New Primed Damage Mods for Pistols and Rifle (Balancing for ranged and Melee)

[GothTwink]

Okay, so my husband and I have been wondering this for a long while. We were looking at the Primed mods. Do we know if we will get a Primed Hornet Strike for pistols and Primed Serration for Rifles? We feel as if this may level the playing field for melee and ranged play since there are practically 3 Primed mods for melee damage (Primed Pressure Point and the 2 Sacrificial Mods) I lumped the Sacrificial mods together since they boost each other and raise both damage and crit. I for one would like to also see all base elementals primed, not just some of them.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

Since we have the steel path arcanes (360% damage) and condition overload for guns, primed base damage mods would be pretty much useless (maybe a 1% increase in overall damage).

Primed element mods may slowly continue to creep into the game. Unfortunately, I find modding capacity limits their use to lvl40 weapons. 

[Uhkretor]

... I don't think you're supposed to shove all Primed Mods into a weapon like its Thrax Toxin into the boil anyway.

[taiiat]

Primed Pressure Point isn't exactly what i'd call a major upgrade. and Sacrificial Pressure is literally a downgrade in almost all builds.

plus you already got a bunch of big number Arcanes and big number Galvalized Mods for your Guns if you somehow couldn't Kill Enemies fine with them before.

Edited September 30, 2021 by taiiat

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, GothTwink said:

I for one would like to also see all base elementals primed, not just some of them.

Clearly this is by design.  But, with the release of a primed cold mod for shotguns, I think we'll see 2nd primed elemental mods for the other weapon classes too, in the not-too-distant future.

Just for entertainment, here's what I'd guess:

Primary (non SG): heat 

Secondary: toxin 

Melee: electricity

 

 

 

 

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I don't think you're supposed to shove all Primed Mods into a weapon like its Thrax Toxin into the boil anyway.

Oy, I didn't grind out a Kuva Karak to rank 40 just to be forbidden from maximum shinytown in my mod screen D:<

[GothTwink]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

Primed Pressure Point isn't exactly what i'd call a major upgrade. and Sacrificial Pressure is literally a downgrade in almost all builds.

You are supposed to use Sacrificial Pressure with Sacrificial steel after all, it makes all builds way better since they boost each other, but not ALL builds are supposed to need those two anyways. Besides, what about New War stuff? That would make those mods a lot more useful.

[GothTwink]

6 hours ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

Since we have the steel path arcanes (360% damage) and condition overload for guns, primed base damage mods would be pretty much useless (maybe a 1% increase in overall damage).

Yes, but the Steel Path arcanes only help out so much. I find myself continuing to struggle a bit even with those arcanes.

[GothTwink]

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Oy, I didn't grind out a Kuva Karak to rank 40 just to be forbidden from maximum shinytown in my mod screen D:<

I completely agree with 'ya.

[GothTwink]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Clearly this is by design.  But, with the release of a primed cold mod for shotguns, I think we'll see 2nd primed elemental mods for the other weapon classes too, in the not-too-distant future.

Just for entertainment, here's what I'd guess:

Primary (non SG): heat 

Secondary: toxin 

Melee: electricity

That isn't a half bad guess, honestly.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, GothTwink said:

You are supposed to use Sacrificial Pressure with Sacrificial steel after all, it makes all builds way better since they boost each other, but not ALL builds are supposed to need those two anyways. Besides, what about New War stuff? That would make those mods a lot more useful.

like i said, Sacrificial Pressure is a downgrade in almost all cases. yes, if you're using 2/2.
the extra Crit Chance you get doesn't offset the Damage you lose. it's worth it for anti-Sentients sure, and that is one of the exceptions. 

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, GothTwink said:

We feel as if this may level the playing field for melee and ranged play since there are practically 3 Primed mods for melee damage (Primed Pressure Point and the 2 Sacrificial Mods)

Don't forget Condition Overload 😁 !!!

 

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

18 hours ago, GothTwink said:

Yes, but the Steel Path arcanes only help out so much. I find myself continuing to struggle a bit even with those arcanes.

Your builds might need some work. "Primed serration" isn't going to change anything. 

I'm not entirely sure you understand the math. Base damage mods (e.g. hornet strike, serration) provide very little damage increase now because of those arcanes and galvanized condition overload mods.

Max Arcane 360%, max serration 165%, so combined, 525%. So the actual damage increase from serration is about 46% (3.60×1.458=5.25), which is less than an elemental mod. Even if it were "primed serration" at 200%, that'd bring the damage increase from 46% for serration, to 55% for primed serration, still much less than an elemental mod.

If you factor in condition overload/galvanized mods, the damage increase from using serration is even less. For example, if you can easily apply 3 different status effects, i.e. condition overload/galvanized bonus of 80% per status effects, so 240% damage, combined with arcane bonus, you'll basically be running around with 600% damage. If you add serration to the mix, that brings it up to 765%, which is only an increase of 28%. 

