Do you genuinely believe tutorials would in fact help?

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I disagee with experimentation being heavily discouraged in WF. The game is easy so gives us more than enough room to experiment and be successful with our builds.

It's not the Difficulty that Discourages Experimenting... It's the Economy and the Community...

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you care about what the community thinks is correct or not that is on you.

I get that this is something that makes sense in regard to bullies and that sort of thing but believe it or not it's not inherently bad to care about what others think... 

2 hours ago, Invisibleaxeman said:

though I must admit as a wiki user I've never went into any fight in Warframe without knowing everything about the mechanics

Just 5 Minutes ago I got my Ass handed to me by a Necramechs.... Why exactly are these things Permantly Invulnerable ? 🤔

1 hour ago, ZeroX4 said:

Thats some awesome idea 

"We do have manuals for hammers yet somehow some ppl are mentally unequipped to wield them"
Proving that no amount of information will help someone who is stupid

Just like these forums
Just because someone have account here does not mean he/she can read and understand what he/she just reed

And you are prime example of that
Like i was repeating over and over i am living example of the fact that ppl quits when left without guidance and help
So obviously im ALL IN for more info i just state that like my screenshot from OP proves for some ppl no amount of info and guides will actually help
So we cant expect that for EVERYONE guides tutorials or any help will solve the issue

Like in your case we expect (just because you can read) you to in fact understand what you just reed
But you just proven that even if "someone" have all the info needed laid down in front of their face he will still have problem understanding/acknowledging information/help provided

How does it feel to be example of something that you claim not to be true?

Well guess i wont find out since its about time to expand my ignore list by your nickname ;)

 

Whatever you say, Tenno...

Good Luck and May the RNG be with you... ♥️

 

[ZeroX4]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm going to go for 'yes and no'.

What Warframe needs are Quest-styled Tutorials. By that I mean there should be a Quest that comes after the Vor's Prize quest that introduces players to essential systems in the game, like Modding, like the Relays, Syndicates, Teshin and so on.

Let's use Teshin as an example; the majority of players now first meet him in The Second Dream, which is kind of stupid. They have no idea who he is, what he's doing here, or why he's interested in helping us.

I am L1 and still have no idea who teshin is other than a guy selling SP crap
 

But what i would think of a solution would be rewards for doing X thing
Imagine starting player off by no color pallets
And give idk saturated color pallet for successfully FULLY upgrading a mod
Imagine how that would by default negate issue of ppl not knowing how to upgrade mods since they would google it
Or a potato or forma or whatever rewards are best teachers

But then we would need proper placement of that info on how to upgrade mod if google should not be option

But i bet there would still be ppl who would just fail it

[Aldain]

This is not where I saw this topic going.

...But boy does it depress me.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, ZeroX4 said:

But what i would think of a solution would be rewards for doing X thing

See, that's the point; each stage of the quest would contain things you can keep, and the end of the quest would have a reward just like the rest of the quests do.

Heck, we could put in the Blueprint for building a new Sentinel in there, instead of having to buy it from the Market, something like Wyrm or Helios that are good for newer players starting out.

[xombob89]

Im a bit late to this topic but I never understood why some people refuse to google things they dont know in a game? Its pretty much always much much faster than trying to find the info in game, if it even exists in the first place. And usually the info in the wiki pages is much more detailed than it ever would be in-game. Its also faster and more detailed than the chat usually. 

So, to me "Im too lazy to google" sounds like such a weird argument because it takes much more effort to do it any other way usually, even with decent in-game tutorials. At least from my experience 🤔

[mrEkli]

53 minutes ago, xombob89 said:

So, to me "Im too lazy to google" sounds like such a weird argument because it takes much more effort to do it any other way usually, even with decent in-game tutorials. At least from my experience 🤔

There are sources to learn about the game out on the web but things shouldn't require leaving the game, even for the Steam Overlay Browser. An example is like Destiny 1's Grimoire, I hated how it was not linked to the game, especially since all the consoles had web browsers.

 

If you don't let people engage the game without exiting the game, you lose some the engagement and excitement.

[ZeroX4]

1 hour ago, xombob89 said:

Im a bit late to this topic but I never understood why some people refuse to google things they dont know in a game? Its pretty much always much much faster than trying to find the info in game, if it even exists in the first place. And usually the info in the wiki pages is much more detailed than it ever would be in-game. Its also faster and more detailed than the chat usually. 

