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How about toning down critical?


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6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not sure if "player balance" and "game balance" are really distinct, though. They're both sides of the same spinning coin. If either side is out of line then the coin folds and stops spinning. It doesn't matter what numbers are chosen for "game balance" if the "player balance" side swings around randomly across a huge range.

The terms used earlier were “Player balance is what we set ourselves to in terms of power (and thus how easy or hard the fight is)”, and “Game balance is what DE sets in terms of core numbers”.

It is entirely on us to combine our mods in whatever way we want, but when DE makes changes to the core numbers, that’s outside of our control. And changing those core numbers has cascading effects through the chain of mods. And yes our choices affect each other in multiplayer.

I am surprised at the confusion, Publik; not only did you actually play around with weapons that did not have META builds and say that the game felt better, but you’ve also started a new playthrough and can see firsthand how, at the start, the game forces us to be on-the-same-level, but very quickly we can overpower earlier content that we still need to fight through for the mods that let us progress higher.

We don’t necessarily need all of the power that we have in our orbiter, even in early-game, which means we can start tweaking the weapon to reload faster or aim straighter and still make it through content looking for, I dunno, elemental mods or Barrel Diffusion (I still don’t have that mod 😑).

Game balance is in the mission, and Player balance is what you brought

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7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not sure if "player balance" and "game balance" are really distinct, though. They're both sides of the same spinning coin. If either side is out of line then the coin folds and stops spinning. It doesn't matter what numbers are chosen for "game balance" if the "player balance" side swings around randomly across a huge range.

Alternatively, are you asking for the micro Game Balance of the missions themselves to be adjusted to the macro Game Balance of everything we can acquire and our overall progression?

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14 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Alternatively, are you asking for the micro Game Balance of the missions themselves to be adjusted to the macro Game Balance of everything we can acquire and our overall progression?

Let's just walk this back to the topic of the thread.

Armchair says crit mods should be nerfed to reduce player power (I think he's being disingenuous with these threads but let's take what he says at face value). I say mods of any type shouldn't be nerfed, because nerfing individual stats won't do any good in the long run. I say that if anything, crit mods should be made additive because of a peculiar set of mathematical interactions that creates a small part of the game's imbalance. This actually ends up being a buff, which might seem a little contradictory for me given what I usually talk about. But it's not, because doing that would make crit scaling more normalized across the board, which fits with my overall ideals of making player power in general more normalized.

I don't think I'm saying anything more or less than this.

Edited by PublikDomain
Removed first half of reply, let's just focus on the second half
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9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Is the "discarding mods" thing you mentioned earlier in regards to the non-meta builds you're bringing up? IE discarding power in favor of other things? Just trying to understand where you're coming from.  If that's the case then yes, discarding damage mods does make the game feel better. You don't need all that power for the vast majority of the game's content. Which is why DE should change the mechanics to make that the standard. And yes, in a new playthrough you can find a much more balanced experience like the game probably should be throughout, and it also shows you quite plainly where many of the balance problems actually lie. So I'm not sure why you'd be confused, since everything I've been saying is stuff I've confirmed for myself through my own experimentation and testing.

Oh! No no, haha. I think I see the confusion now, it was my choice of words.

No, I meant like, selling Mods. We’re not selling the last copy of our mods because we always want access to them, to mix and match as we please. The thought of not having an option that we acquired once before is kind of out there.

I answered this one first because the first section of your post will require a little more thinking how to phrase, and I’m a little distracted at the moment, so bear with me 👍 

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56 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Let's just walk this back to the topic of the thread.

Armchair says crit mods should be nerfed to reduce player power (I think he's being disingenuous with these threads but let's take what he says at face value). I say mods of any type shouldn't be nerfed, because nerfing individual stats won't do any good in the long run. I say that if anything, crit mods should be made additive because of a peculiar set of mathematical interactions that creates a small part of the game's imbalance. This actually ends up being a buff, which might seem a little contradictory for me given what I usually talk about. But it's not, because doing that would make crit scaling more normalized across the board, which fits with my overall ideals of making player power in general more normalized.

I don't think I'm saying anything more or less than this.

