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How about toning down critical?


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WEIRD. You are just MR1 and 2 HOURS into the game, how do you know all of these? I doubt you even have any of these mods! Are you violating EULA to create this account so you can cheat or make such UNPOPULAR post? Use your real account! 

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41 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If we're choosing the difficulty, then we're choosing to what standard we're balancing ourselves to, no? If I choose to make things easy, I'm choosing a game balance where I'm above the content. If I choose to make things hard, I'm choosing a game balance where I'm below the content. Is there a real distinction between the two?

And if I choose to make things easy, but you choose to make things hard, then how are we expected to play the same mission together? If you're trying to choose a high difficulty and I'm rocketing through the map instagibbing 10k enemies/hr then I don't think you're gonna be left with all that much game to play...

I'm not sure I really see where what you're getting at tbh. Discarding mods?

It’s true that the word “Balance” is kind of overloaded. I was thinking something like “Player balance” versus “Game balance” might distinguish the two? We as players may balance whether our missions are easy or hard  for us (Player balance), but we can’t balance the core numbers of our equipment (Game balance). And adjusting those core numbers has cascading effects up through the chain of mods we may equip, which I expect was part of the consideration for many of those instances you were referring to where DE nerfed or buffed things.

And yes, at the moment our ability to choose our difficulty has effects for anyone who joins us in multiplayer. I’m betting that you’re thinking of your thing where we shouldn’t be able to be bothered by increases in strength, but should just have options available to us, which in turn would mean that as we match with each other, the chances of being paired with a demigod would not be a concern (since we’re all on the same level). I have questions regarding how other aspects of the concept would work, but I can say that technically, it would solve the matchmaking problem in a way.

And yeah, the thought of discarding mods is kind of blasphemy, but it was secondary concern to the idea that we have access to all of our mods until we jump into a mission, and that from what we have available we customise the fight to our liking while being unable to affect core game things (like spawnrates)

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
added a little more
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19 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Reminds me of the stropha nerf post i wanted to make, thanks!

Hey while you're at it can you also grab me a nerf for the Phantasma?

Something in the "max cap on status effects" isle would do.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

Time to nerf everything 4.png

 

Honestly if we could just get the damage range down from 1 to 1 trillion to something like 1 to 100,000 it would be a start.

The sheer range of damage potential is the problem, it makes more and more situations with things like adaptive DR and status/ability immunity all but required for anything to be "hard".

Seriously, just picture Steel Path, but with universal status and ability immunity, it wouldn't shock me if that was where DE had to eventually go because of how insane things are.

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15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It doesn't matter what numbers you use, the math is the same. Status scales the same regardless of base stats. This is the same as adding Damage, Multishot, Fire Rate, Faction Damage, Elemental/IPS damage, buffs, etc. All of these stats add the same multiplier no matter what weapon they're used on. Crit is one of the only ones that's different, where higher base crit stats produce a higher multiplier, not the same multiplier.

But you are very wrong in your thinking, because you ignore the fact that all other stats on a weapon also effectively impact how much you get out of your status chance. Number of procs per second is no different than avaraging out number of crits. Both then rely on other stats that are based on the weapon. 

If you increase your proc chance from 5 to 25% you will apply a status as often as you crit with a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% crit. Then depending on the status that proc also relies on the crit of a weapon aswell as the crit damage and base damage, just as crit relies on crit damage, status and base damage to arrive at the final value of increased crit chance on the weapon.

For status it is dependant on the individual statuses available on the weapon. For all of them though, a weapon with higher speed will always benefit more since it will reach the cap faster or stack damage faster, reaching its potential in a shorter amount of time.

You just cant look at status chance as its own isolated stat while treating crit differently since both rely on other stats to work. The chance only decides how often those other stats come into play together. A crit occuring is just another proc, nothing else.

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11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you are very wrong in your thinking, because you ignore the fact that all other stats on a weapon also effectively impact how much you get out of your status chance. Number of procs per second is no different than avaraging out number of crits. Both then rely on other stats that are based on the weapon

Now that makes sense to me...

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

If you increase your proc chance from 5 to 25% you will apply a status as often as you crit with a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% crit. Then depending on the status that proc also relies on the crit of a weapon aswell as the crit damage and base damage, just as crit relies on crit damage, status and base damage to arrive at the final value of increased crit chance on the weapon

That's 2 for 2.... Can I get a 3rd ? 😁

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You just cant look at status chance as its own isolated stat while treating crit differently since both rely on other stats to work. The chance only decides how often those other stats come into play together. A crit occuring is just another proc, nothing else.

