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Useless Warframes


(PSN)Beluga_0
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For me it has to be Yareli, Grendel, Hydroid Come to mind right away, terrible design, terrible concept and poorly executed, Zephyr and Atlas could be better with a rework, but for now I guess they are in a decent place, but if we talk about outside of gameplay?: Hildryn, Nezha and Yareil are really terrible concept, powers are great, the overall design of their "theme" laughable. 

Edited by Circle_of_Psi
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19 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Hydroid has cc, mobility and scaling damage. i use him fine in ALL content.  The sudden Hydroid hate has to be a YouTuber meme right now. 

"useless frame" probably means "cant nuke a room" to many people. Not all frames can or should be designed to trivialize all content. 

That said, personally I don't find much fun in using Nekros. 

Lets be honest, his kit isn't great.
- Turning into a puddle isn't a fun or an interesting ability and that's especially the case after the size nerf. You could honestly just play Grendal, his whole gimmick is just a better puddle in everyway.
- The wave skill by itself isn't all that great either. Sure it gets the player from point A to point B but you can't really call it all that great.
- His CC with his four is unruly and unpredictable compared to other CC abilities making enemies harder to shoot/melee and summoning the tentacles from a puddle doesn't make it much better.
- His First ability is fine.
- The Passive is a joke.

Edited by Raqiya
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39 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Hildryn, Nezha and Yareil are really terrible concept, powers are great, the overall design of their "theme" laughable. 

I think Hildryn and Nezha hit their themes spot on. Hildryn being a neo-techno-viking shield maiden and Nezha being... well Nezha.

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6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

*a lot of stuff on hydroids abilities*

Not every frame needs no brainer abilities. Hydroid takes a bit more forethought to play. That's all. Compared to other frames, his abilities actually scale to all content. He can avoid damage and Cc, while using weapons to provide damage. 

He's far from useless. 

I think it's more helpful to look at not just the frame within it's own kit, but at the roster as a whole. Hydroid does not have a niche anymore. Being able to lockdown ONE point just doesn't compete anymore sadly. I really dig hydroid, but sadly what he does is just better done by other warframes.  Rather lets's break it down

Tempest barrage is far too underpowered and/or slow depending on how you want to look at it. Running the augment does help yes, but assuming you care about corrosive procs, you either have corrosive on your weapons already (faster application/probably more damage) or you have a primer (more status, typically faster). I suppose the stagger has some merit assuming you land it, but the delay is what kills it. Easiest ability to make good in my opinion. Really just could use some number tweaks i think.

Tidal Surge I think is probably his most solid ability. It's great mobility but it's only real *function* outside of raw mobility and maybe some knockdowns (which your tenno dash is equally if not better at doing) is to combo with your undertow so you can move around. Would be better if we could get some defensive utility in there but sadly, just the baseline decent tool that it is.

Undertow requires too much of Hydroid to be "good". Certainly compliments his kit well, and i would say is the lynchpin of all good Hydroid builds. The issue is like banshee's quake, you pretty much are locked into doing the puddle thing. Sure you can pop out but in any sort of challenging content, hydroid is a sitting duck outside of it.  Does it work as a pseudo-grouping ability? sure, but slap ensnare on there instead and you can group and kill *much* faster, even when using said melee weapon.  The damage does scale but is slow by most weapon standards.  When I want to lock down an area I look to frames like octavia or protea or gara who are able to accomplish the same thing undertow is trying to do, but without the limitations it has.  I honestly think it needs a rework of some kind. 

Tentacle Swarm is fine I guess. I still feel that how it spawns (or the targeting system - whichever it is) could still use some tweaking. Many times i've had it spawn in unexpected ways. Damage is a bit low, and yeah can make it hard to hit guys if you're not aoe-ing. All in all better than yareli's riptide and grendel's pulverize so not the worst 4 in the game. Still though, Strangledome, Mass Vitrify, Vortex/Bastille, Mallet, Shrapnel Grenades- that's just off the top of my head of abilities that can lockdown an area better than this. Does it work? yes, but it doesn't really do anything we don't have elsewhere, but in many ways worse.