Hmm. I remember you saying additive crit was the way to go. Need to think on the effects; haven’t really considered it before

This peculiar set of mathematical interactions intrigues me. I’m not going to ask what the mathematics are, but it sounds like it requires a specific configuration to take advantage of or care about?

edit: Wait, you are talking about just the damage, right?

double edit: If you were referring to crit chance as well, what happens to status vs crit weapons the higher we go while adding crits?

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
trimmed out ignorant thinkings. added additional wonderings
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1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

This peculiar set of mathematical interactions intrigues me. I’m not going to ask what the mathematics are, but it sounds like it requires a specific configuration to take advantage of or care about?

😭 I really don't wanna have to explain this again in this thread. Just for you.

+100% Damage or Elemental Damage or Faction Damage always doubles damage. +100% Fire Rate or Multishot always doubles damage and doubles proc rate. +100% Status always doubles proc rate. The weapon does not matter, it could be the MK1-Braton or the Kuva Nukor. The stats all scale the same. +100% Crit Chance and Crit Damage doubles your crit rate and Crit Damage stat, but this does not result in the same actual multiplier to damage for every weapon, because calculating that multiplier includes the base stats which then makes a big difference. That difference creates a widening gap between weapons which can make good use of crit mods and weapons which can't.

Here's my homework for Ervin which he never completed which will show you what I'm talking about:

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Go to overframe and pick two weapons. Doesn't matter what they are.

Add the same pure Status mod to both and calculate the increase in procs/sec. How many more times do they both proc Status?

Then add the same Damage mod to both and calculate the increase in damage/sec. How many more times damage do they each deal?

Now add the same Crit Chance and Crit Damage mod to both and calculate the increase in damage/sec. How many more times damage do they each deal?

Are the multipliers to Status and Damage and Crit the same on both weapons?

So you can check this yourself. There's no special configuration to consider, it's just the basic underlying math that the game uses for crits. Any weapon using a crit mod of any type sees this happen, and it's why you shouldn't use crit mods on some weapons. Whether you care about this depends on whether you care about your damage or just mod by feel.

I really hope this is the last time I have to explain this lol.

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42 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

😭 I really don't wanna have to explain this again in this thread. Just for you.

+100% Damage or Elemental Damage or Faction Damage always doubles damage. +100% Fire Rate or Multishot always doubles damage and doubles proc rate. +100% Status always doubles proc rate. The weapon does not matter, it could be the MK1-Braton or the Kuva Nukor. The stats all scale the same. +100% Crit Chance and Crit Damage doubles your crit rate and Crit Damage stat, but this does not result in the same actual multiplier to damage for every weapon, because calculating that multiplier includes the base stats which then makes a big difference. That difference creates a widening gap between weapons which can make good use of crit mods and weapons which can't.

Here's my homework for Ervin which he never completed which will show you what I'm talking about:

So you can check this yourself. There's no special configuration to consider, it's just the basic underlying math that the game uses for crits. Any weapon using a crit mod of any type sees this happen, and it's why you shouldn't use crit mods on some weapons. Whether you care about this depends on whether you care about your damage or just mod by feel.

I really hope this is the last time I have to explain this lol.

Appreciated 👍 I didn’t mean to have you repeat yourself ad nauseum 😅, so thanks.

Hm. So crit weapons become more specialised for crit damage, while status weapons do not benefit so much from crit multipliers. Is this bad? I wouldn’t expect status to have all sorts of damage, but I would expect them to apply different status effects more frequently while being sufficient enough to help kill if needed. Usually I would expect to bring a high-damage alternative weapon to complement my status weapon.

(if you already answered this question previously, just let me know and I’ll find and read it 👍)

late edit: 🤔 Though if a player chooses “Easy demigod mode” for their mission, I can see how status might fall to the wayside by design; ain’t no-one wanna deal with different elements and status effects and CC if they just want to use their favourite weapon to kill everything, and I wouldn’t expect to do so either if I wanted to just take it chill

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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The main issue with balance between critical and status weapons is that not all enemies are susceptible to status, or limited susceptibility in the case of acolytes having limited proc counts, and Deimos enemies being immune to viral which is pretty much the entirety of what makes status good at dealing damage by itself at all right now (yes I know slash but there's not a lot of weapons that are good with slash without also having critical stats). Which makes critical an objectively better all around choice if you don't like swapping weapons for every little thing. Cus your choices are: weapons that can kill stuff good situationally, vs weapons that can kill stuff just as good all the time.

