Balance and Nerfing are for pvp...

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The game isn't built around high levels....all those weapons do fine against level 200 steel path. 

If you want to go to level 3000 that's your responsibility to handle that.

I am talking about steel path man... it takes me around 13 hits with Ankyros prime buffed with a Riven high cc cd md blood rush with combo counter at 12 to kill a regular corrupted enemy at level 160. While with Kronen 1 hit with basic modding and combo counter at 0. The difference is big. Daggers are even worse. Kronen Prime with a Riven I can take on any enemy. Same with Reaper prime. Don't get me started with Redeemer Prime...

Any well put together Zaw or kitgun is great imo. Maybe they should increase the weapon types for Zaws and Kitguns  to fix the competitive difference in weapon classes. Tonfa, Scythe, Nikana, Gunblade, Cedo, Acceltra, Moon Kit and others we all know outclass nearly everything.

The helminth system has helped bad Warframes do much better but it could be improved. I hope they increase the customization options in the future.

 

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Unfortunately that's what DE is doing already... Warframe's and even weapons are starting to become more Homogenized because of the only thing that matters in content now is your Ability to kill lots of enemies... 

Because they're appealing to this very demographic. The fact of the matter is, unchallenged power is, by nature, linear and homogenised. It's why Dragon Ball went from Goku being allowed to come up with goofy techniques like using his tail as a Helicopter and using the Kamehameha to rocket boost himself to fights which are only distinguishable because the colours of the two fighting are different. The series has only ever been able to do anything more creative by applying new limits to the protagonists, and even then, usually these fights are resolved by 'blowing them up' later anyway.

The playerbase seeks every increasing 'power'. They want no challenges or restrictions. This, by necessity, requires that frames and weapons are homogenous, because a single target weapon, or a crowd-control, or stealth or even glass cannon nuker can't compete with the numerous 'jack of all trades, can do anything' frames and armour-busting Area of Effect weapons.

12 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

What you want, you mean. I don't want that kind of power fantasy of overcoming incredible odds and great trials. I had enough problems in real life and I don't want to face more problems in a game. Heck, if I can do exterminatus in one finger snap, I would take it in a heartbeat. That's my power fantasy

If you don't want any challenges to face, then you don't want to play a game, or at least you want to play one that whittles the term to the nub of its meaning. A game can, ultimately, be boiled down to a string of pseudo-meaningful choices. For those choices to exist and mean something, there has to be stakes, and a difference between two outcomes. An unchallenged protagonist has no meaningful choices in forwards progression. You either continue to progress forward, or you do not. These are the choices presented by idle games - not infrequently, the 'progress forwards' choice is monetised by progression blocks, or by different aesthetics to it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

I am talking about steel path man... it takes me around 13 hits with Ankyros prime buffed with a Riven high cc cd md blood rush with combo counter at 12 to kill a regular corrupted enemy at level 160. While with Kronen 1 hit with basic modding and combo counter at 0. The difference is big. Daggers are even worse. Kronen Prime with a Riven I can take on any enemy. Same with Reaper prime. Don't get me started with Redeemer Prime...

Any well put together Zaw or kitgun is great imo. Maybe they should increase the weapon types for Zaws and Kitguns  to fix the competitive difference in weapon classes. Tonfa, Scythe, Nikana, Gunblade, Cedo, Acceltra, Moon Kit and others we all know outclass nearly everything.

The helminth system has helped bad Warframes do much better but it could be improved. I hope they increase the customization options in the future.

 

Cool story, got any proof? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

1 hit at 0x with a kronen huh? Totally one shot the enemy right? And I'm assuming your Ankyros was magically at 12x with it's high dispo and took 12 hits huh? 

What other obvious things are you leaving out that you conveniently forgot? What frame? What mods? Were you sitting in the simulacrum invincible with the enemy AI turned off or were you in Mot? 

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Scarletboy76292 said:

If you are worried about players using broken builds to cheese the game, boo hoo who really cares?

If that were what they were worried about, then the builds wouldn't exist in the first place.

