Old melee, ignis and recent khora nerf vs current explosive weapons hitting through the wall

[(PSN)Robson40000]

Sorry if there was a topic about it. Im just curious if there is any reasonable explanation why sth like 2 years ago melee and ignis could hit through objects or even the walls. The same was with Khora whip and DE nerfed it, but now all new explosive weapons can hit through the walls. I understand the point that explosions got some range but its kinda stupid that i can shoot walls or closed gates and kill enemies behint it. From my experience it is even possible to shoot only walls so enemies cant be even seen, or just shooting the floor to kill all enemies around u and below u. It is ridiculous how it works now, those nerfs were good and reasonable but i dont understand why explosive weapons stay untouched.

[Dauggie]

dont worry, with enough people asking about this, we will soon get AOE weapon's not passing through walls as well 😀 just wait patiently, your wish will be granted

[Schwitzer]

I kind of like it, even if it doesn't make sense. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Weird. I’ve never tried this before, nor have I specifically noticed it, but if it works like you say, it does seem like odd behaviour. I can put my vote towards explosions being blocked by LoS requirements where it makes sense 👍

Gonna do some testing myself now. Maybe it actually does make sense in a way; gonna find out

[Hayrack]

But Ignis works through walls though?

[0_The_F00l]

I have previously supported making AoE weapons LOS from point of impact.

It really is something that should be corrected and brought in line with other similar mechanics.

[trst]

Generally things getting exploited is what justifies mechanic nerfs like those. If people start spamming aoe weapons with the goal of killing enemies through walls (especially if it's in some afk farm) then we'd eventually see the same changes happen there.

[KitMeHarder]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)Robson40000 said:

those nerfs were good and reasonable

No thanks, if anything they need to be reverted. Maiming Strike no longer exist, and Primed Reach's nerf makes it so melees no longer have 10-15m of range, so all DE's buggy LoS check serves to do is allow pixel wide objects to protect enemies from massive scythes. Same with Khora, it just forced what used to be a frame that could be very active, into nothing more than a campy loot gremlin.

[T-Shark69]

As long sa there's a way to hit canisters behind walls in Void or in bugged doors then its fine for me.

[Soy77]

Overpowered stuff are more fun to play than underpowered stuff.

 

But if you insist.. well, okay let's nerf that one too. Let's make every weapons mk-1 braton and every frames vanilla excalibur. That should be challenging.

[PublikDomain]

Because consistency is not one of DE's strong points. They'll nerf something for some reason (usually even a good reason) and then release something that does the exact same thing or worse in the very next update. Or they'll forget that another mechanic has been doing the same thing for years and let it go unchanged.

But the LoS is at least a little bit better than it was. It used to be incredibly buggy and it took months of nagging to get them to admit it, and further months for them to actually get around to improving it. And it's still a little buggy because LoS checks are by their nature buggy and inconsistent. Personally I think everything the LoS is used on is a big waste of time and other balancing tools like falloff, ammo economy, and handling would be much better choices.

[Fallen77]

People have been (rightfully) complaining for a while that aoe weapons are completely overshadowing other weapons, they'll get (rightfully) nerfed in one way or another eventually, then the "powercreep ftw only fun no sense of game balance" crowd is gonna come around and cry that they have to use half a limp brain again to do anything, that DE nerf everything without reason and that they don't listen to the community.

The cycle of life of this forum.

[cute_moth.npc]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Because consistency is not one of DE's strong points.

Very much ^^;

Shedu and Tombfinger function on line of sight while other similar weapons go through walls.

Sevagoth's ghost can hurt arbitration drones while other frames like Valkyr can't claw them.

Nourish, Roar and Xata work on Titania. Smite infusion does not.

Protective dash is useless in defense unless it's with a defense operative like in Sorties, then it's incredibly overpowering.

It's not very cohesive.

I personally use Tombfinger a lot and aside from staircases the LoS behavior is pretty decent now at least?

[KitMeHarder]

10 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

and cry that they have to use half a limp brain again to do anything

Because aiming at slow moving AI that walks straight towards you is what, challenging? This game gets its interactivity from other sources like the parkour system, ability/gear management, shield gate resetting, the different approach needed to slaughter en masse, etc... I don't need to fire 3 rockets to hit all of the Grineer standing around a knee-high crate.

Traditional aiming is for when you need to kill ~30 relatively intelligent enemies in a mission, not 400 lobotomized soda cans in the first 5 minutes of a SP survival.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

just another inconsistency by DE; I'm sure if they could, they'd make all AoEs never penetrate walls, but players would complain because it means not being able to clear rooms as fast.

[ReddyDisco]

Going by DE's trend of 'not touching the power but making it more annoying to use' aoe weapons might get line of sight checks soon

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have previously supported making AoE weapons LOS from point of impact.

It really is something that should be corrected and brought in line with other similar mechanics.

Or just allow the explosions to have punch through 🤷 

IRL, explosions will still affect you through walls, scaling with the strength of the explosion. Some of the surfaces in warframe are 0.2mm thick. They wouldn’t protect you from a fart, let alone 5.8 missiles being fired from a bow.

[Merrcenary]

14 часов назад, Fallen77 сказал:

People have been crying for a while that single target weapons are completely garbage, they'll  nerf aoe weapons in one way or another eventually, then the "powercreep ftw only fun no sense of game balance" crowd is gonna come around and complain that they have to use garbage single target weapons against dozens of enemies again to do anything, that DE nerf everything without reason and that they don't listen to the community.

