Balance and Nerfing are for pvp...

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

Just because players find new ways to become a BAD A** doesnt mean it should be taken away or downgraded. This game is a power fantasy RPG. If anything we need new ways to F*** up our enemies. If you are worried about players using broken builds to cheese the game, boo hoo who really cares? Everyone just wants to weild immense power and dominate the field of battle. If you nerfed Conclave then id be on board because it involves ruining the experince for another player by making it an unfair advantage. Who really plays PVP though? WARFRAME is PVE based through and through. So make your weapons cool and your powers cooler stop treating the enemies like they need protection. Whos side are you on lol?

[Aldain]

No they aren't.

They're for both, and many games over the years have proven this time and again.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

Everyone just wants to weild immense power ajd dominate the field of battle

'Everyone wants it' doesn't mean it's a good thing for the long-term health of the game. Largely because everyone wants the quickest, easiest, least impactful way to this with no problems, hiccups, obstacles and in the straightest line possible. In other words, the most boring way possible.

To use a analogy, what people want is to be Bilbo Baggins going to Erebor and finding the one ring along the way. What they don't want is to have to fall into Gollum's pit and have to partake in riddles in the dark, or to need to hide from Smaug. Because these things aren't the 'power fantasy'. If these people wrote the Hobbit, it would go "13 dwarves and a wizard get invited to tea by Bilbo" (Because, after all, we can't have Bilbo be inconvenienced or stressed by the Dwarves barging in if we're maximising protagonist power and agency) "They all decided it'd be quite pleasant to go and reclaim Erebor from Smaug, chiefest and greatest of calamities. So they set out to do just that. On the way, a friendly chap named Gollum offered to give Bilbo a magic ring. Once they got there, Bilbo stabbed Smaug, and then he went home in time for dinner. The end."

In other words, what people want is a power fantasy, overcoming incredible odds and great trials. They don't realise, however, that incredible odds and great trials means that they're going to have to have problems on the way, and won't always have a direct solution to the problem.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

I dont mod for easy cheesy I mod for fun so let it be our choice if we want to farm and work for a easy win build or a fun gimmicky one. There will always be a way to cheese a game it wont stop but when its fun why take that away? Some warframes have be nerfed to embarassing levels glad lots of them were redone. This game has had such a crazy journey and everytime I feel powerful and dominate with a cool build i make i get afraid that it will be taken away if its too Fun.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Nothing gets actually nerfed in the game, there are adjustments. 

Like you said...it's a power fantasy game right? 

That's why the enemies are easy, and all the stuff people think is bad because it was "nerfed" is still useable like the catch moon and Nukor and bramma.

So what exactly can't you use now?

[MystMan]

We're going to need some examples here. What exactly got nerfed in the main game because of Conclave?   AFAIK all weapons get completely different stats in Conclave without affecting its Star chart counterpart.  And if that is not possible, the weapon simply gets removed altogether from Conclave.

If something gets nerfed, it was because it was TOO powerful or exploitative, not because of conclave.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

Well one the Staticor never used to stagger so now primed surefooted is needed to get max damge without worrying about fall off damage. Another thing is with Limbo he gets posioned in the rift now. AOE damage effects Zephyr. Riven Disposition really messes with builds. Im not sure when amprex will be great again. Some weapons just need to be better on par with other weapons. Balancing is difficult though. Maybe just balance lower tier weapons instead of nerfing the good ones. Brama, Cedo, Kitguns, Kronen, they all are really powerful but the fist weapons or the scindo or the bo prime, they are underwhelming even when modded well.

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, MystMan said:

If something gets nerfed, it was because it was TOO powerful or exploitative

The problem is the entire argument of "Only PvP games need balance and nerfs so there is no such thing as too powerful or exploitative" is a flawed concept.

Take a look at say, Final Fantasy 14, almost strictly a PvE MMO, but it is rigorously balanced across all levels and is undergoing a stat squish because the numbers were starting to get obtusely uncontrollable and causing over/underflow bugs at times.

If we applied the "Only PvP games need balance" logic to that, there wouldn't be encounters or likely even the usual holy trinity setup of tank/healer/dps, just whatever is the most powerful spamming damage and making mechanics pointless.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

11 minutes ago, MystMan said:

We're going to need some examples here. What exactly got nerfed in the main game because of Conclave?   AFAIK all weapons get completely different stats in Conclave without affecting its Star chart counterpart.  And if that is not possible, the weapon simply gets removed altogether from Conclave.

