Infested liches when?

[Megalomaniakaal]

On 2021-09-29 at 5:41 PM, (PSN)GingyGreen said:

But really it's their visual variety that is most lacking

That's kinda par for the course when it comes to corpus tho.

[Bl00D-H0UND]

i hope here are chargers or jugernut liches so i can use it as a defender like a guard dog

[---Merchant---]

On 2021-09-27 at 7:33 AM, Azimbee said:

Nemesis Strain has a certain ring to it. Nemesis as in "Nemesis System" they called it way back, and "Strain" to reference there are different strains of infested. Nemesis Strain implies it's a sub species of infested that adapts and grows for a particular adversary. Of all the Liches, this concept works extremely well for infested because in biology adaptive immunity is pretty overpowered. Shambling masses of technocyte constantly reference biology with the naming of their weapons, usually in reference to diseases or body parts.

There are many diseases, parasites, and plagues that adapt to other plagues. For example, there are viruses that parasitize other viruses, requiring their target to already infect a host before it can hijack the infection. Evolutionary adversarial niches happen all the time too with things like bacteriophages preying upon bacteria and the bacteria evolving to try to deal with it. They help eachother grow stronger.

Infestation doesn't really seem to see the warframes as mortal enemies, but lost kin that have simply lost their way or splintered off from the hivemind. They're surprisingly amicable, just in their own, oozing, ravenous, way. Individuality sorta exists in Infestation, see Fass and Vome, but the warframes themselves are technically rogue individual infestation if you really think about it. Surely the infestation collectively sees a merit to rogue units, mutations and deviations from the norm. Letting a single infested unit develop themselves stronger by pursuing a single target is to the benefit of the whole, as that's information the Infestation can use to better itself.

In that regard, I imagine Infested Liches would see the target warframe as a friendly rival, a much more low key use of the word "Nemesis". Even if it dies, the hivemind can just subsume it back and make use of the learned knowledge and adaptations. Hence, Nemesis Strain. This can go deeper too, as the infested unit is going after you, copying some of your abilities, and developing itself further. In trying to overcome you, their strain can potentially be a new variant that gets used again by Infested later. They're not just your Nemesis, and they're not just a collective strain. Each Nemesis Strain is a potential new strain of infestation, and they're YOUR Nemesis Strain. Don't mind me, just thinking aloud.

They can not call it nemesis system because that'd be instant lawsuit from Monolith Productions. They copyrighted and patented (warner bros)what is very similar to the lych system. It is basically 1:1.
>You kill orc in the Monolith's game
>Orc turns in to Nemesis Orc
>Has unique voice lines, randomly generated name, quirk etc
>Drops item after you finally kill it and is upgraded if you fail to kill him
sounds familiar?

Here I assume DE did not buy license for this, if they did they can ofcourse call it Nemesis.


Anyway, infested "lyches" is the only kind i'm looking forward to because infested weapons were always the most fun ones, and we could get something really comfy for example mutagen that upgrades our cats to infested cats, keeping the normal preset cards but getting better stats.

[TARINunit9]

Just now, ---Merchant--- said:

They can not call it nemesis system because that'd be instant lawsuit from Monolith Productions. They copyrighted what is very similar to the lych system. It is basically 1:1.
>You kill orc in the Monolith's game
>Orc turns in to Nemesis Orc
>Has unique voice lines, randomly generated name, quirk etc
>Drops item after you finally kill it and is upgraded if you fail to kill him
sounds familiar?

Here I assume DE did not buy license for this, if they did they can ofcourse call it Nemesis.


Anyway, infested "lyches" is the only kind i'm looking forward to because infested weapons were always the most fun ones, and we could get something really comfy for example mutagen that upgrades our cats to infested cats, keeping the normal preset cards but getting better stats.

In general this would fall under patents, not copyright, though "software code" is listed under "copyrights" in the US Patent & Trademark Office website so it's probably a mix of both. Whatever, let's get to the meat of the issue:

Patenting game mechanics is extremely wonky, and enforcing it has less to do with being actually at fault and more to do with the classic "drown the enemy in lawsuits so they go broke even if they win" tactic. Most companies don't bother, because it's pretty much a 50/50 that they would win anyway. For examples, Splinter Cell has a patent on the "last known position" of the player character (and even has a trademark on the words "last known position"), but Metal Gear Solid 5 uses the exact same mechanic with the exact same trademarked name without any legal problems at all. Sega patented the objective arrow in Crazy Taxi, but Bioshock used it with no legal reprisal.