 

For these reasons, and probably more i'm not thinking of, People see him, rightfully as weak. Not useless, but totally outclassed in every way. He's Old man Hydroid. Needs a fresh 2021/2022 makeover. He's got one of the best deluxe skins so i'd love to see him do more. 

But like many of the frames being mentioned, we feel they are weak because we have so many great options, and these are consistently considered to be "weak". Yareli too, has a functional kit, but is overall weak because of a lack of something. Grendel has a terrible energy economy and while effective, is very limited in what you want to do. Nekros is thematically strong, but does pretty much nothing outside of generate loot. Weak frames aren't bad frames but they do have many betters.

Edited by pwnSacrifice
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On 2021-09-25 at 9:57 AM, Olaf_Silvermane said:

Yarely - completely a gimmik frame, wasn't supposed to be top-tier, and not really good outside of normal starchart.

that I agreed.

On 2021-09-25 at 1:25 PM, Uan91 said:

>Nyx 

some what but not really

On 2021-09-25 at 1:25 PM, Uan91 said:

>Inaros 

watch it, your talking to a tanker and tanker players who still love inaros will remember you and ditch u to die (I had my buddy done that and all inaros players just aggro the enemy and just let him eat pure fire while he is down)

On 2021-09-25 at 1:25 PM, Uan91 said:

>Hydroid 

survivalist meme channel

On 2021-09-25 at 1:25 PM, Uan91 said:

>Trinity 

umm no she isn't it for the fact when she sort of really give the power of nick nack still for she is nuke healing bomb, players still love her and pretty much pay tributes to her still (a clan dedicated to her for all I know there is a moon clan so pretty much not tick them off either if they read this forum.)

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Right now what I have to be person who say useless warframe, that would be the regular excal, it is start sound disappointing soon truth I have to say, ever sense they nerf melee, excal has nothing counter balance his exalted sword or his abilities for what is all useful with excal is his radiant blind and no one want to use his slash dash, his javlin, and barely see players use the exalted sword because the great nerf just ram it in the face.  Heck, the only true exalted was worth using on is either umbra or prime excal version for some odd reason regular excal is utter hot garbage.  It is really sad really.

what do I think what to improved all the exalted weapons and abilities if they get scaling like vauban dart ball/turret ball, that way it be ok to use either using excal's slash dash just fine.

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3 hours ago, pwnSacrifice said:

I think it's more helpful to look at not just the frame within it's own kit, but at the roster as a whole. Hydroid does not have a niche anymore. Being able to lockdown ONE point just doesn't compete anymore sadly. I really dig hydroid, but sadly what he does is just better done by other warframes.  Rather lets's break it down

Tempest barrage is far too underpowered and/or slow depending on how you want to look at it. Running the augment does help yes, but assuming you care about corrosive procs, you either have corrosive on your weapons already (faster application/probably more damage) or you have a primer (more status, typically faster). I suppose the stagger has some merit assuming you land it, but the delay is what kills it. Easiest ability to make good in my opinion. Really just could use some number tweaks i think.

Tidal Surge I think is probably his most solid ability. It's great mobility but it's only real *function* outside of raw mobility and maybe some knockdowns (which your tenno dash is equally if not better at doing) is to combo with your undertow so you can move around. Would be better if we could get some defensive utility in there but sadly, just the baseline decent tool that it is.

Undertow requires too much of Hydroid to be "good". Certainly compliments his kit well, and i would say is the lynchpin of all good Hydroid builds. The issue is like banshee's quake, you pretty much are locked into doing the puddle thing. Sure you can pop out but in any sort of challenging content, hydroid is a sitting duck outside of it.  Does it work as a pseudo-grouping ability? sure, but slap ensnare on there instead and you can group and kill *much* faster, even when using said melee weapon.  The damage does scale but is slow by most weapon standards.  When I want to lock down an area I look to frames like octavia or protea or gara who are able to accomplish the same thing undertow is trying to do, but without the limitations it has.  I honestly think it needs a rework of some kind. 

Tentacle Swarm is fine I guess. I still feel that how it spawns (or the targeting system - whichever it is) could still use some tweaking. Many times i've had it spawn in unexpected ways. Damage is a bit low, and yeah can make it hard to hit guys if you're not aoe-ing. All in all better than yareli's riptide and grendel's pulverize so not the worst 4 in the game. Still though, Strangledome, Mass Vitrify, Vortex/Bastille, Mallet, Shrapnel Grenades- that's just off the top of my head of abilities that can lockdown an area better than this. Does it work? yes, but it doesn't really do anything we don't have elsewhere, but in many ways worse.

