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How many years has it been since bugged reactant spawns was first made public knowledge?


JohnMorte

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6 hours ago, JohnMorte said:

 

 

Stop. Poor game design is not the fault of the players. Stop blaming the players.

The entire premise of fissures is that you kill corrupted enemies for reactant. It's not poor game design in this case, it's an inability to follow basic logic by the player(s).

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I think even players who do not try to nuke every enemy the instant they spawn can still have issues with interception - the limited spawns can really screw you over in short interception missions, forcing players to deliberately let an enemy take a tower or two to slow the mission enough for enough reactant to spawn.

 

Also, players can join in an excavation mission right as the second excavator is about to be fully powered. This forces me to sit around for a full extra few minutes waiting for enemies to drop reactant for the unlucky join.

 

I think there are definite improvements to be made to the reactant system even disregarding speedrunners.

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4 hours ago, Hayrack said:

Speedrunners usually already have 10 reactants and slower players fail to collect theirs, because enemies stop spawning.

You do realize that makes no sense, right? If the speedrunners have collected their 10, how are slower players not collecting their 10? Their 10 would literally be laying on the ground behind the speedrunners.

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2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You can't give someone Crayons and then punish them for Painting the Walls...

Nope... The objective is to Capture the Target or Kill as Many enemies as fast as Possible... Collecting Reactant is always a 2ndary Objective in every single Void Fissure Mission type....

It's why your ATM refuses to give you your money until you pull your Card out of the Machine... 

1. Yes you can, you gave them crayons, not paint.

2. Reactant for relics is the main objective in a fissure mission. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be running a fissure now, would you?

3. Not every ATM does this. Maybe newer ATM's are designed this way? Or just depends on the designer?

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53 minutes ago, iPathos said:

The entire premise of fissures is that you kill corrupted enemies for reactant. It's not poor game design in this case, it's an inability to follow basic logic by the player(s).

Logically speaking then why don't Relicz have a dedicated mission where the actual main objective is to open the Relic then ?

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

You do realize that makes no sense, right? If the speedrunners have collected their 10, how are slower players not collecting their 10? Their 10 would literally be laying on the ground behind the speedrunners.

You're right... It actually doesn't make any sense... And yet That is exactly how it Happens... Maybe just like Loot there's a hard limit on how much Reactant may be lying on the Ground and so the Game Despawns some of them or whatever...

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

1. Yes you can, you gave them crayons, not paint.

Really 😐 ? Your only issue is with the fact that you can't paint with Crayons ? 😐

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

2. Reactant for relics is the main objective in a fissure mission. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be running a fissure now, would you?

No it isn't... It's the main objective for players it's not the main objective of the mission itself.... However the mission can still count as Successfull even if you don't collect enough reactant... But it will fail if you don't complete the mission objective... Whatever it maybe... And in that event you don't get your Relic Item anyway. 

 

Basically in short you can't say the main objective of Void Fissure missions is to open your Relics if the Objectives/Mechanics don't support or even conflict with the actual mission Objectives...

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

 

3. Not every ATM does this. Maybe newer ATM's are designed this way? Or just depends on the designer?

Congratulations Tenno... You just found a badly designed ATM.... Or rather you've encountered a society with a remarkably higher than average Memory that doesn't require this specific sort of design...

 

Hey... It Happens... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Logically speaking then why don't Relicz have a dedicated mission where the actual main objective is to open the Relic then ?

That's quite literally what fissures and void storms are... The whole reason they rotate is to give variety to the mission types, rather than trying to emulate the old tower system.

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1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Really 😐 ? Your only issue is with the fact that you can't paint with Crayons ? 😐

Congratulations Tenno... You just found a badly designed ATM.... Or rather you've encountered a society with a remarkably higher than average Memory that doesn't require this specific sort of design...

Must just be a cultural thing, we don't say painting with crayons, you color with crayons. You paint with paint.