Actually, that "last known position" one would almost certainly rule in MGS5's favor because there's a simplicity limit on what you can and can't trademark. Which is relevant to the idea of a "Nemesis system" because "Nemesis" is in the public domain

[---Merchant---]

49 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In general this would fall under patents, not copyright, though "software code" is listed under "copyrights" in the US Patent & Trademark Office website so it's probably a mix of both. Whatever, let's get to the meat of the issue:

Patenting game mechanics is extremely wonky, and enforcing it has less to do with being actually at fault and more to do with the classic "drown the enemy in lawsuits so they go broke even if they win" tactic. Most companies don't bother, because it's pretty much a 50/50 that they would win anyway. For examples, Splinter Cell has a patent on the "last known position" of the player character (and even has a trademark on the words "last known position"), but Metal Gear Solid 5 uses the exact same mechanic with the exact same trademarked name without any legal problems at all. Sega patented the objective arrow in Crazy Taxi, but Bioshock used it with no legal reprisal.

Actually, that "last known position" one would almost certainly rule in MGS5's favor because there's a simplicity limit on what you can and can't trademark. Which is relevant to the idea of a "Nemesis system" because "Nemesis" is in the public domain

I agree with most of what you claim here, but also see how it would be really easy to make case for Warner Bros to do that legendary "drowning" as you say.
Lawyer would claim that it is:
1. infringing on the same market  (gaming market, software market, rpg market)
2. is substantially similar to layman (I doubt most layman could tell these 2 systems apart) ofcourse some aspects would be considered unique or original by expert. (for example the cypher solving part with murmur grind)
3. is part of something that earns money (as you can imagine warframe is game, and it is game that earns money even while being f2p)
Lawyer would also just need to meet very minimal burden to start the case without having to prove any of the above.

It rarely ever matters who is right when it comes to "justice system" You do something really bad? Well jury found you not guilty so that is no problem.
You did nothing bad? Enjoy lifetime in prison. So that 50/50 you mention is easy to believe.

There is similar system in assassin creed, so I ofcourse realize that people can use similar systems without being in legal trouble, but arguing would be about substantially similar aspects. For example orc you capture in mordor can turn in to your friend and help to defend you/fortress, that sounds veeery similar to how in warframe lych you capture can defend your fortress(ship) or you in mission.

They would find each little thing like this and argue the case.  And even if DE will 100% win(we use time machine to know), they get just part of legal fees and no one will be real winner. So I think that is just would not be worth it to be tempting the devil here.


But I do not know if they have trademark in canada and stuff like that, lych(queenpin) system was also created before the patent was granted that can affect a lot too,
i will be honest and say that i did not research it beyond hearing that they were sucesfull at obtaining the patent and trademark. I'm not lawyer or judge either, just like to watch youtube lawyers for example Lawfull masses with leonard french.  And there i see people suing each other for years for nothing, based on baseless claims and it lasts years and years. 

And because I do not know enough of the specifics here I'll gladly grant any claims that DE would surely win such lawsuit, i just question if it would be worth it to begin with.

[MqToasty]

29 minutes ago, ---Merchant--- said:

Lawyer would claim that it is:
1. infringing on the same market  (gaming market, software market, rpg market)
2. is substantially similar to layman (I doubt most layman could tell these 2 systems apart) ofcourse some aspects would be considered unique or original by expert. (for example the cypher solving part with murmur grind)
3. is part of something that earns money (as you can imagine warframe is game, and it is game that earns money even while being f2p)
Lawyer would also just need to meet very minimal burden to start the case without having to prove any of the above.

I think you might be confounding Patent and Trademark.  WB has a Patent on the system, which is unrelated to the Trademark.  In a Patent infringement case, only the claims matter, and depending on the wording of the Patent, you usually have to find a violation of all the claims in order to have a case.  The market (1) and similarity (2) are only used in Trademark / Trade dress cases, and do not apply to Patents.