 

For these reasons, and probably more i'm not thinking of, People see him, rightfully as weak. Not useless, but totally outclassed in every way. He's Old man Hydroid. Needs a fresh 2021/2022 makeover. He's got one of the best deluxe skins so i'd love to see him do more. 

But like many of the frames being mentioned, we feel they are weak because we have so many great options, and these are consistently considered to be "weak". Yareli too, has a functional kit, but is overall weak because of a lack of something. Grendel has a terrible energy economy and while effective, is very limited in what you want to do. Nekros is thematically strong, but does pretty much nothing outside of generate loot. Weak frames aren't bad frames but they do have many betters.

it comes down to people not recognizing an ability unless its OP.

Just because Tempest Barrage isnt 100% A.I. lockdown, its considered useless. Thats just not true. In high end content, i can use TB to help me protect an area and its cheap. IMO, its other frames that are overtuned. CC shouldnt be a "turns off a.i. completely and you dont have to do anything" affair. TB, slows enemies and gives you opportunity to attack. Thats good enough. TB drops level 5 enemies and level 100 enemies just the same. 

Undertow is a great defensive ability. Just because it isnt a "99% damage resistant while i continue to fight" ability, doesnt mean its useless. It allows you to escape combat, CC enemies, regain shields. It also has scaling damage. While it may not be the fastest when you have Brahmas running around, it can get the job done if you aren't speed running. 

Maybe he just fits my playstyle. I dont know. Personally, i can do more with him than i can do with Nekros. All of Hydroid's abilities scale with content for me. His major "flaws" seem to be that he cant waltz into a room, push a button and turn off A.I. and negate all damage. He's not perfect, but far from useless. 

That said, i would like them to make Tidal Surge steerable, his passive 100% with 50% chance for 2 tentacles, and increased movement speed in Under Tow. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 

Maybe he just fits my playstyle. I dont know. Personally, i can do more with him than i can do with Nekros. All of Hydroid's abilities scale with content for me. His major "flaws" seem to be that he can waltz into a room, push a button and turn off A.I. and negate all damage. He's not perfect, but far from useless. 

That said, i would like them to make Tidal Surge steerable, his passive 100% with 50% chance for 2 tentacles, and increased movement speed in Under Tow. 

I still think Hydroid is undertuned and obsolete.  But I agree with the Hydroid changes you suggest, as well as your take on Nekros.

 

Nekros is a total snooze.  He's got Desecrate and literally nothing else.  Sorry, Shadows of the Dead is trash and borderline griefing.  If people want to tank, use a different frame or rely on Adaptation, shield gating, or any other number of methods that don't crowd other players' screens with bullet-blocking nonsense.  If people are using it for damage, well, I don't know what to tell them besides lol.  And Nekros' 1 and 2 don't really even warrant mentioning.

 

Nekros is in the same camp as Loki.  They both have one amazing ability, which means that they'll probably never get the dev attention they deserve.

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The only warframes that I think are truly "bad" are Frost, Hydroid and Yareli.  Bad is in quotes because they still have their place, it's just not usually in late game content, and even then they can still be used they just aren't the optimal choice.

-Frost, outside of some completely niche, stupid, over-involved damage mechanics involving ejecting enemies from his bubble is horrible.  Yeah, yeah you can spray enemies down with viral and then cast a wide range bubble to throw them out and induce True type damage magnified by the viral and it's one of the highest scaling damage abilities in the game and blah blah blah.  It's boring, it requires set up, and most of the time you could have killed them just as fast with anything else.


His passive is trash.

Freeze is crappy single target CC and no damage.  If you replace this nearly useless skill via Helminth you can no longer pop bubbles.

Ice Wave is crappy damage and crappy CC.

