How about toning down critical?

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

In response, multiplicative modding instead encourages rigidity as well. You only mod to strengths, and do not cover the weakness. Modding to help cover the weakness only weakens the gun further. Adding 100% crit chance substantially helps a gun with 30% crit chance, but adding 100% crit chance to a gun with only 2% crit chance does nothing. The identity of a gun is predetermined. There is no customization for them. They are rigid. Singular. And cannot be modified. Build variance is minimal. It isn't feeling free to play to the strengths. It's being forced to do so because doing the opposite is wholly worthless in comparison.

The idea of a proper additive modding is that modding against your strengths will not be less effective than modding to it. That covering weaknesses in a gun is just as effective as amplifying their strengths. Currently that is entirely impossible. Modding for strengths is all one can do. The only way additive modding becomes so rigid is that the numbers are adjusted poorly. Which is why the system in its entirety would need an overhaul for it. Which is why it is untenable currently. The multiplicative problem is not leaving. It's everywhere in Warframe. If the option is to heavily dampen all damage output (Eidolons) or just negate an entire aspect of the system (Status immunity) or both of those, then something is inherently wrong. Additive modding would curtail the out of control increase in damage output and help define a proper ceiling to which to balance those additive mods to. Small damage increases can be massively impactful and create a much larger gap between two weapons with similar starting points when multiplication is used. Multiplication makes balance much harder. Especially when it gets stacked on itself like it currently does.
 

Those arent issues with a multiplicative system though, those are issues rooted in DE's approach to a multiplicative system. No actual diminishing return on the modifiers, just natural diminish, waaay too high modifiers and base stats to start with among other things. And it isnt like we dont have weapons to pick from to get variance. Being able to make all weapons nearly identical would pretty much kill any purpose to have the number of different weapons we currently have. WF has always been about the right tool for the job and then including that in your full build, be it the frame, primary, secondary or melee.

DE would be wise to look at other successful arpgs out there that handles crit and so on well. There is no reason to have what we have just because people are happy to see massive numbers. Tone it all down and rebalance the mobs we face aswell to account for a new balanced system. Players wouldnt feel much impact of it in what they currently play, but it would allow DE to actually create harder future content. Most devs design things around a certain TTK, DE doesnt seem to do that, they seem to wing it like everything else, just as they lack "design budgets" for mobs and items.

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

I added the Phantasma to the spreadsheet Ervin doesn't want to look at (go figure)

I can tell you why, because the spreadsheet is horribly annoying to read on the forums for my eyes. And because you would eventually arrive to the point where the stat effects different weapons in a different ways, which was my whole point that you resisted and resisted and resisted even tohugh your math regarding the phantasma shows. But even then you try to make excuses about it. Now it has changed from "the same on all" to "not by much". It effects different weapons to different degrees, period.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And because you would eventually arrive to the point where the stat effects different weapons in a different ways, which was my whole point that you resisted and resisted and resisted even tohugh your math regarding the phantasma shows. But even then you try to make excuses about it. Now it has changed from "the same on all" to "not by much". It effects different weapons to different degrees, period.

That's called "learning". I've learned new information and slightly adjusted my stance to account for it. Funny how that works when you're keeping an open mind. Notice how I kept saying that Status probably wasn't worth making additive? Because I thought it probably wouldn't be. And it still probably isn't. The difference in scaling seems to be very, very minor unlike the difference in crit scaling. The Phantasma benefited less than 10% more from the same Status mods than a Latron despite having wildly different base proc rates, meanwhile the Rubico benefits something like 300% more than either from the same crit mods. Because like I've been saying the impact of base stats on crit mods is huge and the impact of base stats on status mods is not. And if I'm wrong, which I've already said multiple times that I might be, then all that means is that Status should maybe be additive too. And maybe it still should be, but I'm not convinced yet that it's a big enough difference to matter.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I can tell you why, because the spreadsheet is horribly annoying to read on the forums for my eyes.

Ok? I've given you plenty of examples to look at and you've balked at every one. You can't even be bothered to divide two numbers on a calculator.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That's called "learning". I've learned new information and slightly adjusted my stance to account for it. Funny how that works when you're keeping an open mind. Notice how I kept saying that Status probably wasn't worth making additive? Because I thought it probably wouldn't be. And it still probably isn't. The difference in scaling seems to be very, very minor unlike the difference in crit scaling. The Phantasma benefited less than 10% more from the same Status mods than a Latron despite having wildly different base proc rates, meanwhile the Rubico benefits something like 300% more than either from the same crit mods. Because like I've been saying the impact of base stats on crit mods is huge and the impact of base stats on status mods is not. And if I'm wrong, which I've already said multiple times that I might be, then all that means is that Status should maybe be additive too. And maybe it still should be, but I'm not convinced yet that it's a big enough difference to matter.

Ok? I've given you plenty of examples to look at and you've balked at every one. You can't even be bothered to divide two numbers on a calculator.

But it is only minor when you look at weapons with similar stat weights. And even there it is just napkin math because the ramp up to reach higher and higher damaging statuses is far longer on those with lower fire rate, lower status chance and so on even if their status/sec is increased exactly as much. Something which is quite obvious since if you multiply something with x% on two things, both will increase their potential just as many times. That doesnt mean that they are effected or benefit equally from it. 