No, what DE are worried about, when it comes to Nerfs of stupidly powerful builds is, and always has been, that these come at the expense of playing other things.

DE have come out and stated that they are in favour of unbalanced things within reason, where the ability to (for example) one-shot nodes on Eidolons is absolutely fine.

What they are against, and have pointed this out before, is when something is the 'only' way or 'if you're not using this, you're doing it wrong' mentality that comes with it.

Thus, nerfs specifically tend to happen when their internal data shows that something is being used to the exclusion of other things. Take the Kuva Nukor as an example of this. DE came out and said that, at certain levels of the game, such as the players at the higher MR, the Kuva Nukor was being used more than 50% of the time in general game play. This means that one secondary weapon was being equipped by people so much that it completely out-performed the other 150+ secondary weapons.

That's the kind of balance DE doesn't like. That's the kind of un-balanced 'meta' play that DE are avoiding.

And as every solid developer knows, buffing up 150+ items to meet the power of 1 is stupid. Because it's not possible mechanically. So they nerfed 1 item.

And the same happens on other things over time.

Generically, though, DE are, in fact, buffing Abilities, Warframes, and Weapons over time. That's why we've seen such solid power creep.

[Lutesque]

9 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

And as every solid developer knows, buffing up 150+ items to meet the power of 1 is stupid. Because it's not possible mechanically. So they nerfed 1 item.

The net result being that you now have 151 equally underwhelming Guns...  And God knows how many Dissapointed Players. 😱

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

51 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The net result being that you now have 151 equally underwhelming Guns...  And God knows how many Dissapointed Players. 😱

 

Some players are not sure how to get the most out of their weapons, so they blame the weapon instead of themselves.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some players are not sure how to get the most out of their weapons, so they blame the weapon instead of themselves.

Sure I'll show proof I will make a video or send photos of the difference. I'll even use stealth to up the damage of the weapons. Like I've said I've played this game for a long time I know how to mod my weapons. Some weapons are just way way better.

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

The net result being that you now have 151 equally underwhelming Guns...  And God knows how many Dissapointed Players. 😱

 

The Knukor isn't even that badly nerfed, all they did was reduce the chaining down from 4 to 2, making it not spread status to a comical degree, it actually still works surprisingly well I hear, especially with Galvanized Shot since it can both self-prime and self-kill-stack for the status benefits of the mod, being able to apply up to 4 status effects (the hidden "Microwave" status counts according to the wiki) makes it able to do surprising damage, or so I hear.

It is the same as the Kuva Bramma nerfs, people screamed to high heaven that it was ruined forever, when it still trivializes a vast majority of content to the point of absurdity.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

The Knukor isn't even that badly nerfed, all they did was reduce the chaining down from 4 to 2, making it not spread status to a comical degree, it actually still works surprisingly well I hear, especially with Galvanized Shot since it can both self-prime and self-kill-stack for the status benefits of the mod, being able to apply up to 4 status effects (the hidden "Microwave" status counts according to the wiki) makes it able to do surprising damage, or so I hear.

Makes no Difference to me... I can't stand Beam Weapons.... You couldn't pay me to use The Nukor 😝

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

 

It is the same as the Kuva Bramma nerfs, people screamed to high heaven that it was ruined forever, when it still trivializes a vast majority of content to the point of absurdity.

The Bramma Nerf I feel like was done in Bad Faith because they decided to gimp it by breaking the rules and it doesn't affect everyone equally.

 

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

The Knukor isn't even that badly nerfed, all they did was reduce the chaining down from 4 to 2, making it not spread status to a comical degree, it actually still works surprisingly well I hear, especially with Galvanized Shot since it can both self-prime and self-kill-stack for the status benefits of the mod, being able to apply up to 4 status effects (the hidden "Microwave" status counts according to the wiki) makes it able to do surprising damage, or so I hear.

It is the same as the Kuva Bramma nerfs, people screamed to high heaven that it was ruined forever, when it still trivializes a vast majority of content to the point of absurdity.

