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Do you genuinely believe tutorials would in fact help?


ZeroX4
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I am a living example of a person that quitted warframe after few days cause didnt understood how modding works and was too lazy to find out on youtube or google since there was no in game tutorial that could teach me how to do it i mean i couldnt find any
Yet i came back because my cousin needed someone to translate what ppl whispering him want to trade with him
And offered me with his knowledge about modding and game for my translation services and well im still here so guess it worked

From time to time i see ppl say warframe should have some tutorial because many new players quit at first few hours of the game because lack of guidance and proper explanation to what to do or how to upgrade stuff

Well i cant argue with that since im a person that quitted for that exact reason

Yet i go online today i see something like that from picture below and i lose hope that any amount of effort or detail put into providing us with info/guides/tutorials will ever help

Just to note 1 thing
I would understand that kind of question from MR idk maybe 5 max 8 but not from 17
And from here originate my question
Do we really need proper tutorials or more info when some players fail at locating most basic information? (for sure he crafted many things and may times clicked linked items even see that section at weapon description not to mention checked build requirements and checking by himself the way i did in the picture is faster than asking on Q&A chat)

QPWsCUj.png

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3 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Do we really need proper tutorials or more info when some players fail at locating most basic information? (for sure he crafted many things and may times clicked linked items even see that section at weapon description not to mention checked build requirements and checking by himself the way i did in the picture is faster than asking on Q&A chat)

I'd say no, because when there are better tutorials people will complain about something else regarding the tutorial, like how it is easy to skip through without learning anything or something equally stupid. And it isnt like such things are uncommon in games. Take a game like Outriders for example, it had one of the most well made information handbooks in a game within the game itself, you could practically find anything in there. The things it didnt show and tell were how mechanics worked on the back end, something players very rarely if ever get information about. So what happened? People started to complain about these hidden mechanical interactions instead of doing what people do in other games, figure them out.

And in many other games it is common that people ignore the info at hand and instead just ask in a chat, which results in mostly wasted development time to do the really crystal clear tutorials or handbooks in the first place. I blame it on the rush mentality of todays gamers, which is a plague that has spread alot through streamers just so they can have "viable" content to show and not fall behind other streamers in grind games. #*!%ing "keeping up with the Joneses" mindset if you ask me.

 

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19 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Do we really need proper tutorials or more info when some players fail at locating most basic information?

Yes. Players not knowing where to go to find information on their own is a problem caused by things not being well explained.

If the player in your example failed to locate this basic information, why do you think that might be? Maybe they were a returning player and didn't know that this feature existed on market pages? Maybe they checked their Codex and reached a dead end? Maybe it was faster to just ask Q&A chat than google it? Edit: Which, mind you, is the sole entire purpose of that chat.

So maybe crafting requirements or blueprint locations should be placed in a more prominent location on the preview? It could be that they glossed over that information because it doesn't stand out. Maybe the Codex should link to this information? Maybe the game should have you buy something from the Market after installing the Segment so the player has to locate a blueprint to continue?

And even if better tutorializing/information doesn't help this player, so what? There will always be people who can't be taught or don't want to learn. So why withhold tools from the ones who can?

Edited by PublikDomain
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Would some people not pay attention or not get the tutorial: Yes.  '

Should we not even try to put in some tutorials for various systems: Of course not, there will be players who the tutorials would help them understand things. There are also players who may not know or feel comfortable asking questions about something so they don't know where to get the info they need so they just quit, a tutorial in game could have helped them. 

 

The two major systems that really should get a tutorial are railjack and nemesis system.  So many people come either with simple questions or just confusion about why they can't do X or what X even is. 

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According to the Steam achievement stats, Warframe loses 60% of its players by 2 hours, 74% of the players by 10 hours and 88% of the players by 100 hours (that also includes time spent on the launcher, e.g. installing the game), so tutorials and general guidance definitely wouldn't hurt at the start of the game.

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6 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

According to the Steam achievement stats....