Status immunities need to be removed from enemies, and status chance heavily buffed on slow status weapons to balance them out if anything. and probably a big buff to a lot of the less meta status procs

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11 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

The main issue with balance between critical and status weapons is that not all enemies are susceptible to status, or limited susceptibility in the case of acolytes having limited proc counts, and Deimos enemies being immune to viral which is pretty much the entirety of what makes status good at dealing damage by itself at all right now (yes I know slash but there's not a lot of weapons that are good with slash without also having critical stats). Which makes critical an objectively better all around choice if you don't like swapping weapons for every little thing. Cus your choices are: weapons that can kill stuff good situationally, vs weapons that can kill stuff just as good all the time.

Status immunities need to be removed from enemies, and status chance heavily buffed on slow status weapons to balance them out if anything. and probably a big buff to a lot of the less meta status procs

Status Immunity seemed to only exist to reign in Corrosive before the status rework. Feels silly now that both armor scaling and Corrosive got capped.

The power of 11x Crit multipliers was literally insignificant to the power of 100% armor strip when armor scaled exponentially.

At Sortie level, armor gave an enemy upwards of 20x ehp and just got higher and higher during an endurance run.

Against such armor, Crit-weapons fell off hard compared to Status-weapons, which was why Hunter Munitions was introduced as a band-aid.

Let that sink in: Hunter Muntions was a Band-aid introduced to help "garbage" crit weapons against armor.

The gentler S-curve armor scaling was a buff to Crit weapons as raw damage was allowed to scale higher.

Corrosive getting capped killed a lot of non-Slash Status weapons like the Strun Wraith.

The loss of 4x IPS nerfed a lot of Slash based Status weapons, while Crit-weapons that relied on Hunter Munitions got stronger due to Viral's buff.

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35 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

The main issue with balance between critical and status weapons is that not all enemies are susceptible to status, or limited susceptibility in the case of acolytes having limited proc counts, and Deimos enemies being immune to viral which is pretty much the entirety of what makes status good at dealing damage by itself at all right now (yes I know slash but there's not a lot of weapons that are good with slash without also having critical stats). Which makes critical an objectively better all around choice if you don't like swapping weapons for every little thing. Cus your choices are: weapons that can kill stuff good situationally, vs weapons that can kill stuff just as good all the time.

Status immunities need to be removed from enemies, and status chance heavily buffed on slow status weapons to balance them out if anything. and probably a big buff to a lot of the less meta status procs

There's a small handful of non fodder enemies. 

If you do regular missions with regular grineer, corpus and infested anything works.

But now that all the weak players have to fight bosses like acolytes and want new tenet toys all of a sudden they have to think instead of use the same viral heat on all their weapons. 

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3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Status Immunity seemed to only exist to reign in Corrosive before the status rework.

Which is Strange because Corrosive wasn't that good even back then.... 

My guess is DE was simply Nerfing by Popularity again since Corrosive worked just fine against every Faction... It was recommended by every YouTube guide... DE naturally didn't want people to think Warframe was a one damage type Game so they Nerfed Corrosive... 😐 

Yeah.... I don't even have the energy to whine about this decision... 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Which is Strange because Corrosive wasn't that good even back then.... 

My guess is DE was simply Nerfing by Popularity again since Corrosive worked just fine against every Faction... It was recommended by every YouTube guide... DE naturally didn't want people to think Warframe was a one damage type Game so they Nerfed Corrosive... 😐 

Yeah.... I don't even have the energy to whine about this decision... 

 

And Gas got nerfed.

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5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

So crit weapons become more specialised for crit damage, while status weapons do not benefit so much from crit multipliers. Is this bad? I wouldn’t expect status to have all sorts of damage, but I would expect them to apply different status effects more frequently while being sufficient enough to help kill if needed. Usually I would expect to bring a high-damage alternative weapon to complement my status weapon.

