How many years has it been since bugged reactant spawns was first made public knowledge?

[JohnMorte]

This bug is still in the game after years. It happens often enough that it's a damn slog and annoyance. Relic opening missions are already 50% more tedious than normal missions, why is bugged spawn rates still a thing?

Capture mission turns into an exterminate mission, kill 20 enemies and maybe 3 of them drop reactant. The rest of the map grows dead silent and nothing spawns again. Survival missions not even spawning 10 reactant drops even through functional genocides. Interceptions that bizarrely seem to have around half the enemy spawn rate of normal, standard interceptions in the first place.

This feels almost intentional. Is it?

[Numerikuu]

Most of the time these issues stem from the players nuking the map/rushing to extraction before the spawns get a chance to breathe, let alone get the chance to turn corrupted in order for reactant to drop.

[trst]

It's intentional when players speedrun the missions to the point that Corrupted enemies rarely spawn. Even more so when they continue to do it after experiencing said issue.

And even then you only see such occurrences in the first or second rotation of endless missions and said Capture to Exterminate runs.

[DarkSkysz]

48 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

kill 20 enemies and maybe 3 of them drop reactant

Here is the problem. Wait for them to get corrupted... I never saw 20 enemies getting corrupted from one fissure, so I am sure you are just killing normal enemies.

 

Sadly you are playing the game wrong. Is not a bug.

[JohnMorte]

25 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Most of the time these issues stem from the players nuking the map/rushing to extraction before the spawns get a chance to breathe, let alone get the chance to turn corrupted in order for reactant to drop.

 

21 minutes ago, trst said:

It's intentional when players speedrun the missions to the point that Corrupted enemies rarely spawn. Even more so when they continue to do it after experiencing said issue.

And even then you only see such occurrences in the first or second rotation of endless missions and said Capture to Exterminate runs.

 

18 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

Here is the problem. Wait for them to get corrupted... I never saw 20 enemies getting corrupted from one fissure, so I am sure you are just killing normal enemies.

 

Sadly you are playing the game wrong. Is not a bug.

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

[Numerikuu]

4 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

 

 

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

Normally I'd agree with you, but tell that to the Gauss's/Volt's/Nezha's etc who sprint like their life depends on it to extraction with their Zarr's and Brammas, then wonders why they or their late-joining (not really late, but late in their view due to their rushing) team members don't have max reactant. DE did not intend for that in their game. That's 100% on the players.

[trst]

16 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

 

 

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

Then when does player fault come into play? The objective is to gather a resource that only drops from specific enemies who's spawn criteria are easily divined. At what point does it become the players fault when the players aren't allowing such spawn criteria to occur?

Eliminating the spawning altogether and making all enemies corrupted by default would prevent players from shooting their own foot. But now you're trying to player-proof something by eliminating the only design aspect that sets it apart from a normal mission. Which just makes for a dull game.

[JohnMorte]

2 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Normally I'd agree with you, but tell that to the Gauss's/Volt's/Nezha's etc who sprint like their life depends on it to extraction with their Zarr's and Brammas, then wonders why they or their late-joining (not really late, but late in their view due to their rushing) team members don't have max reactant. DE did not intend for that in their game. That's 100% on the players.

Nonsense. If I can mod frames to speed through missions with 0 forma investment, then DE intends for such behavior to be in the game. Limited enemy spawns are 100% a design oversight/failure. Reactant not even reaching 10 spawned in an entire mission is a major design failure that is being overlooked time and time again because we are busy blaming players for being fast through missions. Being fast is fun, I recommend everyone try it. No other mission type punishes players for being fast, except for the mode where it's blatantly broken. (Void Fissures)

And why is it blatantly broken? Because instead of patching enemy spawns with a very basic fix for reactant missions, we're busy blaming the players.

This is why I say the blame game needs to stop. Because instead of acknowledging that the mode is broken with reactant spawns, an instant wall of "oh you're just nuking the map" strikes. Even when you aren't taking nuking frames or speeding frames, there are broken missions that don't spawn the necessary reactant. It's a problem that exists, and blaming the players delays and obfuscates the issue with nonsense white noise about how players are very naughty in what specific frames they're taking.

