Jump to content

Tried to play more Chroma again and realized (again) why i stopped playing him after his harsh nerf years ago.


Derethevil
 Share

Recommended Posts

I know people don't want to hear it anymore, but compared to other "tank" frames, Chroma is really not at a state anymore to tackle "endgame" level things.
Many frames have so many things by now to either cheat death completely, or flatout ignore it. 
With Chroma, before his nerf, i was able to tank Vay Hek Nightmare Raid just fine, mostly having to watch when my Vex Armor ran out and keep my energy up to cast it again, once it ran out. But once you did cast it, you were pretty much safe'n'sound from any content, you just had to take cover to recast it later on every time.

Now?
I stand in Steel Path. Way better stats than before Vay Hek. Nearly doubled them. And i die in seconds with so many armor buffs and what not active, while Inaros? Nidus? They just yawn and run through there like it's nothing. Other Frames like Wukong "cheat" death as well.

So here it comes:
You lied DE. Back then you obviously lied. 
You said you will "fix" (Nerf) Vex Armors damage buff only. Never you have said a word about his armor he gains, but you changed those numbers as well.

True. Back then i weren't able to test Steel Path difficulty, but i am very certain that i would have been more than capable of easily surviving anything Steel Path could have thrown at me with the old Ice Chroma years ago. (And no. I complain about the Armor being nerfed, not the damage buff.)

So whatever people say here. Chroma feels like some kind of.. super niche Warframe for extremely cut down content. Nothing you bring to the stuff that really matters at the later part of the game.
And yes. That bothers me. Because it wouldn't have had to be that way if you wouldn't have nerfed the armor calculation from Vex Armor. 
If you would have kept your promise about only "fixing" the damage calculation, then i would be absolutely fine with everything.

But that isn't the only problem Chroma has. 
He always had the issue that his 1 and 4 were... bad abilities. Or unused ones. 
Helminth helped a bit with it, but did it really fix it? No. Absolutely not. 


So here i sit and type a huge text, knowing that many probably don't care at all or still claim he would be "fine" the way he is. But true players who played him for a long time would tell you otherwise.
Yes. There are more urgent matters. Frames that need attention more urgent. That i will never ever be able to deny. But i still hope that you will look over Chroma again, after content got to a point where his old self would be needed to shine again.

So when will Chroma get the rework he needs by now?

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, Ive played chroma, inaros, nidus, even grendel and many other tank frames, and the biggest issue isnt Chroma per say, but how his tankiness is administrated. 
 

There are 3 types of tanks in warframe. Armor tanks, like chroma, inaros, and grendel. There are DR tanks like Baruuk, Gauss, and nidus. And there are Ability tanks, like Rhino and Revenant. Of course some offshoots occur, Hildyrn is a shield tank that uses DR, Zephyr is an ability tank that uses bullet redirection, but that is the general trend. 
 

Chroma can gain a ton of armor, and a full build chroma can equal or even surpass an Inaros in EHP, but there is a single status effect especially that cripples armor tanks. Slash. Grendel and Chroma hurt from it the most. Even though they can have very high EHP, slash ignores armor for us like it does enemies, and thus without high DR slash really hurts. Inaros can bypass this due to his tanking being a combo of health and armor tanking, whereas chroma is pure armor tanking. This is also why nidus and Gauss shrug off status like nothing due to the DR they get, while mesa, who reaches 95% dr can die instanty, due to shatter shield not stopping status effects. 
 

Therefore, even buffing Chromas armor scaling wont change anything. He has very high ehp as it stands, but due to slash procs you can die very fast. 
 

that doesnt mean chroma doesnt need help, he does, but I dont see how buffing his EHP alone can fix his issues at hand

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

So, Ive played chroma, inaros, nidus, even grendel and many other tank frames, and the biggest issue isnt Chroma per say, but how his tankiness is administrated. 
 