(if you already answered this question previously, just let me know and I’ll find and read it 👍)

late edit: 🤔 Though if a player chooses “Easy demigod mode” for their mission, I can see how status might fall to the wayside by design; ain’t no-one wanna deal with different elements and status effects and CC if they just want to use their favourite weapon to kill everything, and I wouldn’t expect to do so either if I wanted to just take it chill

It's not the viability of status vs crit, I'm just talking crit on its own. Status only comes into the discussion because someone asked if crit being made additive was good then wouldn't status being made additive be good, too. But status already scales fairly regardless of weapon so there probably isn't a need to change it, unlike crit. With status mods, and damage mods, and multishot mods, and all the other damage stats, 2 × 2 = 4. You add some amount of the stat, it multiplies the effect by that amount plus one. It's always the same no matter what weapon. Rifle Aptitude is a 1.9 times increase to status procs over time no matter what rifle you put it on. But with crit mods 2 × 2 is sometimes 3. Or 5. Or 7. Or 4. It depends. And the number is bigger for weapons that are already good at critting. Point Strike is sometimes a 1.09x damage multiplier, sometimes it's a 1.64x multiplier. It's not even. All I've been saying is that it's not even lol.

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1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

It's not the viability of status vs crit, I'm just talking crit on its own. Status only comes into the discussion because someone asked if crit being made additive was good then wouldn't status being made additive be good, too. But status already scales fairly regardless of weapon so there probably isn't a need to change it, unlike crit. With status mods, and damage mods, and multishot mods, and all the other damage stats, 2 × 2 = 4. You add some amount of the stat, it multiplies the effect by that amount plus one. It's always the same no matter what weapon. Rifle Aptitude is a 1.9 times increase to status procs over time no matter what rifle you put it on. But with crit mods 2 × 2 is sometimes 3. Or 5. Or 7. Or 4. It depends. And the number is bigger for weapons that are already good at critting. Point Strike is sometimes a 1.09x damage multiplier, sometimes it's a 1.64x multiplier. It's not even. All I've been saying is that it's not even lol.

I can agree with that observation, yeah

edit: 🤔 Though status weighting is a thing that shifts depending on the amount of the IPS or element equipped. I can definitely agree though that crit mods affect damage across different weapons unevenly

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

And Gas got nerfed.

Gas got Completely Destroyed... 😱

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's not the viability of status vs crit, I'm just talking crit on its own. Status only comes into the discussion because someone asked if crit being made additive was good then wouldn't status being made additive be good, too. But status already scales fairly regardless of weapon so there probably isn't a need to change it, unlike crit.

This doesn't sound Right.... There are plenty of Weapons that don't scale well with Status... Just like there are plenty of Weapons that Don't Scale well with Crit.... Making Both Additive would fix that.... 

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's not even. All I've been saying is that it's not even lol.

But your own Examples show that it is even 😱 !!!

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I can definitely agree though that crit mods affect damage across different weapons unevenly

So do Status and Fire Rate Mods.... 

The only one that's even is Multishot.... So long as we Ignore Beam Weapons because DE doesn't want to us to have Super Tentacle Barrage Weapons 😭 !!!

 

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19 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So do Status and Fire Rate Mods.... 

The only one that's even is Multishot.... So long as we Ignore Beam Weapons because DE doesn't want to us to have Super Tentacle Barrage Weapons 😭 !!!

I was thinking of the interaction between Crit Damage and Crit Chance mods. The same Crit Chance mod will contribute to damage in a different way depending on whether a Crit Damage mod is equipped or not.

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8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

+100% Status always doubles proc rate.

This is true, but it's missing the point of status-focused weapons. Let's ignore Hunter Munitions, etc for now, and just look at raw status output from the weapon. (Because status mods do not meaningfully increase the rate at which these mods cause slash procs to occur.)