And that's 3 for 3 !!! ❤️

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Critically based weapons are a good choice, especially for beginners, to keep up with experienced players. If you do what you suggest here, beginners no longer have a chance to keep up in the game. The melee nerf has already made enough starter melee weapons unusable. So why make even more weapons unusable? Warframe has enough weapons that are useless and don't need any more. Primary and secondary need a buff and no mods.

The melee nerf should be reversed and you should finally adjust the weapons to the melee.

Ninjas play free and not guners play free.

Translated by Google!

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1 hour ago, Sl4ught3r777 said:

i guess it would be great only if they nerf health, armor and shield by like 45% for every enemies.

The point of fixing the absurd stacking damage multipliers is specifically to reduce DE's need to stack enemies with 99% Damage Reduction Armor or millions of EHP worth of Shields. 

Every time someone suggests bringing the numbers down to a manageable level, the response from part of the community is always, without fail:
"But muh numbers / but muh fun!"

Q: Why do Steel Path enemies have 200% more HP/Armor/Shield? 
A: Because players can stack so many modifiers and multipliers together that we reach millions of damage fairly easily. 

Q: Why do Liches, Sisters and many bosses have awkward damage caps?
A: Because if they didn't, players would absolutely trivialize those encounters into a one shot 'blink and you miss it' situation. 

DE is forced to put awkward damage gating mechanics into boss fights such that we spend more time throwing objects at the boss instead of actually fighting it.

The game needs our damage output at the top end brought back into sensible realms in order to allow them to be more creative with bosses and enemy units in general. 
Ask yourself, Do Stances REALLY need to just have 200 - 1000% modifiers on combos? All it does is inflate the numbers.
Do we really need Frames like Chroma to achieve +1000% damage dealt, or Mirage with similar numbers on Eclipse or Rhino with his Roar?
All it does is make DE inflate the EHP on enemies to compensate.

If DE peeled back all the excessive modifiers they could then give us Grineer Armor that wasn't just 99% DR and Bosses with fun, engaging mechanics without worrying about them being deleted if we so much as sneeze in  their direction. 

Crit is just the biggest source of damage multiplication we have. 

tl:dr i guess, By fixing the runaway top end power of our weapons, DE can scale back the absurd mechanics put in place specifically to combat that high end damage, which has the side effect of bringing currently underperforming weapons up to a level that allows them to not just be wet noodles and pea shooters. 

Edited by Reitrix
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12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Guess I'm corrupted from those who keep saying this game needs nerf to make challenge and difficulty

No what you are is a self admitted child, behaving in a way that in formal debate is known as self dehumanizing. If you can not argue in the fashion of reasoned adults you do not get a seat at the discussion. Acting like a yapping kubra pup while trying to claim you have some validity shames the Lotus that raised you. You bring shame to the Way and all tenno and belong to the Shadow Stalkers cult clearly.

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53 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

The point of fixing the absurd stacking damage multipliers is specifically to reduce DE's need to stack enemies with 99% Damage Reduction Armor or millions of EHP worth of Shields. 

Every time someone suggests bringing the numbers down to a manageable level, the response from part of the community is always, without fail:
"But muh numbers / but muh fun!"

Q: Why do Steel Path enemies have 200% more HP/Armor/Shield? 
A: Because players can stack so many modifiers and multipliers together that we reach millions of damage fairly easily. 

Q: Why do Liches, Sisters and many bosses have awkward damage caps?
A: Because if they didn't, players would absolutely trivialize those encounters into a one shot 'blink and you miss it' situation. 

DE is forced to put awkward damage gating mechanics into boss fights such that we spend more time throwing objects at the boss instead of actually fighting it.

The game needs our damage output at the top end brought back into sensible realms in order to allow them to be more creative with bosses and enemy units in general. 
Ask yourself, Do Stances REALLY need to just have 200 - 1000% modifiers on combos? All it does is inflate the numbers.
Do we really need Frames like Chroma to achieve +1000% damage dealt, or Mirage with similar numbers on Eclipse or Rhino with his Roar?
All it does is make DE inflate the EHP on enemies to compensate.