There are 3 types of tanks in warframe. Armor tanks, like chroma, inaros, and grendel. There are DR tanks like Baruuk, Gauss, and nidus. And there are Ability tanks, like Rhino and Revenant. Of course some offshoots occur, Hildyrn is a shield tank that uses DR, Zephyr is an ability tank that uses bullet redirection, but that is the general trend. 
 

Chroma can gain a ton of armor, and a full build chroma can equal or even surpass an Inaros in EHP, but there is a single status effect especially that cripples armor tanks. Slash. Grendel and Chroma hurt from it the most. Even though they can have very high EHP, slash ignores armor for us like it does enemies, and thus without high DR slash really hurts. Inaros can bypass this due to his tanking being a combo of health and armor tanking, whereas chroma is pure armor tanking. This is also why nidus and Gauss shrug off status like nothing due to the DR they get, while mesa, who reaches 95% dr can die instanty, due to shatter shield not stopping status effects. 
 

Therefore, even buffing Chromas armor scaling wont change anything. He has very high ehp as it stands, but due to slash procs you can die very fast. 
 

that doesnt mean chroma doesnt need help, he does, but I dont see how buffing his EHP alone can fix his issues at hand

That is true. 
Slash kills things extremely easily in endlevel content. But even without that it often feels like Inaros survives a lot more situations with less EHP than Chroma.
Especially since he doesn't have to constantly watch his buff and need to keep it at a high enough percentage to be effective with it.

Meanwhile Chroma gets essentially punished multiple times with "less" survivability. If anything it should be Inaros getting punished harsher for not relying on abilities as much.

Inaros can run into any mission and will be fine. Rarely you really need to get his 4 up and running.
Meanwhile Chroma needs to watch his energy pool, his time on his ability and maintain it high enough to be at his best but still worse than Inaros.

And before anyone says anything. No i don't want any nerfs for anything. I hate this mentality of nerfing everything all the time, just because it is more effective at something than other things. It often solves nothing or is mostly a temporary band-aid solution for a constant problem.

Running after this illusion of perfect balance everywhere is nothing but literally chasing a rainbow. 


Do i have the perfect solution myself for Chroma? No. Surely i don't. But it doesn't need a genius to see that Chroma, like a lot of other frames, need a decent buff or downright rework to not start gathering dust. 

Bring up his HP completely. Doesn't need to be at Inaros level. But at least somewhere to have some kind of buffer to help prevent unnecessary deaths in situations like Slash procs. 
Or you rework how slash works so it doesn't cause that issue in the first place. But then we might run into different problems again. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arcane guardian.

Magus repair.

Helminth warcry or some other enhancement.

Vazarin. 

A healing or buffing specter. 

Mecha set armor bonus. 

A teammate to help. 

You can use some of these methods in the meantime instead of trying to act like dying wasn't your own fault lol. 

Because you're gonna be waiting a long time for a chroma rework.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Derethevil said:

So when will Chroma get the rework he needs by now?

Soon™ 

12 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

but there is a single status effect especially that cripples armor tanks. Slash.

And Heat.... Heat Procs are extremely Devastating to Warframe's these days 😱...

12 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

while mesa, who reaches 95% dr can die instanty, due to shatter shield not stopping status effects. 

I thought she was getting murdered by being Melee'd or AoE effects since Shatter Shield doesn't protect you against those... which Is why I always play Mesa with both Steel Fibre and Mesa's Waltz....  She has the space for it... Might aswel use them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

12 hours ago, Derethevil said:

But even without that it often feels like Inaros survives a lot more situations with less EHP than Chroma.

That might have something to do with The Arcanes Getting Nerfed too... Arcane Grace now works in percentages so really only Inaros benefits from it now...

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I even agree that there was a modification in the calculation of the armor, I was scared when I went to complete a daily SP against infested and died in 30s of mission. But honestly Chroma's EHP isn't really a problem, there are warframes more squishs that survive, the biggest problem for me is the 4 that doesn't do any good and the 2 that doesn't stand out much, normally you'll use fire or ice and that's it.