Dude, Steam achievements means nothing. My achievements in game and steam are completely different, not to mention that steam isn't the only way to play this game...

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12 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

According to the Steam achievement stats, Warframe loses 60% of its players by 2 hours, 74% of the players by 10 hours and 88% of the players by 100 hours (that also includes time spent on the launcher, e.g. installing the game), so tutorials and general guidance definitely wouldn't hurt at the start of the game.

And how many of those left because of reasons other than "I don't know what to do".

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1 minute ago, vanaukas said:

Dude, Steam achievements means nothing. My achievements in game and steam are completely different, not to mention that steam isn't the only way to play this game...

The Steams numbers are actually relatively high, on PS4 the % of players to reach 10 hours is 29.43%. Honestly, if Steam didn't track the installation time on launcher, the Steam achievements would be on the same level. 

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You can spend years idiot-proofing something, some will still get lost somehow no matter what you do.

On the tutorial topic, I guess it would indeed be efficient to help many players figure out how some basic things work. But considering the kind of game warframe is, might not make that much of an impact. If you're not the type pf person to pay attention, figure things out by yourself, experiment, search, chances are you're not gonna have a very good time with the game regardless, whether you're told to slap a serration on your braton or not.

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8 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

And how many of those left because of reasons other than "I don't know what to do".

Some percentage, but what does it matter? Do you think people only leave for reasons other than "I don't know what to do"? People don't stick around for all sorts of reasons. Some of those reasons are inevitable, but some can be addressed.

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4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

People don't stick around for all sorts of reasons. Some of those reasons are inevitable, but some can be addressed.

Yeah if they want to add more tutorials it'll help those that are confused, I'm saying that using achievements to point out this specific problem isn't very reliable, those numbers can be many different reasons not just people that are confused.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I don't think it needs too much but if they add more tutorials,monster hunter style where everything the first time you open shows a text box saying how it works, then I don't really care just do it

I think this is a great course to follow. DE did this with the new player experience update and it  was fantastic. Keeping this style going for every new, major, section a player gets introduced to in the game would be awesome. 

Considering the lack of a pause feature outside of solo, I think the perfect placement for these, as well as a more forced streamline pathway of the game, is with the quests. Either pause a section, explain via a fancy looking doc or overlay script, or add a permanent set of instructions exactly like in the new player experience change.

 

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I don't know... some people refuse to read. Sure, more well placed "cues and clues" would help inch players towards meaningful character progress... but lots of people need to learn to investigate in-game (I'm not talking about wiki or google).

This Bubonico picture is an excellent example. Link and read, very simple. No google, no wiki, no Q&A, just reading.

I have a childhood experience that has stuck with me. My neighbour was 17-18 y/o, plays pokemon on the gameboy and has grinded level 100 pokemon, they ask me to teach them "why do some of my attacks say 'Not Very Effective'?" So there I am 12-13 y/o teaching a "grown up" about Type Advantage. They skipped all the dialogue, all of it!

You can lead a horse to tutorials, but you can't make it drink! Angry Lilo And Stitch GIF Grrrr! So frustrating!

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd say no, because when there are better tutorials people will complain about something else regarding the tutorial

 

A good tutorial is one that combines gameplay with instruction. 

I've always maintained that system introductions should be done through quests. A simple one for teaching how to use mods would be something as easy as having Ordis direct the player towards an Endo cache and then get directed to use it to upgrade a mod after installing the requisite module in the Orbiter. 
Player connects missions to Endo and Endo to Mod upgrades without needing a text infodump to explain it all. 

You can never please everyone, its impossible to make a perfect system. What's important is whether or not the presence of an active tutorial to teach a new player about important systems improves the play experience for a large enough crowd of people. 