The cycle of life of this forum.

that way it will be more accurate

[SneakyErvin]

It does make more logical sense for explosives to go through walls compared to blades or flames. Explosions do cause shockwaves that can kill, that care more or less about walls. However, DE should probably make it so that explosive weapons deal their minimum damage if a wall or obstacle is between the detonation point and the target of the blast.

Would be even more cool if DE could actually make a system for traveling shockwaves, so the room size/layout and obstacle placement alters the damage of the blast depending on the targets' location, which could lead both to increased concentrated damage aswell as severely reduced. However I doubt DE will do that.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2021-10-02 at 4:04 AM, (PSN)Robson40000 said:

closed gates and kill enemies behint it.

The enemies tend to be right behind the door, though they aren't actually affected by the explosion, the concussive force of the explosion is what kills or damages them.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I suggest NOT hitting an actual enemy unit will cause launcher damage to go down by 90% with falloff attach. This will cause player to aim their projectile rather than spamming at the general direction. Though this also means Tenet Envoy will be more desirable.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I suggest NOT hitting an actual enemy unit will cause launcher damage to go down by 90% with falloff attach. This will cause player to aim their projectile rather than spamming at the general direction. Though this also means Tenet Envoy will be more desirable.

That kinda makes them not really reflect explosive weapons. The projectile hitting or not shouldnt really matter, which is why we have impact radius that lowers the damage the further from the epicenter they are. I would agree with your idea if we were talking about cone based AoE projectile weapons, since their intention is to penetrate and kill whatever is on the other side of whatever they hit. Like certain RPG's that hit a surface and sends a superheated cone of some metal compound inside the target. Hitting the ground next to or a wall behind the target doesnt have the same effect or kill potential.

[Fallen77]

Le 03/10/2021 à 00:42, KitMeHarder a dit :

Because aiming at slow moving AI that walks straight towards you is what, challenging? This game gets its interactivity from other sources like the parkour system, ability/gear management, shield gate resetting, the different approach needed to slaughter en masse, etc... I don't need to fire 3 rockets to hit all of the Grineer standing around a knee-high crate.

Traditional aiming is for when you need to kill ~30 relatively intelligent enemies in a mission, not 400 lobotomized soda cans in the first 5 minutes of a SP survival.

It does not take a lot of skill, but it certainly requires way more than just shooting a single projectile that will annihilate everything down the hall and in other rooms regardless of where it lands. It forces you to use a little bit more than just your peripheral vision.

Traditionnal aiming is for everything, you've just been spoiled by overpowered mechanics and can't even recognize it. And yes there are other mechanics at play, but they're all rendered obsolete when I can just delete everything from the map with a few half-aimed tonkor shots.

If los was implemented, we'd at least need to pay a little more attention to where we chuck our explosives. I mean come on, we have arching projectiles on some weapons and the envoi with a hand guided rocket, and yet, we have no need to judge distances or to make our rockets dodge around corners and covers, if this isn't wasted potential I don't know what is.

[KitMeHarder]

17 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

the envoi with a hand guided rocket, and yet, we have no need to judge distances or to make our rockets dodge around corners and covers, if this isn't wasted potential I don't know what is.

Eh, I view it more as a gimmick to make it seem unique (akin to weapons like the Buzlok), cause lord knows their stats aren't doing it. Is it wasted potential since we don't have enemies evasive enough for the Buzlok to be good, or the need to lay traps with the Castanas, or the need to bring specific weapon/companion pairs like Djinn/Gazal Machete to do good damage, etc... compared to the game we'd have to endure if it was?

In terms of a discussion like this, I have never been a proponent for universal LoS checks. But Warframe, the way it is, is not designed to flow well with LoS checks as they are now (much like the old self damage system). And I know it wouldn't be this bad (and this might even be a low FPS problem), but spawn 20 heavy gunners in the simulacrum, stand in the middle, press Fire Blast, and get back to me. The amount of enemies it doesn't hit makes me literally cringe.

[0_The_F00l]

On 2021-10-03 at 11:29 AM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Or just allow the explosions to have punch through 🤷 

IRL, explosions will still affect you through walls, scaling with the strength of the explosion. Some of the surfaces in warframe are 0.2mm thick. They wouldn’t protect you from a fart, let alone 5.8 missiles being fired from a bow.

IRL effects are a poor excuse in my opinion.

Also you are giving the example of things which are 0.2mm , there are also objects which are more than a meter. Made of materials that are able to withstand the pressure of space, transport through FTL , fires of hell and Frost's of the tundra. Not to mention density of materials matters. That 0.2mm could be a lot depending on the material used.  

Environments in warframe are also mostly indestructible , unlike real life where they can be destroyed.

IRL explosives also have shrapnel , they are not just concussion blasts. I am perfectly ok with converting all explosions to shrapnel based effects having some punchthrough , like an omni directional shotgun shell.

There are multiple things that can be made as good as Real life and interesting, but we need to work with the limitations we have and try for the simplest least complicated options (or atleast DE would be more inclined to listen to simpler solutions) 

While fixed punchthrough is indeed a valid option , how will it impact the various explosives with different radius of explosion ?  Will it rise with radius improving mods or reduce with it? How much should be baseline ? Will punchthrough mods also interact with it ? (I have had + pt rivens on explosives and they can be hilariously useless depending on the tileset and the value of pt)

There are also very select surfaces where PT doesn't work.

That's why I think AOE weapons should get the same effects as melee , including the "follow-through " stat so it gives less damage as it passes though more objects and enemies.