I don't think I care that much about minor nerfs. They honestly don't make that much of a difference. The nerfs never really put the great weapons on par with anything else. I'll be making a video tomorrow to show the difference in power. One example I did was a Reaper Prime vs an Ankyros Prime. The Reaper Prime with normal mods no primed mods or crit increase for combo counter mods. The Ankyros with primed mods and Sacrifical Steel Blood Rush and combo chance even the cd Gladiator mod. Made it Beefy as possible and it takes a combo counter of  6x to do good enough damage. While the Reaper can one shot everyone with one strong attack no combo counter and a very basic set up. This test was done against corrupted lv 130-140 in the Void. I even tried a no mod set up and Reaper Prime could kill lv 130 heavy gunners with about 15 strong attacks. Ankyros Prime it was like I did nothing at all. I will do more testing to show the major difference in advantage per weapon class. I usually use melee because it's more fun. I dont have a Riven for either anymore because of the build I was making for Wyvern Rhadamanthys, so I sold both Reaper and Ankyros. It doesn't really matter though. The results were clear. Reaper Prime far outclassed the competition. 

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The Bramma Nerf I feel like was done in Bad Faith because they decided to gimp it by breaking the rules and it doesn't affect everyone equally.

Mind expounding on this a bit?

Because with the list of changes they did to it (as follows)

• It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere.
• Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
• Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m.
• Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage.

I'm not seeing any bad faith here, the number of cluster bombs was reduced because the weapon was both capable of mass status and crits since every bolt at the time was hitting 8 times due to the bomblets, the ammo reserve changes are countered by a single unranked ammo mutation mod slotted in (especially with the Exilus Adapter slot) and the cluster bombs actually for a size INCREASE despite having falloff introduced.

None of these changes seem like they even remotely were in bad faith when considering the weapon was utterly absurd at launch (and still is absurd to this day).

[Lutesque]

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

•  
• Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
• Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m.
• Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

All this is fine.... It's the first one where there's a Problem.

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

 

• It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere.

At first I was expecting this to behave like The Lenz... But as it turns out... This Nerf has been Hard Coded not to work with Ammo Mutation at all....

But here's the Real Kicker.... Ammo Restores still Work just fine and even the smallest one will give you back all 5 Arrows per Pulse...

Thus this Nerf has no affect on High MR players who can craft Ammo Restores and Hotkey them for Infinite Bramma Spamming but new players who get the Bramma as their First Legit Weapon may or may not have this as an Option.

Hence why I think it was done in Bad Faith... They merely wanted to screw over new players while the Weapon remains mostly unchanged for Higher MR Players.

12 minutes ago, Aldain said:

the ammo reserve changes are countered by a single unranked ammo mutation mod slotted in (especially with the Exilus Adapter slot) and the cluster bombs actually for a size INCREASE despite having falloff introduced.

Except Ammo Mutation doesn't work on the Bramma.... This is literally the only weapon that I know of that Behaves this way...

 

[Aldain]

34 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Except Ammo Mutation doesn't work on the Bramma....

Mine does, and I can't find any evidence to the contrary.

Even the Wiki suggests using Arrow Mutation or Vigilante Supplies.

Granted, it will never give more than one bolt per pickup, but that's the intended design of the bow.

[NekroArts]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Being Meta doesn't mean it's Unstable 😐... 

Actually you know what... It actually does... But the instability is within the alternative options not being as effective as the Meta...

And those things are the Exact reason why you are seeing more AoE Weapons and Self Buffing Warframe Abilities.... They are Creating the Outliers. This is generally how Pretty much many Game Designers operate... When something is wrong with the Game the fix comes in the form of a Feature or Content.... The problem is since that fix isn't being Applied Universally (or atleast on a larger scale, Universal Changes are usually bad)... You then wind up with Outliers.... Then Somebody complains that Their Pair of Scissors is too good at Cutting Things and then it gets Nerfed because it was doing what it was designed to do... 

We are going to be Stuck with them Regardless... 

This I can agree with....

 

They create outliers, but live service games cannot just leave them as is, this creates a problem for both them and us. Games that are one-and-done, including dlcs like Borderlands, they can pretty much leave those outliers because they already got your money. They don't have to worry about constantly making new, engaging, harder content - basically, long-term player engagement and revenue.