No, that isn't a badly designed ATM. I think you're forgetting that credit cards have changed over the years. They don't use the stripe anymore, so not a badly designed ATM. Older ATM's would need to be able to read the stripe to do anything with your card.

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28 minutes ago, iPathos said:

That's quite literally what fissures and void storms are...

Nope.... 

Just like Earth Capture isn't a Dedicated Silver Grove Mission... Void Fissures are not Dedicated Relic Opening Missions... 

Why ?

Because the Opening of Relics is a secondary Objective... Not the Primary Objective... It's that simple... 

31 minutes ago, iPathos said:

The whole reason they rotate is to give variety to the mission types, rather than trying to emulate the old tower system.

Sounds like they simply Ditched an Old Problem for a whole new one.... They need to put it back in the oven until it's done Baking 😝...

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Must just be a cultural thing, we don't say painting with crayons, you color with crayons. You paint with paint.

Yeah but that wasn't my Point....

32 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

No, that isn't a badly designed ATM. I think you're forgetting that credit cards have changed over the years. They don't use the stripe anymore, so not a badly designed ATM. Older ATM's would need to be able to read the stripe to do anything with your card.

I live in the Third World, Buddy.... We still use Strips 😝 !!!

Anyway my point is Relics need Dedicate Missions, Objectives & Mechanics for opening them... Preferably without Conflict...

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Then your ATM's should still keep the card in during a transaction, not the way you say they do.

I said they Keep the Money until you pull out the Card... Didn't I ? 

Let me check....

Yep... That's what I said... I never mentioned anything about Transactions.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Sounds like they simply Ditched an Old Problem for a whole new one.... They need to put it back in the oven until it's done Baking 😝...

You're several years late to that party. The missions themselves function entirely properly in standard gameplay situations. Just because some players decide they want to embody the essence of speed and thus lock themselves out of the intended reward (and then complain about it here) by ignoring the core mechanic of the mission type, they can suffer the consequences.

I see you continue to tout the reactant being a secondary objective - it's the primary reason people choose to run that mission type. The fact that failing to complete the "main mission objective" implies the inability to get your secondary reward is nonsense at best - it's common sense that failing the main objective will lose your reward because that's how missions work. Using that as a pedestal to try and elevate the importance of something already compulsory is both a moot point and a weak argument.

Also, the relic system is ostensibly better than the tower key system. The hellhole that was Tower 3 Capture/Survival/Sabotage drop tables is a blessing to be rid of - since not only can you choose your selection of 6 potential drops, you can also influence their drop rate through refinement. (See Loki Prime Systems cost for reference, as it and the Chassis were two of the most irritating items to try to farm from that previous system.)

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This turned needlessly personal, but my two cents...I've been on both sides of this problem, which is kinda a problem, albeit a rare one for me. I've had times where some people run through the level, I come back to my controller and start picking up reactant. Only I didn't have enough, so I left to avoid holding others back. On the flipside, I've sped through a level, got all 10 reactant, and I notice a slower player can't get all 10. I'm the kind of person who will wait for everyone to have all 10 reactant before going to extraction. 5 mins passes and nothing, so they end up leaving. I say it's a problem on DE's part. It's just a rarity for me. This is just my take on it, so just...be gentle when throwing me at the wall.

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

I'm the kind of person who will wait for everyone to have all 10 reactant before going to extraction. 5 mins passes and nothing, so they end up leaving. I say it's a problem on DE's part.

As am I, though I disagree on the second part. The main reason people end up failing to get reactant (behind going too fast and killing non-corrupted enemies before they get a chance to be corrupted) is due to joining the session late. There is some counterplay on DE's part around this, as there are particular parts of each mission that will lock new squadmates out of being able to join too late - the unfortunate thing is that some people already get into matchmaking before the objective is complete and only manage to properly load in well after that threshold is met. It's cases like that which tend to end up with players being entirely unable to get their 10 reactant, on all platforms. On PC at least, there's an element of specs to take into account - some people can load into squads within seconds, some take quite literally minutes.

