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Nidus Prime vs Lore


ZeroX4
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1 minute ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I honestly think a lot of these sorts of continuity issues are due to DE just not caring about making it make sense.  They will literally say one thing then contradict it with the next content drop and leave both in the game.  I say this because you have a point about the Valk Prime trailer, and yet her lore for the base frame says that I am also right.

Then again, like we've both mentioned, nothing even says these are cut from the same cloth.  For all we know, void relics allow access to a timeline that just has better stuff and we're yoinking it.  Dimension #44 Ballas is just way better at making warframes than the Ballas we got that only wants to chase tail.

Until DE nails literally anything in place we aren't going to have an answer.

Sadly yeah, but it's always safer to look at the newer lore as the actual correct version then going off of older data. 

Retconning gets annoying (and I won't deny that they did that with Valkyr), but if that's what DE wants the lore to be, then that's what it would be.

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2 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Was my clan mate right or wrong to say nidus prime would be a conflict with lore and so we wont have his primed version? (which was like 4-5 years ago)
Whatever yes or no then why? Whats the idea behind it?
Why @(XBOX)C11H22O11 said pre sacrifice it would be against lore to have nidus in prime but post sacrifice it should be ok?

Sorry, Pre sacrifice just didn't have much info on warframes, so seeing Nidus as an infested warframe and people knowing that only tenno stuff can be primed back then it would make sense to believe that he would be an exception, but then sacrifice shows that all Warframes are infested, helminth strain, so Nidus turned from "wtf" to "Oh he's just naked" 

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3 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

 

Before you two get this topic locked could you at least try to answer my questions since seems you both know stuff related to lore?

Was my clan mate right or wrong to say nidus prime would be a conflict with lore and so we wont have his primed version? (which was like 4-5 years ago)
Whatever yes or no then why? Whats the idea behind it?
Why @(XBOX)C11H22O11 said pre sacrifice it would be against lore to have nidus in prime but post sacrifice it should be ok?

Your clan mate was possibly right at the time, but Nidus Prime fits into the lore perfectly fine. As was previously stated. The Sacrifice quest explains why Nidus works as a prime. 

Sacrifice introduced players to what makes a Warframe. Spoiler, it is the same stuff that makes Nidus Nidus...

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Sadly yeah, but it's always safer to look at the newer lore as the actual correct version then going off of older data. 

Retconning gets annoying (and I won't deny that they did that with Valkyr), but if that's what DE wants the lore to be, then that's what it would be

Yeah let me make it clear that my explanation is not Canon, DE has the right to say what is and what isn't, it's just the best I can make with the information the game gives in a way that doesn't contradict anything. Valkyr prime is in the game she's canon so there's an explanation and that's what I would like to see more instead of saying it doesn't make sense.

Until DE says something it's all we have

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9 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

 

Before you two get this topic locked could you at least try to answer my questions since seems you both know stuff related to lore?

Was my clan mate right or wrong to say nidus prime would be a conflict with lore and so we wont have his primed version? (which was like 4-5 years ago)
Whatever yes or no then why? Whats the idea behind it?
Why @(XBOX)C11H22O11 said pre sacrifice it would be against lore to have nidus in prime but post sacrifice it should be ok?

No, because the Sacrifice tells us that the Orokin fashioned Warframes out of people infected with a special strain of the Infestation, the Helminth, in order to create super-soldiers capable of fighting the Sentients. They took their best and brightest, and, willing or not, used them to create their new "anti-technology" army.

While it wasn't outright confirmed, we've had hints that Warframes were Infested for years well before the Sacrifice. Certain boss dialogues mentioning how we were the same flesh, a lot of Warframes requiring Infested materials, the fact we were the only thing sent on extermination missions since we were immune, the list goes on. Once we learned that the Orokin made us to fight the Sentients, and that any level of technology didn't work on them, it was a pretty easy guessing game as time went on.

The Sacrifice was just confirmation, but we've had many heavy-handed implications along the way.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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All I gathered from Nidus Prime was that the Orokin knew how to make decorative infested flesh that even had pigments capable of gold coloration! But over a thousand years, that coloration was lost through evolution...

Edited by nslay
s/other/over/g
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

One-off's only exist if there are no blueprints for them to be remade.  The blueprints exist, we remade them, they are no longer unique.

They exist as gameplay concessions. Concessions are not statements about the lore.

It's the same reason why Yamcha can wipe the floor with Ultra Instinct Goku in DBZ games despite the impossibility of such an action being possible lore-wise.

Edited by Jarriaga
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When you consider the Ivara Leverian, the normal ones already existed and were tested to be worthy, "be remembered".

They wouldnt enhance something unworthy or something that has not proven itself.

I can conclude that every single Warframe began as the normal ones and the Primes are enhanced after they had proven themselves to be worthy.