Statuses rely on time to work aswell. The gap between weapons will increase more and more for each second that passes by in a fight where status has uptime. Two weapons with equal damage stat values but different status spread would end up with pretty significant differences in kill time. Take a weapon with IPS 33/33/33+90 heat mod versus a pure heat weapon with 99+90 heat, both produce 10 statuses per second. In a 10 second fight the pure heat weapon would provide 100 heat procs, the other would deal 48 heat procs, and 17 slash procs with the rest wasted on I and P. That means that at the 10 second mark, the IPS weapon would still not have killed that same mob, there would still be quite a bit of health to chew through. Obviously it is simplified but I'm sure you get the picture.

 

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

DE has had no less than 3 separate revisions to weapons and weapon damage in the last few years— If crit was so game-breaking that they felt exceptionally strongly about altering it then they'd have changed it when they changed the other stuff.

They haven't...

Arguments about parity between crit and status don't make a whole bunch of sense in the wider view because the game generally lacks parity to begin with.

Why should those two mechanics have parity when nothing else does?

It's nifty to make the "parity=balance" argument but parity is not balance without all underlying factors being equal in the process.

All underlying factors aren't equal to begin with.

DE has clearly shown an intent to make all weapons, frames/abilities, and damage types distinct either in form or function from each other... Expecting parity in the case of crit and status seems more like a departure from the game's existing balance.

 

[Aldain]

29 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It's nifty to make the "parity=balance" argument but parity is not balance without all underlying factors being equal in the process.

While I agree parity isn't balance on its own, it is a factor that should be considered in the greater scope.

For example, in 9 out of 10 game modes there is no parity between Single Target and Multi-Target weapons because in the time it takes to aim most single target weapons any AoE or Melee weapon can kill several times more enemies for less effort and (as it pertains to Warframe) usually less modding requirements as well.

Even when KPS isn't a factor in success like in say Survival or to a lesser extent Disruption the linear inefficacy of single target weapons isn't even on the same continent as the AoE alternatives.

Right now there is little by way of actual parity across many areas of Warframe, enemy-on-player damage scales up at such an aggressive rate that nothing short of going full DR+Armor blob or Shield Gate abuser is effective defensively for example.

All of this stems from there being too much potential damage, in both directions, Critical is just one facet of that problem, true, but it is just a symptom of the greater lack of parity (or even remote comparison) between many of the options Warframe has, as well as the disparate amounts of effort it takes to make some things even remotely worthwhile while some come ready to work out of the box.

[PublikDomain]

First off, as you're again entirely missing, different weapons getting different performance is both 1) completely obvious, of course they are, and 2) not at all what I've been talking about for the last 7 pages or so. I am solely talking about the difference in multipliers produced from the same Status Chance mods. Yes, crit weapons deal more crit damage than non-crit weapons and status weapons deal more status damage than non-status weapons. Duh. All I've been saying, and all I'm continuing to say, is that the multipliers produced by crit mods are far more varied than the multipliers produced by status mods. And they are, and it's obvious.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Statuses rely on time to work aswell. The gap between weapons will increase more and more for each second that passes by in a fight where status has uptime.

Which is why it didn't occur to me to consider direct damage DPS and status damage. They're two separate pools of DPS, so combining them doesn't entirely make sense. It's apples to oranges. And when you look at the two pools of damage in that context, what I'm saying remains true: the same amount of Status Chance produces the same multiplier to status DPS.

But if you combine the damage that at least make sense (direct damage + heat + gas + electric) then you do see a difference in that multiplier. But again - it's much smaller compared to crit and probably doesn't need to be addressed.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Two weapons with equal damage stat values but different status spread would end up with pretty significant differences in kill time. Take a weapon with IPS 33/33/33+90 heat mod versus a pure heat weapon with 99+90 heat, both produce 10 statuses per second. In a 10 second fight the pure heat weapon would provide 100 heat procs, the other would deal 48 heat procs, and 17 slash procs with the rest wasted on I and P. That means that at the 10 second mark, the IPS weapon would still not have killed that same mob, there would still be quite a bit of health to chew through. Obviously it is simplified but I'm sure you get the picture.

But sure, let's take a look at these hypothetical weapons. 10 fire rate, 5 multishot, and 20% Status Chance would produce 10 procs/sec. So let's say Weapon A is 99 IPS damage evenly split, and Weapon B is 99 Heat damage. They both have 20% CC, 2.0x CD, 20% SC, 5x base Multishot, a 10 fire Rate, a 100 Magazine, and a 2s Reload. Since Heat Procs only last for 6s and these hypothetical weapons can fire uninterrupted for 10s, there's no need to worry about ramp-up because both will have plenty of time to saturate their target.

• With one 90% Heat mod, Weapon A inflicts 4.74 Heat procs a second adding 3,376.42 Burst Heat Proc DPS.
  • This is 14,662.42 total Burst DPS (and 437.68 Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side).
• With one 90% Heat mod, Weapon B inflicts 10 Heat procs a second adding 7,128.00 Burst Heat Proc DPS.
  • This is 18,414.00 total Burst DPS.
• Adding a 90% Status Chance mod to Weapon A causes it to inflict 9 Heat procs a second (1.9x more) adding 6,415.20 Burst Heat Proc DPS (1.9x more).
  • This is 17,701.20 total Burst DPS (and 1.9x more Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side, too).
    • This is 1.21x more total Burst DPS than before.
• Adding a 90% Status Chance mod to Weapon A causes it to inflict 9 Heat procs a second (1.9x more) adding 6,415.20 Burst Heat Proc DPS (1.9x more).
  • This is 24,829.20 total Burst DPS (and 1.9x more Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side, too).
    • This is 1.35x more total Burst DPS than before.