So, to me "Im too lazy to google" sounds like such a weird argument because it takes much more effort to do it any other way usually, even with decent in-game tutorials. At least from my experience 🤔

I 100% agree there is so much crap about game you play all over internetz that there should be no excuse for ppl to fail to find info they need SOMEWHERE
But remember we are playing warframe not google

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Im a bit late to this topic but I never understood why some people refuse to google things they dont know in a game? Its pretty much always much much faster than trying to find the info in game, if it even exists in the first place. And usually the info in the wiki pages is much more detailed than it ever would be in-game. Its also faster and more detailed than the chat usually. 

So, to me "Im too lazy to google" sounds like such a weird argument because it takes much more effort to do it any other way usually, even with decent in-game tutorials. At least from my experience 🤔

Personally I refrain from inundating myself in too much information if possible. I love that sense of discovery and mystery.

Once I look up how to do a thing or what comes next, that’s information that I’ll never be able to un-see. Regardless of whether I look it up or whether I discover it myself, I’ll end up at the same destination of knowing. One path is a shortcut though, while the other gives me a different experience, and once the potential for that experience is gone, it’s gone for good.

There have been times in other games or movies or stories when I so desperately wanted to selectively forget what happens next so that I can re-experience the feeling. So I’m not so keen on bypassing the “not knowing” when it ensures I’ll never experience that feeling in the first place.

I could potentially agree that some things may need a little more guidance, but I’d be much more in favour of a sort of “small hint just to point player in the right direction and let them figure it out themselves” instead of an exhaustive description of how a thing works

[xombob89]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Personally I refrain from inundating myself in too much information if possible. I love that sense of discovery and mystery.

I can understand that. I dont like spoiling things for myself either, but in a game like warframe theres not all that much to spoil unless you really care about the lore. 

Also, I didnt consider consoles, for them its obviously not as simple to just Google things.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, xombob89 said:

I can understand that. I dont like spoiling things for myself either, but in a game like warframe theres not all that much to spoil unless you really care about the lore. 

Also, I didnt consider consoles, for them its obviously not as simple to just Google things.

Whoah. I completely forgot that I’m using my Switch account to talk (I’ve been playing on PC), but you’re absolutely right. I never thought of that

🤔 Consoles are definitely an extra layer of consideration for me now

edit: argh, consoles. I’m so looking forward to crossplay, but they do add extra challenge to thinking up suggestions sometimes

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Im a bit late to this topic but I never understood why some people refuse to google things they dont know in a game?

It's because most games don't require it....

I just 100% Hades without Having to Google anything... 

Funny enough...  Fighting Games actually do require this level of Research🤔...

10 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Its pretty much always much much faster than trying to find the info in game, if it even exists in the first place.

Well... Sure... But most people want to enjoy their Time with a game... Bum Rushing Through it kinda goes against that...

10 hours ago, xombob89 said:

So, to me "Im too lazy to google" sounds like such a weird argument because it takes much more effort to do it any other way usually, even with decent in-game tutorials. At least from my experience 🤔

It's Because Googling how something works is something I usually only do if I'm trying to learn How a Piece of Software works or a new Programming Language... I don't want to have to do College like Research just to play a damn Video Game 😭 !!!

 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

To the question of; “why don’t players just Google things,”

This has actually been discussed quite a bit, but really it just comes down to your types of players. There’s a lot of ways to categorise players, but the main ones are;

Slayer

Explorer

Social

Slayers are your typical pvp players, however, they are also the min Max types. The kind that want to be the best to be better than other people. They need to win, to be good at something, and just want to chase power. Power. Power.

The explorer just wants to do that, explore. To find cool things, the wander, find secrets, find things no one has before, etc.

Then, there’s social. These are the kind of gamers that will mainly play whatever their friends play, or stick to games with a strong community focus. The social gamers tend to blend in with slayers and explorers, but the distinction comes in with how they spend most of their time, and that’s usually with friends.

 

Okay, I had to explain that to explain this;

Slayers will Google everything. Immediately. They need to learn so they can be stronger and be the best and do it all themselves.

But explorers? If they have to Google something that takes all the fun out of it for them. They want to figure it out, put the pieces together and feel like it was them who solved the puzzle.

My point is, there’s a lot of different things people look for in a game, and when we discuss them we often forget this.

An explorer will resort to googling something as a last resort, A slayer will Google something immediately.

Tutorials don’t really do much to help any of these groups. Slayers hate them because they are too easy. Explorers hate them because they are being spoon fed.

Psychology is a huge part of gaming, despite how little we actually understand about it. But one of the few things we have learned, is that most tutorials have very little impact on players.