As the Warframes were piloted, it was more of a weapons test to see if it was worth of being made better.

So: no, Nidus Prime doesnt break Lore.

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11 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Sorry, Pre sacrifice just didn't have much info on warframes, so seeing Nidus as an infested warframe and people knowing that only tenno stuff can be primed back then it would make sense to believe that he would be an exception, but then sacrifice shows that all Warframes are infested, helminth strain, so Nidus turned from "wtf" to "Oh he's just naked" 

 

11 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Your clan mate was possibly right at the time, but Nidus Prime fits into the lore perfectly fine. As was previously stated. The Sacrifice quest explains why Nidus works as a prime. 

Sacrifice introduced players to what makes a Warframe. Spoiler, it is the same stuff that makes Nidus Nidus...

 

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

No, because the Sacrifice tells us that the Orokin fashioned Warframes out of people infected with a special strain of the Infestation, the Helminth, in order to create super-soldiers capable of fighting the Sentients. They took their best and brightest, and, willing or not, used them to create their new "anti-technology" army.

While it wasn't outright confirmed, we've had hints that Warframes were Infested for years well before the Sacrifice. Certain boss dialogues mentioning how we were the same flesh, a lot of Warframes requiring Infested materials, the fact we were the only thing sent on extermination missions since we were immune, the list goes on. Once we learned that the Orokin made us to fight the Sentients, and that any level of technology didn't work on them, it was a pretty easy guessing game as time went on.

The Sacrifice was just confirmation, but we've had many heavy-handed implications along the way.

Ok bless you all just tell me do i understand it correctly

1. PRE-sacrifice no 1 knew origins of non-prime versions of warframes while primed ones were creation of orokin or tenno?
2. Nidus being infested themed warframe was for sure not made by orokin/tenno so thats why my clan mate said having nidus prime would have conflict with the lore?
3. Where primed variants are the ORIGINAL versions and non-primed warframes are just some kind of lesser copy of primed ones made by infested?
4. Where in sacrifice its explained that non-prime warframes are made from helminth strain so post-sacrifice turns out he perfectly fits in into being able to have prime version since non-prime versions are made based on primed version?

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4 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

When you consider the Ivara Leverian, the normal ones already existed and were tested to be worthy, "be remembered".

They wouldnt enhance something unworthy or something that has not proven itself.

I can conclude that every single Warframe began as the normal ones and the Primes are enhanced after they had proven themselves to be worthy.

As the Warframes were piloted, it was more of a weapons test to see if it was worth of being made better.

So: no, Nidus Prime doesnt break Lore.

I think it's the other way around; "regular" WF's are imperfect copies or mass-produced "streamlined" versions after Primes rather than prototypes. After all, Excalibur Prime's codex entry refers to him as the first WF. This means Excalibur did not exist before Excalibur Prime.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I think it's the other way around; "regular" WF's are imperfect copies or mass-produced "streamlined" versions after Primes rather than prototypes. After all, Excalibur Prime's codex entry refers to him as the first WF. This means Excalibur did not exist before Excalibur Prime.

Normal Excalibur also has the same description.

Just "Excalibur" is mentioned. Not "Excalibur Prime".

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Do people actually pay attention ??? like ever ???

Prime stuff (including warframes, guns, mods, etc.) are original Orokin technology. That's why prime stuff can only be "found" in the relics and not replicated as many times as we want. 
Anything that's non-prime is a Tenno design. Basically an imitation of the original Orokin technology. That's why primes are always better items.

Pay attention people and stop making these threads. Try to spend 5 minutes researching the stuff first.

Before someone tries to explain how I am wrong: https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Edited by Cerikus
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5 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Normal Excalibur also has the same description.

Just "Excalibur" is mentioned. Not "Excalibur Prime".

You could explain that in multiple ways, one of them being, Orokins didn't call every warframe "Prime", just they're regular names

If Excal is said to be the first, then it includes his prime & Umbra versions

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Ugh. This again.

Can't wait for when Caliban comes out for people to say "WTF how are they gonna Prime this Warframe???" and then forget that the Orokin literally created the Sentients, and its probably why a Sentient Warframe is even possible in the first place. I don't find it hard for Caliban to be a blueprint of sorts for all the next Sentient designs, with Caliban Prime being the 'Ultimate Sentient Lifeform' or whatever.

And no, Revenant is not a Sentient Warframe, nor even an Eidolon Warframe really. His base version was *corrupted* by their energy, and it's why his abilities all have the appearance of said energy but do not function anywhere near like them at all. You could make an argument for Danse Macabre, but as far as I am concerned Sentients' don't have anti-adaptation damage capabilities. It can be easily explained from lore that he always had that function because he was always meant to be an anti-Sentient tool (and that would make sense considering his lore was basically hunting Eidolons for food at night).

Revenant Prime will just be a gold, flaming vampire. As all vampires should be (if you get what I'm saying 😉).