So even with weapons that have completely different proc distributions, the multiplier to total Burst DPS is pretty similar. Yes, Weapon B deals more damage from its Heat procs. Of course it does. But the same Status Chance mod multiplies that number similarly to the otherwise-identical IPS weapon. Weapon B only gains 11% more DPS from the same 90% Status Chance mod. This is probably fine and doesn't look large enough to need changing. Even Weapon C, a copy of the Heat weapon but with 5x the base Status Chance (100%), only gets a 1.68x multiplier to total Burst DPS from the 90% Status Chance mod. That's only 38% more benefit than Weapon A from the same mods.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it is only minor when you look at weapons with similar stat weights.

So no, it's really not.

Crit mods, on the other hand, produce far wider multipliers. Weapons A-C with their 20%/2x Crit stats each gain 1.2x damage from crits, and with 150% CC/120% CD now get 2.7x damage from crits. Weapon D, a copy of Weapon B but with 5x the Crit Chance (100%) instead of 5x the Status Chance, starts at 2x and goes up to 9.5x. It benefits 111% more than the others from the same mods. And that's not even a particularly good example, because real ingame weapons have those kinds of differences without even having outlandish stats like 100% base Crit Chance. The Latron with 150% CC/120% CD mods goes from 1.12x to 2.02x from crits, but as shown before the Rubico Prime with the same mods goes from 1.76x to 6.32x. That means the Rubico benefits 99% more from the same mods as the Latron. I think that kind of disparity, where normal weapons are gaining twice as much or more from the same mods, is actually worth addressing while the smaller percentages from Status probably aren't.

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

While I agree parity isn't balance on its own, it is a factor that should be considered in the greater scope.

Actually it isn't... That's my point.

Parity might be a facet of what you expect in balance ( I did for a great many years too...) but balance and parity are irrespective of each other in this game and this has been the case since the game went into open beta.

In fact, it's the only consistent feature of this game...

• Range and melee have never been equal in any capacity.
• Some frames are simply stronger than some others.
• Crit is streaky and Status is reliable— At least until we look at instances where they aren't.
• Even the color pallets in this game don't display equally on all the frames.

The only active question actually regards whether the mechanic, item, or feature's abilities can perform in the game as it is today.

Both Crit and Status pass muster in this case.  Whether they do so equally was never relevant to begin with.

Nerf herding for the sake of parity or for the random OCD of some posters need to see fewer numbers via a "stat squish" isn't relevant to that either.

Arguments like these are essentially the type of commentary you'd see from long-time homeowners regarding the need to remodel a room to make it look strangely like something you've seen some(every)place else instead —Needless and lacking imagination. 
 

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

On 2021-09-21 at 3:52 AM, PublikDomain said:

• The Phantasma with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, and 60% Fire Rate deals 33.98% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs.
• The Phantasma with 165% Damage, 55% Bane, 90% Heat, 90% Multishot, 150% CC, 120% CD, 60% Fire Rate, and 90% Status Chance deals 49.44% of its Burst DPS as Heat procs, 1.305x more.

First off, don't put crit on a weapon with 3% base crit chance. That's deliberately crippling the weapon. My build is Galvanized Savvy, Galvanized Hell, 90% heat, 60/60 heat, Blaze, unranked 60/60 viral mods, and a riven with multishot, status chance, and minus slash. Something that might be throwing off your numbers is forgetting that heat procs on Phantasma (and other beam shotguns) scale with multishot twice. First, the number of procs you inflict scales up with multishot, same as with every weapon. Second, the damage per proc scales up as well. This might be a bug, but it's been around for a long time so I don't think it's getting removed.

With this build, after 1 second of firing it's something like 97% of the damage coming from procs. It's something like 250 heat procs per magazine. And heat scales up over time without limit, so the proportion will rise asymptotically to 100%. You could probably swap in a bane to get even more damage from procs, but I don't use them.

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

I also never once advocated for a +50 damage serration.

You didn't put concrete numbers on it, but you did suggest that damage + armor should be made additive first. Additive armor is also a terrible idea, but this thread is generally about damage, so I looked at damage and gave a concrete example of a source of additive damage.

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

Damage per shot is also not irrelevant. It's still immensely important. Damage per shot defines the potential of a weapon's time to kill.

No, it doesn't. Damage per shot is one variable in the formula to calculate a weapon's TTK, which is why looking at it in isolation isn't helpful.

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

Therefore, the higher the gain from Serration, the higher the gain from elemental mods. This disproportionately effects time to kill and grants bigger benefits to those with bigger base numbers.

No, it doesn't. Here's a mathematical proof. Consider guns G1 and G2, where G1 has higher damage than G2 but they are otherwise similar. Against a given enemy E, G1 will have time to kill T1 and G2 will have time to kill T2. The difference in TTK is (T2 - T1). Now imagine adding a damage mod to each gun. Say it doubles the damage. Then the new TTK for G1 is 0.5 * T1, and the new TTK for G2 is 0.5 * T2. The new difference in TTK is (0.5*T2 - 0.5*T1) = 0.5 * (T2 - T1). The difference in time to kill is halved after applying the damage mod. The same argument applies for any increase in base damage / elemental damage.

