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Balance wont matter until hard content is added into game


Mother_Pfill
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Because in spite of what a very vocal minority believes, most people aren't interested in it, and it's the silent majority that keeps the lights on. I'm sure there are other reasons, but that is likely the main one.

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"Hard" content can't exist without balance.

Please explain exactly how content can be "hard" when we can effectively have infinite health, damage, and CC before even considering that this is a co-op game and all four players are capable of this. Inflating numbers just makes things more tedious and restricts options as there is no challenge inherent to the gameplay.

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

They did, it was called Raids and no one played them.

Standing on pressure plates etc. is considered hard? Daym I must be a skillful man in real life cos I can open doors with pressure locks and even those without completely solo!

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7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

They did, it was called Raids and no one played them.

raids weren't hard. not at all. the hardest part was finding a team that wasn't a toxic cesspool.
make 1 mistake? people yell at you.
don't know what to do? you're gonna get yelled at.
someone not happy with the speed youre goin at? yup youre gonna get yelled at and then they leave.
no one played raids cause they sucked.

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Everyone says they want harder content or something more sustainable, but beyond that, they expect DE to come up with the idea. They can't even do it on their own. It's just "Make it harder whatever it is" and nothing else. Might wanna add more to that than just harder content. Give an idea as to what you think is difficult or something. Everyone has a different idea of what hard content is, nobody in this community can ever agree.

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The difficult content is subjective because what someone can do maybe others can't. Balance the game is also a difficult task no matter what kind of game we are talking about. This game is more or less turned into a full hordeshooter game with collectibles and like these games are no meant to be difficult otherwise the playerbase drops drastically. Fake difficulity exists we call them in different names but mostly the difficulity means spongebob enemies, random hazards, hardly passable places or different kind of immunities on enemy mobs.

Every time the devs increase the difficulity, adding new contents to the game there will be a part of the community which says no pls anothers oh yeah do it pls. Not everyone wants to be challenged nor everyone see the game as a task more likely a tool of entertainment and joy. Lower level contents can be also hard if you are just using base mods and components because the difficulity here is mostly means gearcheck. If you have the right gear for the right mods then you are able to finish the mission with ease if you are skilled you can do the task without extras.

Also the game is not focused on pvp which means the devs can do their powerfantasies and make the player play their fantasy too. The first point is what the game meant to be, what's the real point. This is not a stealthy Darksouls-esque game with one by one mob duels but hordes of enemies. The game gate with time, mastery and sometimes with standing to achieve progress but it also forces progress. 

You can decide to play for fun or play for the loots what the game can offer but if you over do it then you probably will burn out. Forcing a difficulity ideal to the other players also not a valid thing and there will no be conscensus on what we really wants. The devs the ones who will decide what they want to do with their game and the players responsibility is to give them feedback otherwise no dosh for them.

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46 minutes ago, trst said:

"Hard" content can't exist without balance.

Please explain exactly how content can be "hard" when we can effectively have infinite health, damage, and CC before even considering that this is a co-op game and all four players are capable of this. Inflating numbers just makes things more tedious and restricts options as there is no challenge inherent to the gameplay.

This.

The unfortunate reality is that we are just way too overpowered for difficult content to even exist. DE would need to nerf the absolute hell out of players in order for this to be possible, and we all know how Warframe players are about nerfs.

Of course, there's always the solution of treating boss encounters the Maplestory way-- i.e. make bosses COMPLETELY ignore CC, and deal percent-based-damage to players with every attack, with only their health pool scaling with level. It's... not ideal.

Edited by SortaRandom
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Sorties were added for that reason, people complained

Then Arbitrations were made, people complained again

Steel path was created, & now people are still complaining & don't consider a build good until it oneshots enemies there

 

We can't entirely blame DE on that one, players have also a part in this

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2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hard content won't exist until players don't give massive, undending waves of backlash against simple enemies like Nullifiers.

While I agree, Nullifiers exist because of another massive, unending refusal to even remotely consider that "Hey maybe these Warframe abilities are a bit too strong and/or energy is too plentiful".

Warframe as a whole is just a back and forth arms race between nigh afk gameplay and inherently irritating mechanics to counter said afk gameplay.

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Just now, Aldain said:

Nullifiers exist because of another massive, unending refusal to even remotely consider that "Hey maybe these Warframe abilities are a bit too strong and/or energy is too plentiful"

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Nullifiers are not purely about Abilities, if you want to affect those, just spawn a couple of Energy Leech Eximus into the room (with their invisible auras and identical appearance to the other units around them) and watch as Abilities just... go away.