If something gets nerfed, it was because it was TOO powerful or exploitative, not because of conclave.

What are you talking about man? I said id undersrand if conclave got nerfs due to the player impact structure. I didnt say conclave caused anything to be nerfed. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

Well one the Staticor never used to stagger so now primed surefooted is needed to get max damge without worrying about fall off damage. Another thing is with Limbo he gets posioned in the rift now. AOE damage effects Zephyr. Riven Disposition really messes with builds. Im not sure when amprex will be great again. Some weapons just need to be better on par with other weapons. Balancing is difficult though. Maybe just balance lower tier weapons instead of nerfing the good ones. Brama, Cedo, Kitguns, Kronen, they all are really powerful but the fist weapons or the scindo or the bo prime, they are underwhelming even when modded well.

Aoe should have some drawbacks. Welcome to basic game mechanics. If all you have to do is put on a mod to use aoe you have nothing to complain about.

Try a magus repair for limbo or one of the 1000 other ways to heal yourself.

Zephyr blocks projectiles and is affected by splash damage like everything else. Gonna have to deal with it. You should be happy you've mitigated most of the damage in the first place.

Popular weapons have low dispos for a reason. 

All melee was buffed so the scindo and bo are just fine. You may need to work on your build specifically.

[MystMan]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

What are you talking about man? I said id undersrand if conclave got nerfs due to the player impact structure. I didnt say conclave caused anything to be nerfed. 

ok it seems I didn't understand what you were saying in your first post. The mention of pvp threw me off. 

As for why nerfs happen in general, when something becomes way too effective it eliminates the need for personalized game styles and 90% of the game content becomes obsolete when everybody goes meta. 
Waaaaay back Zorencopter was a thing.  In pub sessions, I always saw everybody using that thing. Always.  It made all other melee weapons non-existant, I felt like a rare duck actually daring to use something else.

Right now, I can't tell you what is the most used frame/primary/secondary/melee in the pub sessions I enter, because I always see a great variation of tools being used. I find that to be a good thing.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The problem is the entire argument of "Only PvP games need balance and nerfs so there is no such thing as too powerful or exploitative" is a flawed concept.

Take a look at say, Final Fantasy 14, almost strictly a PvE MMO, but it is rigorously balanced across all levels and is undergoing a stat squish because the numbers were starting to get obtusely uncontrollable and causing over/underflow bugs at times.

If we applied the "Only PvP games need balance" logic to that, there wouldn't be encounters or likely even the usual holy trinity setup of tank/healer/dps, just whatever is the most powerful spamming damage and making mechanics pointless.

I can wreck anything with ash in the billions of damage range using stealth and combo counter modifiers. Xaku can one shot lv 9999 corrupted enemies. Equinox and Octavia are absolute monsters. With the right build synergies this games missons on any difficutly can be obliterated. The feeling of the work put into building a monster that delivers is amazing.This game in particular doesnt need to be heavily nerfed just balanced so that all weapons and frames have potiential in some way. I started this thread because i see people complaining how now a weapon or ability is too powerful. I bet the person using it is having a blast though. Its not impacting a player if someone is too powerful. Saryn is still unchanged she is DPS. I get excited when im in a mission with a player who has an OP build. I hope they get to keep it. I mean if the game needs nerfed because its causing game corruption and glitches ok id agree with that. Just dont hamper the fun thats what games are for. Especially since so much effort and time goes into our builds.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

This game in particular doesnt need to be heavily nerfed just balanced so that all weapons and frames have potiential in some way.

By what route? Turning every frame into a different flavor of Xaku, Octavia Sayrn (etc) and all weapons into different skins of the Kuva Bramma or Phantasma?

At the levels of power we can reach that's the only endgame, those options ECLIPSE any competition, the only routes that can be taken would be to make them basically the same as what is eclipsing them, like a Solar System made entirely out of Sun sized stars.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Aoe should have some drawbacks. Welcome to basic game mechanics. If all you have to do is put on a mod to use aoe you have nothing to complain about.

Try a magus repair for limbo or one of the 1000 other ways to heal yourself.

Zephyr blocks projectiles and is affected by splash damage like everything else. Gonna have to deal with it. You should be happy you've mitigated most of the damage in the first place.