If DE peeled back all the excessive modifiers they could then give us Grineer Armor that wasn't just 99% DR and Bosses with fun, engaging mechanics without worrying about them being deleted if we so much as sneeze in  their direction. 

Crit is just the biggest source of damage multiplication we have. 

tl:dr i guess, By fixing the runaway top end power of our weapons, DE can scale back the absurd mechanics put in place specifically to combat that high end damage, which has the side effect of bringing currently underperforming weapons up to a level that allows them to not just be wet noodles and pea shooters. 

Nope the point of my post was everything is perfect ,for those who can buy top rolled rivens for them 120 % cd is nothing but for them who can;t that's a lifesaver and mobs are everywhere you do not time to constant shoot 1 guy where others are attacking you . In my opinion we should have galnanized cc, cd and fire rate mod as well

 

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1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Crit is just the biggest source of damage multiplication we have. 
 

Though I agree Warframe has too many multipliers, Crit is just one small piece of the multiplication problem.

Take an above average crit weapon with Base crit chance of 30% and multiplier of 2.0x.

1*0.7+2*0.3=1.3

Add Vital Sense and Point Strike to raise Crit chance to 75% and Crit multiplier to 4.4x.

1*0.25+4.4*0.75=3.55

Damage increase factor:

3.55/1.3=2.73 or +173% damage

which is in line with other mods for the cost of 2 slots. The only issue is that this +173% for 2 slots is multiplicative with +165% Serration for 1 slot, +180% of 2 Elements for 2 slots, +90% of Multi-shot for 1 slot, +55% of Faction Damage for 1 slot, +325% of Viral at max stacks, etc.....

Status is stronger than Crit, which is why we have enemies with Status Immunity instead of Crit Immunity. Status only seems underwhelming because weapons don't need much Status % to reach the 10 cap for the maximum benefit. A Crit weapon only needs passable Status % to be labeled a hybrid.

Layers of armor, damage caps, status immunity, invincibility phases, damage attenuation are just damage dividers on the enemy end to blunt our damage multipliers.

Before the Base Damage arcanes were added, I suggested that a lot of multiplicative interactions should be changed to additive just like how Condition Overload was made additive with Pressure Point.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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38 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Though I agree Warframe has too many multipliers, Crit is just one small piece of the multiplication problem.

Take an above average crit weapon with Base crit chance of 30% and multiplier of 2.0x.

1*0.7+2*0.3=1.3

Add Vital Sense and Point Strike to raise Crit chance to 75% and Crit multiplier to 4.4x.

1*0.25+4.4*0.75=3.55

Damage increase factor:

3.55/1.3=2.73 or +173% damage

which is in line with other mods for the cost of 2 slots. The only issue is that this +173% for 2 slots is multiplicative with +165% Serration for 1 slot, +180% of 2 Elements for 2 slots, +90% of Multi-shot for 1 slot, +55% of Faction Damage for 1 slot, +325% of Viral at max stacks, etc.....

Status is stronger than Crit, which is why we have enemies with Status Immunity instead of Crit Immunity. Status only seems underwhelming because weapons don't need much Status % to reach the 10 cap for the maximum benefit. A Crit weapon only needs passable Status % to be labeled a hybrid.

Layers of armor, damage caps, status immunity, invincibility phases, damage attenuation are just damage dividers on the enemy end to blunt our damage multipliers.

Before the Base Damage arcanes were added, I suggested that a lot of multiplicative interactions should be changed to additive just like how Condition Overload was made additive with Pressure Point.

 

You call it a small part of the problem, However, with some simple testing with my Shedu against a level 155 Charger shows a rather different picture. 
To elaborate, A non crit from my Shedu which has a listed damage per shot of 900 with an 8.6x crit modifier resulted 420 Electricity and 388 Heat, dealing about 5% of the total HP of the Charger, which at level 155 is about 10k. 
A follow-up shot resulted in a crit (With no viral stacks) of 8060 and 3322. Killing it instantly. 

Thats why i say that Crit is simply the biggest damage multiplier we have. It takes our base damage and then doubles, triples or quintuples that damage. Or in Rubico's case, multiplies the damage of the shot by 11x before you even add in headshot multipliers or its scoped boost. 

DE needs to do something about ALL the modifiers, But Crit is the one that will result in the most noticeable reduction. 