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

The idea of a proper additive modding is that modding against your strengths will not be less effective than modding to it.

No, that doesn't work. Adding 50 heat to opticor doesn't matter, but adding 5 fire rate will be absurdly strong. Increasing already-large stats has diminishing returns. That's unavoidable in an additive system. If you think it isn't, give a concrete example.

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

In response, multiplicative modding instead encourages rigidity as well. You only mod to strengths, and do not cover the weakness.

I agree with this somewhat. There's definitely a meta build that works on most good weapons right now. Crit, viral, multishot, damage, slash if possible, heat if not. Maybe some fire rate depending on the weapon. On the other hand,

On 2021-09-20 at 1:55 PM, CaptainMinty said:

The only way additive modding becomes so rigid is that the numbers are adjusted poorly.

There's going to be a lot of differences in modding between weapons. But for a given weapon, there's 100% going to be a meta build, and it's going to be how I described. Opticor will always run fire rate and never run damage increases, Grakata will always run damage increases and never run fire rate, etc.

The difference between the two systems in terms of "build diversity" is that in a multiplicative system you're going to be using mostly the same mods on a lot of weapons. In an additive system, you're going to have similar final stats on a lot of different weapons, because you have to bring up the bad stats to par and leave the good ones alone. There will still be some variation, but there won't be any weapons with super fast fire rate or super high damage per shot anymore. Basically a lot of weapons will play similarly, which I find more boring than having lacking build diversity.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

First off, don't put crit on a weapon with 3% base crit chance.

Of course not, we're not recommending Phantasma builds we're looking at the math and how things scale. I'm trying to compare the math and only the math as equally as possible.

8 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

And heat scales up over time without limit, so the proportion will rise asymptotically to 100%. You could probably swap in a bane to get even more damage from procs, but I don't use them.

Ah, that's what I wasn't considering. I forgot that Heat refreshes the timers on all of the stacks, so it doesn't actually have an uptime like all the other DoTs. But that makes it a bit hard to honestly compare it combined with regular DPS, no? Direct DPS doesn't scale in the same way at all so the two should probably be considered separately.

Edit: Which means the only comparison that should matter when looking at Heat is 1) can a weapon sustain it (proc it more than once every 6 seconds) and 2) can a weapon actually sustain it across reloads and 3) how fast does it grow if it can be sustained. Any other damage comparison is kind of meaningless if it can scale infinitely and be sustained forever. And as long as it can be sustained, adding a given amount of Status Chance will scale the growth rate by the same amount regardless of weapon. Comparing it as a percentage of total DPS seems a bit pointless when, like you say, the percentage will approach 100% over time. Comparing Gas and/or Electric would make more sense if we were looking at proc DPS as a component of total DPS, and in that case it'd follow the math I was showing before (given the minor variations in proc damage and timing across types) and there'd be a small difference in scaling depending on the base Status Chance stat. I guess it'd also make sense to look at Heat as a component of regular DPS, but that'd only make sense if it can't be sustained and grow infinitely.

So the correct breakdown when looking at procs should be:

1. "Regular" DPS: direct damage + Electric damage + Gas damage + Heat damage if it can't sustain
2. Armor-ignoring DPS: Slash damage
3. Shield-ignoring DPS: Toxin damage
4. Infinitely scaling DPS: Heat damage if it can sustain
5. How quickly the proc cap can be achieved for Puncture, Impact, Cold, Corrosive, Radiation, Viral, Magnetic, and Blast

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Comparing it as a percentage of total DPS seems a bit pointless when, like you say, the percentage will approach 100% over time.

Yes, it will grow over time. But suppose it didn't. Ignoring viral, my phantasma deals 108.70 heat procs per second (sustained) each dealing 4980.15 damage per tick. If all of those just tick 6 times and then stop forever, that's 3,248,113 damage per second from procs.  Meanwhile, the base damage of my build is 104,544.6 DPS. Clearly the vast majority of the damage is coming from procs; don't just seize on one aspect of my argument and attempt to use that to justify your position.

If you fire the Phantasma for 1 second and then stop, you won't actually be refreshing any timers because the first tick of damage has yet to occur. I have previously shown my calculations for the proportion of DPS to come from heat procs; it's 96.88%.

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Any other damage comparison is kind of meaningless if it can scale infinitely and be sustained forever.

I understand the sentiment, but enemies in this game don't have infinite health. Generally, you're going to be spending at most a couple of seconds per enemy, which doesn't let heat ramp up all that fast. That's why I'm sharing my calculations for "proportion of total DPS after 1 second of firing".

If enemies had a much higher TTK, then heat would have time to scale to 100% for any weapon. But they don't, and it doesn't. I agree that in that situation, talking about heat as a proportion of total DPS wouldn't make sense. Nevertheless, I think it's important to keep in mind the context in which all these numbers live.

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Clearly the vast majority of the damage is coming from procs; don't just seize on one aspect of my argument and attempt to use that to justify your position.

Can you just try this for me? Take the same mods you have on your Phantasma, and plug them in to some other shotguns. Maybe some that don't have the Phantasma or Phage's unusual Multishot scaling mechanics so it's a fair comparison. How about the MK1-Strun, the Sobek, and the Corinth Prime? Or whatever, it really doesn't matter.

1. How many times is the procs/sec multiplied on each?
2. What percentage of the damage procs are Heat?
3. How many times is the damage multiplied on each?

