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What is the real reason that DE wont support endurance runs and scaling rewards.


(XBOX)Harbinger XK5
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No official statement.

My personal thoughts? It's because endurance runs with scaling rewards encourage a type of gameplay they don't design the game around. They don't measure how Hydroid or Yareli perform against level 300+ enemies and thus don't adjust their stats around said levels.

In addition, scaling endurance would actually cut on the grind, which is something I'd presume they don't want either.

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They haven't had an "official" statement but its not something that is hard to understand if you put a few other things together.

 

The biggest one is the focus on "bite-sized" content and gameplay that "you can do during lunch".
The reason?  Because the biggest market (by far) is the "casual" market that players games maybe an hour or two a day.  That's it.
That's where games like this make the majority of their population and the majority of their profits.

IF DE started to go "Yeah, if you play this mode for 1.5+ hours at a time then you can get some serious rewards!" it starts telling the "casual" audience "Hey, you're not really welcome here since you can't spend 1.5 hours per mission, so don't try as you simply can't catch up with the people who can!"

DE is simply targeting what makes them the most money and the largest player counts: The people who can't spend 3+ hours a day on "endurance" runs.  They don't want to alienate those players by going "Yeah, you're not really getting rewards if you can't do endurance runs...."
And you might say "But we aren't taking rewards away from them, why would they feel alienated?" and its simply the fact that they are told "If you go X hours you get massively more rewards....any time less than that is essentially wasted!"
It could actually drive away a decent number of the more "casual" playerbase as they know that they wouldn't be able to sit down and do the multi-hour grindfest on a regular basis needed to actually take advantage of the endurance runs.

 

And honestly?  I'm perfectly OK with that.
Sure, I may have more time than the average person to sit down and play games...but I actually enjoy games that don't go "Yeah, you're going to be forced to do an endurance run if you want a shot at the se rewards....any less time spent than a full endurance run is essentially time wasted!"
Having a game that I can log in, play for an hour and burn through dailies/weeklies and do some light grinding is great, and I don't feel punished by the fact that I can't set aside multi hour grind fests to do one mission.
And I know that I am far from alone in that.

Edited by Tsukinoki
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It is due to the bite sized nature of the game. We can even see how steel path got changed to fit that idea much better and be far more profitable at the same time for the players. And I prefer that, I dont like any game with content that drags on hours before the rewards start coming, too much S#&$ can happen in that time span, more so when you have S#&$show peer-to-peer to rely on in multiplayer.

I hope DE never changes their opinion regarding this.

edit: If they were to add "scaling" rewards to "endless" they should rework the idea of endless aswell. Make it something we can come back to. So you start out at base level and play for an hour, jump out, and then the next time you sit down for a session you can pick up where you left off at the higher difficulty. That I could see working, since it would also be less impacted by disconnects and so on.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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most of you are ignoring the fact that such runs are now optional in game, only reason you are aiming for it should be for fun. if you doing this to grind something then you're playing it wrong i guess. since warframe has shifted it's focus from long grind. by this i mean doing a specific mission which only drops needed item after hour+. 

now imagine if they do add scalable item, say some new resource which at 20mins survival will drop 5 times but at 2 hours mark you will get 200. now this punishes those players who have work and not able invest such time in game, also any network #*!% up can screw things wasting their runs. 

so in short, play long endurance just for fun, if you want rewards then just open your 500+ relics and sell items for plat, buy some sh-t with that plat and consider that your scalable reward. 

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32 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

most of you are ignoring the fact that such runs are now optional in game, only reason you are aiming for it should be for fun. if you doing this to grind something then you're playing it wrong i guess. since warframe has shifted it's focus from long grind

That's the best joke I've heard all day. "shifted from it's focus from long grind" look at the drop rates and tell me if you can still say that with a straight face.

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Some ideas:

  • Keep it fresh. Warframe's customization is its lifeblood. It helps players enjoy the grindy gameplay more when they can customize their experience of it: same mission several times, but switching up how you play it keeps things fresher. Shorter missions mean you're less likely to feel burnt out afterwards and lets you swap playstyle more often.
  • Feeling of accomplishment. The End of Mission moment is a hit of dopamine and a moment to check your progress. Longer missions will deliver a bigger hit, but more hits from their play session may be more satisfying to some players.
  • Appeal to the masses. The casual market (the "weekend warriors", as was mentioned by a dev at some point) is bigger than the hardcore market. Giving a big advantage to hardcore players favors one dedication and/or schedule over another's, potentially driving away a casual market.
  • Foreign Influence. Warframe isn't crazy huge in the Chinese market. But it does exist there, China's market is massive, and its government has been cracking down on video game usage hard. Like, ID required to log into a game so they can limit when and how much you game per week (for minors), in an effort to prevent addicition. Incentivizing an hour-long mission could mean the average young player in China would have to dedicate a large percentage of their weekly playtime for just that run. Offering bite-sized missions means that players who are strapped for time because of government restrictions may be more likely to play your game.
  • Softened meta. As Warframe is built currently, completing long Endurance runs is not at all about skill; it's pretty much entirely about your patience, free time and adherence to a conflict-trivializing meta. Less incentive to run long Endurance means less reason to think one must play the meta, opening the game up to greater variety.
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32 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

That's the best joke I've heard all day. "shifted from it's focus from long grind" look at the drop rates and tell me if you can still say that with a straight face.