I also believe completion of the Star Chart should be a permanently tracked mission, as i managed to get 400 hours played before working out that the handful of nodes i missed were blocking me from Arbitrations ... 
Some sort of simple reward for clearing all nodes on a Planet with a UI marker indicating that doing so will grant a reward (Could be mods, Endo, Credits. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as there's a visible benefit to clearing every node), essentially incentivising the new player to run those missions despite not being well rewarded for each one individually. 
Reason being that when i first went through the Star Chart, i skipped non essential missions. They were just identical missions to ones I'd already done a million times before and gotten nothing for doing, so they just sat there unfinished. 

These sort of additions would not be stressful to develop but would see new players given early direction to hook them into looking deeper. 

Gotta remember that for a lot of us who've been around for years, the systems we have now were introduced to us over time. We had time to learn existing systems before a new one got thrown at us.
A brand new player right now has 8 years of systems layered in to learn all at once. 
Some people may like being thrown into the deep end and figuring out how to swim on their own. Lots more dont. 
 

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Would they help? Sure. Would they solve the issue? Absolutely not.

There are seemingly plenty of players can't be bothered to read the information on their screen, attempt to explore UI options instead of giving up at the first though of not knowing what to do, or fail to listen to clearly spelled out in-mission instructions. More tutorials won't accomplish much of anything for such players.

Also they all have global chat, the forums, and the wiki all at their fingertips and are all linked in-game. So anyone who is lacking information or wants more is fully capable of seeking it out if they so choose.

 

Sure more can't hurt but I suspect there will be considerable overlap with players who'll either figure out the basics by clicking around the UI or would check external sources with those who would actually learn something from more tutorials. Some players are just hopeless without a compass marker directing them to each and every mouse click.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Yeah if they want to add more tutorials it'll help those that are confused, I'm saying that using achievements to point out this specific problem isn't very reliable, those numbers can be many different reasons not just people that are confused.

They're the best numbers we have, and as long as you look at them relative to themselves they're perfectly adequate for anything happening in General Discussion. Large fractions of new players drop off at certain parts of the NPE, and this is generally consistent across all reporting platforms. And while DE's surely got better and more accurate numbers, they're trying to improve the NPE too! So if the stats we have access to say they should do it, and if the developers themselves are already doing it, then what's left to argue? If improving the NPE didn't help, then DE wouldn't keep spending time and money on it. Yet they are.

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Tutorials would be nice, but I would really just also like to see less stuff with super hidden mechanics. So many pieces of gear, skills, etc where there's an extra effect that's sometimes even the key point about this thing and you wouldn't ever know without having the wiki open all the time ><

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4 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Do we really need proper tutorials or more info when some players fail at locating most basic information?

I think the fact that some people may at some times not be able to locate information that you think is easy-to-find isn't enough evidence to condemn that entire idea of tutorials.  Player retention is all about statistics.  If you have better onboarding, you'll have better retention.  You're not looking for perfection, you're just looking for "more".

But even in regards to the example you provided with the Bubonico, I can immediately see problems in the UI that could lead a player to miss the information they're seeking.  To see information about where you get the weapon blueprint, you have to hover over the part of the UI that says Build Requirements.  If I was looking over a UI trying to find out where I get the weapon, I wouldn't think that "Build Requirements" is the place to look.  Would I eventually look there?  Maybe.  But it's not exactly doing a great job of telling players that this kind of information can be found there.  Personally, I think this is a great example of where the team could make small improvements to streamline information to the player.

 

Quote

Do you genuinely believe tutorials would in fact help?

Yes and no.  Yes, tutorials would surely improve understanding and retention.  However, would it be enough to justify the work that goes into them?  I'm not sure.  Because more important than the fact that the game lacks many tutorials is that the underlying systems are very complicated to understand.  Can you teach someone to put mods in their weapon?  Yes.  But can you teach them to mod well?  Because that requires teaching them math like The Difference Between Two Squares; you may not know what that phrase means, but trust me when I say that if you know how to mod a weapon effectively, you're applying this principle every time.