My position is this, and only this: the same amount of Status Chance will multiply the procs/sec the same on any weapon. The answer to the above three questions will be the same numbers for any given set of stats. I've shown this multiple times over across many different examples. And while you bring up a good point with looking at Status mods as a multiplier to total DPS, and while it turns out it does make a difference, the difference is small compared to the Crit scaling this thread is actually about.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

I understand the sentiment, but enemies in this game don't have infinite health.

Then why should the ability of a weapon to scale its Heat damage infinitely have any bearing on this discussion? Heat refreshing itself should make no difference if you're only looking at a 1s timescale. In which case I guess we can consider Heat alongside regular DPS like I had been earlier, which just means that while Status mods scale procs/sec and proc damage identically across all weapons, they do also scale the total DPS by different amounts depending on the base Status Chance. But it's not a very large amount so I remain unconvinced that if Crit were made additive then Status would need to be made additive too.

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

25 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Can you just try this for me? Take the same mods you have on your Phantasma, and plug them in to some other shotguns. Maybe some that don't have the Phantasma or Phage's unusual Multishot scaling mechanics so it's a fair comparison. How about the MK1-Strun, the Sobek, and the Corinth Prime? Or whatever, it really doesn't matter.

1. How many times is the procs/sec multiplied on each?
2. What percentage of the damage procs are Heat?
3. How many times is the damage multiplied on each?

1 and 2 are going to be the same for every weapon. I get that that is your point. I'm not sure what you mean by 3; do you mean how much is the modded DPS increased over the base DPS? Or do you mean how much extra damage comes from heat procs? I'm going to assume "how much extra damage comes from heat procs" since damage from status is what we've been primarily concerned with.

This assumes that the enemy has at least one of every possible proc from the weapon and max stacks from a damage arcane, but the final proportion isn't affected by that. Just all of the damage numbers. I also didn't bother calculating burst vs sustain because that will just scale a bunch of numbers by the weapon's uptime and it won't affect the final proportion.

Spoiler

Weapon	Base Multishot	Base Damage	Base Status	Base CC	Base CD	Fire rate	Unique Damage Types	Non-element damage	Modded Damage	Modded Multishot	Modded Status	Base DPS	Heat procs/sec	Dmg / proc	Dmg / sec / sec	1 sec proportion
MK-1 Strun	10	180	0.06	0.075	2	2.08	5	1656	5630.4	49.05	0.24	608902	14.95	2567	38382	0.27
Sobek	5	350	0.162	0.11	2	2.5	5	3220	10948	24.53	0.64	711524	24.26	4991	121098	0.51
Corinth Prime	6	540	0.09	0.3	2.8	1.42	5	4968	16891.2	29.43	0.36	748247	9.19	7700	70749	0.36

Kind of a long table, got a bit squashed. Hopefully still readable.

 

38 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

My position is this, and only this: the same amount of Status Chance will multiply the procs/sec the same on any weapon. The answer to the above three questions will be the same numbers for any given set of stats. I've shown this multiple times over across many different examples. And while you bring up a good point with looking at Status mods as a multiplier to total DPS, and while it turns out it does make a difference, the difference is small compared to the Crit scaling this thread is actually about.

I guess I'll go ahead and clearly state my position as well. Your primary concern in this thread has been that 1. Crit can give big multipliers, and 2. Crit mods disproportionately benefit weapons that already have good critical stats. The problem is that I'm not sure this argument doesn't just boil down to "all else being equal, it's better to have high crit stats."

I think this is especially true in Warframe because you generally don't have to compromise between having lots of crit, lots of status, and lots of damage. The Kuva Bramma, for example, has more than a thousand damage, high crit chance, above average crit multiplier, and above average status chance. If you've been looking around and seeing all of the meta builds using crit, it's probably because DE keeps releasing monstrous weapons that are strong in every category. Given the choice between "good crit and good status" or merely "good status", players choose the former.

Even still, there are some cases where the weapon's other stats are good enough to make up for lacking crit. Phantasma's my favorite example, but things like Proboscis Cernos are also popular.

If the thread was "DE, stop releasing ludicrously overpowered weapons", I'd have been on board, but I think that's the main reason why crit is meta right now. Not the weapon modding system.

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Can you just try this for me? Take the same mods you have on your Phantasma, and plug them in to some other shotguns. Maybe some that don't have the Phantasma or Phage's unusual Multishot scaling mechanics so it's a fair comparison. How about the MK1-Strun, the Sobek, and the Corinth Prime? Or whatever, it really doesn't matter.

1. How many times is the procs/sec multiplied on each?
2. What percentage of the damage procs are Heat?
3. How many times is the damage multiplied on each?

My position is this, and only this: the same amount of Status Chance will multiply the procs/sec the same on any weapon. The answer to the above three questions will be the same numbers for any given set of stats. I've shown this multiple times over across many different examples. And while you bring up a good point with looking at Status mods as a multiplier to total DPS, and while it turns out it does make a difference, the difference is small compared to the Crit scaling this thread is actually about.

Then why should the ability of a weapon to scale its Heat damage infinitely have any bearing on this discussion? Heat refreshing itself should make no difference if you're only looking at a 1s timescale. In which case I guess we can consider Heat alongside regular DPS like I had been earlier, which just means that while Status mods scale procs/sec and proc damage identically across all weapons, they do also scale the total DPS by different amounts depending on the base Status Chance. But it's not a very large amount so I remain unconvinced that if Crit were made additive then Status would need to be made additive too.

