Nidus Prime vs Lore

[Sinekanter]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb GrayArchon:

We already know the frames are Infested. That's accepted fact. What's not accepted is the idea that you can't "re-Infest" a thing that's already been Infested. Being diseased doesn't confer immunity; quite rather the opposite. There's no reason to think that the reason the warframes are immune is because they're Infested.

I recently watched a documentary about an intelligent fungus, that can choose to merge with other strains that carry information/modificators it deems useful (like it was able to merge with a strain that was more resilient in certain pH-environments and reject one that was easier damaged by its environment).

It kind of reminded me of Nidus; what could make him special might be his ability to merge with certain other strains, willingly. That he is able to 'disable' his own immunity so to speak.

(And yes, it is obviously only head canon, but a) I just found it interesting and wanted to share and b) unless we get a direct answer by the devs everything is head canon, no matter how much evidence there is).

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

The Orokin don't seem to be all that concerned about the Infestation's spread. Ballas calls them "horrors past" (emphasis added), implying that there is no longer any danger. When discussing Earth, Ballas talks about wanting to reclaim it from the Infestation but doesn't voice a concern that the Infestation might spread to other places, such as Lua. So making sure things are immune to the Infestation doesn't seem to have been a focus at that point in the Old War.

We already know the frames are Infested. That's accepted fact. What's not accepted is the idea that you can't "re-Infest" a thing that's already been Infested. Being diseased doesn't confer immunity; quite rather the opposite. There's no reason to think that the reason the warframes are immune is because they're Infested.

"Sea change" is a phrase with an accepted definition, that being a transformation. The phrase itself comes from The Tempest by Shakespeare:

Full fathom five thy father lies,
Of his bones are coral made:
Those are pearls that were his eyes,
Nothing of him that doth fade,
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.

Read that text about how a drowned sailor's body is transformed over time into something totally different, by the forces of nature. His bones became coral, his eyes became pearls. That sounds a lot like what happens when a person is remade by the Infestation into a new entity.

Nidus wasn't sent out, he was "cast adrift". That implies Nidus wasn't travelling through his own volition or the power of another. "Adrift" means to move with the waves, the tides, the wind (or, in space-travel metaphor, gravitational forces and orbital mechanics). If Nidus was sent out to learn (a purposeful objective), Ballas wouldn't have said "cast adrift" (which very much gives the impression of aimlessness and passivity). Once again, your interpretation of Ballas' actual words runs counter to the simplest explanation of those words.

When Ballas mentions "horrors past" it is a long way down the line since it is in his covert conversation with Hunhow. This is in connection to Umbra, so quite deep into the war. At this point the tenno are already controlling frames and Ballas have even had time to research potential non-tenno control of frames aswell given his very specific tranference bolt for umbra that seems intended to let Ballas himself control it.

But it is because they are infested, since even the infestation spells that out for us. It already sees us as infested, that is the whole plot regarding it. If we were immune for other reasons they wouldnt see us as infested, they'd try to assimilate us and then figure out it wouldnt work. And after that it wouldnt refer to us as its kin either since we wouldnt be immune because we are like it.

And Ballas is philosophical, so it doesnt need to mean physical transformation as such. It is a transformation to learn to use something far differently aswell, like using a frame as a normal warmachine or using a frame as something that channels the pure infestation within. Which likely takes alot from a tenno because they are afterall human and need to learn to manifest the infestation. Which would also explain his use of words like cast adrift. Like I said, it could also be replaced with phrases such as "baptism by fire" and surely others aswell. 

It is also funny that you went from "but he might have been stuck to a drone" or "sent into an orbit" and then going to nitpicking on "cast adrift". If he was cast adrift without a plan as a half-assembled frame with no immunity to the infestation yet, he would have never been able to return. He would at that point either be a lump of flesh and steel somewhere or an infested puppet fuelling their ranks. I would somewhat buy into it if this was about a proto frame, since they function on their own due to sentience so could potentially come back, but still it would make little sense due to the immunity.

Also a few questions.