All of that information is available online, if you want raw sources use Google scholar and check how many times a study has been peer reviewed.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's not the Difficulty that Discourages Experimenting... It's the Economy and the Community...

What economy is stopping you from experimenting? And how is the community stopping you?

 

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What economy is stopping you from experimenting? And how is the community stopping you?

 

Discouraging.... Not Stopping....

In case you didn't Notice... You can't Experiment if you don't have Resources.... Want a Try a new Frame ? No Slots.. too Bad...  No new Frame for you....

In the case of the Community Discouraging Experimenting it's all about Efficiency.... Even if your Team Mates don't say anything sometimes you can't help but feel your Holding Everybody else back by trying something new.... Atleast a normal person would.... See this video for Reference:

 

 

[Surbusken]

You can argue the "consolized" generation are used to have waypointer markers holding their hands, which warframe has too, and so on.

At the same time, it's an mmo. What's really the difference between reading text on the wiki or reading text in-game: it's assumed you are aware of and willing to spend time getting up to speed.

Plus part of the charm is playing it how you want or don't want, where it's kind of up to the player how involved they want to be.

Lastly it's always a question of "suggestion x vs new content" - would you still be okay with a revamped tutorial if you have to wait 7 months with no new content?

I feel that is their mindset with going back and working on broken frames they are "not new", as in not selling anymore, versus adding a brand new frame that will sell just by virtue of being new.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

At the same time, it's an mmo. What's really the difference between reading text on the wiki or reading text in-game: it's assumed you are aware of and willing to spend time getting up to speed

The difference is the Text in game can be placed where it's most Relevant instead of Buried deep inside of an entire Wiki Entry....

Not that I ever see DE doing this but that's one advantage of putting it directly in the game.

3 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

Plus part of the charm is playing it how you want or don't want, where it's kind of up to the player how involved they want to be

Yeah Tell that to all the times I failed Missions because I dared to use a Warframe I enjoyed rather than one that would actually work 😭 !!!

5 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

Lastly it's always a question of "suggestion x vs new content" - would you still be okay with a revamped tutorial if you have to wait 7 months with no new content?

That's literally what I've been. asking for these past 3 Years 😝.... I genuinely don't look forward to any single one of Warframe's Updates... They are just just Pallete Swapped Versions of Plains Of Eidolon....

You know when I had the most fun playing this game ? When Season 1 of Nightwave ended and we got only a single update for that whole year.... That was awesome and I wish it would happen more often.

9 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

I feel that is their mindset with going back and working on broken frames they are "not new", as in not selling anymore, versus adding a brand new frame that will sell just by virtue of being new

Sad but True 😥 !!!

 

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

In the case of the Community Discouraging Experimenting it's all about Efficiency.... Even if your Team Mates don't say anything sometimes you can't help but feel your Holding Everybody else back by trying something new.... Atleast a normal person would....

Well...that's not entirely the community's fault, the game design also winds up leaning into it too once you get past unga-bungaing through the base star chart.

That's the issue where the multiplier bloat I mentioned earlier in the thread comes in, there's only one practical solution, sure more niche builds can work, but the game design at large isn't built for that, number crunchers have already "solved" the game as it were, and yeah some people avoid outside sources because they like to do it themselves, but everyone will come to the same endpoint of "Millions of Damage Per Second" at some point.

That's the problem most MMOs (and some stat based RPGs) run into imo, no matter how much variety one tries to design for, there's always going to be that one "solution" hanging over everyone's head, the end of the horizon where there's no road forward anymore. Warframe's problem is that nothing can exist beyond the damage singularity as it were, once you can nuke entire tilesets endlessly for hours there's nowhere left for the gameplay to go.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Well...that's not entirely the community's fault, the game design also winds up leaning into it too once you get past unga-bungaing through the base star chart

Pretty Much...

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

That's the issue where the multiplier bloat I mentioned earlier in the thread comes in, there's only one practical solution, sure more niche builds can work, but the game design at large isn't built for that, number crunchers have already "solved" the game as it were, and yeah some people avoid outside sources because they like to do it themselves, but everyone will come to the same endpoint of "Millions of Damage Per Second" at some point.

I doubt I would... I would just keep failing because I'm desperate to play my own way...

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

That's the problem most MMOs (and some stat based RPGs) run into imo, no matter how much variety one tries to design for, there's always going to be that one "solution" hanging over everyone's head, the end of the horizon where there's no road forward anymore. Warframe's problem is that nothing can exist beyond the damage singularity as it were, once you can nuke entire tilesets endlessly for hours there's nowhere left for the gameplay to go.