The bubble used defensively isn't great.  The base health on the bubble even modding for power and armor is tissue paper at high levels unless you stack it with his meager energy pool.  The health the bubble gains from the 4 second absorption period doesn't get increased in any way.  If they can put it on in 4 seconds they can take it off in 4 seconds.  It also blocks team fire, which quite often leads to inexperienced players putting a bubble on an objective and then expecting someone else to sit inside the bubble to keep it clear.  When no one does that you end up with the enemies in the bubble attacking the objective with their own personal shield provided by your team.  Or just bubbles everywhere at random blocking fire all over the place.  And the game never explains you can pop them.  I've politely asked so many players to please clean up their bubbles that were just scattered all over the map and not a single one knew you could pop them and had to be taught how.  

Avalanche is okayish damage for regular star chart content, but hampered by his tiny energy pool and its super high cost.  It only has CC if you don't use duration as a dump stat, which if you want the damage you need high power and if you want to hit things you need range and with his pathetic energy pool you can't really dump efficiency.  Good times.

-Hydroid has terrible damage numbers on every single ability and the CC on any of them is nothing to write home about because moving in the puddle lets enemies out of it and the AI on the tentacles is so bad that they usually only hit things on the initial cast.  I've had enemies just run straight through a hallway full of them without getting grabbed or even hit.  If it weren't for his farming augment he would have zero popularity except for people that really want to be pirates.

-Yareli has zero synergy and her kit barely even fits thematically aside from her Kdrive.  Why is she even a water frame?  But also a Kdrive themed frame?  What?

Her 1 is okayish CC but you have very little control over it and it's not as immediate as other kinds.  You can get better CC from just about anywhere else.  

Merulina cannot take Kdrive mods, thankfully doesn't have those awful ragdoll physics from normal Kdrives, but is still awkward to use in tight spaces.  It also restricts you to only your secondary weapon and, as of the last time I used her, turned off all companion mods that you need for QOL like enemy and loot radar and vacuum.  

Aqua Blades should be good but got balanced into being useless before she was ever even released.  They delay between hits every 3rd hit, the gigantic dead zone where you can only hit enemies exactly where the blades are, the tiny hit box for the blades, and the low damage even with slash procs just makes these things very unreliable.  If I have to be in melee range I can kill the enemy with melee before the blades do any real work.  Unless we're talking about the laughable prospect of bringing her into SP missions where enemies take longer to kill so the blades would have time to...  still do nothing because of the massive HP pools.

Riptide has a lot of trouble pulling enemies in, doesn't last long enough to be good CC and doesn't have the damage to be worth the energy cost unless you can luck out and get a decently sized group.  The fact that it then scatters the probably still alive enemies makes the CC portion even worse.


All of these frames are still "usable" in most content.  There's nothing that isn't.  But they're all pretty bad at what they do and don't scale into harder stuff at all.  I honestly think Hydroid scales the worst and I have 5 forma on him with stacks on stacks of power strength and he still struggles to kill stuff.  Several people have suggested reworks for these frames, and even more have just offered complaints.  They are consistently at the top of the "useless frames" list when people make these threads.

 

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4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

it comes down to people not recognizing an ability unless its OP.

Just because Tempest Barrage isnt 100% A.I. lockdown, its considered useless. Thats just not true. In high end content, i can use TB to help me protect an area and its cheap. IMO, its other frames that are overtuned. CC shouldnt be a "turns off a.i. completely and you dont have to do anything" affair. TB, slows enemies and gives you opportunity to attack. Thats good enough. TB drops level 5 enemies and level 100 enemies just the same. 

Undertow is a great defensive ability. Just because it isnt a "99% damage resistant while i continue to fight" ability, doesnt mean its useless. It allows you to escape combat, CC enemies, regain shields. It also has scaling damage. While it may not be the fastest when you have Brahmas running around, it can get the job done if you aren't speed running. 

Maybe he just fits my playstyle. I dont know. Personally, i can do more with him than i can do with Nekros. All of Hydroid's abilities scale with content for me. His major "flaws" seem to be that he cant waltz into a room, push a button and turn off A.I. and negate all damage. He's not perfect, but far from useless. 

That said, i would like them to make Tidal Surge steerable, his passive 100% with 50% chance for 2 tentacles, and increased movement speed in Under Tow. 

