DE when are you going to nerf Wisp?

[Tesseract7777]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

To play devils advocate, there are many levels and situations where flat hp and regen is more then enough. 

In terms of actual meta though, I don't think anyone is recruiting for "healing" with Wisp in mind. 

I doubt she's even on the radar. Because she doesn't provide damage reduction. I'm not saying her healing is useless or that healing without damage reduction is useless, just that it will never really be meta without it. 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Cause healing without damage reduction is super op in Warframe right? 

I'm not sure I understand your point.

All frames have access to damage reduction... Are you saying that Wisp is less useful because her healing is just healing and no further damage reduction? If so then this is a fair point, and would be more significant if there wasn't already a major amount of damage reduction available to players by virtue of adaptation+arcanes. I suppose it is a little off-base to presume people are using defensive mods in their loadouts but I'm guessing a lot of people do. I did not think about this from the perspective of EHP related to damage reduction though. But to be fair Wisp also boosts the max health considerably which one might argue is more useful than damage reduction depending on the situation/loadout.

[Vortex]

8 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not sure I understand your point.

All frames have access to damage reduction... Are you saying that Wisp is less useful because her healing is just healing and no further damage reduction?

Hmm, yes? The healing mote is really usefull on low level content, bunt when you bring it to steelpath is the same as no healing. 

Is stationary, and got a low duration if you don't build for duration, and if you do you will lack in something else. She is fina as it is.

[Leqesai]

16 minutes ago, Vortex said:

Hmm, yes? The healing mote is really usefull on low level content, bunt when you bring it to steelpath is the same as no healing. 

Is stationary, and got a low duration if you don't build for duration, and if you do you will lack in something else. She is fina as it is.

If you're running with only the healing mote then yeah I see where you're coming from, but you also have haste and shock mote which are considerable buffs. The shock mote is incredible CC considering its maintenance cost. 

But that's really my point. It isn't that "Oh well in X content this is invalid" it is more "For what you get, the cost is disproportionately low"

I've never called for nerfing the stats of the ability (buff). The premise of my argument is related to whether or not the extremely low cost (75 energy) justifies the significant benefit to the player. Wisp stands above all others with regard to the utility of her motes. There is a reason you see players use her constantly (I get that other elements of her kit are also useful but the motes are the outlier, IMO). 

Basically, she is too good at buffing multiple things with very little in the way of counter balance. No other frame is able to buff+heal+cc-buff the way that Wisp can with a comparabley low cost associated. 

And again, I am not calling for motes to be nerfed statistically. I'm more suggesting that some cost be associated with their use that justifies the benefit. Maybe bump the energy cost to 50 per use. Maybe put a duration on the deployed mote itself. Maybe limit the total number of motes to 3 instead of 6. I'm not sure the most appropriate solution but it is kind of funny to me that many players don't see the motes as an issue.

Possibly because many players haven't been around long enough to see the meta shift. Once Wisp was introduced the buff/healing meta shifted considerably (furthered by an incredible amount of damage reduction and defensive options available to players nowadays). 

[Tesseract7777]

40 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not sure I understand your point.

All frames have access to damage reduction... Are you saying that Wisp is less useful because her healing is just healing and no further damage reduction? If so then this is a fair point, and would be more significant if there wasn't already a major amount of damage reduction available to players by virtue of adaptation+arcanes. I suppose it is a little off-base to presume people are using defensive mods in their loadouts but I'm guessing a lot of people do. I did not think about this from the perspective of EHP related to damage reduction though. But to be fair Wisp also boosts the max health considerably which one might argue is more useful than damage reduction depending on the situation/loadout.

All frames through mods and operators have certain ways of gaining damage reduction, but we are talking about Warframe healing abilities here, independent of someone's personal loadout, which the way you are talking about, sounds more like a PUB or solo loadout. 