For live service games, when they fold to the demands of the players to not nerf their overpower weapons, the outliers, they then have to think of ways to make gameplay more than just a wipe than what it currently is. The current meta will then get their turn of getting outclassed by the content, we cry "bs mechanics", DE creates more power as an answer, and if that power becomes the new outliers and they don't nerf it we go back to where it started.

The instability that I refer to is the cycle of stacking our untouched power on top of theirs, they stack their new/pumped up counter-mechanic on top of that, and we answer back with more power, already there or given.

Weak weapons aren't the reasons why "bs" mechanics are there. If most, if not all, are underperforming then there's no reason to keep those mechanics. Nerf the outliers and the mechanics that were made against them, but when players want harder/challenging content without nerfing the outliers they pretty much have to go the "bs" route.

Why is SP, a mode with super inflated ehp compared to out new default scaling, is our base of measurement? This is a picture of my general perception on players using inflated content as standards.

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Why is SP, a mode with super inflated ehp compared to out new default scaling, is our base of measurement? This is a picture of my general perception on players using inflated content as standards.

🤔 I’ve wondered this as well. It’s a mode that restricts options for the sake of justifying equipping certain mods just to pay the entrance fee. That’s fine for a build test mode; you’re gonna need to combine your mods well to get through.

But people are now living and breathing it and then wanting more customisation options because like, half their slots are taken up by entrance fee mods. The main difference, aside from the health and damage numbers we players are equalising ourselves to anyways, is the increased spawn rates (and a handful of adjustments). Which is unique to Steel Path and not the rest of the game. Even though players are still playing the rest of the game even after unlocking Steel Path

[TheArmchairThinker]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If you don't want any challenges to face, then you don't want to play a game, or at least you want to play one that whittles the term to the nub of its meaning. A game can, ultimately, be boiled down to a string of pseudo-meaningful choices. For those choices to exist and mean something, there has to be stakes, and a difference between two outcomes. An unchallenged protagonist has no meaningful choices in forwards progression. You either continue to progress forward, or you do not. These are the choices presented by idle games - not infrequently, the 'progress forwards' choice is monetised by progression blocks, or by different aesthetics to it.

So just because I don't want to face any challenge means I don't want to play a game? Not every game must be a string of pseudo-meaningful choices, having stakes and such. The 'progress forwards' in warframe still exists and once you're done, you're the strongest in the game so why must I struggle despite finishing the 'progress forward'?

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So just because I don't want to face any challenge means I don't want to play a game? Not every game must be a string of pseudo-meaningful choices, having stakes and such. The 'progress forwards' in warframe still exists and once you're done, you're the strongest in the game so why must I struggle despite finishing the 'progress forward'?

Games that aren't a string of choices are idle games. Which I'll grant, are games by the barest nub of the term. But they're parodies of games, literally. The earliest idle games were literally parodies of the endless, meaningless 'power increase' grind that Warframe is more and more whittled down into. Cookie Clicker is a game where you become the most powerful thing in the omniverse - literally what you are asking for - through the banal act of first clicking cookies, and then waiting for the next upgrade to become available once clicking the cookie affords you no meaningful reward.

When you're the strongest you can be, you should have the most options. The game should be the most open and freeing. In Warframe, this isn't the case. Warframe's design does not reward gameplay, really of any form. It does not reward clever builds, because the same 15 (at best) mods from each category are used in almost every build. The only possible exception are the Warframes themselves, and they tend to whittle action gameplay to nothing by virtue of being unkillable or simply removing all interaction with the game's mechanics whatsoever. This are your Limbos and your Mesas, and to a lesser extent, your Saryns (Saryn being a 'lesser extent' because her design does attempt to substitute a different form of gameplay, but numerical balancing fails her under many circumstances, causing her to devolve into this anyway). Warframe's top level of gameplay is reductive in design. That is to say reducing the number of meaningful options you have to play with by virtue of offering options so much better, that previous ways of playing are obsolete. Worse, because DE has to design with the top level in mind, especially for new game modes or areas intended to provide a threat for 'late-game' players, these enemies too must be reductive - only able to be taken on with these overwhelming options. You really want to suggest that the Rubico or the Tigris are even 'good' weapons when the Bramma exists that hits just as hard, but hit 5-10 times as many goons at a time?

