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DE when are you going to nerf Wisp?


Leqesai
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Alright look. I love Wisp but it is really obvious she is completely overpowered. Specifically her motes. They are very low energy cost and last indefinitely once placed (until replaced). This, coupled with the fact that they give incredible buffs to health+health regen, speed and crowd control are simply ridiculous. Wisp completely negates any other healing frame.

So I hate to call for nerfs, but honestly DE when are you going to bring her down to a reasonable level. The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration. I don't think the efficacy of her motes should be touched but there should be a bit more cost associated with such powerful buffs.

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17 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration

I love how DE make maintaining Sevagoth's Gloom very simple while letting it run without energy when no enemies around.

Then you came and say "let them have finite duration". People like pressing keys, right? There are many ways to nerf and you have chosen the most clunkiest.

ps. it will conflict a little with Will-o-Wisp.

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45 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Alright look. I love Wisp but it is really obvious she is completely overpowered. Specifically her motes. They are very low energy cost and last indefinitely once placed (until replaced). This, coupled with the fact that they give incredible buffs to health+health regen, speed and crowd control are simply ridiculous. Wisp completely negates any other healing frame.

So I hate to call for nerfs, but honestly DE when are you going to bring her down to a reasonable level. The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration. I don't think the efficacy of her motes should be touched but there should be a bit more cost associated with such powerful buffs.

I dont see any issues with Wisp's kit, not even her 1st ability, it is very useful for helping newer players in some missions. Only change i wish her 1st had was it not affecting specters in general, especially Wukong Twins.

After you get things like Saryn's Spore and the Kuva Bramma (Again) nerfed i might consider your idea.

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Alright look. I love Wisp but it is really obvious she is completely overpowered. Specifically her motes. They are very low energy cost and last indefinitely once placed (until replaced). This, coupled with the fact that they give incredible buffs to health+health regen, speed and crowd control are simply ridiculous. Wisp completely negates any other healing frame.

So I hate to call for nerfs, but honestly DE when are you going to bring her down to a reasonable level. The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration. I don't think the efficacy of her motes should be touched but there should be a bit more cost associated with such powerful buffs.

You're playing the wrong game. 

You're aware more frames than wisp are op? And that no one even needs healing from warframe when we have operators.

If you don't like wisp then don't use her.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're playing the wrong game. 

You're aware more frames than wisp are op? And that no one even needs healing from warframe when we have operators.

If you don't like wisp then don't use her.

Nah, Wisp is the only frame I've heard of. 😇

I love you, man. 

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

It's stationary, so in most missions you have to recast anyway. Your change wouldn't really change much in Wisp gameplay. 

That's my point. It wouldn't be significant change. Just a re-tuning of the cost vs payoff. Motes offer significantly more payoff than most other abilities. There are some really good abilities on other frames, don't get me wrong; but no other frame buffs as efficiently as Wisp.

 

29 minutes ago, quxier said:

ps. it will conflict a little with Will-o-Wisp.

This is a good point. Perhaps instead of giving it a duration the motes should have 2x the energy cost. Something to balance how strong they are compared to other similar-cost abilities.

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Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Good players overshadow bad players as well, what's your solution for that?

A "normal mode" if you will, in which the skill discrepancy between various players do not affect the overall efficiency to a large extent. This can be achieved by enemies being overly squishy and certain safeguards like say, "no self damage" or a "shield gate" or a "Prime Sure Footed" can be found in the mode.

As for a "hard mode" or even "harder mode", well, there the efficiency and even success rates of missions can start hinging more or skillful play, where such coddling mechanics need not be applied.

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43 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is a good point. Perhaps instead of giving it a duration the motes should have 2x the energy cost. Something to balance how strong they are compared to other similar-cost abilities.

2x energy cost, well, whatever. "I"m rich".

3 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Why not nerf saryn?:

The cheat frame....

Why not nerf Yareli... oh, wait...

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Nah, Wisp is the only frame I've heard of. 😇

I love you, man. 

That's my point. It wouldn't be significant change. Just a re-tuning of the cost vs payoff. Motes offer significantly more payoff than most other abilities. There are some really good abilities on other frames, don't get me wrong; but no other frame buffs as efficiently as Wisp.

 

This is a good point. Perhaps instead of giving it a duration the motes should have 2x the energy cost. Something to balance how strong they are compared to other similar-cost abilities.