To summarize: Stop blaming the players, please. This doesn't have to be such a pain to get an issue addressed.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

3 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

To summarize: Stop blaming the players, please. This doesn't have to be such a pain to get an issue addressed

There is no issue though, hold that bloodlust for 2 seconds and let those uncorrupted enemies corrupt that's how the mode works.

[Numerikuu]

Ah, spotted the speed-running Gauss/Bramma user 😉

Jokes aside I do get where you're coming from, but I genuinely feel that this time around this was unintended by DE. They've already upped the spawn rates on the corrupted before due to speed runners, but now those very same speed runners have found ways to further push their speed-running to the extremes.

Should DE look into it? Of course, but I'll be surprised if they can figure out a solution without breaking something else spawn-related. Until then, cool your jets. Literally. And give yourself--and your team/enemy spawns--a chance 😂

[JohnMorte]

14 minutes ago, trst said:

Then when does player fault come into play? The objective is to gather a resource that only drops from specific enemies who's spawn criteria are easily divined. At what point does it become the players fault when the players aren't allowing such spawn criteria to occur?

Eliminating the spawning altogether and making all enemies corrupted by default would prevent players from shooting their own foot. But now you're trying to player-proof something by eliminating the only design aspect that sets it apart from a normal mission. Which just makes for a dull game.

When players use mechanics that are present in the game that aren't blatantly glitching the game, it's simply not an issue that players should have to worry about. And when we even play the mode the "Patented DE™ Approved Way" and still have issues, I want the whole issue to be resolved instead of having to run up against a wall of "oh well stop nuking the map/speeding!!!!" when the entire mode has glaring issues.

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

There is no issue though, hold that bloodlust for 2 seconds and let those uncorrupted enemies corrupt that's how the mode works.

The point is missed. Thanks for playing.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

This is your fault. This bug happens very rarely, and is more triggered by bad players with no patience.

And don't try to pull the "more tedious" excuse. Relic missions are the same length or shorter except for railjack. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

40 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

When players use mechanics that are present in the game that aren't blatantly glitching the game, it's simply not an issue that players should have to worry about. And when we even play the mode the "Patented DE™ Approved Way" and still have issues, I want the whole issue to be resolved instead of having to run up against a wall of "oh well stop nuking the map/speeding!!!!" when the entire mode has glaring issues.

The point is missed. Thanks for playing.

Welcome to self control. Learn the game mode or go to trade and buy what you need if you can't handle a simple fisure.

[SneakyErvin]

100% the fault of mindless players. Give the mobs a chance to turn.

[Yamazuki]

DE likes multi-layered rng, and people here attribute any problems to player incompetence, rather than dev incompetence.

Almost every single fissure run, I get 10 reactant right away. This means if the reactant system is meant to slow people down, it's failing. All it does is make those cases where reaching 10 isn't possible a complete waste of time for no reason other than because DE didn't want to put effort into making the missions actually different from the rest of the game.

[sitfesz]

It's such a great feature, this is me standing before a pack of enemies, waiting:

Reactants have two reasons to exist, to slow us down and to prevent afk (not in railjack though). I don't like reactants either.
That's why we got invulnerable enemies during corruption phase instead of instantly dropping reactants when they didn't drop in the first second of them being corrupted.

[JohnMorte]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This is your fault. This bug happens very rarely, and is more triggered by bad players with no patience.

And don't try to pull the "more tedious" excuse. Relic missions are the same length or shorter except for railjack. 

Hard disagree. The bug "triggers" even when missions are ran the "Squeaky Clean DE APPROVED Way!!! (patent pending)"

You're just trying to blame players again. You even admit it yourself that it is a bug, but since this whole mindset is driven into players to blame other players instead of holding DE accountable for a known bug (known for years, no less), the bug will continue to exist.

And you have only yourself to blame, since you want to keep the mode having artificial difficulty due to a fundamental glitch in the mission type.