It's all about diminishing returns. If you're having issues in Steel path, primed serration isn't going to change anything. 

[GothTwink]

On 2021-10-01 at 4:32 AM, Lutesque said:

Don't forget Condition Overload 😁 !!!

 

I guess I'm one of the few that don't care for that one.

[GothTwink]

On 2021-10-01 at 1:28 AM, taiiat said:

like i said, Sacrificial Pressure is a downgrade in almost all cases. yes, if you're using 2/2.
the extra Crit Chance you get doesn't offset the Damage you lose. it's worth it for anti-Sentients sure, and that is one of the exceptions. 

You're supposed to use them both, as I had said before. And you do not LOSE damage, you GAIN, since they BOOST each other. You didn't seem to listen. Not only that, but not ALL melee weapons are supposed to have them...

[GothTwink]

On 2021-10-01 at 7:04 PM, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

Your builds might need some work. "Primed serration" isn't going to change anything. 

I'm not entirely sure you understand the math. Base damage mods (e.g. hornet strike, serration) provide very little damage increase now because of those arcanes and galvanized condition overload mods.

Max Arcane 360%, max serration 165%, so combined, 525%. So the actual damage increase from serration is about 46% (3.60×1.458=5.25), which is less than an elemental mod. Even if it were "primed serration" at 200%, that'd bring the damage increase from 46% for serration, to 55% for primed serration, still much less than an elemental mod.

If you factor in condition overload/galvanized mods, the damage increase from using serration is even less. For example, if you can easily apply 3 different status effects, i.e. condition overload/galvanized bonus of 80% per status effects, so 240% damage, combined with arcane bonus, you'll basically be running around with 600% damage. If you add serration to the mix, that brings it up to 765%, which is only an increase of 28%. 

It's all about diminishing returns. If you're having issues in Steel path, primed serration isn't going to change anything. 

I already knew the math so I didn't need you to tell me, but thank you for telling those that didn't. WHAT IF you don't use the Condition Overload? I don't really have a use for it since not everything can be built status. Not everyone uses those either. What if you go mainly solo? Furthermore, I did not only mention "Primed Serration."

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, GothTwink said:

You're supposed to use them both, as I had said before. And you do not LOSE damage, you GAIN, since they BOOST each other. You didn't seem to listen. Not only that, but not ALL melee weapons are supposed to have them...

you lose Damage because you have to pick Sacrificial Pressure or Pressure Point.
and unless you're facing Sentients, there is not a single Melee Weapon in the game that gains more average Damage from the slight Crit Chance boost and Base Damage reduction.

idunno how else someone can try to explain to you, that unless you're attacking a Sentient it's a Damage downgrade.

 

looking at what this Thread was about again, my point was that Pressure Point isn't that big a deal as Primed Pressure Point is not a big Damage increase over vanilla and Sacrificial is weaker than Primed.
which is just a way of saying just because the Mod says Primed on it, doesn't necessarily mean it's massively better or something. 

6 hours ago, GothTwink said:

I already knew the math so I didn't need you to tell me, but thank you for telling those that didn't. WHAT IF you don't use the Condition Overload? I don't really have a use for it since not everything can be built status. Not everyone uses those either. What if you go mainly solo? Furthermore, I did not only mention "Primed Serration."

their point remains either way, as we can and generally should carry more than one Weapon, leaving us with always having the option of applying some Status Effects. or Killing Enemies, which i figure we all probably do quite a bit of, so that after the first couple Minutes of a Mission your Gun is significantly more powerful than as you Spawned(from both having major increases in Base Damage and Multi-Shot). 
these sorts of things do fulfill your desire for more Damage, after all. if you choose not to use them it's your Gameplay, nobody is stopping you.

[Lutesque]

52 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

idunno how else someone can try to explain to you, that unless you're attacking a Sentient it's a Damage downgrade

The best way to explain would be to give an example of how much Stronger Sacrificial Steel would actually need to be for it to beat Primed Pressure Point....

I'm guessing the point you are trying to make is that the Crit Chance you get from that mod isn't putting you into the next break point (or the next tier) similar to that chat we had about the difference between 90% Multishot and 110% Multishot.... For most weapons those to values give the exact same result.... Exactly One additional Projectile....

It would be the same story with Melee.... The difference between 80% Crit Chance and 110% Crit Chance is basically non existent.... Since 110% isn't enough to reliably put you into the Next Tier then it's better to go with 80% Crit Chance but more Damage...

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

The best way to explain would be to give an example of how much Stronger Sacrificial Steel would actually need to be for it to beat Primed Pressure Point....

I'm guessing the point you are trying to make is that the Crit Chance you get from that mod isn't putting you into the next break point (or the next tier) similar to that chat we had about the difference between 90% Multishot and 110% Multishot.... For most weapons those to values give the exact same result.... Exactly One additional Projectile....