I am not saying TB or any of his abilities are useless. Underpowered in many respects yes, but let's look at this another way. If I'm playing as Hydroid, my main question is WHY. For most frames, this is an easy answer, even ones we've discussed here: Nekros "I want loot", Grendel "I want to eat dudes", Yareli "I hate myself".  Put another way, there's an opportunity cost to using abilities. I can take the time to use an ability OR I can do XYZ.  So when I say I *could* TB i *could* also just shoot my tonkor/zaar/exodia contagion/whatever at the same enemies. What is going to do that job better/faster? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Anyhow, that's my final take on hydroid for you, I don't disagree with your points, i'm just trying to add some context why some people might feel the way they do regarding this frame. 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

*snip*

All of these frames are still "usable" in most content.  There's nothing that isn't. 

A lot of good points in this post but I felt like this needs to be pointed out. Absolutely. I am pretty sure most of us saying this or that frame is weak is because we want those frames to be as awesome as the ones we think are strong.

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15 minutes ago, pwnSacrifice said:

I am not saying TB or any of his abilities are useless. Underpowered in many respects yes, but let's look at this another way. If I'm playing as Hydroid, my main question is WHY. For most frames, this is an easy answer, even ones we've discussed here: Nekros "I want loot", Grendel "I want to eat dudes", Yareli "I hate myself".  Put another way, there's an opportunity cost to using abilities. I can take the time to use an ability OR I can do XYZ.  So when I say I *could* TB i *could* also just shoot my tonkor/zaar/exodia contagion/whatever at the same enemies. What is going to do that job better/faster? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Anyhow, that's my final take on hydroid for you, I don't disagree with your points, i'm just trying to add some context why some people might feel the way they do regarding this frame. 

 

A lot of good points in this post but I felt like this needs to be pointed out. Absolutely. I am pretty sure most of us saying this or that frame is weak is because we want those frames to be as awesome as the ones we think are strong.

My answer to that question is "because I'm tired of cheesing with XYZ". I like meta frames as much as anyone else, but i also get a certain satisfaction from mastering a frame like Hydroid that doesnt just cruise to mission success. I guess i just like how he plays. Its not even a case of purposely playing a frame that handicapped, i truly do think all of his abilities scale and work well with each other. Either way, i wont mind a few buffs, as long as DE doesnt try to completely redo his abilities or do something silly like give him an exalted weapon. 

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some may argue that loki is useless, and i would disagree. but he is definitely inefficient. He's my favorite frame, but playing him is like hopping into a fighting game and choosing the wackiest stance-changing character you can find. the guy that has like 5 different sets of moves or something. he's just hella inefficient. but sometimes that's fun. but my opinion on most useless is yareli and hydroid. pretty much everything outclasses them in some way.

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18 minutes ago, pwnSacrifice said:

I am pretty sure most of us saying this or that frame is weak is because we want those frames to be as awesome as the ones we think are strong.

Sort of.

One of my biggest issues with Frost is the lack of diversity.  My boy has essentially Final Fantasy's Ice, Ice2, and Ice3 for his 1, 2 and 4.  Same exact skill with differing levels of effect.  That is straight up bogus in a game like this.  So it's not just that he needs a numbers buff imo.  He needs a new skill set that better reflects the diversity that you should have in a frame.  The bubble also needs some upgrades so that it's more team friendly and a little better at scaling.

Hydroid needs to basically get a utility buff with better AI for the tentacles, better damage numbers with some utility built in and like maybe faster or at least cheaper movement for the puddle.  His current kit could work, it just really needs to be better.

Yareli is a different story though.  She lacks all synergy.  It's not that I want her to be strong like other frames, I want her to not feel like she was slapped together by an intern that has never played the game.  She seriously feels like I asked my 10yo goddaughter to look at the things she likes in a game she's never played and then make a frame based on what she thought was neat.  Part of the frustration isn't even that I can't use her in higher level content because she doesn't scale.  She feels poorly built.  Wisp is like an antique dresser made by a master craftsman and Yareli is like secondhand Ikea furniture.

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18 minutes ago, Softballbryan said:

I’ll define useless as “no fun for me, not smooth for my style.”

In that case I'll say Revenant. I got the deluxe skin because I thought, "I should try harder to learn to use him". I put in 10 hours of using Revenant, but his abilities are kinda meh for me. :facepalm: oh well.