Ok 2x the energy cost is the equivalent of literally nothing, just bring a Harrow or energy pads. If it’s too much that can be easily fixed by slapping streamline.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Alright look. I love Wisp but it is really obvious she is completely overpowered. Specifically her motes. They are very low energy cost and last indefinitely once placed (until replaced). This, coupled with the fact that they give incredible buffs to health+health regen, speed and crowd control are simply ridiculous. Wisp completely negates any other healing frame.

So I hate to call for nerfs, but honestly DE when are you going to bring her down to a reasonable level. The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration. I don't think the efficacy of her motes should be touched but there should be a bit more cost associated with such powerful buffs.

I can kind of agree with this but nobody has nerfed saryn yet and most of my arbitration survival and Defense camps were created by a wisp.

 

But in all realism? Yes she is… (I really hate to admit it) a bit overpowered. But nerf the things that are even more overpowered first, then consider this.

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Wisp has pretty weak Healing. fine if you don't need to survive much but it's one of the weakest Healing Abilities in the game.
what Wisp has to offer is the Shock Mote, and the Health max boost. that boost is definitely pretty good but i mean, Wisp has to have something useful.

what makes Wisp useful is the Health max boost while also getting the Elec Status CC and Fire Rate/Attack Speed at the same time. aside from the Health max boost Wisp has fairly weak buffs but the plus side if they are pretty easy to keep up consistently, to offset their weakness.

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2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Wisp has pretty weak Healing. fine if you don't need to survive much but it's one of the weakest Healing Abilities in the game.
what Wisp has to offer is the Shock Mote, and the Health max boost. that boost is definitely pretty good but i mean, Wisp has to have something useful.

what makes Wisp useful is the Health max boost while also getting the Elec Status CC and Fire Rate/Attack Speed at the same time. aside from the Health max boost Wisp has fairly weak buffs but the plus side if they are pretty easy to keep up consistently, to offset their weakness.

The only thing about this is the shock motes and fire rate interferes with my specific builds. I Main Harrow for most occasions so when I need crit chance and try to get 200% bonus crit, the shock motes will keep them stunned so I can’t absorb any damage, so I kind of wish there was a button you could press to cleanse yourself of all buffs. 
Fire rate is a negative on a weapon like the Ignis wraith (which I use a lot) because it doesn’t increase the amount of damage, and consumes ammo much faster. It however, applies status affects faster but I prefer lower fire rate.

Other than that I like the heal, attack speed and health increase.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ravenmere said:

This game is over 8 years old.  Power Creep happens.  The answer is not to nerf Wisp, but to buff underpowered frames.  Wisp isn't broken, she just works.  

The true wisdom of a brilliant person.

 

 

EVERYBODY knows this is true, but compared to most of the other frames wisp can be considered overpowered. 
(Talked about this in several threads)

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55 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Ok 2x the energy cost is the equivalent of literally nothing, just bring a Harrow or energy pads. If it’s too much that can be easily fixed by slapping streamline.

 

 

I agree. My suggestion may not be the ideal fix but the primary issue is that Wisp is just too darn good!

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Fire rate is a negative on a weapon like the Ignis wraith (which I use a lot) because it doesn’t increase the amount of damage, and consumes ammo much faster. It however, applies status affects faster but I prefer lower fire rate.

Fire Rate absolutely makes Continuous Weapons deal Damage faster. it works exactly the same way as it does on any other Gun in the game. 

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Me coming into this thread thinking someone's trying to take away Wisp's zero-energy permainvisibility: oh thank god they're just talking about her health mote.

Wisp isn't powerful, and she only negates other healing frames if you spend the entire game pretty much standing still. And if you're doing that, you're probably doing stuff that's hilariously more OP than plonking down a Healing Stream Totem. Wisp's true strength is that she doesn't have any one single true strength, she's a jack of all trades—a little tanky, decent CC, weak but steady heals, okay DPS, nice mobility, best in class stealth (okay she has one true strength). There's no need to nerf her because she doesn't outclass any other frame in anything.

Even in healing, if Wisp is the reason your team survives then it's because your team sucks and your Wisp player was flat out amazing, not because Wisp is an inherently good healer. She puts out a small amount of constant heals and a nice health buff, and you only get those if a) she manages to stay ahead of you or b) you wait for her to catch up. In a gofaster game like Warframe, that is a massive liability.

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21 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Me coming into this thread thinking someone's trying to take away Wisp's zero-energy permainvisibility: oh thank god they're just talking about her health mote.