It helps if you read the full comment:

1 hour ago, Dauggie said:

if you doing this to grind something then you're playing it wrong i guess. since warframe has shifted it's focus from long grind. by this i mean doing a specific mission which only drops needed item after hour+.

 

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3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

This is going to be wishful thinking on my part but I hope the reason is that they realized that it's just garbage content.

This !!!

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is due to the bite sized nature of the game. We can even see how steel path got changed to fit that idea much better and be far more profitable at the same time for the players. And I prefer that, I dont like any game with content that drags on hours before the rewards start coming, too much S#&$ can happen in that time span, more so when you have S#&$show peer-to-peer to rely on in multiplayer

Yeah they realised that during the Kuva Survival Nightwave Act back when you had to do it for over an Hour 😱 !!!

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

 

I'm sure that is what people want hear. Do  y'all  feel validated?

Alil bit... Yes 😁 !!!

1 hour ago, Dauggie said:

also any network #*!% up can screw things wasting their runs. 

They should probably start working on this First...

 

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If it existed, i pretty sure DE would win the nobel prize for no official statements at this time (or any time).

Seriously though, we're lucky if it even gets acknowledged. They tell us so little now a days its clearly hurting their rep with their players, take this whole post's existence as just 1 example.

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5 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Sure DE has given us reason but they have changed so many times that i can't take them seriously at this point until they can give a reason that is riddled with holes.

What others have said but the distinction needs to be made as to why in monetary terms…casuals need to be rewarded and represented in the economy of the game by way of volume/sheer numbers.

You can’t have the fringe holding the economy hostage…compounded by the fact that scaling rewards and endurance runs would exacerbate this even more.

Edited by (PSN)Silverback73
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3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

They tell us so little now a days its clearly hurting their rep with their players, take this whole post's existence as just 1 example.

Mate, if you use the existence of negative threads as your measurement, DE never had a positive rep to hurt.

The simple truth is that despite what some would have you believe, endurance runs have never been DE's focus. It's always been purely a community-based fixation.

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6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: If they were to add "scaling" rewards to "endless" they should rework the idea of endless aswell. Make it something we can come back to. So you start out at base level and play for an hour, jump out, and then the next time you sit down for a session you can pick up where you left off at the higher difficulty. That I could see working, since it would also be less impacted by disconnects and so on.

Rather imagine if they added something new to the game instead: The Cetus tower could become a progressive Orokin-tileset dungeon with a monthly reset.

Konzu: "Ai yo... Tenno! There's something strange going on with the Unum tower. Be a pal and go check it out for old Konsu, would you?"

An "endless" of the non-endless missions, you progress through the tower with each new floor featuring a different mission type from the previous and enemies leveled +10. Each mission ends with a choice to either progress to the next floor or extract from the tower. So long as there hasn't been a monthly reset next time you queue in you continue from your previous point of extraction.

How and what rewards would 'scale' from that if at all would be up to DE to figure out. I'm just thinking it might be a fun new way to present the missions in addition to what we have now. I know they can do it because a part of that kind of already exists with SO/ESO just without progress preservation.

 

Then again, maybe this is just effectively combining nightwave with SO.

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7 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

Sure DE has given us reason but they have changed so many times that i can't take them seriously at this point until they can give a reason that is riddled with holes.

It's really simple. 

DE wants the game to be "something you can play while waiting for a date", they don't want casuals to feel cutoff. 

If they make endurance have scaling rewards, it starts to become more and more THE way to farm if you don't want to be like a backwoods hill person way behind everyone else. And then people who are more casual feel pressured to do endurance they don't enjoy, or not get nearly as good rewards as those who have the time or patience to sit down for hours in one survival mission. 

So they don't entirely get rid of them, because some of the fanbase enjoys doing them for the sake of it, but don't ever expect them to add scaling endurance rewards. It just goes against a core part of the design philosophy, and they want to bring in more casuals, not drive away the ones they have. 

That is THE only significant reason they really won't do it, in my personal opinion. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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5 hours ago, Dauggie said:

most of you are ignoring the fact that such runs are now optional in game, only reason you are aiming for it should be for fun. if you doing this to grind something then you're playing it wrong i guess.

It's technically "optional", but research has shown that game players seek the optimal strategy even if it's not fun. Mark Rosewater (head designer of Magic: The Gathering) talks about how the Threshold mechanic in Odyssey block encouraged players to discard their whole hand (the optimal strategy). Then, they had no more cards to play, and they felt the game was unfun, even though they made it so by their own choices. Game designers need to recognise how people play games, and that means in some cases removing choices that make the game less fun. Many people do not find it fun to play a single mission for 3+ hours (and others have mentioned how many cannot play missions that long), but they may be "forced" to if the game encourages endurance runs. That will ultimately drive them away.

4 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

The biggest challenge about long endurance runs has always been not falling asleep. It's so boring, you have to be an absolute psychopath to enjoy that stuff,

It helps if you're listening to a podcast while doing it or maybe watching a video on another screen.

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