CrimsonXX Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 11 hours ago, 73yearsold said: Go touch grass lmao ROFL, funny being on the other side of that; though I'd say that I'm not the one that needs to do that vs. the one trying to jump onboard with tryhards in pushing the tryhard b.s. To go with another outdated cliche: Try crawling out of your basement and getting some sun, then again if you're like any of the others in that category any amount of the sun would likely burn you. Meanwhile I can and do go out and enjoy myself as much as safely possible with the whole Covid threat. Just ftr if you thought this would be some kind of shutdown I can only laugh 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 On 2021-10-04 at 2:54 AM, (XBOX)General Poke said: So yeah, bad parkour and bad aim could fail the mission. I want that element of risk Then just Abort the mission everytime you fall... If you don't have the Discipline to stick to that rule then you obviously don't want it that badly. On 2021-10-04 at 2:54 AM, (XBOX)General Poke said: Why was that taken away? I still don't understand why self-damage was switched off. Tenno.... We never had Self Damage in the first place... What we had before was Self Annihilation 😱 !!! Self Damage would actually be nice if I'm being honest... 5 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Case in point: as with most other proponents of self-damage, you are overly focused on aggrandizing yourself at the expense of others, particularly those who disagree with you. You believe yourself to be one of the chosen few to truly know what it is to be skilled in Warframe, and anyone who opposes self-damage must only be doing so because they themselves are unskilled. As a result, you have locked yourself in an ivory tower of your own making, where you lament how distant Warframe and its playerbase have become from you, all while failing to realize that you are the one creating that distance in the first place. That's Deep 😲 !!! 5 hours ago, Teridax68 said: By your own admission, the Bramma was dominant before even the removal of self-damage, despite what the above post suggests. How then was it a balancing factor? If not even one-shot damage was enough to rein it in, what would be? Losing all of your revives in one go? That's probably what it would take... In any case I already had a Decent Solution to the Bramma back when Self Damage was a thing.... So I definitely would have kept using it.... If I liked it.... 😁 5 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Relative positioning to teammates isn't a "basic principle" in Warframe, unless you're talking about staying within Affinity range. You would perhaps know this by playing Warframe, but players bounce across the map at high speeds, each doing their own thing. A player could appear in front of another at any time, particularly as the game intentionally tries to funnel players around the same general zones within a tileset or larger map, and that is not an exercise or fault in positioning skill. In my case My Own Specter has a tendency to suddenly Appear right in front of me from time to time.... So even when Playing Solo it's still a problem.... 😱 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 7, 2021 Share Posted October 7, 2021 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: You literally tried to blame the players still immediately after that part of your quote: I'm making it clear I did not say it is ALWAYS their fault as you stated. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Strangely, your edited version of that quote seems to have omitted that part. You really should think twice about lying when you can be quoted on-demand. See above why the purpose of the quote. Shooting a rock or jagged wall, or a tree ie "jagged level geometry" and getting blown up is as a result is the player's error - something within the control of the player, unlike ping or poor collision mapping. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: What is disingenous is you insisting maps weren't cramped when they not only were, but were infamous for it, the old Corpus Ship tileset in particular. What is disingenuous is you picking the Defense tile for the old tileset, its least characteristic tile and still one full of cramped spaces, as its illustrative example. Your claim was: On 2021-10-05 at 2:24 PM, Teridax68 said: This game's initial tilesets are all cramped and had players fight the majority of the time in close combat, which is still largely the case It took me 20 seconds to find a video that showed you were wrong. You still ignore the first mission in the video that is not a Defense map that also shows you were wrong. I told you in one of my first replies to you, you exaggerate far too much, but here you are, still doing it, while ignoring evidence proving you wrong and it is making you look the deceitful fool. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: As per the above, I suggested to balance explosive weapons around a slow rate of fire. This necessarily implies that if reducing a weapon's rate of fire were to nerf it unduly, it should receive buffs that should counterbalance at least that, if not bring the weapon up to par if it is currently underperforming. If the only way you can attack my position is to straw man it, ask yourself if your own position is really that stable. You suggest a slower fire rate. We've gone through this. It does not stop players from shooting their feet. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: "Trust me bro" isn't exactly a valid argument. Having played Warframe for a multiple of the time you have (you don't seem to have yet spent a night in the Plains of Eidolon, nor even maxed out a whole bunch of explosive weapons you are asking me to brush up on), I am aware of these weapons and how powerful they actually are, which is to say no more than the average weapon, save for a few notable exceptions. A poor attempt at deflection. I am MR26 and I've completed many Tridolon hunts, but even if I was only MR10 and had never completed a Tridolon hunt, it wouldn't make a difference to the actual, objective maths used to shown how powerful even the MR5 Tonkor and Kulstar is. One doesn't need to max Kuva weapons to get excellent performance out of them - maxing is mainly done for MR. Focus on the topic of discussion at hand. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, so a few things: Your selected builds are really obviously stilted, such as using a faction mod and Creeping Bullseye to artificially inflate the damage per shot. The very site you are using lists the Tonkor and the Kulstar as C-tier. Notably, the strongest secondaries for a while have been beam weapons, specifically the Kuva Nukor. Piling on mods and conditional does very little to support the presumed overpoweredness of these weapons, because guess what, those mods can be slotted on every other weapon too. The only thing you have managed to achieve with the above is that a) we deal crazy damage numbers in Warframe in general, and b) paper DPS itself remains a noob trap that the very site enabling it actively contradicts via a separate classification system. In fact, the resource you've listed gives a pretty damning indictment of explosive weapons, as only a minority among them rise above mediocrity. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Ironically, you did put forth facts, just not the ones you expected. It seems the very site you linked provided a tier list that agrees entirely with what I've been saying so far, and overlaps pretty well with Warframe's own official stats to boot. Whoops. Tier placement on Overframe is based on player votes, ie another popularity contest. You sure like clinging to those, don't you? Popularity doesn't equal strength. I've shown this with good 'ol maths. There is no artificial inflation. If I wanted to artificially inflate, I'd have put Galvanized Crosshairs on the Kulstar, which, given its fire pattern with multishot, would not be very practical in actual missions. I could have been disingenuous and used godroll rivens as well, but I'm not you. I've objectively shown how strong these explosive weapons are with good 'ol maths using non-riven mods that are practical in actual missions. Go ahead and slap Creeping Bullseye and faction mods onto the more popular weapons I mentioned. Be honest: You already did, didn't you? You already tried to use maths to back your claims and saw the weapons I told you to compare, the weapons you thought we more powerful because they are more popular, didn't compare well, did they? After seeing how wrong you were, you decided to look up my profile in a foolish attempt to deflect, didn't you? Pathetic. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Hitscan weapons with a spread of shots, such as shotguns, still hit at the center, as you would know if you had ever hit a target with the center shot. When a weapon has less than 100% accuracy, the "spread" of where their shot will land is random, and therefore by definition impossible to predict. My best recommendation is that you drop this, as your attempts to argue on semantics here are embarrassing and do not particularly support your stance on explosive self-damage. From that article: " Accuracy also affects Multishot characteristics. In the case of hitscan weapons, the lower the weapon's accuracy, the more likely that every pellet generated from multishot will deviate from the trajectory of the main pellet." So what does this mean in practical play? It means that a player using a hitscan shotgun predicts how far the additional pellets will deviate from the main pellet, based on the spread and distance from the target - the further the target, the greater the distance of deviation. That's why good players aim for the body (a bigger target), instead of the head (a much smaller target) when aiming to more distant targets with a hitscan shotgun that has a lot of spread: They accurately predict more damage will be done with the shot, since far more pellets are likely to hit the bigger target than the smaller target, even with hitscan. