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Why does RailJack exist? XD


AJAL8000
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Well this topic is made a bit of a joke and initially I had planned to put it in the Feedback forums, but on second thought, I think it looks better here. Also, first I thought about putting a huge text, but I think that with basic ideas you understand what I'm going to say.

Before starting I want to clarify that I love all the ideas that RailJack offers us and I think it's great that [DE] tries to innovate with new game modes, but there are serious problems in RailJack that seriously, I want them to be more seen in the community.

Everything that is in RailJack can be in normal missions.

I like how you play with the RailJack, you move in a ship and destroy enemy ships, simple but fun. But then they got missions like RailJack Survival. The idea does not sound so bad, but when you enter you find out that it is a simple survival with objectives that waste your time before properly entering the mission. This could easily just be placed in a "Special" Survival in the normal type of missions and that's it. This is for complicating the life of the player more?

If RailJack is the same as a normal mission, but slower and rewarding than at one point, they are useless. Why does it exist in the first place?

I think RailJack is a game mode for another game.

As I said before, I love the concepts, but I hate how they were applied. RailJack does not seem to work well and it also does not bring out its full potential when the game is about repeating the same mission at least 100 times a week (or day lol). RailJack need to be more efficient.

I feel that RailJack is poorly focused, the missions in RailJack should give better rewards so that going there makes sense, of course many will say that you can get Endo and Credits there, but the truth is, if I want to endo, I go to Sedna on Steel Path. If I want Credits, I go to the Index or do a Profit-Taker Orb in 3 minutes. Why would I want to go to RailJack then? If they wanted to give better rewards, why not buff the rewards of existing missions then?

I think to improve this, it would be better if they improve the rewards so that they make sense with the longer time it takes to do the mission.

RailJack has caused [DE] a lot of problems, both financially and in the time they spend in their own game. Honestly, if the RailJack is never going to stop being just a taxi to the main mission, why don't we just use the Orbiters?

I feel like RailJack shouldn't have existed and it would have been better if [DE] spent all that effort and money on something that was more productive and better for the game. RailJack was more work than profit in my opinion.

What do you think? Obviously I am not saying to remove RailJack, it would be wasting effort, time and money, both from the players and the developers. It's too late. But I would like to know if you think if it actually should have existed in the first place.

Also, it should be clarified that I am not mentioning the amount of problems caused by bugs or how the materials or rewards that come out in those missions seem to take forever to come out. I should mention it, but this goes beyond whether this game mode should even exist.

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15 minutes ago, AJAL8000 said:

RailJack has caused [DE] a lot of problems, both financially and in the time they spend in their own game. Honestly, if the RailJack is never going to stop being just a taxi to the main mission, why don't we just use the Orbiters?

I both agree and disagree here

Fundamentally I think the Orbiter should never go away as being a hub. Anthem proved a lot of things, and one of them is that being able to just hop on the map and pick a mission will ALWAYS be the superior way to run a long-term game. If I want to just crack a relic for Ducats, or just run a Capture mission for Nightwave, I can do that with about five seconds of clicking my mouse.

I also don't like the idea of the Orbiter being used as a combat vessel, I much prefer the oddball Railjack, Cy, Tenno, mix of Syndicate allies. But that one's just a personal taste thing

But in terms of the actual Railjack missions? I agree that DE dropped the ball hard with Corpus Railjack. Grineer Skirmish missions were done pretty well, because the focus is on the Railjack combat, and there are (theoretical) reasons for there to be home teams and away teams. But Corpus Railjack is just one mission for the price of two, there is literally no reason for them to exist. Aside from the Caches that reward Nautilus and Carmine Penta, you get literally nothing from doing them. If I wanted to do a Survival without any Railjack being involved, I would go to the Orbiter and do a Survival there

This could be fixed if DE replaces the Corpus Railjack missions with tweaked missions. What if in an Orphix mission, a player can go back into the Railjack and shoot something on the outside that lowers the Orphix Control Meter? What the Defense missions were replaced with some sort of "Extraction" mission? They could be similar to Hijack where you have a Defense team inside moving the Cryopod, but you also have a player in the Railjack to do the pickup somehow

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Railjack exists because Steve wanted to add it to the game, and has been wanting to add it to the game for years.