Dude , my man , friend , person with a very clear chip on his shoulder. I am sorry to see you keep bashing your head on your keyboard to prove your point to everyone that is having a disagreement with you.

you are really speaking in a very small vaccum that is only benefitting your narrow viewpoint and ignoring the bigger picture here, 

While you are correct (partially) that an instanced damage effect (damage done on impact of bullet/melee attack) over a sustained period is equal when you apply status proc mods between different weapons and much more significant when you apply crit mods to different weapons, you seem to ignore the scaling nature of status over time and the various procs utility at your disposal.

And not all procs are created equal and neither are all elements , status is not just damage boost - it is utility as well , heat definitely has one of the most effective scaling damage ( if any enemy can actually survive long enough to get a 100 heat procs on him from a reasonably strong weapon). while blast has some of the least preferred effects that is nearly useless in most scenarios (maybe if we had a archery competition it would be relevant?).

You are also being unfair by asking things like,

"Then why should the ability of a weapon to scale its Heat damage infinitely have any bearing on this discussion? "

Seriously , read that statement and you can realize how wrong it sounds in any argument, This sounds like a tantrum of a petulant child that is unable to have a proper discussion or accept a change in their viewpoint gracefully.

It will have a bearing on this discussion cause heat procs are still status procs and their effects have a bearing on any discussion related to status.

 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

 

• With one 90% Heat mod, Weapon A inflicts 4.74 Heat procs a second adding 3,376.42 Burst Heat Proc DPS.
  • This is 14,662.42 total Burst DPS (and 437.68 Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side).
• With one 90% Heat mod, Weapon B inflicts 10 Heat procs a second adding 7,128.00 Burst Heat Proc DPS.
  • This is 18,414.00 total Burst DPS.
• Adding a 90% Status Chance mod to Weapon A causes it to inflict 9 Heat procs a second (1.9x more) adding 6,415.20 Burst Heat Proc DPS (1.9x more).
  • This is 17,701.20 total Burst DPS (and 1.9x more Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side, too).
    • This is 1.21x more total Burst DPS than before.
• Adding a 90% Status Chance mod to Weapon A causes it to inflict 9 Heat procs a second (1.9x more) adding 6,415.20 Burst Heat Proc DPS (1.9x more).
  • This is 24,829.20 total Burst DPS (and 1.9x more Slash Proc Burst DPS on the side, too).
    • This is 1.35x more total Burst DPS than before.

 

I think you lost weapon B somewhere in your calculation regarding adding status mods.

edit: I'm also still not sure why you refer to or even use DoTs in a "burst" situation. Maybe it explains why you cant see what it people are trying to tell you. Napkin math doesnt apply in an actual game setting. Though you arent the first theory crafter in a game to fail to realize that.

[Reitrix]

I'm just going to slide in here between you blokes and clarify my position. 

My goal is not nerfing. Its a reduction in achievable numbers across the board. Naturally, enemy health and defenses would be adjusted accordingly. TTK Pre and post change would be the same for regular mission mobs. 

I want DE to fix how multipliers affect numbers (Starting with crit as it boosts damage by the largest factor). 
To put it in a visual way:
Changing multipliers so that a fully built weapon does 50k DPS at maximum forma investment instead of 500k.
Following, Change Armor/Shield Scaling so that TTK on average remains the same pre/post change for non-boss mission fodder enemies (Lancers, Crewman, Gunners etc). 

What does this change in the grand scheme of things?
Well we wouldn't need Grineer to achieve 99% DR, granting certain units (Looking at you Heavy Gunner) up to a million EHP. Would also fix some scaling issues frames like Hydroid has.
Bosses wouldn't need damage caps, Status caps or reduce us to Nihil level "mechanics" to prevent us from one shotting them. 

A good example of just how badly the various multipliers affect our damage is the Primary Vermisplicer.
On Overframe, go put together a Vermisplicer with maximum crit. On the build i use for mine, It achieves a 5.1 crit multiplier. 
Its base damage is a measly 491. 
But turn on all those modifiers and watch that 491 damage per 'bullet' become 130k DPS. 
Now, just remove the Vital Sense, putting its multplier back to 2.3. That DPS falls to 59k. 

The math says the damage would be doubled. Great. But the problem was never the formula, It was the numbers themselves. 

I would actually be perfectly happy if they removed Critical Damage entirely as a mod option in the current environment. Run it all off the base crit multiplier of the weapon. 

The Vermisplicer can also be used as an example of how much better Crit is in general.
In the example above, I used a full Crit build. But what happens if we go with a full status one instead?
Vermisplicer being a Kitgun allows us the oppurtunity to actually change the crit and status while keeping all gun mechanics and base damage the same. 
So what happens?
A Vermisplicer built for full Status achieves a whopping  44k DPS with all the same modifiers as the crit one excepting the actual crits. Despite going to 171% Status Chance

But we see something interesting here, As the difference now between the 2 setups is only 15k when the crit based Vermisplicer has Vital Sense removed. If you slide Heavy Calibur in its place, It goes to 69k DPS, pulling the gap out to 25k.
Which is still within a decent range, as the Status ticks afford a playstyle difference of loading up a target with status and trusting that status to kill while you move on. 