Additionally, even if you made these tutorials, would players stick around for them?  Brozime's Basic Modding Guide is a YouTube video I often point new players to, and it's a 10-minute video.  Even if we were to make that guide more efficient and halved the time, how many players are going to watch a 5-minute video?  Or if you don't make it a video, how are you going to pack 5-minutes worth of video into some other form of tutorial in a way that players can quickly reference and digest?  Because you're not only trying to communicate the base mechanics, but also how players can use those mechanics successfully, because it's sooooo easy to mod in unsuccessful ways.  This is a gap I genuinely think the game may never be able to bridge within itself, because the modding system is too complicated to make a smooth, easy-to-digest tutorial for; the system just has too much complexity in its design.

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Warframe is an example of a game where the players themselves are the game's tutorials. Lots of players have no interest talking to people and listening to them so they don't figure anything out. Almost every long term player has some weird bit of knowledge that they and probably ONLY they know. The only way to figure things out in this game is to ask or mess around for a long time. Warframe players LOVE to explain things and help out. Sometimes people give out false information but they are just so excited to share they don't have the patience to test their advice for eligibility. so it's a bit of a shame that people don't feel like asking.

There is just SO MUCH in the game that DE can't make a tutorial for all of it without people still having to ask questions.

Edited by (PSN)SHINOBISERPENT
Typos
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I’m fine with trying to pick up new player slack, and personally I really enjoyed discovering things for myself. A comprehensive tutorial runs the risk of losing that sense of discovery, and I’m enjoying the challenge of knowing juuust enough to make a suggestion or point someone in the right direction, but not reveal how everything works or what to expect (always room for improvement regarding information divulging)

Lately though, I’m wondering whether it’s not just an incomplete tutorial (or lack there-of) that sees new players leaving, but a combination of at least two things; tutorial and ease of gameplay.

I was recently remembering my early days, and was reminded of how, fairly quickly, I was able to overpower my enemies but still needing rewards that the missions provided.

I remember thinking “Why would I not equip Serration all the time?”, because that meant I could get the reward easier and faster. But in doing so, the fights became easier, because that’s what I wanted them to be.

Personally, I was first intrigued by Warframe for its theme and its third person shooting. Then the game gave me the ability to make it easy for myself, and I took it, because it made sense at the time. And unsurprisingly, the third-person-shooter space-pirate-ninja aspect started falling to the wayside until I took a long break too because I got bored. I was kept in the game by playing around with different options for a while before I quit, but as long as every option I played around with was easily assuring victory in a mission, I was missing out on the interesting combat that originally intrigued me

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I believe they couldn't hurt at least.

Hell, how to use Omni on Railjacks is relegated to a single blurb from Cy and the player fumbling around with no idea if the gunk they're spraying even remotely works.

But about 90% of Warframe's problem is the obtusely convoluted, partially hidden math and calculations that are needlessly bloated for no reason.

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wouldn't help me personally, way too many hours in this game now lol, but newer players would definitely benefit. I do think that tutorials in the simulacrum for certain game mechanics like mining, railjack repairs etc would certainly be helpful. sadly while DE does make an effort every now and again to make things easier for newer players, it doesn't happen often enough.

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8 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

I am a living example of a person that quitted warframe after few days cause didnt understood how modding works and was too lazy to find out on youtube or google since there was no in game tutorial that could teach me how to do it i mean i couldnt find any
Yet i came back because my cousin needed someone to translate what ppl whispering him want to trade with him
And offered me with his knowledge about modding and game for my translation services and well im still here so guess it worked

From time to time i see ppl say warframe should have some tutorial because many new players quit at first few hours of the game because lack of guidance and proper explanation to what to do or how to upgrade stuff

Well i cant argue with that since im a person that quitted for that exact reason

Yet i go online today i see something like that from picture below and i lose hope that any amount of effort or detail put into providing us with info/guides/tutorials will ever help

Just to note 1 thing
I would understand that kind of question from MR idk maybe 5 max 8 but not from 17
And from here originate my question
Do we really need proper tutorials or more info when some players fail at locating most basic information? (for sure he crafted many things and may times clicked linked items even see that section at weapon description not to mention checked build requirements and checking by himself the way i did in the picture is faster than asking on Q&A chat)

QPWsCUj.png

I'm the type person who likes to figure things out and discover some mechanics and if I get stuck or find something very perplexing, I have no problem doing some research to understand the mechanics behind a function. That being said, it appears I may be in the minority and I personally believe it would be in the interest of many new players , as well as DE, if some of the information regarding the mechanics in Warframe was more readily available and more easily accessible.