Railjack has normal missions incorporated into it because DE botched its release and implementation of Scarlet Spear. Players rightly criticized DE for not making Railjack more akin to what was shown in the TennoCon demos and for being separate from the main game. So, DE decided to add the normal missions into Railjack.

 

56 minutes ago, AJAL8000 said:

RailJack has caused [DE] a lot of problems, both financially and in the time they spend in their own game. Honestly, if the RailJack is never going to stop being just a taxi to the main mission, why don't we just use the Orbiters?

I feel like RailJack shouldn't have existed and it would have been better if [DE] spent all that effort and money on something that was more productive and better for the game. RailJack was more work than profit in my opinion.

What do you think? Obviously I am not saying to remove RailJack, it would be wasting effort, time and money, both from the players and the developers. It's too late. But I would like to know if you think if it actually should have existed in the first place.

I agree. The way I see it: Railjack has become an albatross around DE's neck. At the same time, whether or not it is profitable only DE would know. Railjacks can be bought via platinum so only DE knows how profitable it is.

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Railjack exists because Steve wanted to add it to the game, and has been wanting to add it to the game for years.
 

Pretty much. I like Steve's enthusiasm and his passion, but I think the engine warframe uses is limiting for what his imagination wants to do. 

That being said, I am starting to see more of the pieces of the puzzle that he wants to put together fall into place, but its a long way yet to go. IMO where RJ needs to be is still very much in alpha.

I understand Steve's entire concept is to have everything connected between mission/orbiter/rj, and trying to make you feel more like you are flying TO your mission, etc (maybe even open world one day, but they really flubbed on that......), but I think the issues are that: 

1) We have a few attempts to try to get there, but we really aren't close, in terms of true immersion or connection yet. 

2) The closest attempt to this dream are the new Taxijack, and I think with how quickly they got that nickname, it is clear why they didn't work. I think much better rewards could make a difference, because it is about time played.

If taking my RJ to a survival mission on board ship is supposed to be a more immersive way for me to enter a mission instead of just being dropped into a vent, then DE has to realize people are basically being asked to spend several minutes on an interactive loading screen before the "real" mission starts, so they just hate it. If DE wants to go full immersion to the point we are drawing out something like loading/taxiing into a mission, then it better be rewarding or people just won't find it worth it/enjoyable, etc. In the short term, this could at least make a difference while working on the structural flaws and trying to see what more magic they can coax out of their limited engine. 

But yeah basically tl;dr the op is right. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

but I think the engine warframe uses is limiting for what his imagination wants to do. 

I don't think the engine has anything to do with Railjack's failures. There's the thing with spawns, sure, but that's only a problem because DE tried to take the easy path and just put regular missions into Corpus Railjack instead of creating new ones. Railjack's failures are purely a design problem.

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3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Pretty much. I like Steve's enthusiasm and his passion, but I think the engine warframe uses is limiting for what his imagination wants to do. 

That being said, I am starting to see more of the pieces of the puzzle that he wants to put together fall into place, but its a long way yet to go. IMO where RJ needs to be is still very much in alpha.

Yeah. RJ, especially during launch day, reminds me of my months-long assignment projects during college. You can see the vision on the end results while being an almost completely different thing due to rushing them out in just one week. While I abandoned those projects after they were graded, DE is still working on RJ. Hopefully. I have high hopes for RJ after looking at how cool the New War trailer is.

With that being said, I spent my Christmas and New Year on RJ during its launch day when it had more bugs than beds in shady motels. I guess I'm a sucker for space combat and RJ is my current fix since Freelancer isn't sold anywhere and Star Citizen won't come out until Melon Husk gives us space car.

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15 minutes ago, acevezwing said:

With that being said, I spent my Christmas and New Year on RJ during its launch day when it had more bugs than beds in shady motels. I guess I'm a sucker for space combat and RJ is my current fix since Freelancer isn't sold anywhere and Star Citizen won't come out until Melon Husk gives us space car.

Luckily, DE is not CiG and Warframe actually exists and is a playable game.