I particularly changed the 4 to Mesa (2) for group play with a short range and the AUG of the second skill and I'm enjoying it because Chroma is a "sentinel" is the type of character that should work well with others providing buffs, but the reality is that he is currently a single-player character with a lot of strength to kill in 1 hit.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Derethevil said:

So here it comes:
You lied DE. Back then you obviously lied. 
You said you will "fix" (Nerf) Vex Armors damage buff only. Never you have said a word about his armor he gains, but you changed those numbers as well.

What?

I... am confused.

Did you just... not read the part where they changed him? Because they did say it. They said it in the DevStream and then in the Patch Notes for that update. I remember, I was there.

Here, the actual patch notes from Update 22.12 where they changed Vex Armour.

 

Quote

 

Update 22.12 (2018-02-09)

  • Vex Armor
    • Fixed a longstanding issue with number calculation being multiplicative. Boosts now apply before upgrades instead of after, making the ability consistent with all other damage boosting abilities. Overshields are now considered for Vex Armor. Chroma's Vex Armor remains one of the top performing damage-multipliers in the game - and it's now an aura! Instead of just being focused on Chroma, it can now benefit allies in range.
    • Vex Armor can now be recast to preserve accumulated buffs.

 

So they took the multiplicative Armour bonus and made it the same additive on that happens with regular mods.

The difference in DR is harsh, but they fully made it clear that it's what they were doing.

::Edit::

Outside of that, since Bleed Procs are calculated by the raw damage, not the reduced damage from Armour, the Steel Path level of Bleeds would still kill you as Chroma regardless of whether this change had been made or not.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait... chroma is bad for steel path?

Dang... i have been doing something wrong then because chroma is my go to for solo essence farming. Honestly i haven't really noticed any issues with survivability. I typically do 20 minute cycles of steel path survival with him and i rarely go down. Did something happen recently to make chroma weaker?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What?

I... am confused.

Did you just... not read the part where they changed him? Because they did say it. They said it in the DevStream and then in the Patch Notes for that update. I remember, I was there.

Here, the actual patch notes from Update 22.12 where they changed Vex Armour.

 

So they took the multiplicative Armour bonus and made it the same additive on that happens with regular mods.

The difference in DR is harsh, but they fully made it clear that it's what they were doing.

::Edit::

Outside of that, since Bleed Procs are calculated by the raw damage, not the reduced damage from Armour, the Steel Path level of Bleeds would still kill you as Chroma regardless of whether this change had been made or not.

Yes in the notes of course.
But they announced it differently in Streams and talking about it before the notes came to be.
They always only talked about how they will change the damage calculation or as they said it "fixed" it. 

As far as i remember they never mentioned the armor itself back then, till just before the update happened. 

That is what i meant with that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Derethevil said:

They always only talked about how they will change the damage calculation or as they said it "fixed" it.

You might be mis-remembering that. When it came to 'fixes' it was always in reference to how the Armour values were an unintended effect that they let go on too long. The damage side of Vex Armour was largely left unchanged and they even assured us on stream that the damage part was going to be 'as powerful as always'.

In fact, when it comes to damage it's right there in the patch notes: Chroma's Vex Armor remains one of the top performing damage-multipliers in the game - and it's now an aura! Instead of just being focused on Chroma, it can now benefit allies in range.

DE buffed his damage function by making it an Aura that applies to other players too. In fact, in all of the patches that were even close to the discussion about Vex Armour, the changes to the damage portion of his Vex have been limited to 'Fixed the Unmodded Damage Multiplier displaying 100% higher than it should have' and 'Fixed an issue where Chroma would deal no damage with Vex Armour active.' Both of which were the previous year to the change that reduced his DR from Vex.