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1 minute ago, iPathos said:

You're several years late to that party. The missions themselves function entirely properly in standard gameplay situations.

Maybe they do...maybe they don't.... Doesn't mean there's no Room for improvement or that this is not a Problem.

2 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Just because some players decide they want to embody the essence of speed and thus lock themselves out of the intended reward (and then complain about it here) by ignoring the core mechanic of the mission type, they can suffer the consequences.

Except it doesn't just affect those players... They're behavior is affecting anyone they're Teamed with aswell... Infact it affects the Team Mates' more than the Culprit depending on the situation.... I bet that thought never once crossed your mind.

5 minutes ago, iPathos said:

 

I see you continue to tout the reactant being a secondary objective - it's the primary reason people choose to run that mission type.

Yes... There's a difference between the primary reason and the Primary Objective....

7 minutes ago, iPathos said:

The fact that failing to complete the "main mission objective" implies the inability to get your secondary reward is nonsense at best - it's common sense that failing the main objective will lose your reward because that's how missions work. Using that as a pedestal to try and elevate the importance of something already compulsory is both a moot point and a weak argument

My argument is just fine.... It's your argument I'm not so sure about since it seems like you've got some sort of Axe to grind against Speed Runners and your Letting your little Vendetta get in the way of adding some much desired improvement to the way The Relics work.

9 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Also, the relic system is ostensibly better than the tower key system.

Who cares ?

My point was this issue needs to be fixed.... I get that you don't like Speed Runners but I didn't think a fellow Tenno would deny this is a problem just because it doesn't affect them specifically....

 

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19 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I said they Keep the Money until you pull out the Card... Didn't I ? 

Let me check....

Yep... That's what I said... I never mentioned anything about Transactions.

 

Then your machines must be different from American machines. The old ones, you got your money out before you ejected your card. You only ejected your card when you were done completely with your interaction.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Then your machines must be different from American machines. 

Probably ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

The old ones, you got your money out before you ejected your card. You only ejected your card when you were done completely with your interaction.

It was discovered alot of people forgot their Cards in the ATM hence they decided to hold your money Hostage until you pulled your Card out First....

You would think that means that people would then Pull out their Cards but Forget to grab their Cash.... However since getting the Cash was the main objective of Interacting with the Machine in the first place... It turned out that didn't require a Reminder....

 

How do ATM's work these days anyway ?

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2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Maybe they do...maybe they don't.... Doesn't mean there's no Room for improvement or that this is not a Problem.

I never said there wasn't room for improvement, there always is with DE but their current state of taking in feedback does not instill much hope.\

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Except it doesn't just affect those players... They're behavior is affecting anyone they're Teamed with aswell... Infact it affects the Team Mates' more than the Culprit depending on the situation....

The main one missing out will be the one going fast, as they will miss any straggler enemies that either spawn after their passing or are just plain ignored. Many more times than once I've seen both the latest join and the host of the session miss out for vastly different reasons as detailed in my above post. 

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I bet that thought never once crossed your mind.

Get off your high horse and don't mistake my attitude here for complacency. You know I already tried to bring up improvement on DE's part as you definitely saw my recent thread.

6 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yes... There's a difference between the primary reason and the Primary Objective....

Yes, there is. Except you keep saying "primary objective" while ignoring the fact it's a compulsory part of every mission.

7 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It's your argument I'm not so sure about since it seems like you've got some sort of Axe to grind against Speed Runners and your Letting your little Vendetta get in the way of adding some much desired improvement to the way The Relics work.

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that my opinion here is biased against speedrunners? It's a known fact that running through fissures too fast bypasses the sources of reactant in the vast majority of cases, I'm simply pointing that out. As above, I never once said they couldn't improve it.

8 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Who cares ?