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1 hour ago, AJAL8000 said:

Well this topic is made a bit of a joke and initially I had planned to put it in the Feedback forums, but on second thought, I think it looks better here. Also, first I thought about putting a huge text, but I think that with basic ideas you understand what I'm going to say.

Before starting I want to clarify that I love all the ideas that RailJack offers us and I think it's great that [DE] tries to innovate with new game modes, but there are serious problems in RailJack that seriously, I want them to be more seen in the community.

Everything that is in RailJack can be in normal missions.

I like how you play with the RailJack, you move in a ship and destroy enemy ships, simple but fun. But then they got missions like RailJack Survival. The idea does not sound so bad, but when you enter you find out that it is a simple survival with objectives that waste your time before properly entering the mission. This could easily just be placed in a "Special" Survival in the normal type of missions and that's it. This is for complicating the life of the player more?

If RailJack is the same as a normal mission, but slower and rewarding than at one point, they are useless. Why does it exist in the first place?

I think RailJack is a game mode for another game.

As I said before, I love the concepts, but I hate how they were applied. RailJack does not seem to work well and it also does not bring out its full potential when the game is about repeating the same mission at least 100 times a week (or day lol). RailJack need to be more efficient.

I feel that RailJack is poorly focused, the missions in RailJack should give better rewards so that going there makes sense, of course many will say that you can get Endo and Credits there, but the truth is, if I want to endo, I go to Sedna on Steel Path. If I want Credits, I go to the Index or do a Profit-Taker Orb in 3 minutes. Why would I want to go to RailJack then? If they wanted to give better rewards, why not buff the rewards of existing missions then?

I think to improve this, it would be better if they improve the rewards so that they make sense with the longer time it takes to do the mission.

RailJack has caused [DE] a lot of problems, both financially and in the time they spend in their own game. Honestly, if the RailJack is never going to stop being just a taxi to the main mission, why don't we just use the Orbiters?

I feel like RailJack shouldn't have existed and it would have been better if [DE] spent all that effort and money on something that was more productive and better for the game. RailJack was more work than profit in my opinion.

What do you think? Obviously I am not saying to remove RailJack, it would be wasting effort, time and money, both from the players and the developers. It's too late. But I would like to know if you think if it actually should have existed in the first place.

Also, it should be clarified that I am not mentioning the amount of problems caused by bugs or how the materials or rewards that come out in those missions seem to take forever to come out. I should mention it, but this goes beyond whether this game mode should even exist.

Warframe is like a girl while we want it to be like a boy
Warframe try to look different every day try to change makeup and haircut try to change dresses as often so ppl see something new everyday
Where we want Warframe to be a boy find 1 pair of favorite pants or shorts 1 haircut that will look cool and 1 tshirt that we love to see and just keep wearing it

We dont care about new haircut or new dresses because we want to like what become common to us
While Warframe know that if there is way to be hottest chick in town which is original and unique new hair style and makeup and dress is mandatory thing to have

Pretty much thats why we get more of new stuff and ideas rather than reworking of old content

Other problem of the story is that Warframe is very good at reminding us we are playing game called WARFRAME when we play game mode called RJ
While at the same time fail to remind us we are playing game called WARFRAME and not Google or Wiki or Youtube when we need some pice of information

Now that girl of ours want to look fresh and new so she get new dress and we are amazed she look so cool and its nice to our eyes but then next day comes
And our pretty girl know its time to make that dress from yesterday look cool today where most logical solution would be to add something new to that dress
Like idk maybe a flower or a scarf or whatever and instead girl cares to remind us at what kind of girl we are looking at and instead of putting allot of work and effort into her look
Her big change of the day is now that whenever we gonna see her in that dress we like she will wore same pair of shoos
And we just cant understand why that girl which try to look original each and everyday go for such easy solution
While she just try to remind us we are looking at the same girl and not someone else so she decide not change her look by 360° so she go easy and safe route by combining something new with core part of her look

And that is full metaphoric explanation of why RJ looks like it looks

On top of that what is easier to do
1 - Codding in RJ being able to destroy IDK lets say OPRHIX from space?
2 - Maybe being able to damage existing ships and platforms/asteroids with RJ?
3 - Adding/creating new enemies types
OR
1 - Changing RJ just into means of transportation to a regular mission that already exist
2 - Adding targets on a ships platforms/asteroids to destroy (which is like placing few stationary enemies in certain spots on the map)
3 - Giving old enemies which require some gimmick to kill (Crew Ships) additional shield which you can only destroy by your RJ secondary/additional weapon