I don't know if a tutorial beyond what is in Warframe is the way to go - It could help, it could hurt: I haven't checked out the new tutorial recently, so I am not sure how in-depth it goes, but big tutorials can lead to new players feeling overwhelmed if too much information is presented too fast, not to mention, as Greybones stated above above, big, in-depth tutorials can ruin the experience of discovery for some, if everything is spoonfed.

Instead of a big tutorial, some hints could be better received, for example, if a new player goes into a Grinneer mission with a magnetic element, Lotus, or Ordis, or a pop-up can mention that certain elements are stronger vs armor, or that armor can be stripped increasing your damage. Nothing in-depth, but something to make newer players aware that their elemental damage type matters, with a clickable link to the Codex entry. 

The UI in Warframe is also not great. with Unstar voicing a potential shortcoming. Even looking at the description "researched in the Bio Lab Dojo room", one has to consider things from a new player's point of view. Will new players even know what that is? Do they know that it means they need to be part of a Clan? It may seem silly to players who already know the mechanics of the game and assigned names to specific things, but some new players can experience a perceived steep learning curve in terms of all the new information thrown their way. Why not say "researched in the Bio Lab Dojo room of your Clan"? I'd not be surprised if those three extra words has an unappreciated, positive impact on a new player's experience. 

Another silly example is one I experienced as a new player, albeit years ago: Being out of energy often. I remember a time early on in the game thinking: "Why the hell do we have these abilities, but we can almost never use them?" I consulted chat, who only mentioned getting Zenurik. They didn't even mention Squad Energy Restore items and only after searching in-game and consulting google, did I realize we have access to energy pads to replenish energy. A little pop-up letting new players know about Energy Restore items could make a massive positive difference to their experience, again with a link to the appropriate learning material in the Codex.

Speaking of the Codex: For an information centre, it really seems to lack a lot of information. I just checked and it doesn't even mention Squad Energy Restore. It tells us all about the Bubonico, but has no mention of how to acquire the Bubonico, or even where to look to find information on how to acquire the Bubonico.

In contrast, The Market, where acquisition information is to be found, is described as a place to "Purchase upgrades and equipment" in the ESC menu. Open that up and the first things you see are all items for Plat. I get that is how DE makes their money, but a new player could click that, be greeted with items with only Platinum price tags and categorize it as the micro-transaction shop, ie the place where you buy things with real money and nothing else. They may not even know they can buy equipment or blueprints for Credits and may quit the game without ever knowing that, labeling Warframe as pure P2W, nevermind seeing the Market as a source of information with regards to acquiring equipment.

Other QoL changes could also help the player experience, such as an optional in-depth screen showing what damage your weapon does with critical chance and critical multipliers and especially with some of the statuses like Slash or heat - Many players don't know what Bleed bleed damage is based off,  or are perplexed when they load a bunch of mods that give, big, pretty green numbers, but when they go use the weapon, it doesn't perform as well as it did with the smaller numbers.

Wow, this has turned into a rant...

tldr; Not everything needs to be spoonfed, but a lot of information about Warframe either seems to not be available in Warframe, or at the very least, is not easily found. Not a problem for people who consult outside sources, but could very well be a reason many people quit. Based on threads I've read regarding complaints that Warframe is too hard for newer players, it seems a big contribution to those complaints is simply the lack of information regarding the mechanics of Warframe - new players struggle because they are doing something wrong and have no idea what that something is, or where to find out in the game. A tutorial could help, or hurt and optional "new player hints" may be a better way to go.

Edited by Silligoose
Misspelled acquire - I blame lag
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