My point was this issue needs to be fixed.... I get that you don't like Speed Runners but I didn't think a fellow Tenno would deny this is a problem just because it doesn't affect them specifically....

Again, your misconception here is that I have something against speed runners despite that being exactly what I did through trials during their lifetime. Going too fast in any fissure mission invites problems and until we get proper feedback around anything suggested, failing to acknowledge the state of things is just plain silly.

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Just now, Lutesque said:

Probably ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It was discovered alot of people forgot their Cards in the ATM hence they decided to hold your money Hostage until you pulled your Card out First....

You would think that means that people would then Pull out their Cards but Forget to grab their Cash.... However since getting the Cash was the main objective of Interacting with the Machine in the first place... It turned out that didn't require a Reminder....

 

How do ATM's work these days anyway ?

I think anymore, there is a chip in the cards that you just scan on the ATM wherever the spot is. Though these cards are still very new. Some cards, if they all aren't using this, you quickly insert part of the card then pull it right back out.

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3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

I think anymore, there is a chip in the cards that you just scan on the ATM wherever the spot is. Though these cards are still very new. Some cards, if they all aren't using this, you quickly insert part of the card then pull it right back out.

EMV cards, yep. Backwards compatibility is still a very big thing to cover though, so the usage of magnetic strips will likely stick around for a fair while yet.

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Just now, iPathos said:

EMV cards, yep. Backwards compatibility is still a very big thing to cover though, so the usage of magnetic strips will likely stick around for a fair while yet.

Maybe in other parts of the world but the cards that some of my family members have don't contain the magnetic strips at all. Completely chipped.

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4 minutes ago, iPathos said:

The main one missing out will be the one going fast, as they will miss any straggler enemies that either spawn after their passing or are just plain ignored. Many more times than once I've seen both the latest join and the host of the session miss out for vastly different reasons as detailed in my above post. 

Thats funny... It's usually the exact opposite in my Experience....

5 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Get off your high horse and don't mistake my attitude here for complacency. You know I already tried to bring up improvement on DE's part as you definitely saw my recent thread

I have no idea what you're talking about.... Also I think il stay on my Horse thank you very much 😝.

6 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Yes, there is. Except you keep saying "primary objective" while ignoring the fact it's a compulsory part of every mission.

Exactly.... So why don't Relics have a mission where Opening The Relic is the Primary Objective ? 

8 minutes ago, iPathos said:

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that my opinion here is biased against speedrunners?

You're the one who wants to blame players instead of DE.... What was I suppose to think ? 😝

9 minutes ago, iPathos said:

It's a known fact that running through fissures too fast bypasses the sources of reactant in the vast majority of cases, I'm simply pointing that out.

It actually isn't well known... That's why it keeps Happening....

Most players are either incapable or simply don't want to bum rush through missions fast enough to make this connection.

11 minutes ago, iPathos said:

As above, I never once said they couldn't improve it.

You may not have said it... But I still think that's how you feel.... Like I said... Seems like you got some sort of Axe to grind.

13 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Again, your misconception here is that I have something against speed runners

Don't you ? 🤨

13 minutes ago, iPathos said:

despite that being exactly what I did through trials during their lifetime

Maybe you're the self Loathing Type ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

18 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Going too fast in any fissure mission invites problems and until we get proper feedback around anything suggested, failing to acknowledge the state of things is just plain silly.

That's why it's Bad Design....

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

I think anymore, there is a chip in the cards that you just scan on the ATM wherever the spot is. Though these cards are still very new. Some cards, if they all aren't using this, you quickly insert part of the card then pull it right back out.

That seems familiar.... I might not be thinking of an ATM Though 🤔...

 

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9 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Most of the time these issues stem from the players nuking the map/rushing to extraction before the spawns get a chance to breathe, let alone get the chance to turn corrupted in order for reactant to drop.

And this is no excuse for this bug to excist. You can never get everyone to "take it slow" in a fast paced game like this. 

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