Popular weapons have low dispos for a reason. 

All melee was buffed so the scindo and bo are just fine. You may need to work on your build specifically.

You make me feel like im Anne Hathaway and you are Stanley Tucci. I know you are disgusted but I still think I look pretty.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

27 minutes ago, Aldain said:

By what route? Turning every frame into a different flavor of Xaku, Octavia Sayrn (etc) and all weapons into different skins of the Kuva Bramma or Phantasma?

At the levels of power we can reach that's the only endgame, those options ECLIPSE any competition, the only routes that can be taken would be to make them basically the same as what is eclipsing them, like a Solar System made entirely out of Sun sized stars.

I didnt say to make them the same i just said give them potential. Some need more skill but can be just as effective in the right enviroment. One thing that I think should be done is for the dual daggers and fist weapkons to be better. Compared to other weapons the are pretty terrible. Melee was buffed nerfed whatever. On steel path daggers and fists dont do well by themselves unless you are doing constant finishers or have an insane riven but even then. To have entire weapon classes be obsolete compared to others kinda sucks. Kronen Prime is insane I use it but there are plenty of weapons thst need help. Its the slash being better than puncture or impact in most cases. You have to have really good impact or puncture damage to outclass a decent slash weapon. Nyx is outclassed by Loki in almost eveyway. She has her mind control and her sheild without the augment her 4th is a joke. Chroma has two good abilities. Saryn has all good abilities. There shouldnt be Warframes with useless abilities no one uses. Excalibur has two good abilities. Equinox all theirs are useful I could go on. The game needs good weapons in each weapon class so that all styles are viable. Warframes need to get rid of throw away abilities or were they there just to reduce guilt with the Helmnith system?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

I didnt say to make them the same i just said give them potential. Some need more skill but can be just as effective in the right enviroment. One thing that I think should be done is for the dual daggers and fist weapkons to be better. Compared to other weapons the are pretty terrible. Melee was buffed nerfed whatever. On steel path daggers and fists dont do well by themselves unless you are doing constant finishers or have an insane riven but even then. To have entire weapon classes be obsolete compared to others kinda sucks. Kronen Prime is insane I use it but there are plenty of weapons thst need help. Its the slash being better than puncture or impact in most cases. You have to have really good impact or puncture damage to outclass a decent slash weapon. Nyx is outclassed by Loki in almost eveyway. She has her mind control and her sheild without the augment her 4th is a joke. Chroma has two good abilities. Saryn has all good abilities. There shouldnt be Warframes with useless abilities no one uses. Excalibur has two good abilities. Equinox all theirs are useful I could go on. The game needs good weapons in each weapon class so that all styles are viable. Warframes need to get rid of throw away abilities or were they there just to reduce guilt with the Helmnith system?

You're confusing your own personal likes and dislikes and skill level and applying it to the game overall. 

What you think is useless is not to someone else.

You need to find a frame and weapon you like because everything in the game isn't specifically catered to you.

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

what people want is a power fantasy, overcoming incredible odds and great trials. They don't realise, however, that incredible odds and great trials means that they're going to have to have problems on the way, and won't always have a direct solution to the problem

What you want, you mean. I don't want that kind of power fantasy of overcoming incredible odds and great trials. I had enough problems in real life and I don't want to face more problems in a game. Heck, if I can do exterminatus in one finger snap, I would take it in a heartbeat. That's my power fantasy

[AJAL8000]

The idea of balancing and nerfing is that there is more variety. Otherwise, we would all be using the same weapon, the same method of killing, the same Warframe, the same way of completing the mission, etc. [DE] wants there to be variety (which in my case I also like to see variety and that not everyone is using the same weapons).

Another thing, nerfing is basically to protect the fun in the game (although many times they do it wrong, it must be said).

If the game had weapons or Warframes that make you pass the mission almost without touching the keyboard. Then we found ourselves in the problem that the game would become MORE repetitive and boring than it is now.

The idea of a video game is to have some kind of challenge that is rewarding and fun to achieve, if we directly remove the challenge by not nerfing anything, everyone would be falling asleep in the middle of the missions.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

1 hour ago, AJAL8000 said:

The idea of balancing and nerfing is that there is more variety. Otherwise, we would all be using the same weapon, the same method of killing, the same Warframe, the same way of completing the mission, etc. [DE] wants there to be variety (which in my case I also like to see variety and that not everyone is using the same weapons).