Unfortunately, It also shows the harsh disparity  between building a gun with Crit vs building for Status, As the gap widens into a chasm of 44k vs 130k. Almost tripling the Status build. 
The DoT damage being tied to damage dealt rather than base damage also means a crit build triggering a Slash/Heat etc proc is going to deal significantly more damage per proc than a Status build.
Status cant Crit, But Crits can Status lol. 

But yeah. Enough rambling from me, Sorry for the wall of text. 

tl:dr i guess. Fix modifiers to bring our numbers down while also fixing the absurd defenses on enemies s our TTK doesnt change so we have a much smoother play experience with a wider variety of viable weapons and Frames. 

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

tl:dr i guess. Fix modifiers to bring our numbers down while also fixing the absurd defenses on enemies s our TTK doesnt change so we have a much smoother play experience with a wider variety of viable weapons and Frames. 

Yep, agreed. I think the biggest benefit to a harsh crit reduction and enemy adjustment would be that several frames would suddenly get useful powers in their kit. Many would stop going from worthwhile to useless after a certain level. For instance, Volt goes from a nice and fun AoE frame in lower content to a pure CC frame and buffer later on. Same deal with Banshee and others.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

The Vermisplicer can also be used as an example of how much better Crit is in general.
In the example above, I used a full Crit build. But what happens if we go with a full status one instead?Vermisplicer being a Kitgun allows us the oppurtunity to actually change the crit and status while keeping all gun mechanics and base damage the same. 
So what happens?
A Vermisplicer built for full Status achieves a whopping  44k DPS with all the same modifiers as the crit one excepting the actual crits. Despite going to 171% Status Chance

Overframe doesn't attempt to calculate proc damage for the most part or damage magnification via Viral.  (An exception is it does give a damage weight to Hunter Munitions.  Which is amusing in this context.)

I'm not saying your essential point is wrong--the fact is I don't know either way--but Overframe dps numbers are not a tool for calculating whatever disparity there is.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

For instance, Volt goes from a nice and fun AoE frame in lower content to a pure CC frame and buffer later on. Same deal with Banshee and others.

It's so rare to hear Banshee apparently referred to as a "fun" AoE frame in any context. 😄

[PublikDomain]

18 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

3; do you mean how much is the modded DPS increased over the base DPS?

Direct DPS, whatever the weapon itself deals, since that's going to be the same too. My larger point has been that mods tend to produce the same multipliers to a stat regardless of the value of the base stat. It's the case for Damage, Multishot, Elemental Damage, Fire Rate, even Status Chance - with the exception to the total DPS comparison you've brought up. Crit is the biggest exception, where better weapons get much bigger multipliers from the mods themselves. Edit: And just to be more clear, the multipliers I mean are the ones produced when dividing the modded values by the base. Not the actual modded value, the change in modded value.

18 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

  Hide contents

 

Weapon	Base Multishot	Base Damage	Base Status	Base CC	Base CD	Fire rate	Unique Damage Types	Non-element damage	Modded Damage	Modded Multishot	Modded Status	Base DPS	Heat procs/sec	Dmg / proc	Dmg / sec / sec	1 sec proportion
MK-1 Strun	10	180	0.06	0.075	2	2.08	5	1656	5630.4	49.05	0.24	608902	14.95	2567	38382	0.27
Sobek	5	350	0.162	0.11	2	2.5	5	3220	10948	24.53	0.64	711524	24.26	4991	121098	0.51
Corinth Prime	6	540	0.09	0.3	2.8	1.42	5	4968	16891.2	29.43	0.36	748247	9.19	7700	70749	0.36

Kind of a long table, got a bit squashed. Hopefully still readable.

Thank you! The formatting is fine, about as good as we can get with this forum software lol. It really doesn't like tables.

So from the chart you can see what I've been saying: with the same set of mods the MK1-Strun's Status Chance went up 4x, the Sobek's Status Chance went up 4x, and the Corinth Prime's Status Chance went up 4x. So you added ~300% Status Chance (it looks like the last digit got rounded out of the Modded Status table). If you took the ~300% Status Chance out of the equation (just the stat itself, not the other stats from the mods themselves) then these guns would have 1/4 the Status Chance, deal 1/4 as many total Procs/sec, meaning 1/4 as many Heat procs/sec, meaning 1/4 as much dmg/sec/sec. I don't know if you modeled it, but they'll also reach the 10x cap of Impact/Puncture/Viral procs 1/4 as quickly, and if they can't sustain 10x procs they'll be able to sustain 1/4 as many, inflict 1/4 as many Slash procs, and deal 1/4 as much combined Slash damage from those fewer Slash procs. So like I've been saying the Status Chance multiplies procs/sec by the same amount regardless of base stats.

This is the same for the modded damage, too. The MK1-Strun goes from 180 to 5630.4, a 31.28x increase. The Sobek goes from 350 to 10948, a 31.28x increase. The Corinth Prime goes from 540 to 16819.2, a 31.146x increase (guessing something was lost to rounding). Like I've been saying all of the Damage/Multishot/Elemental Damage multiplies total damage the same amount regardless of base stats.

But if we look at the ~300% Status Chance as a total multiplier to damage like you suggested, then there are some differences and I'm perfectly happy to accept that. I think there's still something to be said about comparing Heat to direct DPS, but if it's over a 1s timescale it shouldn't behave any differently than Electric so in this case it's probably fine.