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57 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

You call it a small part of the problem, However, with some simple testing with my Shedu against a level 155 Charger shows a rather different picture. 
To elaborate, A non crit from my Shedu which has a listed damage per shot of 900 with an 8.6x crit modifier resulted 420 Electricity and 388 Heat, dealing about 5% of the total HP of the Charger, which at level 155 is about 10k. 
A follow-up shot resulted in a crit (With no viral stacks) of 8060 and 3322. Killing it instantly. 

Thats why i say that Crit is simply the biggest damage multiplier we have. It takes our base damage and then doubles, triples or quintuples that damage. Or in Rubico's case, multiplies the damage of the shot by 11x before you even add in headshot multipliers or its scoped boost. 

DE needs to do something about ALL the modifiers, But Crit is the one that will result in the most noticeable reduction. 

When a weapon built for Crit fails to land a Crit, for that one shot, 2-3 mod slots on that weapon are essentially doing nothing.

Comparing a crit hit and non-crit hit on a crit modded weapon is comparing a fully modded weapon to an unfinished build.

A better comparison would between the damage of a crit hit when crit modded and a non-crit hit on the same weapon with a pure damage build instead.

Crit operates under the same rules of opportunity costs just like Base Damage. Getting over 100% Critical Chance and a good Crit Multiplier doesn't come cheap in terms of mod slot investment.

Crit Multiplier = (Crit Tier * (Modded Crit Multiplier -1))

With a standard modded Crit Multiplier of 4.4x.

Yellow Crit = 4.4x or +340% Damage, +340% Relative to White Damage

Orange Crit = 7.8x or +680% Damage, +77% Relative to Yellow Crit

Red Crit = 11.2x or + 1020% Damage, +43.5% Relative to Orange Crit

Each Crit tier yields lower relative returns, just like how stacking more Base Damage yields lower relative returns. 

If you can use an extra mod slot to push your Orange Crits into Red territory, you would get more value out of that mod slot by slotting in a +55% Primed Faction mod.

Of course, this is just opportunity costs. Stacking additional Crit continues to increase damage linearly.

Status effects like Viral have actual diminishing returns with lower increases after the 1st proc and an actual cap.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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8 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s true that the word “Balance” is kind of overloaded. I was thinking something like “Player balance” versus “Game balance” might distinguish the two? We as players may balance whether our missions are easy or hard  for us (Player balance), but we can’t balance the core numbers of our equipment (Game balance). And adjusting those core numbers has cascading effects up through the chain of mods we may equip, which I expect was part of the consideration for many of those instances you were referring to where DE nerfed or buffed things.

And yes, at the moment our ability to choose our difficulty has effects for anyone who joins us in multiplayer. I’m betting that you’re thinking of your thing where we shouldn’t be able to be bothered by increases in strength, but should just have options available to us, which in turn would mean that as we match with each other, the chances of being paired with a demigod would not be a concern (since we’re all on the same level). I have questions regarding how other aspects of the concept would work, but I can say that technically, it would solve the matchmaking problem in a way.

And yeah, the thought of discarding mods is kind of blasphemy, but it was secondary concern to the idea that we have access to all of our mods until we jump into a mission, and that from what we have available we customise the fight to our liking while being unable to affect core game things (like spawnrates)

I'm not sure if "player balance" and "game balance" are really distinct, though. They're both sides of the same spinning coin. If either side is out of line then the coin folds and stops spinning. It doesn't matter what numbers are chosen for "game balance" if the "player balance" side swings around randomly across a huge range. Like Aldain says:

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

Honestly if we could just get the damage range down from 1 to 1 trillion to something like 1 to 100,000 it would be a start.

 

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you are very wrong in your thinking, because you ignore the fact that all other stats on a weapon also effectively impact how much you get out of your status chance. Number of procs per second is no different than avaraging out number of crits. Both then rely on other stats that are based on the weapon. 

If you increase your proc chance from 5 to 25% you will apply a status as often as you crit with a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% crit. Then depending on the status that proc also relies on the crit of a weapon aswell as the crit damage and base damage, just as crit relies on crit damage, status and base damage to arrive at the final value of increased crit chance on the weapon.

For status it is dependant on the individual statuses available on the weapon. For all of them though, a weapon with higher speed will always benefit more since it will reach the cap faster or stack damage faster, reaching its potential in a shorter amount of time.

You just cant look at status chance as its own isolated stat while treating crit differently since both rely on other stats to work. The chance only decides how often those other stats come into play together. A crit occuring is just another proc, nothing else.