The part that most people complain about in the modern day is that they're also a check on our insane damage, so AoE weapons are simply not as useful against them as rapid-fire weapons or precision shots on the satellite.

They impede our power in a tangible way. They do take away casting in a clear and fair way because you can clearly see where their zone is and where it isn't, you can even use the simple tactic of 'don't care about re-casting, just walk in and shoot them'. They do prevent our overwhelming damage in a clear and fair way, because the mechanic of gating our damage is obviously designed to prevent a specific method that can be overcome any number of other ways.

And players don't like it. Players of Warframe whined, and keep whining, about the 'power fantasy' of Warframe and that's why the enemies should only ever be bugs beneath our feet. But that's exactly it: In a 'power fantasy' game, the only thing that is difficult or challenging is when there are things that take away your power and you have to overcome them.

The funny thing is...

What I would call 'difficulty' in a game like Warframe is simply more Interactions with the enemy. AI is all about how they spawn, how they reach you and so on, but the thing with Warframe's enemies is that they aren't designed to be on screen for longer than the fraction of a second it takes to kill them, and so they have no interactions with the player that matter. Heavies might ground slam if you get close, Manics will teleport if you damage them, everything else is passive. Shields, globes, flame bursts, shooting, melee, kamikaze explosions... They're all not based on making us do anything other than re-target and move on.

And the game is also built-around and rewarded-on that method of 'the faster you kill them, the more you get', which is how the insane damage meta has come about.

What we need is more enemies that actually prevent, or check, our functions individually so that as a group we have to actually prioritise the enemies that are impeding us the most and take them out in that priority in order to keep our abilities/damage going.

Having Shield Lancers that literally don't permit punch-through or ranged damage (AI-precise turning to block AoE for example) but by using an AoE to make them turn we can shoot them in the back with a hit-scan weapon.

Having Heavy Gunners that deal less damage per shot than normal, but their guns ramp up like the Turrets on PoE to physically push us away and prevent things like Melee, but CC allows us to close the gap.

Having sappers like the Scrambus/Comba units that will literally deactivate part of our kit, or remove energy or block abilities, meaning we need to use our guns to hit them from range.

Combine these with the melee charger units that will actually charge in rather than run slowly at us, and units that have high mobility and will prioritise finding corners that we aren't looking at to attack us like actual sniper units, and Eximus units that will functionally rally allies to them rather than just being regular Heavies with bonus actions...

All of these interactions affect us, the players, and they are completely independent of our high-velocity movement and can actually overwhelm us if we aren't playing sensibly.

And my point with the Nullifier comment was what leads into why none of this is going to happen:

The community simply does not like anything that impedes us in any kind of meaningful way... when Difficulty in a power-fantasy game is literally about how you manage to overcome all these things that legitimately impede your power.

DE's stuck.

Any time they actually try to implement something difficult...

The player base throws their toys out of the pram because the people like OP, that actually want difficulty, are in the massive minority.

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51 minutes ago, DonGheddo said:

Define "hard"

This.

Are we talking bigger enemy health numbers? More threats to mission objectives? Bigger threats to the player? Do we mean "hard" as in "engaging content", not necessarily something that has a high failure rate but that has more involvement toward success (compare hallway camping in Survival to hunting down Demolysts in Disruption)?

Some kinds of difficulty are going to be more palatable than others. Some things step on the power fantasy more than others. I'd wager that more players would be against threats to themselves than to the objective, and would want more engaging content than the same enemies that take longer to kill.

The problem is, of course, simple cost-benefit. Implementing a form of challenge that players would find acceptable without stepping on too many "unhappy buttons" is rough work at the best of times. You're lucky if you break even, blessed if the result improves player counts and finances. So you're putting a severe amount of effort into a form of improvement that might better things, if you do it right. And that's a pretty big "if".

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you need to define what it means to be hard for you. 
 

Hardest contents are not for everyone. Most players like challenging but not really hard contents. You can try to remove some mods to make your missions that much harder however. DE has also been adding harder and harder contents over the years. 

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7 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Do we mean "hard" as in "engaging content", not necessarily something that has a high failure rate but that has more involvement toward success (compare hallway camping in Survival to hunting down Demolysts in Disruption)?

That would be the closest to my ballpark...not that anyone asked.

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Hard content  can't be added - at least without resorting to the ever-popular 'crank up the health pools and damage' trick - until proper balance is implemented.

 

Consider this: let's say we add content that can't genuinely be beaten by nuking it with the Bramma, or Saryn or whatever. All that does is shove frames like Loki and Limbo back into the spotlight, who are just as capable of cheese on par with the levels currently attainable by nuking. How do you make stuff that's hard unless you do something about them?

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