In meta groups a lot of people are going to ask for a dedicated healer so they can fully min/max their part of the setup for the meta run, without needing to worry about as many defensive mods, and they always have shield gating for an emergency as well. And I don't think any of those groups are asking for a Wisp, they want Harrow for the Eidolon phase, or idk if it's still meta these days but Bless Trin. Maybe even an Oberon that can provide some armor. 

By that matter I could say Protective Dash needs a nerf because it invalidates every healing ability by healing people by 60% of their max health and making them completely invincible for five seconds and you can do it over and over and over. And if timed right your operator can spam it forever. 

[Leqesai]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

By that matter I could say Protective Dash needs a nerf because it invalidates every healing ability by healing people by 60% of their max health and making them completely invincible for five seconds and you can do it over and over and over. 

Good point. This should be nerfed too. 

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Good point. This should be nerfed too. 

I wouldn't mind them nerfing my beloved Vazarin school some, as long as they replace/buff the four crappy abilities that drain energy and are certainly not worth the cost. 

NGL from a balance perspective Protective Dash is a little ridiculous. I've gone whole "protect the operative sorties", where I just decided to be the dedicated protector and its bar never stopped being gray the whole game. I would make it provide 90% damage reduction and status removal + immunity instead of just straight making whoever it hits invincible. 

[Lutesque]

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

 

All frames have access to damage reduction... Are you saying that Wisp is less useful because her healing is just healing and no further damage reduction?

He may not be saying that... But I Am.... DR is pretty much mandatory at this point.... Atleast thats how I feel after getting Violently Destroyed Multiple Times on Deimos...

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

But to be fair Wisp also boosts the max health considerably which one might argue is more useful than damage reduction depending on the situation/loadout.

It would be nice if it gave you Inaros levels of Max HP because that would make Arcane Grace practical for every Frame.... But since all you get is a Couple hundred HP it's kinda forgetable

5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

if you're running with only the healing mote then yeah I see where you're coming from, but you also have haste and shock mote which are considerable buffs. The shock mote is incredible CC considering its maintenance cost. 

You'd have to dedicate atleast one slot to either increasing its Range or Duration for this to work out that way I think.

5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

 

But that's really my point. It isn't that "Oh well in X content this is invalid" it is more "For what you get, the cost is disproportionately low"

It's costly enough.... 

5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

There is a reason you see players use her constantly (I get that other elements of her kit are also useful but the motes are the outlier, IMO)

Her Motes are fine.... For them to be the Outlier you would have to build them that way... And doing that may cause Issues with Breach Surge.... Which I found to be more Valuable than the motes...

5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I wouldn't mind them nerfing my beloved Vazarin school some, as long as they replace/buff the four crappy abilities that drain energy and are certainly not worth the cost

Didn't they Nerf Vazarin already ? 🤔

 

[IMP_102]

On 2021-09-30 at 12:40 AM, quxier said:

She isn't immortal (e.g. AoE attack still could harm her) but enemies won't look for her. That means, with careful playing, she is immortal.

However just being immortal doesn't mean that you can beat a game. IMP seems to forget that.

Splinting hair here really, yes stuff can hit her still, but shield gating is a thing. Have to be unlucky for stuff to go really south. Have brief respite, play "floor is lava" and if you take a hit, cast breach surge, your shields are back, enemies are in CC. 

I don't know, this whole thread seems to be coming from someone who has a very static play style.

[ZenHare]

21 hours ago, Vortex said:

Hmm, yes? The healing mote is really usefull on low level content, bunt when you bring it to steelpath is the same as no healing. 

Is stationary, and got a low duration if you don't build for duration, and if you do you will lack in something else. She is fina as it is.

Okay, this is a flat out idiotic lie. Wisp, a high strength (300%+) build, is very, very good in Steel Path up to the point where you start running into things in longer running missions (defense, survival, etc.) that can one-shot you through your health regeneration and Adaptation. She has a lower effective health than other warframes that have higher armor and/or damage resistance abilities combined with Adaptation, but Wisp is immortal to anything that can't one shot her.   

