Serration.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

not like they used to though

Indeed, that is the key

They literally can't clip through ceilings, not all the way (the bubbles measure the distance to the ceiling as part of their size calculation), and while they might skirt walls a little bit we're not getting the situation with old Nullifiers where you could see their bubbles springing into existence when they spawned on the other side of a door

[PublikDomain]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

We the players aren’t balancing the fight, we are choosing the difficulty.

If we're choosing the difficulty, then we're choosing to what standard we're balancing ourselves to, no? If I choose to make things easy, I'm choosing a game balance where I'm above the content. If I choose to make things hard, I'm choosing a game balance where I'm below the content. Is there a real distinction between the two?

And if I choose to make things easy, but you choose to make things hard, then how are we expected to play the same mission together? If you're trying to choose a high difficulty and I'm rocketing through the map instagibbing 10k enemies/hr then I don't think you're gonna be left with all that much game to play...

33 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

We can’t equip more than one Serration or same element mod or Vitality because we aren’t meant to think “I need X amount of damage, and I can get it through either 3 Serrations or a Serration and an Element”. We equip the Serration if we need more direct damage, we equip the Crit mod if we want to enhance the weapon’s crit. We aren’t supposed to discard mods because we’re meant to have access to them any time we want to start a mission, but that doesn’t mean that we’re determining what specific configuration of enemy and resistances we’re going to fight or the spawn rates or how a weapon with a Hornet Strike compares to a weapon with Serration.

I'm not sure I really see where what you're getting at tbh. Discarding mods?

[Slayer-.]

9 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Indeed, that is the key

They literally can't clip through ceilings, not all the way (the bubbles measure the distance to the ceiling as part of their size calculation), and while they might skirt walls a little bit we're not getting the situation with old Nullifiers where you could see their bubbles springing into existence when they spawned on the other side of a door

Nothing worse than those insta bubbles, makes me do this if I have the wrong Warframe equipped on a high mission level just to get outside their range.   Most times I just enter the bubble and shootem in the face. 

[George_PPS]

On 2021-09-16 at 6:57 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

With what I heard about how critical focused weapons able to deal more damage, and how easy to increase your critical damage to deal insane amount of damage (up to 8.4x with soma prime using vital sense and hammer shot), maybe you guys would like it if critical damage is made far lower to make it not too far outperforming pure damage/status weapons

For the mods, you have 3 possible mods on primary for example
- Vital sense (+120% critical damage)
- Hammer shot (+60% critical damage, +80% status chance)
- Bladed rounds (+120% critical damage when aiming after a kill for 9 seconds)

To make critical damage not seeing too high of increase, some changes I've been thinking
- Make all of them not available for stacking
- Reduced vital sense increase (120% -> 60%)
- Reduced hammer shot increase (60% -> 40%)
- Reduced bladed rounds increase (120% -> 80%)

OR

Change them to be additive instead
- Vital sense (+0.4x)
- Hammer shot (+0.3x)
- Bladed Rounds (+0.5x)

Then, for base critical damage itself, all weapons will get lower base from 1.25x - 1.4x, making them still able to deal more damage but not at such a huge margin that it makes non critical weapons left far behind

If you want a softer game, you can always equip fewer mods or rank them up just half way, All your concerns solved. Most players enjoy and are coming back for the buffs. Did you see how player base dropped continuously from 2018-2020? Don't try to destroy this game. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

Just now, George_PPS said:

If you want a softer game, you can always equip fewer mods or rank them up just half way, All your concerns solved. Most players enjoy and are coming back for the buffs. Did you see how player base dropped continuously from 2018-2020? Don't try to destroy this game. 

tell that to those who want the game to be balanced, I'm just mucking around here