1. How would they turn Nidus Prime immune after getting infested? There is no known cure, there is only immunity tied to frames. And how would they be sure that Nidus wouldnt spread the regular infestation even if he somehow got turned immune after being infested? And how would they turn him immune after infestation without destroying the wild strain of the infestation in the process (potentially destroying Nidus aswell)?

2. How would it be Nidus Prime if it gains its attributes differently from a potential Proto Nidus? Wouldnt the proto already have the attributes the Orokin were seeking in the first place before deciding to Prime it?

3. How would they be able to stash away or mass produce a Nidus Prime created that way?

[Myscho]

Lore in Warframe ? Where ? Dont be ridiculous

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If we were immune for other reasons they wouldnt see us as infested, they'd try to assimilate us and then figure out it wouldnt work.

The hive mind wouldn't get the chance to find out that we are immune because it never 'takes' the frame. The warframe goes in, kills Infested, and leaves. The Technocyte doesn't get the chance to assimilate the warframe because it doesn't fall in battle.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is also funny that you went from "but he might have been stuck to a drone" or "sent into an orbit" and then going to nitpicking on "cast adrift".

None of what I said was contradictory. "Cast adrift" means it's not operating under its own power, like a life raft in the middle of the ocean. It's carried by forces like the winds and tide, things you can't control. I was postulating a drone as a stretch of this concept, because if you program a drone with a very basic set of instructions ("go out there and then come back"), you still don't have control over what happens to the drone's payload in the middle. I agree that it's on the outer limits of what I would consider being "cast adrift".

The question of "how does Nidus come back to Earth after being partially Infested" is one I don't really have a complete answer to, hence my weird suggestion of the drone. But I don't think it's the most relevant part. Nidus came back. Ballas says so. Yes, we don't know how. We know Nidus didn't come back on his own power, or else "cast adrift" doesn't make sense. But he came back. I'm ready to move on from this point, because I don't have an answer as to how. We don't get all the answers sometimes.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. How would they turn Nidus Prime immune after getting infested? There is no known cure, there is only immunity tied to frames.

Well we don't know what makes the warframe immune, so we can't answer this question in detail. If it's some technological element, then I don't see why it can't be added to the warframe after the fact. The entire issue is speculative, which is what I've been saying this whole time. Besides, maybe the Orokin did have a cure that has now been lost.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how would they be sure that Nidus wouldnt spread the regular infestation even if he somehow got turned immune after being infested?

Maybe they didn't care?

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how would they turn him immune after infestation without destroying the wild strain of the infestation in the process (potentially destroying Nidus aswell)?

It's very possible to turn a wild strain into a less wild strain. It happens in laboratories all the time, since wild stuff doesn't do too well in labs. You need to change them to fit your needs. We have the tools to do so on a rudimentary level today (altering substrate specificity, building in antibiotic resistance, selecting for rapid growth, etc) so I wholeheartedly believe the Orokin could alter whatever wild strain of Infestation Nidus came back with.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

2. How would it be Nidus Prime if it gains its attributes differently from a potential Proto Nidus? Wouldnt the proto already have the attributes the Orokin were seeking in the first place before deciding to Prime it?

Again, this is assuming a specific timeline of warframe creation that is not explicitly laid out. Here's how I imagine it works: Ballas makes a half-formed frame, shoots it out into space, and it comes back Infested. Then Ballas finishes the warframe and makes it complete. This is either the normal Nidus frame or the Prime Nidus frame, depending on which you think comes first. Then those attributes are copied and used to make other Nidus frames. You only need to go through the process once. We know that the blueprints of warframes contain all the characteristics of the originals.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

3. How would they be able to stash away or mass produce a Nidus Prime created that way?

Answered in the preceding paragraph.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

What's the issue here? "What came first, the Infestation, or Nidus?" Is that it?

How about, Nidus Prime is the original source of the Infestation "as we know it now" bit like, the Progenitor Virus being the original source for T-Virus and G-Virus and the T-Veronica Virus and, all that jazz. Would that break lore?