So, I'm fairly sure you are actually mis-remembering the changes, because DE didn't want to reduce the Damage portion of Vex at all. They may have joked about it, the same way they joked about removing Blink from the game (instead giving it to all Archwings, Titania and later the Railjack too), but that wasn't one of the planned changes.

It's funny though, players literally did all the damage reduction calculations at the time when DE said that the function was changing.

When DE said they were 'bringing it in line' with the others, they literally meant it. The highest DR from single abilities at the time was Mesa's 95% from Shatter Shield. The highest from 2 Abilities in combo was Trinity with around 97.5% combining Link and Blessing.

Chroma could, and still can, easily reach the same numbers as them by combining his Vex and his Ward and actually go a little higher. This was likely due to the fact that  before the 2020 buffs, Armour itself was not a true Damage Reduction function since certain elements double-dipped on damage by reducing armour as well as dealing bonus damage against it, while Bleed naturally bypassed it. (After the 2020 buff to Tenno Armour it became a much better function, since no element has a bonus against it, barring Bleed, and Shields don't let Bleed through.) Not only that, the frame can re-cast Vex now to maintain buffs rather than being caught out like he used to be in regular game modes, so he's functionally better at being a tanky, damage-buffing frame overall.

Players not only can, but do, take the other DR frames to Steel Path and thrive, and there are plenty of builds around (not even counting Helminth replacing Effigy with self-heals like Gloom, or with other functions to help his scaling like Pillage or Fire Blast), that make Chroma an amazing pick for Steel Path.

And let's be honest about frames like Inaros; none of Inaros' abilities are really great, the best of them is his pocket-sand for quick CC and self-healing, and so you can mod him exclusively for armour and health, unlike Chroma who actually needs to be modded for his abilities to function like a real Warframe. We're more likely to see a change to Inaros to make him more... 'engaging'... than to Chroma, who actually needs to cast and manage his functions a little.

Chroma may seem like a niche frame for boosting weapon damage in specific content, but that doesn't mean he's not capable of applying that overall too. Weapon damage and self-buffing don't become irrelevant in the rest of the game. Give him something tangible to Steel Path, like CC or enemy de-buffing, using the Helminth (I recommend something like Breach Surge, Pillage, Thermal Sunder, Ensnare, or Resonator, these abilities give you either enemy debuffing, CC or even bonus damage) with Helminth and he's better than ever.

Now...

Do I want Chroma to get something more? Sure.

DE made it really hard to get rid of his 1 by making it now the function that rotates his elements, but his 4 is still something I would take out.

That's the kind of thing we could talk about. I'd like a discussion.

But the mindset that DE lied to you, or that he's completely irrelevant outside of the big boss hunts... you've got to ditch that. There's plenty you can do with Chroma, because the base part of the game hasn't changed:

You still need to be able to kill enemies and you still need to occasionally take a hit while doing so, and Chroma can facilitate both with competence.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Wait... chroma is bad for steel path?

Dang... i have been doing something wrong then because chroma is my go to for solo essence farming. Honestly i haven't really noticed any issues with survivability. I typically do 20 minute cycles of steel path survival with him and i rarely go down. Did something happen recently to make chroma weaker?

Its not that he is bad, its just, when compared in a vacuum, he falls behind other frames in SP, although usually its more noticeable depending on the faction and time in mission. Chroma vs the infested for instance is fine for a while, but vs Grineer, who deal most impact but can proc slash or decimate your health with a wayward blast hit from a bombard can cause issues post 30. 
 

 As for acolytes, he is like Gauss in the sense they have a “kill the acolyte before they do X” or else situation, that usually boils down to a form of ability nullification (violence) or bullet attractor (mania?), etc. Ive definitely had experiences where I take a single hit from violence while vex armor is still active and even with multi-thousands of armor and adaption DR a slash proc screws me over. Not to mention if you dont have prime/surefooted you can be procced with Lifted status which is almost guaranteed death since only acolytes can proc that in the first place. 