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Relative positioning to teammates isn't a "basic principle" in Warframe, unless you're talking about staying within Affinity range. You would perhaps know this by playing Warframe, but players bounce across the map at high speeds, each doing their own thing. A player could appear in front of another at any time, particularly as the game intentionally tries to funnel players around the same general zones within a tileset or larger map, and that is not an exercise or fault in positioning skill. You are, at best, improperly applying principles from other video games that evidently do not apply to Warframe, and at worst simply inventing excuses out of thin air, as you have done before. Relative positioning is a basic principle incorporated to achieve effective and efficient play in any game where the mechanic of one's shot being bodyblocked by an ally is applicable, which includes Warframe. It is that simple. Your view explains why players like you probably killed themselves far more often when self-damage was a mechanic, than players like me: You aren't aware of the value good relative positioning has. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: This is a strangely bitter and personal diatribe coming from someone who hasn't actually seen me play. Not only did I not argue against self-damage from personal experience, even if I had, you have never actually witnessed me playing the game, given that we haven't yet played in the same mission. You are inventing the excuse that I am arguing from lack of skill not because that is the case (you couldn't even know even if it was), but because like the small handful of people arguing the same tired old points around this, this isn't actually about self-damage, this is about you desperately trying to feel superior to others in whichever way you can. This is why you lash out at my perceived lack of skill as you start to lose the argument more and more badly, and why you are unable to acknowledge the validity of opinions other than your own. I don't need to see someone play to understand their grievance(s) or the area(s) in which they are lacking, eg if a player makes a thread stating "SP units on Earth are too tanky - it takes me ages (15 seconds) to kill one of them", I already know they feel that way, because they are using underpowered equipment, and/or modding incorrectly, and/or using ineffective tactics etc. - no one using properly modded gear and proper tactics will complain it takes ages to kill SP units on Earth. So I give tips that address those areas and help them out. They can choose to use the information provided and improve their effectiveness, or they can be stubborn, ignore the advice and continue to struggle and foolishly proclaim these units can't be killed quickly at all. In the same way, I don't need to see you play, plus, I've already seen your arguments against self-damage, stating reasons such as "jagged level geometry" and a clear under-appreciation regarding the value of even decent situational awareness, target selection and relative positioning. You can heed my advice and improve, or be stubborn. My tone is a reflection of yours, which is a shame, but you reap what you sow. You are welcome nonetheless. 17 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Actually, I think allowing shots to pass through teammates would be a great idea for Warframe. Given how stupid it is to assume that players should "skill-check" themselves in a pub game by somehow trying to never find themselves in any other player's line of fire at any given moment (remind me how they do this, exactly?), having players simply not step on each others' toes in this manner would make combat flow much more smoothly, and reduce instances of players accidentally inconveniencing one another. Good suggestion! Some people prefer certain physics not being in games, enabling them to do things such as being able to shoot through allies, or, clip through terrain being able to drive(clip) through other cars in racing games due to lack of proper collision physics. Looks stupid, dumbs down the game and decreases immersion, but to each his own. I await you using objective maths to back your claims regarding explosive weapons like the Tonkor and Kulstar being so much weaker than the more popular weapons I've listed. Weapons you claim are more powerful, foolishly using the metric of popularity to asses relative power. Despite awaiting this, I expect you to deflect, ignore and/or continue to be deceptive, as you did regarding all maps being cramped, even in the face of video evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: I'm making it clear I did not say it is ALWAYS their fault as you stated. As per your own quote, you plainly stated the opposite. Furthermore, you argued players should be punished even in a buggy environment, which you expect to be fixed comprehensively later on at some unspecified time. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: See above why the purpose of the quote. Shooting a rock or jagged wall, or a tree ie "jagged level geometry" and getting blown up is as a result is the player's error - something within the control of the player, unlike ping or poor collision mapping. Okay, so by your own admission, you are in fact trying to blame players for the game's own design faults. The editing on your quote was visibly because you didn't think it would be retrieved to show you contradicting yourself now. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: Your claim was: It took me 20 seconds to find a video that showed you were wrong. You still ignore the first mission in the video that is not a Defense map that also shows you were wrong. I told you in one of my first replies to you, you exaggerate far too much, but here you are, still doing it, while ignoring evidence proving you wrong and it is making you look the deceitful fool. It took you 20 seconds to find a video showing the least characteristic tile in a notoriously cramped tileset, in a mission that does not involve navigating outside of that one tile. Your video evidence is itself proof of the bad-faith approach you have taken to this argument. By contrast, here is a complete archive of the tileset which shows just how cramped it was. This similarly took me 20 seconds to find. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: You suggest a slower fire rate. We've gone through this. It does not stop players from shooting their feet. That's your own problem, though. I don't care whether or not it stops players from shooting their feet; if that's what catches the most enemies in a given shot, that is the optimal shot to take. If you really want to punish people for shooting close to themselves, consider proposing to implement minimum arming distances on explosive shots, which has been implemented on several weapons already and also mostly prevents self-damage/staggers anyway. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: A poor attempt at deflection. I am MR26 and I've completed many Tridolon hunts, but even if I was only MR10 and had never completed a Tridolon hunt, it wouldn't make a difference to the actual, objective maths used to shown how powerful even the MR5 Tonkor and Kulstar is. One doesn't need to max Kuva weapons to get excellent performance out of them - maxing is mainly done for MR. Focus on the topic of discussion at hand. How exactly is countering your claims head-on "deflection"? You claimed to have evidence supporting your claims; you do not. You claim that I lack the experience to comment on explosive weapons; I have significantly more experience than you do, and on top of that you visibly lack crucial experience with the very weapons you are commenting on. It is you who are deflecting right now by making excuses for having been called out on your false and misleading claims. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: Tier placement on Overframe is based on player votes, ie another popularity contest. You sure like clinging to those, don't you? Popularity doesn't equal strength. I've shown this with good 'ol maths. It seems the issue is more that you have an aversion to anyone else's opinion but your own, and can't seem to make the correlation between weapon choice across massive samples and the power of said weapons. Given that these players have the tools on that same site to check the paper DPS of those weapons, it stands to reason that these players know what they're talking about because, unlike you, they acknowledge the difference between paper DPS (particularly on intentionally stilted builds) and actual usage of those weapons, and have come to different conclusions from your own. Your maths, as pointed out, are severely flawed and do not reflect those weapons' performance in-game. Even in the unlikely event that the entire playerbase is in fact as incompetent as you claim they are and is sleeping on some hidden OP explosive weapons, it doesn't particularly matter, given that those weapons have remained somehow undiscovered for years, and the most overused weapons aren't the ones you want. You claim to use maths, yet you have shown not only a lack of understanding of the entire field of statistics, but an aversion to it. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: There is no artificial inflation. If I wanted to artificially inflate, I'd have put Galvanized Crosshairs on the Kulstar, which, given its fire pattern with multishot, would not be very practical in actual missions. I could have been disingenuous and used godroll rivens as well, but I'm not you. I've objectively shown how strong these explosive weapons are with good 'ol maths using non-riven mods that are practical in actual missions. Go ahead and slap Creeping Bullseye and faction mods onto the more popular weapons I mentioned. Except those mods aren't practical outside of specific situations, hence the artificial inflation. Similarly, your math relies on the assumption of max Viral procs (those are among the conditionals), which given the nature of these weapons somewhat counters the point. Not only are you plainly trying to deny obvious issues with your paper DPS calculations, you seem unaware of their issues. Again, you go and equip those mod setups on those weapons and come back to me on their performance. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: Be honest: You already did, didn't you? You already tried to use maths to back your claims and saw the weapons I told you to compare, the weapons you thought we more powerful because they are more popular, didn't compare well, did they? After seeing how wrong you were, you decided to look up my profile in a foolish attempt to deflect, didn't you? Pathetic. Oo, someone's mad. To start, I checked your profile because you were making claims that nobody with that stated level of experience or knowledge with the game would make in good faith, which is why I did my research and debunked them. It is no surprise then that someone with such gaps in their experience as you would still hold blind faith in paper DPS. I similarly invite you to do the comparisons on more popular weapons not just on Overframe, but actually in-game. The fact that you insist on looking at artificially inflated numbers over mass player choice and in-game experience shows just how far removed anything you're saying is to the actual game. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: From that article: " Accuracy also affects Multishot characteristics. In the case of hitscan weapons, the lower the weapon's accuracy, the more likely that every pellet generated from multishot will deviate from the trajectory of the main pellet." I suggest you read that bit again, specifically the part where it says "generated from multishot". Similarly, had you read the article property, you would have seen this part: "Shotguns, as well as any hitscan-based weapons with multishot mods, fire at least one of their pellets close to if not directly centered on the reticle, with all other pellets taking random trajectories within the spread cone." Please, for your own sake, start doing your own research, as one can only spoon-feed information so much. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: So what does this mean in practical play? It means that a player using a hitscan shotgun predicts how far the additional pellets will deviate from the main pellet, based on the spread and distance from the target - the further the target, the greater the distance of deviation. That's why good players aim for the body (a bigger target), instead of the head (a much smaller target) when aiming to more distant targets with a hitscan shotgun that has a lot of spread: They accurately predict more damage will be done with the shot, since far more pellets are likely to hit the bigger target than the smaller target, even with hitscan. Remind me how the pellets can be predicted when their spread is random? What is even more hilarious is that you are treating a shotgun as if it were a long-distance weapon. You're not going to be predicting a shotgun's spread across distances, particularly given the damage falloff, you're going to get close to your target and shoot them dead-on. Again, this isn't prediction, and you really should play some more Warframe to refresh your memory on this. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: Relative positioning is a basic principle incorporated to achieve effective and efficient play in any game where the mechanic of one's shot being bodyblocked by an ally is applicable, which includes Warframe. It is that simple. Your view explains why players like you probably killed themselves far more often when self-damage was a mechanic, than players like me: You aren't aware of the value good relative positioning has. Okay, relative positioning how? Explain to me the mechanics of how four players in a pub group coordinate chaotic parkour and combat to make sure nobody ever enters another's line of fire. Again, you say a lot of specious and ultimately meaningless things that demonstrate just how divorced your perspective is from how Warframe actually plays. Relative positioning isn't "a basic principle" of Warframe, rapid movement and shooting is. Players enter and exit each others' line of fire all the time, sometimes multiple times a second, and so too fast for players to react if they're shooting explosives (and this if the shot hasn't already started traveling). I'm not the only one to have pointed this out, either. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: I don't need to see someone play to understand their grievance(s) or the area(s) in which they are lacking, eg if a player makes a thread stating "SP units on Earth are too tanky - it takes me ages (15 seconds) to kill one of them", I already know they feel that way, because they are using underpowered equipment, and/or modding incorrectly, and/or using ineffective tactics etc. - no one using properly modded gear and proper tactics will complain it takes ages to kill SP units on Earth. So I give tips that address those areas and help them out. They can choose to use the information provided and improve their effectiveness, or they can be stubborn, ignore the advice and continue to struggle and foolishly proclaim these units can't be killed quickly at all. In the same way, I don't need to see you play, plus, I've already seen your arguments against self-damage, stating reasons such as "jagged level geometry" and a clear under-appreciation regarding the value of even decent situational awareness, target selection and relative positioning. You can heed my advice and improve, or be stubborn. My tone is a reflection of yours, which is a shame, but you reap what you sow. You are welcome nonetheless. You seem to have forgotten that self-damage has ceased to exist in Warframe for quite some time, so I would not be able to make use of your "advice" even if I were in need of it. It is interesting that you would so generously offer this useless advice when I did not in fact make any statement about my personal experience, nor even my personal appreciation of self-damage. I merely pointed out that self-damage is overwhelmingly unpopular in Warframe, and listed examples of how players incurred it through no fault of their own. As we both know, and contrarily to your transparently dishonest bit of deflection here, you're not attacking my skill to help me, you are doing so in a desperate and spiteful attempt at character assassination, and so out of frustration from losing this argument. Meanwhile, I have in fact been giving you advice to do your own research, perhaps start playing the stuff you are talking about, and avoid making dishonest claims or blatant lies that are easy to disprove, such as this quote I'm replying to. If you were to heed that advice, and not so stubbornly keep doubling down on an increasingly ridiculous argumentative position, you'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment. You're welcome. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: Some people prefer certain physics not being in games, enabling them to do things such as being able to shoot through allies, or, clip through terrain being able to drive(clip) through other cars in racing games due to lack of proper collision physics. Looks stupid, dumbs down the game and decreases immersion, but to each his own. Ah yes, in a game where shooting explosives directly into an AI teammate does no damage to them, and where we have magic space powers that let us fly around while invincible and invulnerable, being able to shoot through allies is what would break your immersion. Right. On 2021-10-07 at 12:59 PM, Silligoose said: I await you using objective maths to back your claims regarding explosive weapons like the Tonkor and Kulstar being so much weaker than the more popular weapons I've listed. Weapons you claim are more powerful, foolishly using the metric of popularity to asses relative power. Despite awaiting this, I expect you to deflect, ignore and/or continue to be deceptive, as you did regarding all maps being cramped, even in the face of video evidence. You can wait for as long as your like, the "objective maths" you rely on are anything but objective, and your rejection of far more objective metrics, namely statistics on weapon usage, demonstrates just how poor your grasp of the facts is. At the end of the day, it is nobody else's problem if you insist on holding onto a version of Warframe that no longer exists, and for good reasons you choose to ignore. You can keep doing you and hold onto those delusions, while the rest of us enjoy ourselves in a game without self-damage. I somehow doubt DE would be inclined to reimplement self-damage looking at your feedback here, but from the looks of it, it doesn't even seem like you even want to convince the developers or anyone else that you're right. You just desperately want to feel superior in some respect to your fellow players and, well, good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Objective stats for the 2020 calendar year. https://www.warframe.com/2020stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: As per your own quote, you plainly stated the opposite. Furthermore, you argued players should be punished even in a buggy environment, which you expect to be fixed comprehensively later on at some unspecified time. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, so by your own admission, you are in fact trying to blame players for the game's own design faults. The editing on your quote was visibly because you didn't think it would be retrieved to show you contradicting yourself now. No, i don't expect players to be punished for bugs. I expect bugs to be fixed. We've gone through this. I've stated what constitutes as player mistakes. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: It took you 20 seconds to find a video showing the least characteristic tile in a notoriously cramped tileset, in a mission that does not involve navigating outside of that one tile. Your video evidence is itself proof of the bad-faith approach you have taken to this argument. By contrast, here is a complete archive of the tileset which shows just how cramped it was. This similarly took me 20 seconds to find. Thanks that video is great. I watched a few minutes and open sections can be seen from 3:30 into the video, supporting the video I shared and disproving your claim. Predictably you ignore the Grineer map in the video I shared. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: That's your own problem, though. I don't care whether or not it stops players from shooting their feet; if that's what catches the most enemies in a given shot, that is the optimal shot to take. If you really want to punish people for shooting close to themselves, consider proposing to implement minimum arming distances on explosive shots, which has been implemented on several weapons already and also mostly prevents self-damage/staggers anyway. On 2021-10-04 at 2:53 PM, Silligoose said: however, a mechanic removing the explosion when hitting a teammate would have served game balance much better than total removal of self-damage. It's a game balance issue. I was also the point of discussion. I did suggest such a mechanic already with regards to protecting players if they hit allies. It could have a positive impact on the game relative to the current balancing mechanic that can simply be bypassed, but I'm not as adherent to the coddling mechanics as others. To each his own. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Except those mods aren't practical outside of specific situations, hence the artificial inflation. Similarly, your math relies on the assumption of max Viral procs (those are among the conditionals), which given the nature of these weapons somewhat counters the point. Not only are you plainly trying to deny obvious issues with your paper DPS calculations, you seem unaware of their issues. Again, you go and equip those mod setups on those weapons and come back to me on their performance. Here is the predicted deflection. You tried some builds, saw how wrong you were and here we are, as predicted. On top of that, you are spreading misinformation, again: Max Viral procs are not accounted for in those builds: Kulstar Viral build:https://overframe.gg/build/new/996/kulstar/?bs=WzEsOTk2LDMwLDEsW1szOTUsNSwwXSxbNDE2LDEwLDBdLFs1NTE4LDEwLDBdLFsxNDA3LDEwLDBdLFs0MTMsMTAsMF0sWzQzMyw1LDBdLFs0NDksNSwwXSxbNTUxNywxMCwyXSxbMCwwLDNdLFs1NTA4LDUsMF1dXQ== Kulstar Corrosive build: All I did was swapped out Deep Freeze for Convulsion, thus replacing Viral with Corrosive:https://overframe.gg/build/new/996/kulstar/?bs=WzEsOTk2LDMwLDEsW1szOTUsNSwwXSxbNDE2LDEwLDBdLFs1NTE4LDEwLDBdLFsxNDA3LDEwLDBdLFs0MTMsMTAsMF0sWzQyNiw1LDBdLFs0NDksNSwwXSxbNTUxNywxMCwyXSxbMCwwLDNdLFs1NTA4LDUsMF1dXQ== The damage is the same, because the calculator does not factor in max Viral procs. You have a bad habit of being wrong, because you don't take the time to investigate findings. The other excuse "those mods aren't practical outside of specific situations". That can be said for a lot of mods. Stop deflecting. It is time to admit that just because a weapon is popular, does not mean it is stronger than a less popular weapon, or continue foolishly clinging to your Appeal to Popularity. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Oo, someone's mad. To start, I checked your profile because you were making claims that nobody with that stated level of experience or knowledge with the game would make in good faith, which is why I did my research and debunked them. It is no surprise then that someone with such gaps in their experience as you would still hold blind faith in paper DPS. I similarly invite you to do the comparisons on more popular weapons not just on Overframe, but actually in-game. The fact that you insist on looking at artificially inflated numbers over mass player choice and in-game experience shows just how far removed anything you're saying is to the actual game. Not mad, you are just transparent and predictable. I have done such tests in-game. The only thing you've managed to do is deflect, fail at debunking me, while, with this very recent reply, debunk yourself with regards to all maps being cramped as you claimed. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I suggest you read that bit again, specifically the part where it says "generated from multishot". Similarly, had you read the article property, you would have seen this part: "Shotguns, as well as any hitscan-based weapons with multishot mods, fire at least one of their pellets close to if not directly centered on the reticle, with all other pellets taking random trajectories within the spread cone." Please, for your own sake, start doing your own research, as one can only spoon-feed information so much. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Remind me how the pellets can be predicted when their spread is random? What is even more hilarious is that you are treating a shotgun as if it were a long-distance weapon. You're not going to be predicting a shotgun's spread across distances, particularly given the damage falloff, you're going to get close to your target and shoot them dead-on. Again, this isn't prediction, and you really should play some more Warframe to refresh your memory on this. The spread cone's area of potential contact becomes bigger the further the target and contact zone is from the weapon, so although the pellet contact spot might be random within the cone, the player predicts what percentage of the cone area will bypass the target. The concept of prediction with regards to the use of hitscan weapons, target selection and distance accounts for this very mechanic. If you don't get, then you don't get it. I do predict spread across distances. Many players do, not only in Warframe, but any shooter game with spread mechanics - players don't have to get dead-on close to a target to kill them. Wait a minute, do you actually get "dead-on" close to each target before shooting them with a shotgun? Oh, you really don't get it. Do yourself a favor: Shoot the enemy's body as you close the gap and switch to the head when you are close enough so the spread doesn't cause most of the pellets to miss - as you get used to predicting the distance from which the switch in target (from body to head) becomes more efficient, you'll start to notice you don't need to be dead-on close to the target to kill them at all. So along with deflecting and proving yourself wrong, you've exposed a beginner's level of understanding regarding the use of shotguns in this game. Good job. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, relative positioning how? Explain to me the mechanics of how four players in a pub group coordinate chaotic parkour and combat to make sure nobody ever enters another's line of fire. Again, you say a lot of specious and ultimately meaningless things that demonstrate just how divorced your perspective is from how Warframe actually plays. Relative positioning isn't "a basic principle" of Warframe, rapid movement and shooting is. Players enter and exit each others' line of fire all the time, sometimes multiple times a second, and so too fast for players to react if they're shooting explosives (and this if the shot hasn't already started traveling). I'm not the only one to have pointed this out, either. There you go with your extremes:: A system that punishes players based on human error will inevitably punish players, because of human error. Pretty obvious. Given your admission to only very basic understanding of how to use a shotgun in Warframe, I'll try to keep this fairly simple, Suppose you and your squad enter a room. Enemies to the North, enemies to the East. As you enter, you stop sprinting and continue walking as you charge your Bramma's shot, aiming at the group of enemies to the North. Before releasing, an ally appears right in front of you, walking while shooting, to your North. So what can you do to fire the shot without hitting the ally? Change the relative positioning in a number of ways: Change your aim to the enemies to the East. Relative to you, your ally is now to your left and not in front of you. You can fire safely. Slide forward past your ally. Relative to you, your ally will no longer be ahead of you, but behind you (this would be the beginner's way to clear line of fire) Slide to the left or right. Relative to you, your ally will no longer be in front of you, but at an angle to your left or right, out of your line of fire. You can bullet jump up. Relative to you, your ally is now below you, out of your line of fire. Bullet jump to the left or right. Relative to you, your ally is not only below you, but to your left or right, out of your line of fire. So from here, extrapolate what you could have done in order for your ally to not even have been in your line of fire in the first place: Upon entering the room and seeing the enemies, slide forward while drawing your bow, causing you to maintain faster forward movement for slightly longer. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases. Upon entering the room, move left or right as you draw the bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases. Upon entering the room, slide at an angle left or right as you draw the bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases more. Upon entering the room, bullet jump at an angle forward and to the left or right as you draw your bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases dramatically. Those are some of the basics with regards to relative positioning. There's more you can do, but these are enough. Incorporate situational awareness, knowing more or less where your allies are on the map, how far behind you they are etc, and you'll be able to be even safer. Select the right targets based on ally weaponry and observed tactics. Those are the basics. They are not hard and countless players employ them unconsciously every day in various co-op games. Employ them, get used to them and you won't need things like Primed Sure Footed or Status Immunity to use explosive weapons. 7 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Ah yes, in a game where shooting explosives directly into an AI teammate does no damage to them, and where we have magic space powers that let us fly around while invincible and invulnerable, being able to shoot through allies is what would break your immersion. Right. Look up "suspension of disbelief". It relates to the willingness of a subject/viewer/player to avoid critical thinking for the sake of enjoying a work of fiction, such as a game. That suspension of disbelief has limits: Players can immerse themselves in the game by being willing to accept certain rules within the game, such as being able to wield magic, or slay dragons with a little sword, or fly, or use magic space powers, however, if very obvious laws of physics keeps being broken, that suspension of disbelief becomes less effective. Ever play a game in which the physics weren't coded properly? Where the walking animation made it look like the controlled unit is skating, or floating, instead of walking? Ever played a game in which the mapping wasn't done properly and the player controlled unit's legs constantly clipped through the floor, or the player controlled unit "punches" an enemy but clips straight through them instead? Games that don't adhere to everyday real-life physics we are used to in the real world, tend to test that suspension of disbelief too greatly, breaking immersion. The more these relatable, everyday laws of physics get broken, the less immersive a game becomes. Like I said, to each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: Objective stats for the 2020 calendar year. https://www.warframe.com/2020stats I believe Teridax68 already posted this. What is your purpose for posting this? What do you believe these stats show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Big Roy 324 Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Thought I should add. Was playing a pub mission with the xoris. Got staggered twice in a row throwing that thing at an enemy a whole room away. But managed to hit teammates in the back twice as they bullet jumped past me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: I believe Teridax68 already posted this. What is your purpose for posting this? What do you believe these stats show? I was just trying to help help the thread by breaking up the back-and-forth arguing between you and them. I wasn't following your conversation, but I could sense a certain tension. If I was to take your side of the argument, I would say DE should add a game mode that has self-damage and friendly-fire disabled for the extra challenge. If I was to take Teridax's side, I would say self-damage fall-damage friendly-fire have no place in the power/fantasy game that DE has imagined for us. I believe these stats show that players love explodie guns, bazookas, bows that shoot bazookas, and melee weapons that may or may not be bazookas. In fact the only reason I miss self-damage is because it made it easy to power-up Iron Skin and Vex Armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 48 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said: I was just trying to help help the thread by breaking up the back-and-forth arguing between you and them. I wasn't following your conversation, but I could sense a certain tension. If I was to take your side of the argument, I would say DE should add a game mode that has self-damage and friendly-fire disabled for the extra challenge. If I was to take Teridax's side, I would say self-damage fall-damage friendly-fire have no place in the power/fantasy game that DE has imagined for us. I believe these stats show that players love explodie guns, bazookas, bows that shoot bazookas, and melee weapons that may or may not be bazookas. In fact the only reason I miss self-damage is because it made it easy to power-up Iron Skin and Vex Armor Yeah the conversation between myself and Teridax took an unnecessary turn and tone, but it'll come to an end soon. Personally of course, I prefer friendly fire disabled and I believe self-damage helped as a balancing mechanic when it was in-game, though it could have had more forgiving mechanics accounting for things beyond a player's control. I suppose even self-stagger could've served as a balancing mechanic, had self-stagger not been rendered effectively moot by status immunity or something like Primed Sure Footed. Edit: Looking at the community feedback over the years, it seems there are two distinct camps - one camp embraces the power-fantasy aspect and isn't too concerned with balance, whilst the other camp misses the more balanced and challenging nature of Warframe as experienced in early-to-midgame (depending on how one progressed through the game). Not quite as black and white as that, but I hope you understand my meaning. I believe it would be great for community sentiment if an optional mode was introduced that addresses some balancing- and lack-of-challenge issues and I've been thinking on some ways to implement it. Might even go so far as to create a thread in Feedback and see it pile up with the myriads of similar threads. Might make a small impact as a collective one day - I'm an optimist. Someone in the thread mentioned the official reason for the removal was to stop Chroma's from doing that. I agree that's what the stats show - how popular certain frames/weapons are compared to others. Teridax believes the higher something is on that list, the more powerful it is, but let me not drag you into that. It is what it is. Thanks for trying to be helpful and your input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Anise_ Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 On 2021-10-04 at 1:54 AM, (XBOX)General Poke said: When falling into a chasm or lava, whatever, I think it should take a life there are some places in game that count as having "fallen" out of bounds that have no business being considered out of bounds, so for that reason I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: No, i don't expect players to be punished for bugs. I expect bugs to be fixed. We've gone through this. I've stated what constitutes as player mistakes. Your position so far has been to demand the reinstatement of self-damage before even considering the fixing of all the bugs that would cause players to inflict self-damage through no fault of their own. You are thus expecting players to be punished for bugs. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Thanks that video is great. I watched a few minutes and open sections can be seen from 3:30 into the video, supporting the video I shared and disproving your claim. Predictably you ignore the Grineer map in the video I shared. So what you are admitting is that it took you a significant amount of dredging through the video to find even one sort-of open area. The area in 3:30 is, by the way, the same Defense tile you shared, which you somehow appear not to have recognized, and the video shows the many cramped spaces around its main zone too. Grineer maps have a similar problem even if they are not as cramped as the old Corpus Ship, and the Kuva Fortress tileset in particular is known for its tight corridors and tiny indoor areas. At this point, I cannot help but question your experience with tilesets that exist in the present game, let alone defunct ones from the game's creation. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: It's a game balance issue. I was also the point of discussion. Wait, why is players shooting at their feet a balance issue? Balance is about the relative power of different competing game elements, not about the way gameplay is conceived. If you don't like players shooting at their feet, that's a design issue. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: I did suggest such a mechanic already with regards to protecting players if they hit allies. So, effectively, you suggested something entirely different for an entirely different context, which would in no way make it the same mechanic as what was just proposed. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: It could have a positive impact on the game relative to the current balancing mechanic that can simply be bypassed, but I'm not as adherent to the coddling mechanics as others. To each his own. In other words, it's really the punishment you're after. I am thankful actual game designers prefer not to base their design philosophy on spite. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Here is the predicted deflection. You tried some builds, saw how wrong you were and here we are, as predicted. On top of that, you are spreading misinformation, again: Max Viral procs are not accounted for in those builds: Kulstar Viral build:https://overframe.gg/build/new/996/kulstar/?bs=WzEsOTk2LDMwLDEsW1szOTUsNSwwXSxbNDE2LDEwLDBdLFs1NTE4LDEwLDBdLFsxNDA3LDEwLDBdLFs0MTMsMTAsMF0sWzQzMyw1LDBdLFs0NDksNSwwXSxbNTUxNywxMCwyXSxbMCwwLDNdLFs1NTA4LDUsMF1dXQ== Kulstar Corrosive build: All I did was swapped out Deep Freeze for Convulsion, thus replacing Viral with Corrosive:https://overframe.gg/build/new/996/kulstar/?bs=WzEsOTk2LDMwLDEsW1szOTUsNSwwXSxbNDE2LDEwLDBdLFs1NTE4LDEwLDBdLFsxNDA3LDEwLDBdLFs0MTMsMTAsMF0sWzQyNiw1LDBdLFs0NDksNSwwXSxbNTUxNywxMCwyXSxbMCwwLDNdLFs1NTA4LDUsMF1dXQ== The damage is the same, because the calculator does not factor in max Viral procs. You have a bad habit of being wrong, because you don't take the time to investigate findings. ... Corrosive procs also amplify your damage. Not only is your "math" spurious, you appear to lack elementary knowledge of the systems you are working with, save for how to design unrealistic mod setups that inflate your paper DPS. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: The other excuse "those mods aren't practical outside of specific situations". That can be said for a lot of mods. Stop deflecting. Yes, the same can be said for many mods... which is why they're rarely if ever used, let alone included in functional mod setups. I don't think you really understand your own argument. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: It is time to admit that just because a weapon is popular, does not mean it is stronger than a less popular weapon, or continue foolishly clinging to your Appeal to Popularity. So the interesting thing here is that you're accusing me of deflection, when all of the above has been you deflecting valid criticism of both paper DPS and your attempts to abuse it for the purposes of an internet argument, and so through purely rehashed arguments. You have no argument against the validity of actual usage statistics other than to dismiss them out of hand, much less a valid reason why people should trust paper DPS instead when they clearly show that weapons that are overpowered to you are quite mediocre in practice (and notice how you rely purely on theoreticals instead of actually demonstrating the Kulstar and Tonkor's relative power in-game compared to frontrunners). Not only are you the one deflecting here, you are projecting to an absurd degree. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Not mad, you are just transparent and predictable. So still mad, then. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: I have done such tests in-game. Have you? Do you have any evidence for this? Because so far, you're trying to tell me that I should ignore my own in-game experience, ignore widely-accepted tier-lists corroborating my experience and the frequencies of weapon usage I've seen, ignore official game data corroborating all of that, all to trust a DPS calculator online on the same site that proves that those weapons with seemingly high paper DPS are in fact not great. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: The only thing you've managed to do is deflect, fail at debunking me, while, with this very recent reply, debunk yourself with regards to all maps being cramped as you claimed. If there were any more denial here it'd turn into a river in Egypt. Is all this petulance meant to convince me or yourself? 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: The spread cone's area of potential contact becomes bigger the further the target and contact zone is from the weapon, so although the pellet contact spot might be random within the cone, the player predicts what percentage of the cone area will bypass the target. The concept of prediction with regards to the use of hitscan weapons, target selection and distance accounts for this very mechanic. If you don't get, then you don't get it. Okay, so you really do think shotguns are aimed like sniper rifles, got it. By the way: the best way to "predict what percentage of the cone area will bypass the target"? Hit them dead-on with the center projectile. Still no prediction, and if you're trying to snipe with shotguns in-game, you're doing it wrong. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: I do predict spread across distances. Many players do, not only in Warframe, but any shooter game with spread mechanics - players don't have to get dead-on close to a target to kill them. ... where? This radiates "there are dozens of us!" energy. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Wait a minute, do you actually get "dead-on" close to each target before shooting them with a shotgun? Oh, you really don't get it. Do yourself a favor: Shoot the enemy's body as you close the gap and switch to the head when you are close enough so the spread doesn't cause most of the pellets to miss - as you get used to predicting the distance from which the switch in target (from body to head) becomes more efficient, you'll start to notice you don't need to be dead-on close to the target to kill them at all. So along with deflecting and proving yourself wrong, you've exposed a beginner's level of understanding regarding the use of shotguns in this game. Good job. And now we're on the flipside of the matter, where you criticize me for firing a shotgun at close range. Yikes. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: There you go with your extremes:: A system that punishes players based on human error will inevitably punish players, because of human error. Pretty obvious. Given your admission to only very basic understanding of how to use a shotgun in Warframe, I'll try to keep this fairly simple, Suppose you and your squad enter a room. Enemies to the North, enemies to the East. As you enter, you stop sprinting and continue walking as you charge your Bramma's shot, aiming at the group of enemies to the North. Before releasing, an ally appears right in front of you, walking while shooting, to your North. So what can you do to fire the shot without hitting the ally? Change the relative positioning in a number of ways: Change your aim to the enemies to the East. Relative to you, your ally is now to your left and not in front of you. You can fire safely. Slide forward past your ally. Relative to you, your ally will no longer be ahead of you, but behind you (this would be the beginner's way to clear line of fire) Slide to the left or right. Relative to you, your ally will no longer be in front of you, but at an angle to your left or right, out of your line of fire. You can bullet jump up. Relative to you, your ally is now below you, out of your line of fire. Bullet jump to the left or right. Relative to you, your ally is not only below you, but to your left or right, out of your line of fire. Putting aside how all of this presumes the shot hasn't been fired yet before the ally moved in, which doesn't especially describe many situations where this happens, all of these also presume that the player has the time to react to the player coming in as they're about to release the trigger, deliberate, and alter their course, which as you would know if you'd played the game, also doesn't describe every situation in which this kind of thing happens. All of these also presume the ally doesn't continue moving in the same direction as you as you try to maneuver around them, assuming they haven't killed the group you were targeting if you've been taking all this extra time to adjust your aim and go to great lengths to line up the perfect shot free from interference. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: So from here, extrapolate what you could have done in order for your ally to not even have been in your line of fire in the first place: Upon entering the room and seeing the enemies, slide forward while drawing your bow, causing you to maintain faster forward movement for slightly longer. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases. Which puts you in the line of fire of your allies. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Upon entering the room, move left or right as you draw the bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases. Which delays you and makes you less likely to kill the enemies which will then be in the line of fire of your allies. This also presumes there is always enough space to move left or right enough to be out of the line of fire, which is not the case in the game's many corridors. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Upon entering the room, slide at an angle left or right as you draw the bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases more. Same as above, also jerks your aim around for no valid reason. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Upon entering the room, bullet jump at an angle forward and to the left or right as you draw your bow. The potential of an ally being in your line of fire decreases dramatically. Delays even further, disrupts aim even further, and also presumes there is enough space to do all of this enough to create space, which once again, isn't always the case. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Those are some of the basics with regards to relative positioning. There's more you can do, but these are enough. Incorporate situational awareness, knowing more or less where your allies are on the map, how far behind you they are etc, and you'll be able to be even safer. Select the right targets based on ally weaponry and observed tactics. Those are the basics. They are not hard and countless players employ them unconsciously every day in various co-op games. Employ them, get used to them and you won't need things like Primed Sure Footed or Status Immunity to use explosive weapons. So as per your "basics", the only way to avoid an ally getting into one's line of fire or vice versa is to engage in a complex dance at the entry of each room that involves going out of one's way to avoid shooting, moving to spaces that may not exist, and jerk one's aim around, all to reduce (and not eliminate) the chance of being in an ally's line of fire. And you expect this to happen in pub groups, too. Not only does this not reflect moment-to-moment gameplay in Warframe by an iota, it is so far removed that one cannot help but question when it was the last time you've even played the game. Your loud broadcasting of how out of touch you are with this game, all while accusing your opponents of incompetence, is a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. 