Another thing, nerfing is basically to protect the fun in the game (although many times they do it wrong, it must be said).

If the game had weapons or Warframes that make you pass the mission almost without touching the keyboard. Then we found ourselves in the problem that the game would become MORE repetitive and boring than it is now.

The idea of a video game is to have some kind of challenge that is rewarding and fun to achieve, if we directly remove the challenge by not nerfing anything, everyone would be falling asleep in the middle of the missions.

I dont believe anything has ever been Nerfed that has been "Overpowered" in Warframe. Yes there are Warframes and weapons that make it easier to win but if you slip up with any build in high levels you can die. Invisibility with Loki Ash Ivara is the ultimate defense or invulnerability with Rhino or Limbo. Nyx for example relies on energy to keep her protected in high levels. Energy drops to 0 with a big enough hit which equals death. Movement speed reduction makes it all the more useless. It just turns into a button to flail your limbs while losing 700 energy in 1 second. Its odd the ones that are nerfed are the one trick Warframes. But the strongest Warframes are those with multiple skills that outclass other warframes in every category which is weird. It would be better of we could pick our appearance while mixing abilities in each category. That is another discussion. We can agree to disagree on the fact that all weapon types should have a top tier competitor with other favored weapons. All games if you spend enough time gathering materials and doing the hard missions you can become OP because it's your reward for the hard work. It feels like this game let's you start out as a rouge with knives doing the easy missions the says ok now you have to be a paladin to continue. Throw away your knives and sell out for better equipment forget the fun of the class you chose. Choice matters when roleplaying. That is what keeps a game going. After you have completed all the content, still being able to utilize unlimited combinations keeps things fresh. However being forced into a meta to compete sucks. I take back the saying about balancing cause it needs it but in the opposite way and increasing the potential of all lower tier weapons and warframes. 

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, MystMan said:

As for why nerfs happen in general, when something becomes way too effective it eliminates the need for personalized game styles and 90% of the game content becomes obsolete when everybody goes meta. 

This can be corrected by making everything else just as Effective as the Meta...

Nerfing the Meta just shifts it the next Meta... Nerf that and the process repeats itself... And so on and so forth...

Nerfing something just because it's good at the thing it was designed to do is not Balance... It's just Misguided.

9 hours ago, MystMan said:

Waaaaay back Zorencopter was a thing.  In pub sessions, I always saw everybody using that thing. Always.  It made all other melee weapons non-existant, I felt like a rare duck actually daring to use something else.

I wish I could see just how far you could go with Coptering...

9 hours ago, MystMan said:

 

Right now, I can't tell you what is the most used frame/primary/secondary/melee in the pub sessions I enter, because I always see a great variation of tools being used. I find that to be a good thing.

This almost makes it sound like you just want to control what other people use 🤔

9 hours ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

Just dont hamper the fun thats what games are for. Especially since so much effort and time goes into our builds.

This is a good point... 

9 hours ago, Aldain said:

By what route? Turning every frame into a different flavor of Xaku, Octavia Sayrn (etc) and all weapons into different skins of the Kuva Bramma or Phantasma?

Unfortunately that's what DE is doing already... Warframe's and even weapons are starting to become more Homogenized because of the only thing that matters in content now is your Ability to kill lots of enemies... 

 

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're confusing your own personal likes and dislikes and skill level and applying it to the game overall. 

What you think is useless is not to someone else.

You need to find a frame and weapon you like because everything in the game isn't specifically catered to you.

That is what I do but the things that I like are underwhelming compared to meta weapons. I have been playing since launch. There are just fun weapons and frames that just don't hold a candle to other frames or weapons. I have put in practice the different damage output of Scindo vs Galantine or Gram. Fists are all underwhelming. Daggers are also terrible. Those are just some examples from recent memory. When in high levels damage matters and they don't do well. They are whole classes of weapon that are out performed. Ankyros prime with a high crit high damage high crit damage still sucks compared to Nikana prime or Kronen without a Riven. 

[NekroArts]

47 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This can be corrected by making everything else just as Effective as the Meta...

Nerfing the Meta just shifts it the next Meta... Nerf that and the process repeats itself... And so on and so forth...