[T-Shark69]

  

On 2021-09-28 at 4:52 AM, Leqesai said:

trinity's heal costs 100 base energy (or 25 if you use well of life which is also duration based), oberon's heal has a persistent drain for less regen.

Don't you think it's a bit missleading to factor in energy cost for Trinity and Oberon when Energy Vampire and Hunter Adrenaline exist? Also Oberon's healing is 33% higher than Wisps at base, so I don't understand where "less regen" comes from. These two frames also provide DR instead of extra HP which ends up being more valuable since you end up healing a higher percentage of EHP compared to Wisp. Oberon also has Phoenix Renewal which basically means every frame has double EHP. Trinity resets shield gate for every one too; also gives infinite Energy, Oberon status cleanses, gives Radiadtion damage and has armor strip too. So if Wisps comes out on top its because of her Haste and Shock motes being more useful for a given task, not really smth universal applicable.

>Protea is a solid healer with her health orbs.

Protea gives you a continious Arcane Aegis which basically means you're immortal outside of enemy toxin damage. Her Dispensay is just the cherry on top. 

Id mention Nezha too since Safeguard and Reaping Chackram are a superior support to Wisps Health Mote Id wager. Hildryn too with Haven and Voracious Metastasis being outright broken on her.

[Kaiune]

On 2021-09-27 at 5:16 PM, Leqesai said:

So I hate to call for nerfs,

Then why make a whole post about it?

1. Its a PVE game. There is no "unfair" advantage 

2. Its a power fantasy game OP stuff is kinda the point though in order to gate the power behind progression the whole game needs to be re tooled 

3. There are several frames and abilities that are more op than Wisp. 

4. All frames that have an OP skill generally have a counter in the game may it be an enemy or game mode they just suck at 

5. Something will always fill in the vacuum when you go on a nerf train

6. Buffs are ALWAYS better either buff enemies or buff other frames guns etc. Nerfs should be extremely rare as they only serve to upset a community, buffs even to enemies will make people happier.  

7. Don't like the frame dont play it, dont like playing with someone playing it dont play public or leave the mission when you see some one playing a frame you dont like playing with.

 

[Soul-scar]

Frame = pretty good but not my main = Nerf

Frame = OP but my main = It's fine

Frame = utter bonk but not my main = It's fine

Frame = dumpster fire = It's fine

Frame = super fun but I get offended by others enjoying theirself = Nerf

Nidus and wisp are examples of well designed frames that work. Saryn has pretty much been the same for years even after the changes but you can do the same with Mirage to an extent.

OP is normally the subjective reasoning of someone who has never used OR cannot use said frame, maybe not Sayrn. I mean Trinity is amazing yet few use her because she sucks....work out that statement. 

[selig_fay]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:50 PM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

To play devils advocate, there are many levels and situations where flat hp and regen is more then enough.

You don't play well as the devil's advocate. Wisp really doesn't benefit from hp, because why if the opponents won't hit you anyway? On the other hand, her allies and objects benefit from this. Take your friend on a wukong and make a damage buff instead of a beam and get a massive automatic disentigration turret that will pass the game for you.

Wisp breaks with its speed. Moreover, it really increases the action speed of specters, giving them fewer opportunities to die of stupidity. By the way, the warframe currently does not have an acceleration buff, which affects the speed of all actions for warframes. I mean, the shooting speed is good, but there's also the reload speed or the speed of how fast you get back on your feet.

[Suntar]

Imagine asking for nerfs in a PVE game.

[selig_fay]

5 hours ago, Suntar said:

Imagine asking for nerfs in a PVE game.

Imagine that the PVE game also needs balancing to be a game, otherwise, you won't get any new content, since you've already passed it by default.

[..E.luna..Ai..]