Wisp isn't powerful, and she only negates other healing frames if you spend the entire game pretty much standing still. And if you're doing that, you're probably doing stuff that's hilariously more OP than plonking down a Healing Stream Totem. Wisp's true strength is that she doesn't have any one single true strength, she's a jack of all trades—a little tanky, decent CC, weak but steady heals, okay DPS, nice mobility, best in class stealth (okay she has one true strength). There's no need to nerf her because she doesn't outclass any other frame in anything.

Even in healing, if Wisp is the reason your team survives then it's because your team sucks and your Wisp player was flat out amazing, not because Wisp is an inherently good healer. She puts out a small amount of constant heals and a nice health buff, and you only get those if a) she manages to stay ahead of you or b) you wait for her to catch up. In a gofaster game like Warframe, that is a massive liability.

Just to clarify.

It isn't that Wisp is a better healer by virtue of her healing. She is a better healer because she simutaneously gives healing+cc+haste. The triple-threat combo she has for a paltry 75 energy is very powerful when using her in scenarios where she does not need to move her motes much. 

Also, it is not a matter of "if wisp is the reason your team survives". It is more a matter of Wisp is able to heal more efficiently than the other healing frames (nidus requires mutation for a time-limited regen AOE, trinity's heal costs 100 base energy (or 25 if you use well of life which is also duration based), oberon's heal has a persistent drain for less regen. Protea is a solid healer with her health orbs. Same with Nekros but none of the frames I listed give additional health (and a significant amount, at that) on top of the health regen. Wisp not only heals but she increases the EHP of frames significantly.

Someone mentioned buffing the other frames to Wisp's level but I'd rather nerf Wisp. The game is already super easy and I think some of the powerful frames/weapons need brought down a bit. Not a ton. Just enough to shorten the disparity between other options. Kuva Bramma's nerf was perfect. The weapon is still top tier but just a little bit less so. Same with Kuva Nukor. The thing is still top tier but not wildly overpowered.

 

Also.

Wisp health mote 30 health per second for 25 energy with duration only when leaving the AOE, free to refresh until the mote is removed
Oberon 40 health per second 25 for 25 energy and 2 energy per second, per target (disables energy pads while active)
Nidus 20 health per second for 3 mutation and a duration of 40s while standing directly in the AOE
Trinity 100 health per second for 25 energy with a 12 duration and 8m radius (damaging the target heals significantly)

Wisp might not have the highest health per second but she is definitely the cheapest to maintain of all health regen options (did I miss any?)
It isn't that I think Wisps heal numbers are unbalanced. I think her upkeep of this is unbalanced. She is able to do a lot for very, very little compared to the other frames that do something similar (and with more general efficacy).

Edited by Leqesai
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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

Wisp has pretty weak Healing. fine if you don't need to survive much but it's one of the weakest Healing Abilities in the game.

Can't say I agree with this. Sure, Mote doesn't have strong healing at base, but it's also one of the easiest abilities to really crank up to max, without feeling that much of a downside on energy consumption and other stuff. On my Mote build on Wisp, I regularly have 120+ HP/s, and that's with one range mod (Stretch) to also give Shock motes some decent range. If you're really going for pure heal/speed build, I believe you can hit something like 147(?) HP/s and almost 100% speed (I don't remember the exact number from the top of my head), and you can even surpass that if your team has multiple Growing Power auras.

And the reason why it's pretty easy for Wisp specifically is because Motes have infinite duration, so you don't have to recast them much, and they keep the highest buff you had, until you let it wear off. So once you hit the max number, you don't even have to use all the additional multipliers anymore (like Empower, Energy Conversion, Growing Power, etc) as long as you refresh it on time.

So I don't think her healing is weak by any means, especially for something that stays 24/7, while also providing other buffs.

Having said that, by no means I think Wisp should get nerfed. at this point there's plenty of other broken stuff and I don't think Wisp is that high on the list in there anyways.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

Can't say I agree with this.
Sure, Mote doesn't have strong healing at base, but it's also one of the easiest abilities to really crank up to max, without feeling that much of a downside on energy consumption and other stuff. On my Mote build on Wisp, I regularly have 120+ HP/s, and that's with one range mod (Stretch) to also give Shock motes some decent range. If you're really going for pure heal/speed build, I believe you can hit something like 147(?) HP/s and almost 100% speed (I don't remember the exact number from the top of my head), and you can even surpass that if your team has multiple Growing Power auras.

and by investing that much into it, you can make Wisp offer something worth having and worth Equipping the Warframe for, at a sacrifice for doing that and only that.
because of the Modding convenience you can make it pretty alright. i'd still generally take something else first in an optimized Squad.

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