Of course I'm ignoring that. Because it doesn't matter. It still doesn't matter, just like it didn't matter the last time we argued about this.

Yes, increasing your Status Chance from 5 to 25% will make you proc a Status Effect as often as a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% Crit Chance crits, but if you actually do the math then you'll quickly realize that going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance means different things for different weapons. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 1.5x Crit Damage is a 1.09x damage increase. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 2.5x Crit Damage is a 1.27x damage increase.

Meanwhile, going from 5% to 25% Status Chance is a 5x increase in the number of procs over a timespan, which means 5x more damage-dealing procs occurring resulting in 5x more damage coming from those procs and arriving at the 10-proc cap 5x faster. And this is true for every weapon you add that hypothetical +400% Status Chance mod to. Status Chance does the same thing even on different weapons, just like all the other damage stat types but Crit.

Go to overframe and pick two weapons. Doesn't matter what they are.

Add the same pure Status mod to both and calculate the increase in procs/sec. How many more times do they both proc Status?

Then add the same Damage mod to both and calculate the increase in damage/sec. How many more times damage do they each deal?

Now add the same Crit Chance and Crit Damage mod to both and calculate the increase in damage/sec. How many more times damage do they each deal?

Are the multipliers to Status and Damage and Crit the same on both weapons?

Edited by PublikDomain
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Here is a thought? If you do not like the crit mods do not use them.

I am not a fan of the boom boom weapons, but I do not come to the forums creating posts trying to take the toys away from the people who do like them I just do not use them.

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20 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

When a weapon built for Crit fails to land a Crit, for that one shot, 2-3 mod slots on that weapon are essentially doing nothing.

And it's the most annoying thing in the world... Atleast for me it is... Doesn't seem to bother other players though...

16 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, increasing your Status Chance from 5 to 25% will make you proc a Status Effect as often as a weapon that goes from 5 to 25% Crit Chance crits, but if you actually do the math then you'll quickly realize that going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance means different things for different weapons. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 1.5x Crit Damage is a 1.09x damage increase. Going from 5 to 25% Crit Chance on a weapon with 2.5x Crit Damage is a 1.27x damage increase.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary here... The weapon with the higher Crit Multiplier deals more damage... Makes sense... Assuming it actually does Crit....

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Meanwhile, going from 5% to 25% Status Chance is a 5x increase in the number of procs over a timespan, which means 5x more damage-dealing procs occurring resulting in 5x more damage coming from those procs and arriving at the 10-proc cap 5x faster. And this is true for every weapon you add that hypothetical +400% Status Chance mod to. Status Chance does the same thing even on different weapons, just like all the other damage stat types but Crit.

Didn't Crit Chance do the exact samething in your own Previous Example ? 🤔

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

Go to overframe and pick two weapons. Doesn't matter what they are.

Add the same pure Status mod to both and calculate the increase in procs/sec. How many more times do they both proc Status?

I don't trust Anything that Averages out Math that is binary in Actual Scenarios.... Sorry but a weapon either Crits or it doesn't... And in practical scenarios Crit seems to be working the same way as everything else...

 

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https://imgur.com/a/1oqRopU

his profile  , I think he has other accounts

10 hours ago, George_PPS said:

奇怪的。你只是 MR1 和 2 HOURS 進入遊戲,你是怎麼知道所有這些的?我懷疑你甚至有這些模組!您是否違反 EULA 創建此帳戶,以便您可以欺騙或發布此類不受歡迎的帖子?使用您的真實賬戶! 

 

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53 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

When a weapon built for Crit fails to land a Crit, for that one shot, 2-3 mod slots on that weapon are essentially doing nothing.

Comparing a crit hit and non-crit hit on a crit modded weapon is comparing a fully modded weapon to an unfinished build.

A better comparison would between the damage of a crit hit when crit modded and a non-crit hit on the same weapon with a pure damage build instead.

Crit operates under the same rules of opportunity costs just like Base Damage. Getting over 100% Critical Chance and a good Crit Multiplier doesn't come cheap in terms of mod slot investment.

Crit Multiplier = (Crit Tier * (Modded Crit Multiplier -1))

With a standard modded Crit Multiplier of 4.4x.

Yellow Crit = 4.4x or +340% Damage, +340% Relative to White Damage

Orange Crit = 7.8x or +680% Damage, +77% Relative to Yellow Crit

Red Crit = 11.2x or + 1020% Damage, +43.5% Relative to Orange Crit

Each Crit tier yields lower relative returns, just like how stacking more Base Damage yields lower relative returns. 