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9 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Normal Excalibur also has the same description.

Just "Excalibur" is mentioned. Not "Excalibur Prime".

Excalibur is the first design. 
Non prime excalibur is Tenno technology.
Excalibur Prime is Orokin technology.
Excalibur Umbra is basically just a one single Excalibur Prime created by Ballas from a Dax named Umbra.

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37 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Before you two get this topic locked could you at least try to answer my questions since seems you both know stuff related to lore?

Was my clan mate right or wrong to say nidus prime would be a conflict with lore and so we wont have his primed version? (which was like 4-5 years ago)
Whatever yes or no then why? Whats the idea behind it?
Why @(XBOX)C11H22O11 said pre sacrifice it would be against lore to have nidus in prime but post sacrifice it should be ok?

Read my other replies?  I've already directly answered the OP question and then debated someone about it in here.  Pre-sacrifice Nidus could have been non-lore friendly because we didn't have clear information regarding the fact that warframes are themselves made of infestation.  He was never 100% non-lore friendly to have a prime and certainly isn't now.  

 

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

I'm still surprised people think a pair of angel wings is against the style of Warframe.

I had a full on debate with someone in a thread complaining about wings in warframe, with cited canon sources and everything.  Everything about the Tenno when it comes to the lore says they they are heavily ritualized with a massive fetish for flashy violence and combat, despite also having some rather extreme stealth capabilities.  From a canon source the reason we get charged credits to use our own foundry is because Ordis knows if he didn't charge us, we would spend all our money on means to commit flashy violence and have no money to keep the lights on in the orbiter.  We're Orokin shock troops.  Slipping into an area undetected and then going absolutely HAM in a bright pink Rhino with angel wings is absolutely lore friendly.  I got super stoked when I saw the new wing ephemera that's coming this Halloween.  I bet that guy is going to be so mad about it.  Imagine hating other people having fun.

 

36 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

I just like to watch as people destroy each other over whose headcanon is right or wrong.

I try to make sure I note where I have something with sources and where I'm speculating.  I only think I'm right if I can back it up.  I also only think someone else is right if they can back it up.  

 

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

They exist as gameplay concessions. Concessions are not statements about the lore.

See, I like and accept this, but so many people will lose their mind if you tell them their evidence for their head canon is just a gameplay concession so I try to stay away from it as an explanation.  It's also kind of fun to discuss how any stupid little aspect could technically be a thing that is lore and not just "for game purposes only."

 

13 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I can conclude that every single Warframe began as the normal ones and the Primes are enhanced after they had proven themselves to be worthy.

You can conclude that, but does the game actually say that verbatim?

 

9 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

1. PRE-sacrifice no 1 knew origins of non-prime versions of warframes while primed ones were creation of orokin or tenno?

Those are murky waters that DE has never given a direct answer to.  You can take the information provided in the thread by myself and others and draw whatever conclusion you like and then tell people with a different conclusion they are wrong lol.

 

10 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Nidus being infested themed warframe was for sure not made by orokin/tenno so thats why my clan mate said having nidus prime would have conflict with the lore?

No.  Nidus being infested has no bearing on him not being of orokin origin.  He is directly stated to be an Old War relic, meaning he is definitely, irrefutably of Orokin origin.  All warframes are infested.  Nidus is just a little more apparent.

 

12 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

3. Where primed variants are the ORIGINAL versions and non-primed warframes are just some kind of lesser copy of primed ones made by infested?

Again, no direct answer to the difference between primes and non-prime or even which came first.  They were not made by the infested faction though, they are all, primes included, made of a different strain of the technocyte virus that made the infested faction in the first place.  The infested faction are also an orokin creation, used ineffectively to combat the sentients during their initial rebellion.  The Orokin then used a different strain of the infestation to create warframes to do a better job at combating both the now problematic infested faction and the sentient invaders.  Even primes are made from Helminth strain of the infestation.

 

16 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Where in sacrifice its explained that non-prime warframes are made from helminth strain so post-sacrifice turns out he perfectly fits in into being able to have prime version since non-prime versions are made based on primed version?

The sacrifice explains the creation of warframes in general, not listing whether they were creating primes or non-primes first.  Just that the Helminth strain of the Technocyte virus was used on people to create warframes.  And it's like... The whole quest.  I'm not taking shots, I just don't understand how you missed that part lol.

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Again, no direct answer to the difference between primes and non-prime or even which came first. 

You are wrong. Sorry I won't be answering other parts of your post, because I feel like this misinformation is the only reason, why people still discuss this, even though, it is a fact, that Primes are original Orokin technology, while non-Primes are Tenno made copy.

https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access
 

WHAT IS A PRIME?
Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities and feature added polarity slots – allowing you to equip more powerful Mods and saving space in your MOD Capacity.