Its not hard to answer all your question when you think little deeper into it
Look MANY MANY MANY of us dont play X mode because of rewards but just because its good
NO REWARD in any game will make you play something as much as good design of that part of the game
 

So imagine if instead of 3 types of targets (flying ships, crew ships and stationary targets on flag ships or platforms/asteroids) we have ships that chase us with passion and we need to run away maneuver to avoid their attacks
Like instead of being busy with repairing our RJ we could just focus on combat? (imagine doing rescue mission and being forced to resurrect hostage each 5 steps)
Imagine chasing some flag ship (kinda like saturn/pandora) where we would take down piece by piece of the ship to stop it
Imagine mobile def when we go from 1 ship to another with RJ where we need to make our way by letting enemies taste our bullets
Where we go out on AW to ship and shove in data mass from outside of that ship and then we defend it with our AW

 

There is so much stuff that could be done and which would make RJ awesome experience
But again ask yourself do we play warframe? or do we play Railjack?

Do we want months of dev work just to make better RJ experience where FOR SURE it will bring new bugs
Or what we have is ACCEPTABLE at best and we can live with that?

Im happy we have what we have im not happy with all decisions im just happy we dont have less

BTW making forward artillery only means to destroy CS is damn stupid because what after CS lose all HP it become immune to bullets or wtf?
Forward artillery should be reserved to splitting flag ships into two like we seen it in the trailer and nothing more 

 

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Why is it that every time anyone tries to criticize the on-ship missions in Railjack they conveniently forget that only makes up half of the mission while also only being in half of the Railjack nodes? Corpus Railjack can boil down to just using it as a taxi but choosing to do that doesn't mean it's the only function of it in those missions nor does it invalidate all the Grineer missions which focus on ship combat.

And with the rewards you're ignoring that you're not getting any noteworthy amount of Endo out of the other Credit farms nor are you getting Credits out of Endo farms. While Railjack lets you get both, a lot of affinity, and Relics all at the same time. If you want to be hyper efficient and nothing else while you do the exact same activity for an hour then go to the dedicated farms while Railjack is there to cover all possible needs and break up the monotony.

Railjack would have done far better if it didn't get the giant delays and release in multiple delayed parts but the end result we have now is more than justified as a part of the game.

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2 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

the missions in RailJack should give better rewards so that going there makes sense

First of All... Do you really want DE to bribe you into playing crappy content and second of all... They already did multiple Bribes for playing Railjack didn't they ?

 

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I feel railjack is already one of the most rewarding modes to play, period. Is it true that you an get more endo elsewhere? yes. Credits? yep. Relics? sure. But all together? and add in some corrupted holokeys and prime parts ontop of all that. I have a hard time thinking there's anything else close to how rewarding the various nodes are.  It's not without issues, of course, even in this respect, as we're still dealing with getting thousands of sevagoth/epithaph parts, and holokeys still feel bad in terms of drop rate. 

 

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

But in terms of the actual Railjack missions? I agree that DE dropped the ball hard with Corpus Railjack. Grineer Skirmish missions were done pretty well, because the focus is on the Railjack combat, and there are (theoretical) reasons for there to be home teams and away teams. But Corpus Railjack is just one mission for the price of two, there is literally no reason for them to exist. Aside from the Caches that reward Nautilus and Carmine Penta, you get literally nothing from doing them. If I wanted to do a Survival without any Railjack being involved, I would go to the Orbiter and do a Survival there

Grineer skirmish to me *is* railjack, but pretty much this. Even scarlet spear was more of a railjack mission than most corpus railjack. An attempt is made on volatile I guess, as you have to hop back to hit a spot, but having the whole team have to go in, and then come out feels really bad. Corpus railjack also doesn't give everyone something to do when you have a full squad, so many times the beginning is just waiting for the actual mission to start. Even comparing the rewards to skirmish corpus railjack seems bad. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I *love* railjack. I also can see plain as day that there are still serious issues with it. I'd say roughly 10% of the time I encounter a significant bug, which is considerably higher than anywhere else in the game.  The matchmaking is absolutely terrible. There's still nothing preventing tenno from queueing into veil proxima with base railjack, which screws over the rest of the party. Gunnery 10 makes me sad. Elite crewmates aren't worth the considerable investment to get to being able to hire them, let alone their actual price. SO MANY ISSUES.