[_Anise_]

On 2021-09-27 at 4:41 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

IMO, Plains of Eidolon was good, Fortuna was pushing it and Deimos was just... another one.

I joined when both Plains and fortuna were things, honestly I couldn't get enough, after doing fotuna quest I was looking for where the 3rd openworld area was, when deimos came though it just felt really grindy and tiny compared to fortuna

[---Merchant---]

3 hours ago, MqToasty said:

I think you might be confounding Patent and Trademark.  WB has a Patent on the system, which is unrelated to the Trademark.  In a Patent infringement case, only the claims matter, and depending on the wording of the Patent, you usually have to find a violation of all the claims in order to have a case.  The market (1) and similarity (2) are only used in Trademark / Trade dress cases, and do not apply to Patents.

That is because I read that they have both tradermark  and patent.
That can be ofcourse wrong, it is just what i read online. 

[MqToasty]

1 hour ago, ---Merchant--- said:

That is because I read that they have both tradermark  and patent.
That can be ofcourse wrong, it is just what i read online. 

Ah, I see.  If WB also has a Trademark on "Nemesis" and DE renames Liches to Nemesis, then yes it would go down as you described.  Although, I have a hard time believing "Nemesis" has never been used in another videogame.  Why did the USPTO accept their registration?  😅

[RedEyedRaven]

On 2021-09-27 at 6:33 AM, Slayer-. said:

Thanks for the video link, wow 2 years ago I can't remember last week, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak confirmed.

2 year-old statements or not, some ideas are on a backburner on DE and can come up any time in the future unless they really scrap them.

TNW even refers to the Duviri Paradox, which has been on hold for about the same time now.

 

As for weapons that could be carried by infested "Liches"... pretty much all the forgotten weapons from the Dojo-Infested lab.

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

32 minutes ago, RedEyedRaven said:

2 year-old statements or not, some ideas are on a backburner on DE and can come up any time in the future unless they really scrap them.

TNW even refers to the Duviri Paradox, which has been on hold for about the same time now.

 

As for weapons that could be carried by infested "Liches"... pretty much all the forgotten weapons from the Dojo-Infested lab.

Well they did say that they announced Duviri Paradox too early. And yeah there's plenty of stuff that got pushed to the backburner or was forgotten about.(do hope they haven't forgotten about dojo NPC's which they announced about a year ago)

All infested weapons should be considered for the infested liches.(given that they make sense) Even make new ones as the Kuva Liches and Sisters have gotten.

[RedEyedRaven]

Just now, (PSN)reddragonhrcro said:

All infested weapons should be considered for the infested liches.(given that they make sense) Even make new ones as the Kuva Liches and Sisters have gotten.

 

Of course. I just mentioned the Infested-lab weapons specifically because it feels like eons since I've seen somebody use a Phage or Synapse outside of MR-fodder for example.

 

[Slayer-.]

2 hours ago, RedEyedRaven said:

2 year-old statements or not, some ideas are on a backburner on DE and can come up any time in the future unless they really scrap them.

TNW even refers to the Duviri Paradox, which has been on hold for about the same time now.

 

As for weapons that could be carried by infested "Liches"... pretty much all the forgotten weapons from the Dojo-Infested lab.

Haha, I had to go read it again, too long ago for my mind to remember. 

[(NSW)sickomodefries]

tbh i would like an infested lich lotus probably saying something like a new strain of infested is nearing or something 

[nslay]

Or maybe when you play a crossfire Infested vs Grineer/Corpus and a Kuva Lich or Sister of Parvos is selected, the Kuva Lich or Sister of Parvos succumbs to the infestation and become an infested lich with infested versions of Kuva/Tenet weapons (with some dedicated infested weapons of course).

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

On 2021-09-26 at 8:44 PM, Slayer-. said:

Unless they can carry a gun then NOPE no Infested Lich's

Remember the disciples from the Nightwave Event (I believe it was the second one), have them holding the weapons. Or one thought I had was maybe it's a disciple juggernaut centaur (upper half of the center attached to a juggernaut body). That could be interesting. 

Maybe have the melee weapons (herudo, lesion, maybe mios) be purchased on Diemos (perhaps this currency could be the result of sparing the disciple instead of killing them). 