I playin mostly Titania.. she can heal mates with only fixed 4hp/s for 20seconds, can provide a bit protection buffs for at least nearby allies and that's it..
Wisp heals like what.. 500hp/s? Buffs health with extra several thousand, boosts move speed, melee speed and weapon fire rate for ridiculous amounts for about ever buff spread/~40s buff time. 
I don't even talk about that fact that wisp have nuke surge that easily deal about 40mil damage.
And she is invisible.. 

I still will play titania, but it's not fair.. just a bit.
Lets put together frames like excal and wisp and see what players prefer to play and why..
Some frames comparing to wisp just eeegh. Easily can say most of them.
 

[(PSN)max141064]

I love how the whole shtick of some people is to ruin other people's fun and enjoyment of the game. 

Don't ask to power up other frames that lack something, no.

Ask them to nerf frames that are fine. 

 

This is why i'm glad DE doesn't care jack-sh*t about what people think they want in the forum. lol

[Fallen77]

Le 05/10/2021 à 18:46, Kaiune a dit :

Then why make a whole post about it?

1. Its a PVE game. There is no "unfair" advantage 

2. Its a power fantasy game OP stuff is kinda the point though in order to gate the power behind progression the whole game needs to be re tooled 

3. There are several frames and abilities that are more op than Wisp. 

4. All frames that have an OP skill generally have a counter in the game may it be an enemy or game mode they just suck at 

5. Something will always fill in the vacuum when you go on a nerf train

6. Buffs are ALWAYS better either buff enemies or buff other frames guns etc. Nerfs should be extremely rare as they only serve to upset a community, buffs even to enemies will make people happier.  

7. Don't like the frame dont play it, dont like playing with someone playing it dont play public or leave the mission when you see some one playing a frame you dont like playing with.

 

So... I'm gonna preface this by specifying that I don't agree at all with the call to nerf wisp, it's ridiculous. Wisp is not an overly dominant frame, she's just a decent all around pick.

But then, no you are very wrong, nerfs are so important to the health of a game, even pve power fantasy games.

The point of nerfs in this kind of game is to power down an overly dominant aspect of the game, so as to give other tools a place to shine, to allow variety.

Buffs to ennemies... oh my is that nonsensical... first, do you not even realise that buffing ennemies or nerfing everything we have is exactly the same thing ? It is only a matter of semantic, the result is the exact same.

But not only is it still a nerf, it's a badly designed nerf. When melee, or launcher, or the stug or any specific aspect of the game is overshadowing the rest of the tools, applying a blanket buff to the ennemies does exactly nothing to the power balance.

And don't get me the "well buff all other weapons (or whatever else is being talked about) instead of nerfing the one op weapon", because that's a ridiculously complicated process to only get the same result as bringing one tool back down to the same level as everything else, and can't even be done with things like warframes due to the high number of variables in those.

No, nerfs are critical to making a good game, there is no possible counter to this. People just need to grow up and stop crying when their favorite obviously op toy gets nudged back into place.

So what ? It's power fantasy so the point is to get op right ? Ok, let's introduce a gun with infinite range, infinite ammo, no reload time, that instantly one shots every single ennemy on the map at every press of the trigger, guarantees triple loot and tp all the loot to you when you shoot. What ? Are you not fine with this ? How dare you ask for a nerf ? If you don't like it, just don't use it. And if you don't like playing alongside it, just leave.

Have I pushed the ridicule far enough for you to understand how nonsensical it is to speak against the concept of nerfs as a whole ?

[(PSN)max141064]

Things get nerfed when they are unbalanced and overperforming, not because "that perfectly balanced frame is stronger than this frame that underperforms! nerf that frame now!" 

it's either a person that doesn't know how balancing works in any videogames whatsoever.

or it's just a person that hates Wisp for some weird and obscure reason giving points that don't stand on their feets for literally 2 seconds. 

OP talked about how she puts other support frames in the shadows and how her HP regen is overshodowing any other frame with a similar ability. 

 

uhu...didin't notice that Wisp that heals a small amount of HP and gives regen puts Trinity in the shadows when Trinity just needs to click one button and fill up HP AND shields giving a damage resistance in it too! ...weird. 