Well... Yes.... However we normally do that in the Name of Efficiency... In my case once I have the Goodies I revert back to my preferred playstyle...everyone else on the Other Hand just stop playing because The there's no more Carrot to Chase 😱 !! 

[mrEkli]

Man, I hate the whole Efficiency chase but I can't argue against it. There's no reason to waste time by limiting yourself in a game like this. 

[Cenyn]

Apologies, I haven't read all five pages, what follows is just my perspective (MR 30, if it matters).

I spend a lot of my ingame time in Q&A due to burnout, and yes I think real, actual tutorials would help a great deal. Simple things such as the game guiding you through your first lich, eidolon hunt, farming your first new frame, etc.

I'd love to see DE have an ingame damage guide actually relevant to the current balance. Explain things like the diminishing returns on pairing Condition Overload with Pressure Point (or just bar us from doing it), how status chance over 100% is, in fact, desirable, or how slash bleed damage is unaffected by slash mods.

Q&A can take up a great deal of this slack, yes; but there are cases (Eidolons and liches again) where text will just be a confusing information overload to players new to these systems.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Discouraging.... Not Stopping....

In case you didn't Notice... You can't Experiment if you don't have Resources.... Want a Try a new Frame ? No Slots.. too Bad...  No new Frame for you....

In the case of the Community Discouraging Experimenting it's all about Efficiency.... Even if your Team Mates don't say anything sometimes you can't help but feel your Holding Everybody else back by trying something new.... Atleast a normal person would.... See this video for Reference:

But unlocking new frames isnt experimenting, that is WF's version of progression. The resource economy is as harsh and as forgiving as other games if you dum-dum early on and waste what you get. I had a friend in GW2 that wasted all his gold for instance so he could get new rares or exotics each 5 levels. This resulted in him selling all his materials aswell so he was always starved. The rest of us had everything we needed when we hit endgame. It was the same when we played SWToR and ESO with him, he wasted materials and gold on crap as he leveled.

There is solo play for WF though, which is just as easy as in groups, which means if you think you hold a group back then there are more issues than you experimenting. Only very specific content needs people to pull their weight, and even in that people can get carried by a single player.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, (NSW)mrEkli said:

Man, I hate the whole Efficiency chase but I can't argue against it. There's no reason to waste time by limiting yourself in a game like this. 

It’s pretty hard to shoot down, isn’t it? And I mean that; some discussions I’ve had, oof.

We gotta not waste time in a videogame, it’s only logical after all

edit: I mean, trying to argue against it to myself was hard enough.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But unlocking new frames isnt experimenting, that is WF's version of progression.

It is Experimenting... 🤔....

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I had a friend in GW2 that wasted all his gold for instance so he could get new rares or exotics each 5 levels. This resulted in him selling all his materials aswell so he was always starved. The rest of us had everything we needed when we hit endgame. It was the same when we played SWToR and ESO with him, he wasted materials and gold on crap as he leveled

I haven't played any of those ¯\_(ツ)_/¯...

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is solo play for WF though, which is just as easy as in groups, which means if you think you hold a group back then there are more issues than you experimenting. Only very specific content needs people to pull their weight, and even in that people can get carried by a single player.

The problem is some people want to play with others despite their Insecurities.... Human Beans are Funny That way.. 😝

 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Discouraging.... Not Stopping....

In case you didn't Notice... You can't Experiment if you don't have Resources.... Want a Try a new Frame ? No Slots.. too Bad...  No new Frame for you....

In the case of the Community Discouraging Experimenting it's all about Efficiency.... Even if your Team Mates don't say anything sometimes you can't help but feel your Holding Everybody else back by trying something new.... Atleast a normal person would.... See this video for Reference:

 

 

Great video. I understand that sentiment even though I've played video games for decades.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It is Experimenting... 🤔....

The problem is some people want to play with others despite their Insecurities.... Human Beans are Funny That way.. 😝

How is that experimenting?

Sure, that is a human issue. So what exactly makes it a limitation based in the game? That applies to all games and that cannot be fixed, since as you say it is a human issue, based in insecurity etc. Nothing will ever be able to fix that. It is like "bad connection", it will never be fixed because DE cant fix human nature, which in todays society is SJWing, being a hipster, drinking mango-seed-frapiato-tea-with-grassmilk and using unreliable wi-fi connections in home or at hotspots while complaining about everything.