But this is why they continue to pour time and resources into it. Because it still feels underbaked at points. There is still great potential with it, but it has yet to really tie into the greater warframe game as a whole. 

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the biggest issue i have with railjack is it's actively forces you to get out of your ship and do mindless tasks outside of it, i like the gameplay of the railjack but there is only one mission on earth proxima with the only objective kill enemies. if i wanted to play normal missions i already had access to a bunch of them, i'm on railjack to play railjack ...

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Railjack plays as a better space combat game than some dedicated space combat games. I think it blends into Warframe gameplay well. Your not totally disconnected from your Warframe and you fly around to different combat engagements. 

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5 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

Everything that is in RailJack can be in normal missions.

I do believe they should have put at least one Skirmish node on each Corpus Proxima, both to introduce the fighter enemies and crewships and to add a little variety. the Corpus Fighters have really cool designs IMO, and the Crewships too, but there's literally no reason to take down Fighters save to defend the Railjack, and the Crewships only sometimes are an objective. I still want to see a mode where we actually raid a Galleon, Capital ship or Obelisk for it's contents: wipe out the escorts and outer defenses, dock the Railjack into it, and then escort and load a payload onto our railjack under heavy fire, then make a quick getaway with the loot. whe have ships, we have a pirate frame (hydroid), but we have no Piracy!

5 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

I think RailJack is a game mode for another game.

As I said before, I love the concepts, but I hate how they were applied. RailJack does not seem to work well and it also does not bring out its full potential when the game is about repeating the same mission at least 100 times a week (or day lol). RailJack need to be more efficient.

Railjack is an example of DE wanting to keep trying new things, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you bear in mind two things:

- not every new addition will feel like it belongs: you argue that railjack doesn't belong, but in a sci fi game, I think ship combat is appropriate. K-drives on the other hand.. why? Archwings are an outright superior mode of transport. we all have different opinions on what should and shouldn't be in warframe, and DE can't please everyone.

- new additions shouldn't detract from the core of the game: I've seen people saying that Warframe has abandoned it's core gameplay, and in some respects I have to agree: there should be more focus on the warframes themselves and reworking them to be more viable, making sure the gun and melee combat feels as it should etc. in the past DE has done their best to address this, but the fact is we are in a situation where mechs and Railjacks are being brought out more often and the frames are being pushed slighltly out of centre stage.

6 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

Honestly, if the RailJack is never going to stop being just a taxi to the main mission, why don't we just use the Orbiters?

I'm hoping that with the Next Scarlet spear that there will be more of a focus on space combat for the railjack team, rtaher than just carrying the (rather flimsy) satellite. then again, I also hoped they'd sped up the drone and maybe reworked Hemocyte for Plague Star and they didn't, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same old Scarlet Spear.

6 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

I would like to know if you think if it actually should have existed in the first place.

I think i would've been able to live with it if it never happened, but there aren't really many games with spaceship combat that entertain me, so it fills a hole. a lot of the hype for me - and probably others - was because of Tennocon 2019; if DE had never released that trailer until after the mode was properly functioning, things would have gone better, but what actually happened was they promised us almost a game within a game, and what we actually got was a buggy mess with a lot of potential, but only much later once it was fixed and necessary QoL changes were made.

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I mean, it could be interesting if everything seamlessly centered around the Railjack instead of the Orbiter. The Orbiter is essentially a waiting room detached from the game. The Railjack is theoretically always in the game and space combat always a risk... even during normal lander missions!

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I only just started getting into it, so I avoided a lot of bugs, but I actually like railjack even though I expected not to.

The endo you get is great and I got 20 holokeys in 2 days.

The void storm is actually gorgeous. It could use some cleaning up obviously but I was super impressed with how the space environment and design look.