If you can use an extra mod slot to push your Orange Crits into Red territory, you would get more value out of that mod slot by slotting in a +55% Primed Faction mod.

Of course, this is just opportunity costs. Stacking additional Crit continues to increase damage linearly.

Status effects like Viral have actual diminishing returns with lower increases after the 1st proc and an actual cap.

 

You've missed the point. 
I could swap the Crit Mods for Status ones (CC is 25 while Status is 23 so it can built either way) with no impact to the base damage and in no circumstance is the increased Status Chance in this scenario going to compete against the Crit setup. 
If you want to do good Status damage, you take a Crit based weapon. Which is just plain backwards. 

In the scenario of my Shedu being built for Status rather than crit, It would would take multiple shots fired to stack up Viral and DoT effects in an attempt to get closer to the damage offered by crit. 
Meanwhile the crit build simply deletes the target in one shot. 

To put it another way, Kuva Nukor in maximum Status chance mode can apply a ridiculous number of Heat stacks to a target extremely quickly. 
But which kills the victim faster, the accumulated DoTs being boosted by Viral stacks or .. Building the Nukor for Crit and letting the monstrous Crit Multiplier outright kill it's victim in half the time?
Despite that the Nukor is obviously not a crit weapon, By abusing crit multipliers it becomes a more effective weapon than building it for Status. 

Fixing Crit Multipliers alone wont fix the issue of damage in general, But the difference Crit makes in damage dealt is a lot higher than you give it credit for. 

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37 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The weapon with the higher Crit Multiplier deals more damage... Makes sense... Assuming it actually does Crit....

Right, but it deals more more damage. lol. I know it's a bit confusing.

It's like you put a dollar into a vending machine to get a Snickers. If you put in a dollar bill, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with a credit card, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with a debit card, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with quarters and dimes, you get one Snickers. But if you put in a dollar with a $1 coin, you get two Snickers. Or half of a Snickers. Or just the wrapper. Or five Snickers. It depends on the vending machine. All the other payment methods get you the same one Snickers per dollar except for $1 coins.

It's the same with stats. If you put in 100% Status Chance, you get twice as many procs and reach cap twice as fast. If you put in 100% Fire Rate, you get twice as many procs and twice as much damage. If you put in 100% Damage, you get twice as much damage. If you put in 100% Multishot, you get twice as much damage and twice as many procs. But if you put in 100% Crit Chance, sure you crit twice as often. If you put in 100% Crit Damage, sure you crit twice as hard. But Crits are just damage, and over time the amount of damage you actually deal from them will depend heavily on the base stats. All of the other stats give you the same multiplicative increase regardless of base stats except for Crit Chance/Damage, which give you a different multiplicative increase depending on the weapon.

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On 2021/9/17 at AM9點57分, TheArmchairThinker said:

根據我聽說的關鍵聚焦武器如何能夠造成更多傷害,以及增加關鍵傷害以造成瘋狂傷害是多麼容易(使用生命感知和錘擊射擊,使用 Soma Prime 高達 8.4 倍),也許你們會喜歡如果暴擊傷害遠低於純粹的傷害/狀態武器

對於模組,你有 3 個可能的模組,例如
- 生命感(+120% 暴擊傷害)
- 錘擊(+60% 暴擊傷害,+80% 觸發機率)
- 刀片彈(瞄準時 +120% 暴擊傷害)擊殺9秒後)

為了讓暴擊傷害不會增加太高,我一直在考慮一些變化
- 使所有這些都無法疊加
- 減少生命感增加(120% - > 60%)
- 減少錘擊增加(60% - > 40%)
- 減少刀片子彈增加 (120% -> 80%)

或者

將它們改為可加性
-
生命力 (+0.4x)
-錘擊 (+0.3x) - 刀片 (+0.5x)

然後,對於基礎暴擊傷害本身,所有武器的基礎都會從 1.25 倍到 1.4 倍降低,使它們仍然能夠造成更多傷害,但幅度不會太大,以至於非暴擊武器被遠遠甩在後面

I think MK-1 weapon perfect for you  low CC  CD, high dmg  high riven  disposition,wish you a happy farming in steel path👎

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40 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

You've missed the point. 
I could swap the Crit Mods for Status ones (CC is 25 while Status is 23 so it can built either way) with no impact to the base damage and in no circumstance is the increased Status Chance in this scenario going to compete against the Crit setup. 
If you want to do good Status damage, you take a Crit based weapon. Which is just plain backwards. 