And what's with the whole "bad players" nonsense? "Bad" players will always exist, since not everyone runs missions in a situationally optimal way. Nobody likes it when people toss around blame instead of accepting that maybe the mode's flaws have been overlooked for years.

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Welcome to self control. Learn the game mode or go to trade and buy what you need if you can't handle a simple fisure.

More player blaming, with a side order of self-righteous, almighty "feedback".

Thanks for playing.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

100% the fault of mindless players. Give the mobs a chance to turn.

They do turn. If you haven't noticed, mobs turn invincible for a moment while they do turn. Enemies that are supposedly "killed" during an invulnerability "changestate" event simply weren't going to turn from the beginning.

There are quite a few changes that could fix this. Two that come to mind are just having enemy spawns continue in the mission, even during missions that normally outright stop spawns (why is this still a thing?), or maybe having enemies automatically corrupt whenever you enter a room or a specific radius near them. That way, they can still corrupt and also still have the invulnerable state that apparently is so precious to DE in order to "slow down" the game. Or something.

Please don't blame the players for developer mishaps.

10 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

DE likes multi-layered rng, and people here attribute any problems to player incompetence, rather than dev incompetence.

Almost every single fissure run, I get 10 reactant right away. This means if the reactant system is meant to slow people down, it's failing. All it does is make those cases where reaching 10 isn't possible a complete waste of time for no reason other than because DE didn't want to put effort into making the missions actually different from the rest of the game.

I also get 10 reactant easily in an overwhelming majority of my games (even when playing a speedy/nuke frame).

What certainly takes the cake for me is when I play an endless mission in a slow, deliberate manner that should definitely fulfill a "normal experience" that can't be blitzed through in any way, and the reactant still refuses to spawn. This bug hits the people who aren't speedrunning/nuking in any way more often than those pesky volt/gauss/nezha players.

"wOw tHe PlAyErS aRe sO bAD"

8 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

It's such a great feature, this is me standing before a pack of enemies, waiting:

Reactants have two reasons to exist, to slow us down and to prevent afk (not in railjack though). I don't like it either.
That's why we got invulnerable enemies during corruption phase instead of instantly dropping reactants when they didn't drop in the first second of them being corrupted.

The whole joke of the matter is that even when I speed/nuke my way through those missions, I still end up with plenty enough reactant and finish the mission.

Almost as if the whole narrative about players being bad is military-grade horses***.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

They do turn. If you haven't noticed, mobs turn invincible for a moment while they do turn. Enemies that are supposedly "killed" during an invulnerability "changestate" event simply weren't going to turn from the beginning.

There are quite a few changes that could fix this. Two that come to mind are just having enemy spawns continue in the mission, even during missions that normally outright stop spawns (why is this still a thing?), or maybe having enemies automatically corrupt whenever you enter a room or a specific radius near them. That way, they can still corrupt and also still have the invulnerable state that apparently is so precious to DE in order to "slow down" the game. Or something.

Please don't blame the players for developer mishaps.

You can also just slow down on capture missions that turn into exterminate, so fissures have a chance to spawn in addition to the set number of mobs you need to kill. I cant recall the last time I actually ran into this issue and I play most of my fissure missions with my Saryn and so alot of capture.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

2 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

 

 

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

Problem is sometimes we just wanna get things done.Also they don’t get corrupted fast enough. I just have to let myself get hit until they are corrupted by a fissure.

Just insta corrupt all enemies upon spawn.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

3 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Most of the time these issues stem from the players nuking the map/rushing to extraction before the spawns get a chance to breathe, let alone get the chance to turn corrupted in order for reactant to drop.

You can't speedrun a survival. The spawn rates are simply absolutely terrible. It's not only bad for fissures, but it also makes the gameplay totally boring. I wish Steel Path spawn rates were applied to every single mission in the game.

[Dauggie]

it's those idiot speed run mindset players fault. they will clear the entire map with spamming gauss 3rd or other frames with there nuke skill.

then wonder where the enemies go.. to #*!% with them, i just walk to the extraction. keep waiting! you guys are doing no body a favour by speeding it.