[Slayer-.]

Quote

 

Just to remind myself, lol this is old.

Spoiler

On 2021-09-27 at 2:30 PM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

https://www.twitch.tv/de_steve/clip/DistinctProductiveArugulaChefFrank

Steve already confirmed Infested liches are planned back before Kuva liches released.

On 2021-09-27 at 2:33 PM, Slayer-. said:

Thanks for the video link, wow 2 years ago I can't remember last week, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak confirmed.

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)RAG is NAROK said:

Remember the disciples from the Nightwave Event (I believe it was the second one), have them holding the weapons. Or one thought I had was maybe it's a disciple juggernaut centaur (upper half of the center attached to a juggernaut body). That could be interesting. 

Maybe have the melee weapons (herudo, lesion, maybe mios) be purchased on Diemos (perhaps this currency could be the result of sparing the disciple instead of killing them). 

Do you remember these ones,

Spoiler

they could suddenly reanimate and take over the dead bodies within them and use their limbs to shoot guns at us.   🤣

[Shatter_The_Sun]

I would love to see a different use for them. Instead of having weapons, they could have different "Strains" similar to what someone else said. Defeating them gives you the option of letting them infect one of you equipped items with their strain, providing a bonus effect along with a negative and positive stat change. This can only be applied to the items CURRNETLY equipped. Your Warframe/Melee/Secondary/Primary.

This would incentivize players to have farm for multiple of the same warframe as well as give them uses once fed to the helminth. This also allows for all sorts of wacky combinations.

Edit: You could take strains, combine up to a certain amount of them, trade them, ect.

Kinda wanna make a list now...

Impact Strain
Warframe- Increase ability strength but decrease ability efficiency. Hitting an enemy with an ability applies IMPACT.
Weapons- Add IMPACT to the weapon. Increase the base damage of the weapon but decrease the firing speed.
Companion- Attacks cause a radial wave, knocking down and inflicting IMPACT.

Heat Strain
Warframe- Increase ability strength but decrease energy pool. Hitting an enemy with an ability applies FIRE.
Weapons- Add HEAT to the weapon. Increase the reload speed but decrease the magazine size.
Companion- Attacks cause a shockwave of fire, inflicting FIRE.

Cold Strain
Warframe- Increase health but decrease move speed. Getting hit increases your armor stacking up to 5 times.
Weapons- Add COLD to the weapon. Increase magazine size but decrease fire rate.
Companion- Will taunt enemies and go invulnerable if lethal damage is taken. Enemies attacking are inflicted with COLD.

Electricity Strain 
Warframe- Increase cast speed but decrease ability strength. Hitting an enemy with an ability has a chance to stun targets around them and apply ELECTRIC.
Weapons- Add ELECTRIC to the weapon. Increase fire rate but decrease status change.
Companion- Move speed and dodge chance increased. Assisting in a kill has a small chance to cause a lightning chain, stunning and inflicting ELECTRIC.

Toxin Strain
Warframe- Increase efficiency but decrease duration. Hitting enemies with an ability inflicts them with spores that burst into a gas cloud and apply GAS.
Weapons- Add TOXIN to the weapon. Increase Status chance but decrease reload speed.
Companion- Inflicts TOXIC to all nearby enemies. When taking lethal damage, go invulnerable, exploding, dealing damage and turning into a spore on your warframe, draining health from you until it has enough to revive.

Magnetic Strain
Warframe- Increase duration but decrease efficiency. Enemies hit with an ability have a small chance to gain a very small magnitize bubble on them. Only X amount can be active at one time.
Weapons- Add MAGNETIC to the weapon. Increase accuracy but decrease zoom.
Companion- Attacking has a chance to cause a radial bubble that drags in enemies and applies MAGNETIC.

Radiation Strain
Warframe- Increase range but add a slight cooldown to abilities. Hitting enemies with ability inflicts them with RADIATION.
Weapons- Add RADIATION to the weapon. Increase damage but can damage the player.
Companion- Shield and Health regeneration speed doubled. Becomes invulnerable when below 50% health/shields. Damage dealt to it is transferred to your warframe but will not kill you if you reach 1 HP.