Weapon	Base DPS	Heat procs/sec	Dmg / sec / sec	Total DPS	Dmg/sec/sec w/o Status	Total DPS w/o Status	DPS multiplier
MK-1 Strun	608,902.00	14.95	38,382.00	647,284.00	9,595.50	618,497.50	1.05
Sobek	711,524.00	24.26	121,098.00	832,622.00	30,274.50	741,798.50	1.12
Corinth Prime	748,247.00	9.19	70,749.00	818,996.00	17,687.25	765,934.25	1.07

If we take out the ~300% Status Chance from the equation then the base DPS will remain unchanged, but the number of procs will be 1/4 as much and add 1/4 as much damage. So because only part of the total is changed, there is some uneven scaling between weapons and this does create a different overall multiplier depending on the base Status Chance of each weapon. You can see that the Sobek gets the largest multiplier since it has the highest base Status Chance, while the MK1-Strun gets the lowest.

But this multiplier is pretty small. Even with the Phantasma it was only getting an ~1.3x multiplier. So I don't know if this comparison is very concerning or actually needs addressing.

18 hours ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

I guess I'll go ahead and clearly state my position as well. Your primary concern in this thread has been that 1. Crit can give big multipliers, and 2. Crit mods disproportionately benefit weapons that already have good critical stats. The problem is that I'm not sure this argument doesn't just boil down to "all else being equal, it's better to have high crit stats."

My concern is only #2. Big numbers are fine, I don't care if the Rubico Prime gets 100x damage from crits or if a weapon produces 1,000 procs/sec, as long as whatever multipliers from mods that got it there is the same - or similar - regardless of weapon. The math behind modding and how it scales should be fair, and generally is fair with only a few exceptions. Status looks to be fair, too: there's one comparison where it isn't perfectly equal but the multipliers produced are pretty tame, at least in comparison to crit.

So I don't really know how to respond to what you said after this since it's not really something that bothers me, at least within the context of this thread. Ludicrously overpowered weapons being released all the time bothers me for totally separate reasons :P

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But if we look at the ~300% Status Chance as a total multiplier to damage like you suggested, then there are some differences and I'm perfectly happy to accept that. I think there's still something to be said about comparing Heat to direct DPS, but if it's over a 1s timescale it shouldn't behave any differently than Electric so in this case it's probably fine.

Generally I've been calculating damage as though you fire the gun for one second and then stop, including the heat procs continuing to tick and then expire. That's just from my experience playing with status weapons, where you can generally stop shooting an enemy well before it actually dies. That's probably why my "proportion of total damage coming from heat" is higher than the numbers you're calculating here. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to just look at the first tick of damage.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

My concern is only #2. Big numbers are fine, I don't care if the Rubico Prime gets 100x damage from crits or if a weapon produces 1,000 procs/sec, as long as whatever multipliers from mods that got it there is the same - or similar - regardless of weapon. The math behind modding and how it scales should be fair, and generally is fair with only a few exceptions.

I guess, but if every weapon got the same (or similar) multipliers from the same mods we'd go from not having much modding diversity to having no mod diversity, and that'd be kind of disappointing to me. I suppose I just don't think it's a desirable goal for mods to give the same benefit to each weapon.

[PublikDomain]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

Generally I've been calculating damage as though you fire the gun for one second and then stop, including the heat procs continuing to tick and then expire. That's just from my experience playing with status weapons, where you can generally stop shooting an enemy well before it actually dies. That's probably why my "proportion of total damage coming from heat" is higher than the numbers you're calculating here. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to just look at the first tick of damage.

If it's one second, it's only got time to tick once though? Maybe I misread your table, I wasn't sure quite how you were reaching your 1 sec percentage. I can recalculate the multipliers but I'd think it'll still be in that 1-1.3x kind of range.

26 minutes ago, (PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1 said:

I guess, but if every weapon got the same (or similar) multipliers from the same mods we'd go from not having much modding diversity to having no mod diversity, and that'd be kind of disappointing to me. I suppose I just don't think it's a desirable goal for mods to give the same benefit to each weapon.

Just about all mods already give the same benefit to each weapon, though. Crit's one of the very few exceptions. And while I can't disagree that making crit's scaling more even for all weapons would probably reduce modding diversity, it'd also benefit the "weaker" weapons that tend to have poor crit stats and that would make them more viable as choices. Modding diversity is already poor, but so is weapon selection diversity and I think that's in large part to the huge advantage crit gives to the pure crit and crit hybrids that can make the most use of it. So it's sacrificing the diversity of one already-not-diverse system to increase diversity/parity of another.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's so rare to hear Banshee apparently referred to as a "fun" AoE frame in any context. 😄

It was a bad choice of words to use prior to mentioning Spamshee.😛

Fun is really not her thing, atleast not with quake.

[(PSN)BillyBobJoeBro1]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If it's one second, it's only got time to tick once though? Maybe I misread your table, I wasn't sure quite how you were reaching your 1 sec percentage. I can recalculate the multipliers but I'd think it'll still be in that 1-1.3x kind of range.

Generally you shoot the enemy, then stop shooting and move on to a different enemy before they die. The first enemy will die from the status damage over time.

Edit:

It might be more helpful to think of it as "total damage dealt from 1 second of firing", rather than "damage caused in the first second from firing"

[DCaedus]

How about no

[BahamutKaiser]

I thought this was a Necro thread, if Soma Prime vaporized enemies when the barrel passed over enemies, without firing rounds, it would still fall behind Meta weapons. If your not arguing that Soma Prime needs a buff, you know nothing about the Meta.