[Hayrack]

Speedrunners usually already have 10 reactants and slower players fail to collect theirs, because enemies stop spawning. As a speedrunning protection this makes no sense, but we talking DE here.

[Danielw8]

3 hours ago, trst said:

It's intentional when players speedrun the missions to the point that Corrupted enemies rarely spawn. Even more so when they continue to do it after experiencing said issue.

And even then you only see such occurrences in the first or second rotation of endless missions and said Capture to Exterminate runs.

4000 hours here thats incorrect and you can easily try it in earth interception playing in squad. Its not about how fast or how many time wait for the corrupted enemies is about enemies density due a low tier mission. As example exterminate lith in earth if you join to the squad when everybody have 7 or 8 reactans you literally are forced quit because will not spawn enought corrupted anymore. This thing is fixed in railjack a lot of density a lot of drops. A lot of times people join when i already have 10 reactans and the dude crack the relic in like 15 or 20 kills This issue is pretty much in lith relics and some meso, neo  axi and requiem missions are fine.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

 

 

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

Was about to come here and say the same thing... 👍

4 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Normally I'd agree with you, but tell that to the Gauss's/Volt's/Nezha's etc who sprint like their life depends on it to extraction with their Zarr's and Brammas, then wonders why they or their late-joining (not really late, but late in their view due to their rushing) team members don't have max reactant. DE did not intend for that in their game. That's 100% on the players.

No it's not.... Volt and Gauss are fast... Why shouldn't players play the way they want to ?

 

If DE didn't intend for players to speed run through the game then they shouldn't give players the mechanics that allow them to do exactly just that.

You can't give someone Crayons and then punish them for Painting the Walls...

4 hours ago, trst said:

Then when does player fault come into play?

Never.... Tenno have Diplomatic Immunity.

4 hours ago, trst said:

The objective is to gather a resource that only drops from specific enemies who's spawn criteria are easily divined.

Nope... The objective is to Capture the Target or Kill as Many enemies as fast as Possible... Collecting Reactant is always a 2ndary Objective in every single Void Fissure Mission type....

 

This is essentially the problem with the Relic System vs the old Void Key System...

Back during the Void key days... Farming Prime Items was a legit Dedicated Objective of the various mission types.... Meaning obtaining Prime Parts was Directly Proportional to being better at Completing Objectives.

 

In the case of Relics is the exact Opposite... Now you have to sacrifice Mission Effectiveness in favour of Picking up the Lemons just to open your Prime Goodies...

 

Obviously DE did this on Purpose but it's still Bad Design.

4 hours ago, trst said:

At what point does it become the players fault when the players aren't allowing such spawn criteria to occur?

You never considered there might be something wrong with The Criteria itself ? 🤔

4 hours ago, trst said:

 

Eliminating the spawning altogether and making all enemies corrupted by default would prevent players from shooting their own foot

Huh ?

4 hours ago, trst said:

But now you're trying to player-proof something by eliminating the only design aspect that sets it apart from a normal mission. Which just makes for a dull game.

Idiot Proofing a feature is one of the most important lessons all designers learn in every Discipline from Programming to Engineering... It's why your ATM refuses to give you your money until you pull your Card out of the Machine... 

If banks blamed their Customers for forgetting their Cards in the ATM then banking would literally not be a thing because nobody will put up with a System that isn't designed around human behaviour....

 

BTW the ATM example comes from my favourite book:

You should read it if you have any interest in any sort of design discipline what's so ever... It's really good...

 

Here's a video example using Doors this time:

I know gamers don't like using things that are designed so that even idiots can't use them wrong... But you know what... Suck it up... This is the correct way to do things 😝.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

100% the fault of mindless players. Give the mobs a chance to turn.

Never... Tenno Don't Relent... Tenno Give No Quarter... Tenno Destroy Everything 😈 !!!

 

[Keiyadan]

i miss the old day where you just could use the void key play the mission and be done not worry about anything else on the mission