It's unfair that she can make a clone that gets the enemy attention, it's not like Wukong does that 50 times better than her...

oh but she can teleport in place of the clone so she can travel too far away in comparison to other frames! ....like Nova? or Loki? or Titania? or Wukong? or Zephyr that can do that or moving extremely fast? 

but she can make a nova that makes a too much damage! it's not like Saryn, Banshee, Nezha, Ember, Mesa, Equinox, Mag, Lavos, Nova or Volt can do that or ca similar AoE in that regard, can do! 

B-but! she can summon a solar rail that melts every- no, she can't. 

 

But yeah, let's nerf wisp because a specific other frame is underpowered compared to her that is just balanced, not even op. just balanced.

 

[Lutesque]

Jesus Christ.... I thought this thread Died Already 😭!!!?

[PatrioticEagle]

On 2021-09-27 at 6:16 PM, Leqesai said:

Alright look. I love Wisp but it is really obvious she is completely overpowered. Specifically her motes. They are very low energy cost and last indefinitely once placed (until replaced). This, coupled with the fact that they give incredible buffs to health+health regen, speed and crowd control are simply ridiculous. Wisp completely negates any other healing frame.

So I hate to call for nerfs, but honestly DE when are you going to bring her down to a reasonable level. The only real change that is needed is to make her deployable motes have a duration attached to them instead of being infinite duration. I don't think the efficacy of her motes should be touched but there should be a bit more cost associated with such powerful buffs.

seriously why do people like you enjoy ruining it for everyone? everytime someone says "this should be nerfed" what does DE do instead? they make it worse for everyone, then people complain why it happened like this.

[RobouteRob]

I agree with op and will prove it with my quick scientific research

Lemme jump in some random matchmake,

Capture: 1.Wukongisp 2.Wukongisp 3.Wukongisp 4.me

Defense: 1.Wukongisp 2.Wukongisp 3.Wukongisp 4.me

Spy: 1.Wukongisp 2.Wukongisp 3.Wukongisp 4.me

Sortie: 1.Wukongisp 2.Wukongisp 3.Wukongisp 4.me

Aya farm in poe: 1.Wukongisp 2.Wukongisp 3.Chad Teleport Loki 4.me

We still have wukong-flu epidemic all over the nodes and you pick wisp to nerf first? Wow.

[Vhyriel]

В 07.12.2021 в 11:44, ..E.luna..Ai.. сказал:

I playin mostly Titania.. she can heal mates with only fixed 4hp/s for 20seconds, can provide a bit protection buffs for at least nearby allies and that's it..
Wisp heals like what.. 500hp/s? Buffs health with extra several thousand, boosts move speed, melee speed and weapon fire rate for ridiculous amounts for about ever buff spread/~40s buff time. 
I don't even talk about that fact that wisp have nuke surge that easily deal about 40mil damage.
And she is invisible.. 

I still will play titania, but it's not fair.. just a bit.
Lets put together frames like excal and wisp and see what players prefer to play and why..
Some frames comparing to wisp just eeegh. Easily can say most of them.
 

Eh, Titania has razorwing. It's practically the same as invisibility but ten times faster and doesn't require you to constantly jump, you can stand still and land your headshots or snipe those weakpoints while still being untouchable.

Status immunity and enemies reduced damage/accuracy/speed are no joke either.

She's not a support frame though, more like a DPS with a slight shift towards support - cause she's so safe it would be selfish to not share at least some safety with her squadmades (also likely designed around the fact that her kit shouldn't compete much with Oberon's so they could still be played in the same group). And if, with all her damage and speed and survivalability and flying!, she could contribute even more to the squad - well, now that would be completely broken. Imagine Mesa and Wisp merged together and flying at Volt's speed. :o

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Wisp isn't overpowered she is balanced why bring this thread back.

Or well... Create it in the first place