In the scenario of my Shedu being built for Status rather than crit, It would would take multiple shots fired to stack up Viral and DoT effects in an attempt to get closer to the damage offered by crit. 
Meanwhile the crit build simply deletes the target in one shot. 

To put it another way, Kuva Nukor in maximum Status chance mode can apply a ridiculous number of Heat stacks to a target extremely quickly. 
But which kills the victim faster, the accumulated DoTs being boosted by Viral stacks or .. Building the Nukor for Crit and letting the monstrous Crit Multiplier outright kill it's victim in half the time?
Despite that the Nukor is obviously not a crit weapon, By abusing crit multipliers it becomes a more effective weapon than building it for Status. 

Fixing Crit Multipliers alone wont fix the issue of damage in general, But the difference Crit makes in damage dealt is a lot higher than you give it credit for. 

I wrote pure damage, not status.

As statuses cap, there is little reason to actively build for status except for status primers or slash.

My point was that it's misleading to compare a crit and non-crit hit on a weapon built for crit because it's the same as comparing a fully modded weapon to an unfinished build.

Crit is just another multiplier and has similar relative gains to other multipliers for the same amount of mod slots invested. The only difference is that crit is an extra multiplier some weapons can take advantage and others don't creating a gap between the crit-ables and the cri-t-pples.

Tuning the Crit multiplier numbers won't change this gap unless Crit mods and multipliers were made uselessly weak.

The real solution is to make the Crit Multiplier additive with something else like Base Damage.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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49 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, but it deals more more damage. lol. I know it's a bit confusing.

Confusing or not I don't think that's a Distinction that matters to anyone.... 🤔

51 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

It's like you put a dollar into a vending machine to get a Snickers. If you put in a dollar bill, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with a credit card, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with a debit card, you get one Snickers. If you put in a dollar with quarters and dimes, you get one Snickers. But if you put in a dollar with a $1 coin, you get two Snickers. Or half of a Snickers. Or just the wrapper. Or five Snickers. It depends on the vending machine. All the other payment methods get you the same one Snickers per dollar except for $1 coins.

I don't think that Anology applies here.... I wouldn't expect 2 Snickers from a vending machine that explicitly states is sells only one for a $1. So if that did infact happen then I would definately realise something is off. But if the Machine hints that the amount of Snickers you get depends on the Type of Dollars you use then it's fine if I get more Snickers... Even if it's more than it should be....

55 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

It's the same with stats. If you put in 100% Status Chance, you get twice as many procs and reach cap twice as fast.

Thats how RNG would work in a perfect world ... And Warframe is far from Perfect.... If you put in 100% Status Chance you probably will say more Consistent Procs but the value wouldn't be exactly Twice as Many.... It might be more... It might be less... It all depends on if the Weapon can be bothered to play along.

57 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

If you put in 100% Fire Rate, you get twice as many procs and twice as much damage.

This doesn't sound right 🤔.... A 100% Fire Rate would definitely increase the number of Damage Instances per second but it definitely doesn't double it ... Basically Fire Rate doesn't work like the other mods.... 100% is not the same as 2X Fire Rate.... 

This doesn't require any fancy pants Math Homework.... You can just slap on Vile Acceleration and and notice that it doesn't feel as fast as the numbers imply.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

If you put in 100% Damage, you get twice as much damage. If you put in 100% Multishot, you get twice as much damage and twice as many procs

These work consistently.... More or less...

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

But if you put in 100% Crit Chance, sure you crit twice as often. If you put in 100% Crit Damage, sure you crit twice as hard.

So you agree with us then ? 😁

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

But Crits are just damage, and over time the amount of damage you actually deal from them will depend heavily on the base stats.

Isn't that how all damage Multipliers Work ? 🤔

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

All of the other stats give you the same multiplicative increase regardless of base stats except for Crit Chance/Damage, which give you a different multiplicative increase depending on the weapon.

I'm assuming that's if you use the "Over Time Method" of calculating damage.... Which I honestly don't care about.... I only concern my self with a single Cycle of Damage.... And in one cycle... Crit isnt doing anything that the other mods aren't doing the same way.... Right ?

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