 

Compare that to Nidus, who not only has solid armor, hp regen, and DR, but also cc immunity with 3 and solid damage with 1…or compare it to inaros, who even with less armor can survive slash better due to a higher hp pool…yea. And then there is rhino, who exclusively fears violence…
 

Chroma isnt bad, and he is definitely better then much of the cast for survivability, but that doesnt mean he is without issue

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seriously wish people would stop using Steel Path to determine a frame’s viability when it’s no secret that DE are balancing around non-SP.

So you got far with one frame and not another, woo hoo! What did it take to get that far? I’m certain it was with all 4 abilities that a Warframe has and not specific ones that do specific things like make the player invincible or strip an enemy of any agency they may have

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I seriously wish people would stop using Steel Path to determine a frame’s viability when it’s no secret that DE are balancing around non-SP.

So you got far with one frame and not another, woo hoo! What did it take to get that far? I’m certain it was with all 4 abilities that a Warframe has and not specific ones that do specific things like make the player invincible or strip an enemy of any agency they may have

Why?

Everything in the game can handle non SP.

DE also said SP would only be hard mode for people that wanted it with some cosmetic rewards.

Weekly rewards get introduced and now new arcanes and mods to make guns SP viable.

 

On 2021-09-26 at 6:42 AM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Even though they can have very high EHP, slash ignores armor for us like it does enemies, and thus without high DR slash really hurts. Inaros can bypass this due to his tanking being a combo of health and armor tanking,

Negation swarm, also replaces Primed sure foot.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When it came to 'fixes' it was always in reference to how the Armour values were an unintended effect that they let go on too long. The damage side of Vex Armour was largely left unchanged and they even assured us on stream that the damage part was going to be 'as powerful as always'.

Now I'm willing to admit that I'm likely remembering this wrong, but didn't Vex Armor's damage buff also have broken math that made it double dip and boost the base damage and elemental damage of your weapons? I seem to remember it having broken, way-more-than-intended math on the damage boost side, too. 

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Wait... chroma is bad for steel path?

The problem isn't that he's bad. It's that his primary selling point is survivability, and even that isn't special anymore. Like not only are there warframes that are beefier than him, but survivability in this game in general is mostly a non-issue since the introduction of shield gating. 

Like when Vauban can effectively tank unlimited damage by abusing shield gating, while also having a ton of CC, armor strip, and scaling damage, then it doesn't make Chroma seem very attractive. 

Chroma will still do work even in Steel Path, of course, but he's pretty vastly eclipsed by a bunch of other Warframes. 

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I seriously wish people would stop using Steel Path to determine a frame’s viability when it’s no secret that DE are balancing around non-SP.

The power we have access to is outrageously overkill for everything, including Steel Path. So if they're not balancing around Steel Path, then what are they balancing around? 

Like if DE has any balance point in mind, they've given us entirely too much power to tackle that content. 

In fact, I'd honestly argue that Steel Path actually feels more balanced than most of the rest of the game, because those level ranges are the only content where it ever really feels like you have to be knowledgeable about how the game's mechanics work and use all of the tools you have at your disposal (weapons, parkour, and abilities; using multiple weapons together instead of just relying on one, etc) to overcome it. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, L3512 said:

Why?

Everything in the game can handle non SP.

DE also said SP would only be hard mode for people that wanted it with some cosmetic rewards.

Weekly rewards get introduced and now new arcanes and mods to make guns SP viable.

And yet how many frames use all of their designed abilities in SP?

Surprise, SP is a hard mode that requires changing things up and using, at the minimum, specific combinations. It means some things will fall to the wayside, but people don’t care about that anyways since most of the time they aren’t using a Warframe to their fullest since they’re overshadowed by overtuned weapons and a few abilities that shine in a situation where a player already isn’t easily threatened. Most of the game is the same; I challenge you to take a non-survival Warframe build and weapons that aren’t overtuned to, I dunno, a level 100 Lich defense. We had to play for that Vitality or Serration or whatever to reach those points; that’s part of what makes a Lich “Hard content”.