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

The hive mind wouldn't get the chance to find out that we are immune because it never 'takes' the frame. The warframe goes in, kills Infested, and leaves. The Technocyte doesn't get the chance to assimilate the warframe because it doesn't fall in battle.

None of what I said was contradictory. "Cast adrift" means it's not operating under its own power, like a life raft in the middle of the ocean. It's carried by forces like the winds and tide, things you can't control. I was postulating a drone as a stretch of this concept, because if you program a drone with a very basic set of instructions ("go out there and then come back"), you still don't have control over what happens to the drone's payload in the middle. I agree that it's on the outer limits of what I would consider being "cast adrift".

The question of "how does Nidus come back to Earth after being partially Infested" is one I don't really have a complete answer to, hence my weird suggestion of the drone. But I don't think it's the most relevant part. Nidus came back. Ballas says so. Yes, we don't know how. We know Nidus didn't come back on his own power, or else "cast adrift" doesn't make sense. But he came back. I'm ready to move on from this point, because I don't have an answer as to how. We don't get all the answers sometimes.

Well we don't know what makes the warframe immune, so we can't answer this question in detail. If it's some technological element, then I don't see why it can't be added to the warframe after the fact. The entire issue is speculative, which is what I've been saying this whole time. Besides, maybe the Orokin did have a cure that has now been lost.

Maybe they didn't care?

It's very possible to turn a wild strain into a less wild strain. It happens in laboratories all the time, since wild stuff doesn't do too well in labs. You need to change them to fit your needs. We have the tools to do so on a rudimentary level today (altering substrate specificity, building in antibiotic resistance, selecting for rapid growth, etc) so I wholeheartedly believe the Orokin could alter whatever wild strain of Infestation Nidus came back with.

Again, this is assuming a specific timeline of warframe creation that is not explicitly laid out. Here's how I imagine it works: Ballas makes a half-formed frame, shoots it out into space, and it comes back Infested. Then Ballas finishes the warframe and makes it complete. This is either the normal Nidus frame or the Prime Nidus frame, depending on which you think comes first. Then those attributes are copied and used to make other Nidus frames. You only need to go through the process once. We know that the blueprints of warframes contain all the characteristics of the originals.

Answered in the preceding paragraph.

What? Now you are really stretching it here. You are adding gameplay mechanics and trivial content to the convo... I'll counter with a low health and low armor frame getting 1HK by a toxic ancient. Heck my Saryn Prime with tons of health and armor accidentally got killed on terrorem yesterday when heading to the extraction in Steel Path. So we can get caught.

With a drone there is a high chance it will never get back like Ballas planned in your theory, since there is a chance the drone even gets infested and brings the frame to the hivemind instead. Tons of risks with it. Plus, few infested just drift around in space, so the thing would have to impact with an infested surface somewhere, which would also mean stranded and not returning. If it was caught in space while a drift by a space faring infested, the same infested would likely be able to take it off course so it never returns in that case either. 

But if Nidus was sent out and came back it would be an infested WF that came back, which would mean it would have to be subjugated in order for them to make it immune. Which also makes this theory of your very vague since the way to subjugate the infestation tends to mean destroying it. And you say they didnt care if Nidus infested other things even though they actively sent out Primes to exterminate the infested (see Saryn Prime)? That makes zero sense in every possible way.

Sure you can turn a wild strain into something less wild, but how often have you or anyone else had to deal with a biotechnological entity controlled from the other side of the solar system by a supercomputer hivemind? The infestation isnt a virus, it is a technological entity with partly biological makeup. It is also highly volatile and aggressive. There is also no way it would willingly come back once it is infested. 

Also another thing. If your theory would be true, that Nidus was assimilated and infested by the infestation, how come we've seen zero Nidus infested enemies? Just because Ballas somehow would make that one mysteriously returning non-aggressive Nidus immune, the infestation would still have all the data on it in order to produce their own version at any rate they please. The moment it interact with something and learns the whole infestation learns and can reproduce it at will. So where are all the Nidus infested at?

edit: More and more speaks for a flawed theory and that the "cast adrift" was more a hint at a live fire excercise/learning experience for the new car smell Nidus.