[(NSW)Greybones]

49 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

When you're the strongest you can be, you should have the most options. The game should be the most open and freeing. In Warframe, this isn't the case. Warframe's design does not reward gameplay, really of any form. It does not reward clever builds, because the same 15 (at best) mods from each category are used in almost every build.

Man, I’d hate to be forced into using the same 15 mods all the time for the entire game. I played through and progressed for all the options that I have, it’d be a shame not to use them

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Mine does, and I can't find any evidence to the contrary.

Even the Wiki suggests using Arrow Mutation or Vigilante Supplies.

Granted, it will never give more than one bolt per pickup, but that's the intended design of the bow.

Ah... Seems I remembered it wrong....

In any case that's still bad...

3 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Weak weapons aren't the reasons why "bs" mechanics are there. If most, if not all, are underperforming then there's no reason to keep those mechanics. Nerf the outliers and the mechanics that were made against them, but when players want harder/challenging content without nerfing the outliers they pretty much have to go the "bs" route.

Most players don't want a challenge... Only a few loud minority cry about Challenge.

3 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Why is SP, a mode with super inflated ehp compared to out new default scaling, is our base of measurement? This is a picture of my general perception on players using inflated content as standards.

Except it didn't start out that way... Steel Path was originally intended be a mode for people who grumble about being to Over Powered. And it was a success... Everything took forever to kill and there was no reason for a normal player to do the mode.... But then DE caved to all the Complaints about the lack of Rewards....  And then the mode finally had worth while Goodies that's when people started using Steel Path as the new Benchmark Standard.... 

 

I warned them 2 Twice this would happen before they made this Change.... They didn't listen... Now they created a whole new Mess to deal with.

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Games that aren't a string of choices are idle games. Which I'll grant, are games by the barest nub of the term.

Yeah but it seems like your using the term "Choices" very loosely here...

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The earliest idle games were literally parodies of the endless, meaningless 'power increase' grind that Warframe is more and more whittled down into. Cookie Clicker is a game where you become the most powerful thing in the omniverse - literally what you are asking for - through the banal act of first clicking cookies, and then waiting for the next upgrade to become available once clicking the cookie affords you no meaningful reward.

Why does this feel like Deja Vu... I feel like I heard this 10 Years Ago 🤔

 

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah but it seems like your using the term "Choices" very loosely here...

Maybe, but much stricter and 'idle games' kind of stop being games.

As for games overall, yeah. You see an attack coming, and that's effectively the game asking you how you'll deal with that, you need to make a decision. Dodge the attack (and in which direction), block the attack, try to kill the enemy before the attack comes out or just tank the hit. The fact they they only have a second or less to make those choices doesn't make it any less of a decision.

In Warframe though, players rapidly get access to tools that answer these questions very effectively in almost all circumstances. For example - when presented with an Elite and a Grunt in Halo, the player is presented with all sorts of questions that will influence their actions. Do they have grenades? Do they have a precision weapon to rapidly take out the Elite once their shields are down? Do they have a plasma pistol to destroy the Elite's shields? Does the Grunt have a Plasma Pistol? Would it be wiser to kill the Grunt first in that case? The choices the player makes will be related to the answers to all of these questions. Presented with an equivalent question in Warframe (lets say a Bombard and a Lancer), a Tenno does still have to ask what their current arsenal is. They may be presented with similar questions to the above. But they might also have the Ignis, or the Bramma, or a melee weapon hopped up on Blood Rush, and the questions do not exist. The question is simply 'is there an enemy in my line of sight?' If the answer is yes, pull the trigger.  The same is true for if the player has a mass hard CC frame, or a nuker, or a permanent stealth frame. There simply is no reason to consider otherwise.