Balancing for non-SP means yes, that everything in the game can handle Star Chart, eventually. The whole point of Warframe is to choose your favourite piece of gear and it will see you through the main game. I’d be seriously questioning their idea of balancing for non-SP if that was not the case.

I’m not surprised at all that they introduced a handful of new things because players insist on living in SP. Can I bring my Lato to the fight? I don’t know, I don’t have the Arcanes or Galvenized mods yet since I have little interest in obtaining them at the moment.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

The power we have access to is outrageously overkill for everything, including Steel Path. So if they're not balancing around Steel Path, then what are they balancing around? 

Like if DE has any balance point in mind, they've given us entirely too much power to tackle that content. 

In fact, I'd honestly argue that Steel Path actually feels more balanced than most of the rest of the game, because those level ranges are the only content where it ever really feels like you have to be knowledgeable about how the game's mechanics work and use all of the tools you have at your disposal (weapons, parkour, and abilities; using multiple weapons together instead of just relying on one, etc) to overcome it. 

You played for that overkill power; the whole reason was to be overkill in the first place, was it not? It sure wasn’t handed to you on a silver platter. And you use that overkill power to, surprise, overkill! If you’re taking that build into a fight, what are you doing expecting it to be just enough?

Now comes Steel Path to turn that overkill build into “Just kill enough”, and you’re saying it’s balanced; it just kicked your build down a few pegs and it impacted you because you lived in said build for so long you forgot how to fight.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Uhkretor said:

I did that test in Steel Path without Galvanized mods and Arcanes... It kills stuff decently.

Neat. So now I can at least bring it to the fight.

 🤔 This would raise questions about abilities, but I’m guessing that as long as the Warframe itself is able to survive, that’s the equivilant of “At least bringing it to the fight”

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m guessing that as long as the Warframe itself is able to survive, that’s the equivilant of “At least bringing it to the fight”

Pretty much... Though I strongly suggest taking an Ammo Mutation mod for it if you do, but who knows, your build might work without changes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Uhkretor said:

Pretty much... Though I strongly suggest taking an Ammo Mutation mod for it if you do, but who knows, your build might work without changes.

Yeah. There’s so many spawns I’m not sure I’d get much use out of my Lato, but eh. If I wanted to see how my Lato can do in SP, I’ll see how it does 😋

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And yet how many frames use all of their designed abilities in SP?

I use one natural ability from Inaros in any gamemode, I can't think of a frame that doesn't have at least one replaceable ability.

 

19 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I challenge you to take a non-survival Warframe build and weapons that aren’t overtuned to, I dunno, a level 100 Lich defense.

Ok, why?

No way I'd choose to do a lich defense given the choice but whatever, what do you call a "non-survival warframe build"?

 

19 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Can I bring my Lato to the fight? I don’t know

Well Chroma is a better choice than many for trying that.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Ok, why?

No way I'd choose to do a lich defense given the choice but whatever, what do you call a "non-survival warframe build"?

Game’s objectively easy, right? Means that with a different combination of mods, it should be doable.

Hmm, non-survival 🤔 It’s not the best term to describe what I’m talking about, but you know that invincible build you would normally take to a level 100 fight?

Take not-that. Replace all those mods with…. hmm. Exilus and Augment.

Oh. Take an Umbral - nah, no Umbral. Take a Vigor. Maybe an Efficiency. Take Excalibur. Take a Rapid Resilience, because those slash procs suck.

Take something where you the player need to think “Okay, I failed. Was it because I made the wrong decisions at the wrong time? Could I have moved better or aimed better? Do I need to increase my damage or health, or do I just need to swap something around?”.

This should be standard fare thinking for Steel Path decisions, it’s just that the build is different

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...