Nerfing something just because it's good at the thing it was designed to do is not Balance... It's just Misguided

Nerfing the meta, specifically the outliers, is to bring them into that stable area. The meta shifting to another and it too got nerf, good chances are it was also an outlier. These outliers are the reason why we're seeing more "bs" mechanics - huge damage reduction, more immunity phases, more cc against us, etc. The nerfing of the outliers is to bring them into that stable area; in that stable area, the less likely we have to deal with "bs" mechanics. 

Buffing the weapons to that of the outliers means that we're mostly going to be stuck with those mechanics and get new ones in future updates. Good chances are when it's our turn to play the New War (as Warframes and not Grineer, Corpus, and Teshin) we're going to see similar and possibly new "bs" mechanics.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Nerfing the meta, specifically the outliers, is to bring them into that stable area.

Being Meta doesn't mean it's Unstable 😐... 

Actually you know what... It actually does... But the instability is within the alternative options not being as effective as the Meta...

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

These outliers are the reason why we're seeing more "bs" mechanics - huge damage reduction, more immunity phases, more cc against us, etc.

And those things are the Exact reason why you are seeing more AoE Weapons and Self Buffing Warframe Abilities.... They are Creating the Outliers. This is generally how Pretty much many Game Designers operate... When something is wrong with the Game the fix comes in the form of a Feature or Content.... The problem is since that fix isn't being Applied Universally (or atleast on a larger scale, Universal Changes are usually bad)... You then wind up with Outliers.... Then Somebody complains that Their Pair of Scissors is too good at Cutting Things and then it gets Nerfed because it was doing what it was designed to do... 

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

 

Buffing the weapons to that of the outliers means that we're mostly going to be stuck with those mechanics and get new ones in future updates.

We are going to be Stuck with them Regardless... 

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Good chances are when it's our turn to play the New War (as Warframes and not Grineer, Corpus, and Teshin) we're going to see similar and possibly new "bs" mechanics.

This I can agree with....

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

That is what I do but the things that I like are underwhelming compared to meta weapons. I have been playing since launch. There are just fun weapons and frames that just don't hold a candle to other frames or weapons. I have put in practice the different damage output of Scindo vs Galantine or Gram. Fists are all underwhelming. Daggers are also terrible. Those are just some examples from recent memory. When in high levels damage matters and they don't do well. They are whole classes of weapon that are out performed. Ankyros prime with a high crit high damage high crit damage still sucks compared to Nikana prime or Kronen without a Riven. 

The game isn't built around high levels....all those weapons do fine against level 200 steel path. 

If you want to go to level 3000 that's your responsibility to handle that.

[UilliamNebel]

18 hours ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

Just because players find new ways to become a BAD A** doesnt mean it should be taken away or downgraded. This game is a power fantasy RPG. If anything we need new ways to F*** up our enemies. If you are worried about players using broken builds to cheese the game, boo hoo who really cares? Everyone just wants to weild immense power and dominate the field of battle. If you nerfed Conclave then id be on board because it involves ruining the experince for another player by making it an unfair advantage. Who really plays PVP though? WARFRAME is PVE based through and through. So make your weapons cool and your powers cooler stop treating the enemies like they need protection. Whos side are you on lol?

Agree with much. said here,

That said, other players motives to play, in no small number, is not about the game completely. Its about their ability to not merely interact with other players, but to have effect and consequence on other's experience of the game.

Right, wrong, whatever. For some, their enjoyment of the game, and willingness to put real world money into it, is directly tied into how they can have effect on you. And there are enough to make it seem profitable (It isn't) for them to treat as their market (they aren't).

I am a rarity, I like to play Warframe stealthily, slowly, like I am playing the classic Tenchu series of games. When people say 'balance' in a 'space ninja' game, with lots of Ka Boom run and gun dynamics, I find it hilarious.

I understand that is their paly style, the one DE caters to with literally a catalog of Warframes that half of could disappear (even more so of the weapons) and nothing of value would be lost. If more players understood how DE commoditizes 'game balance' like it does, they'd beg for a completely 'broken' version of WF. There is a reason DE will never nuke the Riven Market, there is also a reason a lot of players wouldn't stand for it either, despite the horrid unbalancing rivens open the door to. So in my estimation, no, no one, especially DE, actually give a damn about balance. For DE, 'balancing' is a way to introduce gating, gating of progress, virtual items, etc, etc, and introduce commodities they sell to mitigate that artificial gating, its the game's main business strategy. And they over do it, horridly, like all the other come and gone MMORPGs.