[Lutesque]

41 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As for games overall, yeah. You see an attack coming, and that's effectively the game asking you how you'll deal with that, you need to make a decision. Dodge the attack (and in which direction)

I don't think Reacting to an Attack in that way counts as Decision Making since the options are weighted unevenly.

42 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Dodge the attack (and in which direction), block the attack, try to kill the enemy before the attack comes out or just tank the hit.

Okay that's Much better.... Although some games don't implement this properly...

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The fact they they only have a second or less to make those choices doesn't make it any less of a decision.

I totally agree... 😁

45 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The question is simply 'is there an enemy in my line of sight?' If the answer is yes, pull the trigger.  The same is true for if the player has a mass hard CC frame, or a nuker, or a permanent stealth frame. There simply is no reason to consider otherwise.

And that makes the game incredibly boring 😱 !!!!

DE needs to find some way around this...

[Teridax68]

So obviously the OP is wrong, but I think it's worth digging a little into why. The post makes three common assumptions that are often brought up in this sort of discussion:

1. More raw numerical power means more coolness and more fun.
2. A game being a power fantasy means there should be no upper limit to our power.
3. Nobody gets hurt in a co-op game when some builds are capable of cheesing the game.

Point 1 is wrong because it fundamentally misunderstands where fun comes from in a video game, which isn't simply power, but the delicate balance of player agency versus the game's challenge. Even in in a "power fantasy" game, the game throws challenges at us that aren't necessarily threatening, but that still incentivize us to change things up so that our gameplay isn't completely monotonous and automatic. Warframe does not do this, because in the near-totality of situations, an overpowered build will have us cruise through missions without really having us switch up our playstyle, or even pay much attention to what we're doing. This makes gameplay less interesting, rather than more interesting, and so because we have so much excess power that a whole lot of gameplay tied to surviving, maneuvering, or even just aiming is lost. It makes doing really cool things, like blowing up entire roomfuls of enemies, mundane, and anything less than that is considered bad, which is why so many frames feel uncool just because they can't do the same ridiculous things as others.

Point 2 is wrong because it fundamentally misunderstands what a power fantasy is, where it comes from, and the difference between feeling and being powerful. Power fantasies in games come from two main things: player agency, and narrative. Games with a power fantasy (which are most games) tend to make sure to have us feel like we're the deadliest thing around, which can still involve challenging gameplay, as is the case in the Halo and Doom series. Some add to that by giving the player a lot of freedom to play in exactly the way they like, and do cool things. In general, all of this is geared towards making the player feel powerful, whether or not there is a real chance of failing. None of these require the game to be so trivially easy as to cease to even be a game at all. Comparisons are often made to Dynasty Warriors, except the games have a difficulty setting where, at higher levels, the game gets really hard, and the player gets killed in only a few hits. Power fantasy does not equal trivial gameplay, and past a certain point, if we have too much power we can't even feel all that powerful, because anything that doesn't do the most overpowered thing we can do all the time ends up feeling weak. In this respect, overpoweredness can damage, rather than enhance a game's power fantasy, and so if we're designing in service of a power fantasy, there is reason to implement nerfs, if only sparingly.

Finally, point 3 is wrong because overpoweredness has plenty of damaging effects in a co-op game: because Warframe is balanced around a grind loop, that grind loop ends up having to be balanced around our strongest builds, which means it becomes excessively grindy and unpleasant for anything else. We can see this with the new balancing of Kuva Liches, who have such absurd amounts of damage reduction at higher levels that one essentially needs our cheesiest options to go through them without the fight being a total slog. The Steel Path is also a massive gear check that turns most weapons into pea-shooters, and makes many frames too weak to properly compete. Extreme differences in power thus end up reducing our range of viable options, even if we choose not to partake in the cheese, and gameplay suffers for it all around.

TL;DR: Excessive amounts of raw power tends to make gameplay more boring, rather than more interesting, power fantasies work best when the game isn't suffering from runaway power creep, and even if one chooses not to pick the most overpowered options, one will still suffer in a game that inevitably ends up being balanced around our strongest builds. Balance and nerfing are therefore for PvE just as well as for PvP, and while nerfs should only be applied sparingly, they still need to be applied, especially when we are so above the game's ability to challenge us that it can't hope to power creep itself to match us in the arms race.