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13 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

One of my biggest issues with Frost is the lack of diversity.  My boy has essentially Final Fantasy's Ice, Ice2, and Ice3 for his 1, 2 and 4.  Same exact skill with differing levels of effect.  That is straight up bogus in a game like this.  So it's not just that he needs a numbers buff imo.  He needs a new skill set that better reflects the diversity that you should have in a frame.  The bubble also needs some upgrades so that it's more team friendly and a little better at scaling.

You forgot to mention that he has a Rhino-tier passive too.

Passives are something I wish DE would do a revisit on, if not entire frames I just wish they'd go back and change awful passives like those on Frost and Rhino.

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In the current state of the game, Inaros is at the bottom of the pile. For the content he tanks passively in, Lavos, Wukong and Grendel can work just as well, and for higher stuff he falls behind quick. Even Hydroid and Yareli have some good niche usage that can be covered by at best only one other frame, But Inaros gets outclassed quick by many frames when it comes to tanking and has forgetable abilities otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Aldain said:

You forgot to mention that he has a Rhino-tier passive too.

Passives are something I wish DE would do a revisit on, if not entire frames I just wish they'd go back and change awful passives like those on Frost and Rhino.

I actually listed it in my initial comment on this post that was probably too long for any sane person to read.  I have a whole friggin essay about why Frost is bad.  He was my first prime and my goto for everything when I was new, so him being so power crept and generally bad hits me different.  I have reworked him so many times in my head, it's not even funny.

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On 2021-09-25 at 6:12 PM, Aldain said:

...But Switch Teleport has no right being a full ability slot in the current state of Warframe.

Or you salvage it:

Switch Teleport

  • Different casting options:
    • Tap cast = Same as now
    • Hold cast = Teleport to your Decoy without needing to target the Decoy, as long as the Decoy is within casting range. This works even through walls, as long as it doesn't "backwards progress" you during particular scripted fights and such.
  • New effects:
    • On any target = Damage amp aura, increasing damage taken for nearby enemies by 20/30/40/50%. Aura has 5/7/9/12 sec duration and 8/10/12/15 meter radius. If it is cast on an enemy, and the enemy dies mid-duration, the aura still eminates from the corpse's location
    • On ally = If Loki casts it on an ally, the ally gets a lengthy survivability buff (like damage reduction or evasion, something like that), and Loki gets heavily reduced aggro for the same duration.
    • On enemy = If Loki casts it on an enemy, and enemies are alerted, the enemy gets a longlasting Duration-moddable high-aggro Radiation-proc on them (with a Chaos-esque hologram on them, so the enemy looks like Loki)
    • On objects = Can swap with explosive barrels and similar objects. The barrel is treated like an enemy (i.e. it gets the lengthy Radiation-proc on it if enemies are alerted)
  • Safeguard Switch Tangled Switch - Added effects:
    • On allies = If used on an ally, it makes them briefly invulnerable, just like now
    • On enemies or Decoy = If used on an enemy or Decoy, a tether will be placed on it for 5/7/9/12 second. This tether has multiple effects:
      • At any time an enemy or your Decoy gets within 8/10/12/15 meters of the tether, it will be latched onto it and dragged closer to the centre
      • This tether remains in place for its full duration, even after the switch-target might've died (including if it's placed on the Decoy and the Decoy is removed in any way)
      • It can tether up to max 4/6/8/10 enemies at once
      • It causes 15/25/35/50% (Strength-moddable, capped at 100%) of all damage taken to be shared among all the tethered enemies. Note that if it tethers to a Decoy, then the Decoy can share its damage taken to any other tethered enemies (even though the Decoy is invincible - this is part of my rework on Loki)
      • Max 1 tether can be used at a time. Recasting the ability removes the old tether before placing a new one.
      • Fun note: The tether is placed BEFORE the teleport-swap, so if you Switch an enemy who is amidst more enemies, they will all be teleported to the swapped location!

 

Tadaaa!

Edited by Azamagon
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2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Or you salvage it:

While I'll give an A+ for effort, that sounds like a logistics nightmare with how DE's coding usually winds up.

It's too layered with too many variables, also direct damage enhancement seems to clash with Loki's theming imo.

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