For a heavy crit weapon like the Synapse, the percent of the weapon's total damage that comes from status procs is small. For a heavy status weapon like Phantasma, almost all of the damage comes from its heat procs. Doubling the status chance on the Phantasma effectively doubles your total damage, while doubling the status chance on the Synapse absolutely does not. That's a big reason why Weeping Wounds is such a good mod; on heavily slash-focused melee, and against highly armored targets, it provides nearly a 5.4x damage multiplier. Kronen Prime is an example of a weapon that benefits from this; Ninkondi Prime is a weapon that does not. Weeping Wounds is still a good mod for Ninkondi Prime, but it's never going to be a 5.4x multiplier.

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I was thinking of the interaction between Crit Damage and Crit Chance mods. The same Crit Chance mod will contribute to damage in a different way depending on whether a Crit Damage mod is equipped or not.

Isn't that because that's exactly what Crit Damage Mods should do ? 🤔 It would be weird if it didn't do that.

5 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Doubling the status chance on the Phantasma effectively doubles your total damage, 

This doesn't sound right 🤔 doubling the Status Chance on any Status Weapon doesn't double your Total Damage... I don't think.... I would have noticed something like that... Or maybe I wouldnt... I don't do Math when I'm Commiting Genocide.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

That's a big reason why Weeping Wounds is such a good mod; on heavily slash-focused melee, and against highly armored targets, it provides nearly a 5.4x damage multiplier. Kronen Prime is an example of a weapon that benefits from this; Ninkondi Prime is a weapon that does not. Weeping Wounds is still a good mod for Ninkondi Prime, but it's never going to be a 5.4x multiplier.

That's right... I think we all knew that hence why I just assumed we were all operating under the assumption that all these mods would be used on Slash Weapons... And Toxin for Corpus...

 

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12 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Isn't that because that's exactly what Crit Damage Mods should do ? 🤔 It would be weird if it didn't do that.

That’s what I figure, but I could very well be misunderstanding something, or am lacking some sort of insight that someone else’s perspective provides. Additional info may be required to get on the same page

edit: 🤔 Looking through previous posts, there’s mention of some sort of mathematical tomfoolery behind-the-scenes?

Hmm, additional review of previous posts needed

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

That’s what I figure, but I could very well be misunderstanding something, or am lacking some sort of insight that someone else’s perspective provides. 

From my interaction with @PublikDomain... It seems like he/she is evaluating these mods based on Averages rather than Single Instances... Which requires doing the Math Differently.... And ignores the most important aspect of how these mods work... They are RNG on almost every weapon....

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Additional info may be required to get on the same page

Maybe.... But he/she won't talk to me anymore soooooo... It's up to you buddy !!! I believe in you !!!

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25 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

From my interaction with @PublikDomain... It seems like he/she is evaluating these mods based on Averages rather than Single Instances... Which requires doing the Math Differently.... And ignores the most important aspect of how these mods work... They are RNG on almost every weapon....

Haha, I’ll have to take your word for it. The nitty-gritty of speculative math scares me; if it was up to me, I’d be adjusting numbers until a thing feels right and isn’t in too much a danger of destroying any other systems, and then looking at the end result and thinking “So that’s the numbers”.

 🤔 Though knowledge of my numbers would be important, so that I have some sense of “If I change this, this will happen”. Since it’s not up to me, I haven’t given numbers much thought; never really found it a priority to figure them out

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Haha, I’ll have to take your word for it. The nitty-gritty of speculative math scares me; if it was up to me, I’d be adjusting numbers until a thing feels right and isn’t in too much a danger of destroying any other systems, and then looking at the end result and thinking “So that’s the numbers”.

If it was me... I wouldn't be using RNG in the first place.... At which point I'd be looking for a new Job because Guaranteed Progress is just not Sustainable in the Free To Play Market... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

If it was me... I wouldn't be using RNG in the first place.... At which point I'd be looking for a new Job because Guaranteed Progress is just not Sustainable in the Free To Play Market... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Mm. I feel ya. I don’t quite like how I don’t know whether I’ll kill an enemy in 5 shots or 7 shots consistantly.

That  said, it does make for a pretty okay way to make certain weapons feel different, and personally I find it not-so-crucial to know how many shots it takes so long as the thing dies at an okay speed for the mission I’m doing. Titanfall multiplayer is one where that kind of info is crucial, but I feel Warframe not so much.

RNG rewards on the other hand is a whole other topic 😋

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