It would be the same story with Melee.... The difference between 80% Crit Chance and 110% Crit Chance is basically non existent.... Since 110% isn't enough to reliably put you into the Next Tier then it's better to go with 80% Crit Chance but more Damage...

the Arithmetic should be pretty obvious

the highest Melee Crit Chance in the game is 40%.
on that Weapon, the extra Crit Chance you get over just Sacrificial Steel is an extra 0.55. so, an extra 22% Crit Chance. on top of the 88% Crit Chance you will have with 1/2.

since that Weapon has a 2.5x Crit Multiplier(4.625x Modded), i guess i'll use that. 
(1.28 * 3.625) + 1 == 5.53125x average Damage
(1.5 * 3.625) + 1 == 6.4375x average Damage

 

now we account for the Base Damage loss...
Primed Pressure Points' effective Damage increase over 2/2 Sacrificial Pressure)
2.375 / 2.65 == 0.89622641509433962264150943396226x average Damage

(((1.5 * 3.625) + 1) * 0.89622641509433962264150943396226) == 5.769457547169811320754716981132x average Damage
not bad, Fragor Prime manages to get slightly more average Damage.

 

now, let's pick not the literal best case scenario Weapon in the game and see how everything else fares. for expediency i'll skip showing my work this time.

let's go wiiiiith.... Stropha. 30% / 2.4x
4.3024x vs 4.825
4.3242924528301886792452830188679
i am truly shocked that it still manages to be 2% higher average Damage.

let's go with Pangolin Prime, at 26% / 2.2x it's quite representative of most Melee Weapons while still being quite above average.
3.55424x vs 3.99325
3.5788561320754716981132075471698
well, it looks like as long as you're using Melee Weapons with high, above average Crit Stats, it tends to maintain a sliver of a lead in average Damage.
as long as all you count is the average over a hundred or a thousand hits, then thereygo. just don't count in the per hit Damage.

[Lutesque]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the Arithmetic should be pretty obvious

the highest Melee Crit Chance in the game is 40%.
on that Weapon, the extra Crit Chance you get over just Sacrificial Steel is an extra 0.55. so, an extra 22% Crit Chance. on top of the 88% Crit Chance you will have with 1/2.

since that Weapon has a 2.5x Crit Multiplier(4.625x Modded), i guess i'll use that. 
(1.28 * 3.625) + 1 == 5.53125x average Damage
(1.5 * 3.625) + 1 == 6.4375x average Damage

 

now we account for the Base Damage loss...
Primed Pressure Points' effective Damage increase over 2/2 Sacrificial Pressure)
2.375 / 2.65 == 0.89622641509433962264150943396226x average Damage

(((1.5 * 3.625) + 1) * 0.89622641509433962264150943396226) == 5.769457547169811320754716981132x average Damage
not bad, Fragor Prime manages to get slightly more average Damage.

 

now, let's pick not the literal best case scenario Weapon in the game and see how everything else fares. for expediency i'll skip showing my work this time.

let's go wiiiiith.... Stropha. 30% / 2.4x
4.3024x vs 4.825
4.3242924528301886792452830188679
i am truly shocked that it still manages to be 2% higher average Damage.

let's go with Pangolin Prime, at 26% / 2.2x it's quite representative of most Melee Weapons while still being quite above average.
3.55424x vs 3.99325
3.5788561320754716981132075471698
well, it looks like as long as you're using Melee Weapons with high, above average Crit Stats, it tends to maintain a sliver of a lead in average Damage.
as long as all you count is the average over a hundred or a thousand hits, then thereygo. just don't count in the per hit Damage.

Right... That's totally what was thinking 😁.... Sort of....

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

On 2021-11-07 at 1:52 PM, GothTwink said:

I already knew the math so I didn't need you to tell me, but thank you for telling those that didn't. WHAT IF you don't use the Condition Overload? I don't really have a use for it since not everything can be built status. Not everyone uses those either. What if you go mainly solo? Furthermore, I did not only mention "Primed Serration."

If you know that the math shows using primed serration/hornet strike results in less damage compared with other mods, why do you want those mods? It'd just be an endo/credit cost for no reason. 

If you want to use off-meta weapons with a low status chance, you can still use those conditional mods (condition overload, galvanized savvy, etc), you'll just have to get creative with how you apply status effects to the enemies.

The Steel Path arcanes are what you need if you want more base damage on your guns (if you haven't already got them). If you want even more base damage, then you'll want the aforementioned "gundition overload" mods (you may have to get creative applying status effects if you want to use low status weapons). As the math shows, adding another base damage mod e.g. primed serration/hornet strike, is just a wasted slot.

Edit: apologies, just realised I'm probably going around in circles. If you're having issues killing things even with the SP arcanes, you might want to link your builds to get some feedback. Primed serration/hornet strike won't change anything. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by (PSN)iuvenilis