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The sacrifice explains the creation of warframes in general, not listing whether they were creating primes or non-primes first

Just something worth bringing up

maxresdefault.jpg

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdNzku1zrEq562DifpIqc

No I'm not saying regular came first just saying It shows a regular Excalibur so that already proves that Regular warframes were around back in the war. In case anyone, not targeted at you, was asking themselves if primes were the only ones around Orokin times

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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Lore loses to money. It's a pretty simple concept.

Lore never lost, because poeple don't pay attention, don't read in-game texts and create their own conjectures that are simply not true. 

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2 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

You are wrong. Sorry I won't be answering other parts of your post, because I feel like this misinformation is the only reason, why people still discuss this, even though, it is a fact, that Primes are original Orokin technology, while non-Primes are Tenno made copy.

https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access
 

WHAT IS A PRIME?
Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities and feature added polarity slots – allowing you to equip more powerful Mods and saving space in your MOD Capacity.

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles.

One, that is from 2014 and they have retconned a LOT in the last 7 years.

Two, other information and lore has been introduced in various parts of the game that could potentially contradict that statement made in 2014.  It has already been discussed in this thread.

Given those things, saying the waters are murky isn't really misinformation.  It's saying that it's not clear what does and doesn't apply at this point.  There's been a whole discussion regarding why certain frames like Valkyr Prime have the same abilities as the allegedly altered-through-torture non-prime version of her.  Information no longer completely meshes and gives clear answers, so no, a promo from 7 years ago doesn't clear anything up lol.

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10 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Read my other replies?  I've already directly answered the OP question and then debated someone about it in here.  Pre-sacrifice Nidus could have been non-lore friendly because we didn't have clear information regarding the fact that warframes are themselves made of infestation.  He was never 100% non-lore friendly to have a prime and certainly isn't now.  

 

I had a full on debate with someone in a thread complaining about wings in warframe, with cited canon sources and everything.  Everything about the Tenno when it comes to the lore says they they are heavily ritualized with a massive fetish for flashy violence and combat, despite also having some rather extreme stealth capabilities.  From a canon source the reason we get charged credits to use our own foundry is because Ordis knows if he didn't charge us, we would spend all our money on means to commit flashy violence and have no money to keep the lights on in the orbiter.  We're Orokin shock troops.  Slipping into an area undetected and then going absolutely HAM in a bright pink Rhino with angel wings is absolutely lore friendly.  I got super stoked when I saw the new wing ephemera that's coming this Halloween.  I bet that guy is going to be so mad about it.  Imagine hating other people having fun.

 

I try to make sure I note where I have something with sources and where I'm speculating.  I only think I'm right if I can back it up.  I also only think someone else is right if they can back it up.  

 

See, I like and accept this, but so many people will lose their mind if you tell them their evidence for their head canon is just a gameplay concession so I try to stay away from it as an explanation.  It's also kind of fun to discuss how any stupid little aspect could technically be a thing that is lore and not just "for game purposes only."

 

You can conclude that, but does the game actually say that verbatim?

 

Those are murky waters that DE has never given a direct answer to.  You can take the information provided in the thread by myself and others and draw whatever conclusion you like and then tell people with a different conclusion they are wrong lol.

 

No.  Nidus being infested has no bearing on him not being of orokin origin.  He is directly stated to be an Old War relic, meaning he is definitely, irrefutably of Orokin origin.  All warframes are infested.  Nidus is just a little more apparent.

 

Again, no direct answer to the difference between primes and non-prime or even which came first.  They were not made by the infested faction though, they are all, primes included, made of a different strain of the technocyte virus that made the infested faction in the first place.  The infested faction are also an orokin creation, used ineffectively to combat the sentients during their initial rebellion.  The Orokin then used a different strain of the infestation to create warframes to do a better job at combating both the now problematic infested faction and the sentient invaders.  Even primes are made from Helminth strain of the infestation.

 

The sacrifice explains the creation of warframes in general, not listing whether they were creating primes or non-primes first.  Just that the Helminth strain of the Technocyte virus was used on people to create warframes.  And it's like... The whole quest.  I'm not taking shots, I just don't understand how you missed that part lol.

Thx now thanks to you i have general idea of why my clan mate said that and how it works
Even if you are wrong you are the only 1 to care to actually answer to my questions so i take you are most competent person here 

Bless you

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2 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Im not into warframe lore and i know next to nothing about it and from that fact my question is born

When i was new to warframe idk if i even was mr10 i had a guy in clan talking with other guy about prime warframes
And i asked would it happen that every single warframe will ever get primed version?
And he answered that some wont like for example nidus and i asked why? And he said because it would be not lore wise correct

And well now we have nidus prime and i wonder was he wrong about that lore part?
What he was talking about?
Or in fact nidus prime according to lore should not exist?
 

To DE, lore is whatever they want it to be. They don't care.

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