And FYI, you have grineer and corpus railjack which are different. 

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The problem with Railjack is that it has the potential to be an amazing game mode but DE absolutely refuses to accept that and instead keep trying to please the whiners that cry "mimimi RJ is not warframe" by copy-pasting standard on-foot gameplay into it.

 

Railjack is a spaceship gamemode. About spaceships. IN SPACE. Stop trying to turn it into a standard on-foot mission. If I wanted to play on-foot, I'd play an on-foot mission. I play RJ because I want to fly my god damn ship, DE.

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Warframe is a game that is willing to take great risks when it comes to new content, and I think that's pretty cool.  Remember Lunaro?  It was a risk that didn't pay off.  There's also mining, fishing, conservation...judge them how you will.  Railjack, however, is a risk that definitely paid off.  It's currently very fun.  Is it perfectly integrated with the rest of the game?  Not yet, there are still some growing pains to get past.  But it's in great shape now, and it's a very fun experience.

To directly answer your question, it seems like you're question's foundation is that games need to more-or-less gravitate around a central idea, and that all of the mechanics and systems should support that idea, and there should be coherent and transparent reasons for their existence.  There are some valid reasons to think that, but if we're talking about creating great art and great experiences, I think we need to throw ideas like that in the trash.  If adding kart racing or Pokemon battles or dating sim features gave players more things to do that they enjoyed, add them.  It doesn't need to make sense, it doesn't need to fit established patterns of game design, it just needs to be fun.  If conventional models are preventing such fun, destroy them! :)

 

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I think normal missions inside railjack is silly. My solution:

Spoiler

5obcz7.jpg

I think the Volitile game mode is a challenging addition (although some players think it's just annoying).

I feel like DE got the Railjack Spy all wrong:

Spoiler

5obduy.jpg

This is what Railjack Assassination should look like:

Spoiler

5obfrp.gif

This is what Heaven-to-Earth (RAID battle) Railjack missions should look like:

Spoiler

q6jmfZa.gif

 

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1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

I think normal missions inside railjack is silly. My solution:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obcz7.jpg

I think the Volitile game mode is a challenging addition (although some players think it's just annoying).

I feel like DE got the Railjack Spy all wrong:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obduy.jpg

This is what Railjack Assassination should look like:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obfrp.gif

This is what Heaven-to-Earth (RAID battle) Railjack missions should look like:

  Hide contents

q6jmfZa.gif

 

This is pretty much what Railjack should be because this mode actually focuses on the Railjack.

The current problem with Railjack is that you literally spend more time on the enemies ship than you do your own. For a mode that prides itself on being able to fly a space ship you hardly get to do just that.

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11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't think the engine has anything to do with Railjack's failures. There's the thing with spawns, sure, but that's only a problem because DE tried to take the easy path and just put regular missions into Corpus Railjack instead of creating new ones. Railjack's failures are purely a design problem.

I may be under a mistaken impression, I am mostly going off that one demonstration with the open world stuff that is still not close to fruition. But if it is just they are still working on bugs or other issues, and it isn't that they realized it wasn't something they could properly do for real, then I am happy to be corrected if wrong. I will not try to pretend to be an expert on this. 

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2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I think normal missions inside railjack is silly. My solution:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obcz7.jpg

I think the Volitile game mode is a challenging addition (although some players think it's just annoying).

I feel like DE got the Railjack Spy all wrong:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obduy.jpg

This is what Railjack Assassination should look like:

  Reveal hidden contents

5obfrp.gif

This is what Heaven-to-Earth (RAID battle) Railjack missions should look like:

  Reveal hidden contents

q6jmfZa.gif

 

Can't it be both? :tongue:

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10 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I may be under a mistaken impression, I am mostly going off that one demonstration with the open world stuff that is still not close to fruition. But if it is just they are still working on bugs or other issues, and it isn't that they realized it wasn't something they could properly do for real, then I am happy to be corrected if wrong. I will not try to pretend to be an expert on this. 

Ah, I meant the gameplay they actually released. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the 2018 Vallis to Railjack concept was passed over for similar reasons as everything else. I don't see any technical reasons they couldn't make that work, since they've made seamless mission transitions work in the rest of Railjack.

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