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Okay that's Much better.... Although some games don't implement this properly...

Warframe is very much one of them. Primarily its frequent use of hitscan attacks. Since these attacks travel instantly and also typically lack a directional indicator (compared to a discrete projectile), combined with their range means that the player often has little to no capacity to meaningfully react to attacks. Damage isn't 'incoming' like it is with a Halo or DOOM style plasma attack, the enemy attacks and the player either instantaneously receives damage or doesn't, based on an invisible 'accuracy' calculation. I have no idea what determines the accuracy of a hitscan attack, especially off the top of my head, because this is all 'under the hood' stuff. A player can't 'dodge' hitscan - they can only be fast and assume that the game will make enemies miss.

33 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

And that makes the game incredibly boring 😱 !!!!

DE needs to find some way around this...

You've already indicated your distaste for nerfs and reducing player power elsewhere. This is a natural extension of players having access to the levels of unrestricted power that they do.

The Bramma, Ignis, Saryn, Mesa and far too many other weapons need to be nerfed in order for this to be solved. This need not entirely be through removing their damage entirely, although that's certainly one outcome that may work best for certain weapons or frames. But for others, less direct means can be taken. Alter the ammo and energy systems so the peaks of power aren't 'on tap' and frames with access to gameplay-neutralising abilities need to metre out use of this power with caution. Consider making enemies that can passively resist certain ability effects - bonus points if different enemies resist different things (i.e. some enemies can resist Stasis or being frozen, but still get caught by 'entangling' CC, and vice versa). Fix armour so damage becomes less of a concept and more something the playerbase and devs alike can meaningfully play and design around.

Simply put - there is no solution to the problem of this game being boring because the gameplay is too straightforward without nerfing the 'hard earned' tools that make the gameplay too straightforward.

[(PSN)Scarletboy76292]

When I started this discussion I didn't really think balancing was bad or that nerfing was always bad. However I do enjoy hearing other peoples perspectives and I do love options. It's true some weapons and frames are extremely strong compared to everything else. I have made a video showing the major difference for melee weapons. I am not sure if the strongest ones should be nerfed or should the weaker weapons get buffed? I think there should be at least 1 weapon per weapon type that is on the same level as others. Best melee weapon in my opinion is Reaper Prime. With only "pressure point" "organ shatter" "true steel" on it Reaper Prime performs the same as a mid 6x + combo counter Bo Prime, Ankyros Prime, and Scindo Prime that are fully modded with Prime mods, Blood Rush, Corrosive and heat Condition overload where needed. Destreza is actually really good with little mods, as is Kronen Prime, Redeemer Prime, and Nikana Prime. They all do extremely well with 3 basic mods. Zaws performance is up to the player. There should be more weapon types for Zaws. 

 

Here is a long video link that shows what I am talking about. 

 

Thanks for everyone talking about this and sharing your views. Honestly I think after hearing everyone out the game does need balancing but in a different way than just nerfing the strong weapons a little. When Warframe was in its beta that was when I saw some truly Overpowered frames. They are a far cry from that now and for the most part are better. There are frames that need their abilities to be reworked and some just trashed altogether.

 

Let me know what you think good or bad.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-09-18 at 7:28 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Heck, if I can do exterminatus in one finger snap, I would take it in a heartbeat. That's my power fantasy

I wonder how long the average person would play such a game. 

And how much the average person would spend on such a game.

 

It's pretty amusing to imagine though:

Spoiler

[load mission...........................................................................................................................................................................]

[still loading.............................................................................................................................................................................]

[snap}

[extraction................................................................................................................................................................................]

[rewards/stats screen..........................................................................................................................................................]

[load orbiter............................................................................................................................................................................]

I -might- play such a game for a while if I could still calibrate the difficulty to higher than [0].  But I'd certainly never play co-op, or trade with anybody, lol.