21 hours ago, Silligoose said: Look up "suspension of disbelief". It relates to the willingness of a subject/viewer/player to avoid critical thinking for the sake of enjoying a work of fiction, such as a game. That suspension of disbelief has limits: Players can immerse themselves in the game by being willing to accept certain rules within the game, such as being able to wield magic, or slay dragons with a little sword, or fly, or use magic space powers, however, if very obvious laws of physics keeps being broken, that suspension of disbelief becomes less effective. Ever play a game in which the physics weren't coded properly? Where the walking animation made it look like the controlled unit is skating, or floating, instead of walking? Ever played a game in which the mapping wasn't done properly and the player controlled unit's legs constantly clipped through the floor, or the player controlled unit "punches" an enemy but clips straight through them instead? Games that don't adhere to everyday real-life physics we are used to in the real world, tend to test that suspension of disbelief too greatly, breaking immersion. The more these relatable, everyday laws of physics get broken, the less immersive a game becomes. Like I said, to each his own. I'm well aware of suspension of disbelief, as that was precisely what I was bringing up when pointing out how laughable it is for you to find one gameplay quirk unrealistic among a sea of far more outlandish bits of gameplay. Welcome to the point, glad you got there in the end. 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LillyRaccune Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said: Incorporate situational awareness, knowing more or less where your allies are on the map, how far behind you they are etc, and you'll be able to be even safer. Select the right targets based on ally weaponry and observed tactics. Me: "to much thinking, don't care." Teammates: "didn't get the memo, doesn't read the 3rd party websites, wants to play for an hour before leaving for work." 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I am thankful actual game designers prefer not to base their design philosophy on spite. This is why self-damage is gone. Warframe public games are full of morons, even if those players are not normally morons when working as a team. Asking strangers to strategize and cooperate is unrealistic. On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said: The spread cone's area of potential contact becomes bigger the further the target and contact zone is from the weapon, so although the pellet contact spot might be random within the cone, the player predicts what percentage of the cone area will bypass the target. Unfortunately the only shotgun that applies to this "cone" idea is Arca Plasmor. Weapons (not just shotties) shoot projectiles (not geometry) and these projectiles curve. This is especially noticeable when using Heavy Calibur, Magnum Force, and Vicious Spread. This also applies to hitscan weapons, instead of a "cone" they fire in a "funnel" (fluted/curved/convex cone shape). Regarding hit prediction, as any RNG argument will reveal, probability and statistics always fall victim to the volatile nature of RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GigaZumbi001 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Self damage is easily exploited by warframes with a ability that basically consists of 'take damage and receive buffs' like Rhino and Chroma via this method: 1: Activate the ability 2: Shoot foot with AoE weapon 3: Profit Edit: To any mods that see this the thread is now just 2 people arguing over something vaguely resembling whether or not self-damage should be readded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 34 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Your position so far has been to demand the reinstatement of self-damage before even considering the fixing of all the bugs that would cause players to inflict self-damage through no fault of their own. You are thus expecting players to be punished for bugs. On 2021-10-04 at 9:43 PM, Silligoose said: Invisible boundaries should be considered a bug or poor mapping and is not a valid reason to be against self-damage: Bugs and poor mapping need to be fixed, not circumvented. On 2021-10-05 at 1:56 AM, Silligoose said: Poor mapping, or bugs, need to be fixed, not circumvented. On 2021-10-06 at 1:21 AM, Silligoose said: Should I specifically explain how bugs, inaccurate mapping and ping is beyond a player's control? The Tenet Envoy apparently has a bug causing players to blow up defense objectives without having Radiaiton Procs on them and without the projectile being shot down by an enemy. This is not intended. If someone now says "remove the Tenet Envoy's radial attack (the explosive part), because there is a a bug blowing up the defense objective", would that be considered a valid reason? No, not to me. Bugs should be fixed. Players expect bugs to be fixed. That should go without saying, but apparently some people need that to be said, multiple times. If DE were to remove the explosive mechanic of the Tenet Envoy instead of addressing the bug, it would be a travesty. In the same way, I do not consider bugs to be a valid argument for self-damage not to be in games. Bugs need to be fixed, not circumvented by removing other mechanics from the game. Honestly, I overestimated you and when we started our debate, I did not think you would need so many obvious concepts and mechanics explained. 36 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: So what you are admitting is that it took you a significant amount of dredging through the video to find even one sort-of open area. The area in 3:30 is, by the way, the same Defense tile you shared, which you somehow appear not to have recognized, and the video shows the many cramped spaces around its main zone too. Grineer maps have a similar problem even if they are not as cramped as the old Corpus Ship, and the Kuva Fortress tileset in particular is known for its tight corridors and tiny indoor areas. At this point, I cannot help but question your experience with tilesets that exist in the present game, let alone defunct ones from the game's creation. I started the vid, skipped forward with arrow key a few times and from 3:30 on I saw a few screenshots of open areas. The next screenshot of a tighter area only appears somewhere in the 6min timeframe. I clicked randomly on the scroll bar checking what else it showed. but I had no intention of spending more than 5 mins on the vid. Unsurprisingly, there are more open areas. Unsurprisingly, you were wrong, again. The vid I posted showed a Grinner tileset in the forest also proving you wrong. The Kuva Fortress is cramped, but of course I did say some maps are tighter, some are more open and within those maps, some tilesets are tighter, while some are more open. Your argument was all maps were cramped - you were objectively proven wrong. 44 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Wait, why is players shooting at their feet a balance issue? Balance is about the relative power of different competing game elements, not about the way gameplay is conceived. If you don't like players shooting at their feet, that's a design issue. Balance encompasses far more than relative power of different competing game elements. It encompasses ease of use, reward for use, skill floors, skill ceiling and associated maximum effectiveness at the skill ceiling, amongst other things. In terms of balance, the low skill floor of explosive weapons has too great a reward compared to other weapon classes. Generally, with non-explosive ranged weapons, players need to aim at the enemy and hit them, thus they have to at least also know where the enemies are. Currently, with explosive weapons, players do not need to know where enemies are and do not need to aim at them to kill them. It is an imbalance. 51 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: So, effectively, you suggested something entirely different for an entirely different context, which would in no way make it the same mechanic as what was just proposed. I suggested an explosive not arming when hitting an ally to prevent self damage. That implies the ally being close to the explosive weapon user, or else the mechanic serves no purpose. The only change is that the explosive doesn't arm when hitting something close. Keep calling vastly different I guess. 53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: And now we're on the flipside of the matter, where you criticize me for firing a shotgun at close range. Yikes. No, I criticize you for saying one needs to be "dead-on" close to use a shotgun. Shooting close-range is fine, but attempting to tell players ONLY shooting close-range is valid, is wrong, which is what you did. Anyone who says you HAVE to get in "dead-on" close range to use a shotgun, lacks understanding of game mechanics. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: In other words, it's really the punishment you're after. I am thankful actual game designers prefer not to base their design philosophy on spite. No, I'm after proper balance. Players get staggered by their own explosives when in range, not as a result of spite from DE, but for balance. It is not done correctly in my opinion and thus we sit with the AoE meta. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: ... Corrosive procs also amplify your damage. Not only is your "math" spurious, you appear to lack elementary knowledge of the systems you are working with, save for how to design unrealistic mod setups that inflate your paper DPS. Cute. You stated the maths accounts for MAX Viral procs, which it doesn't, which I proved. You were wrong, again. Now you deflect, again, and change your wording to save face, which you failed at doing. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: So the interesting thing here is that you're accusing me of deflection, when all of the above has been you deflecting valid criticism of both paper DPS and your attempts to abuse it for the purposes of an internet argument, and so through purely rehashed arguments. You have no argument against the validity of actual usage statistics other than to dismiss them out of hand, much less a valid reason why people should trust paper DPS instead when they clearly show that weapons that are overpowered to you are quite mediocre in practice (and notice how you rely purely on theoreticals instead of actually demonstrating the Kulstar and Tonkor's relative power in-game compared to frontrunners). Not only are you the one deflecting here, you are projecting to an absurd degree. Your criticism of the paper DPS was wrong: You thought it accounted for max Viral stats, which was objectively wrong. You present usage stats as the only measure of weapons strength, which is objectively wrong. I presented you with objective maths instead of a popularity contest and you tucked tail and ran. Keep clinging to your Appeal to Popularity. By your logic Nezha Prime is weaker than Nezha, since Nexha Prime was used less in 202 according to the stats you presented. That is objectively false, making you objectively wrong, again. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: So still mad, then. You are really looking for some sort of win here, aren't you. You aren't worth getting mad at. Sorry Tenno, you are wrong, again. You've got quite the streak going in that regard. 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: If there were any more denial here it'd turn into a river in Egypt. Is all this petulance meant to convince me or yourself? Neither. See if you can figure that one out 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: Okay, so you really do think shotguns are aimed like sniper rifles, got it. By the way: the best way to "predict what percentage of the cone area will bypass the target"? Hit them dead-on with the center projectile. Still no prediction, and if you're trying to snipe with shotguns in-game, you're doing it wrong. Snipers? Lol. Damage fall-off for certain shotguns only start at 26m (eg Strun Prime,) unmodded and can be increased to greater distance with mods. You aim it like other ranged weapons when firing at targets 20+m away, depending on your mods. You can do so while closing the gap, but there isn't a need to close the gap to the point of being "dead-on", since you don't need to be "dead-on" close to the target to kill it. You, Teridax86, can keep closing the gap to be "dead-on" to each target to kill them. Nothing wrong with that if you like playing that way, but it is not the most effective way to play with shotguns and it is not the most efficient way to play with shotguns in terms of Time to Kill. Claiming anyone not doing what you do is. In certain missions, such as missions in which you have a defensive objective, eg Excavators, your tactic leaves the defense objective more open to attack for longer, since you waste time being closing the gap to each enemy in order to be "dead-on" close before shooting. Me? I don't need to run around like a headless chicken looking for insects. I can stay in a more central area close to the Defense Objective and just kill enemies 20+m away, even if they enter from opposite directions (thus being 40+m away from one another). 1 hour ago, Teridax68 said: ... where? This radiates "there are dozens of us!" energy. Play other shooters with other players and see. Hell, just pay attention to your allies in Warframe when they use shotguns. Better yet, go start a thread and proclaim that anyone shooting from a distance that isn't "dead-on" close to the target is doing it wrong, but be prepared to get laughed at. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Putting aside how all of this presumes the shot hasn't been fired yet before the ally moved in, which doesn't especially describe many situations where this happens, all of these also presume that the player has the time to react to the player coming in as they're about to release the trigger, deliberate, and alter their course, which as you would know if you'd played the game, also doesn't describe every situation in which this kind of thing happens. All of these also presume the ally doesn't continue moving in the same direction as you as you try to maneuver around them, assuming they haven't killed the group you were targeting if you've been taking all this extra time to adjust your aim and go to great lengths to line up the perfect shot free from interference. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Which puts you in the line of fire of your allies. A theoretical situation was created in order to explain the basics to you. Explaining more advanced tactics to you is a lost cause, since you do not yet comprehend the basics. Even trying to explain the basics to you with regards to relative positioning seems a lost cause, due to your shortcomings. Claiming moving left or right will delay you in any significant way is hilarious. Claiming movements such as these are done for no valid reason is absurd - you are doing this to minimize the potential of self-stagger in the current game without having to rely on Status Immunity or a mod such as Primed Sure Footed, opening up a mod slot and mod capacity, or allowing for use of explosive weapons with frames that don't have status/knockdown immunity. Those are very valid reasons. You are wrong, again. If you are having trouble with maintaining aim when moving left or right, or sliding, you should work on your mechanical skills and improve your aiming. Same for reattaining your aim after initiating a bullet jump. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: So as per your "basics", the only way to avoid an ally getting into one's line of fire or vice versa is to engage in a complex dance at the entry of each room that involves going out of one's way to avoid shooting, moving to spaces that may not exist, and jerk one's aim around, all to reduce (and not eliminate) the chance of being in an ally's line of fire. And you expect this to happen in pub groups, too. Not only does this not reflect moment-to-moment gameplay in Warframe by an iota, it is so far removed that one cannot help but question when it was the last time you've even played the game. Your loud broadcasting of how out of touch you are with this game, all while accusing your opponents of incompetence, is a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. Learning to drive a manual car seems complicated to some people when they start, since they are unfamiliar with the multi-tasking involved. After some practice, it becomes second nature. Same principle applies to this. It seems complicated to you because you are unfamiliar with the basics. I played earlier today. I don't spend the majority of my time on forum to rack up 4k replies. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I'm well aware of suspension of disbelief, as that was precisely what I was bringing up when pointing out how laughable it is for you to find one gameplay quirk unrealistic among a sea of far more outlandish bits of gameplay. Welcome to the point, glad you got there in the end. You may be aware of it, but you clearly do not understand what aids it and what detracts from it. I've taken the time to disprove a myriad of your claims and explained basic mechanics within Warframe and games overall. Nezha Prime (usage in 2020 = 0.42%) is stronger than Nezha (usage = 1.29%), despite Nezha being used more in that year. One does not need to be dead-on close to a target to kill it with a shotgun: Prediction is used when aiming, even with a hitscan weapon, to increase efficiency and accuracy. Maps weren't all cramped. The list goes on regarding claims you made that have been invalidated. It is abundantly clear you are not only lacking knowledge and understanding with regards to basic mechanics within Warframe, but lack knowledge and understanding with regards to basic game mechanics overall. Even when presented with objective proof invalidating your claims, you refuse to accept it, or even debate it, instead ignoring it, or deflecting from it. I said earlier in this reply I overestimated you. I do not particularly enjoy punching down and see no value in debating you further until you address the objective proofs presented that invalidate your claims. 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Silligoose Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said: Me: "to much thinking, don't care." Teammates: "didn't get the memo, doesn't read the 3rd party websites, wants to play for an hour before leaving for work." Learning to drive a manual car seems complicated to some people when they start, since they are unfamiliar with the multi-tasking involved. They may erroneously imagine it would take too much thinking. Soon it becomes second nature. Same principle applies to this. It seems complicated if you are unfamiliar with the basics. You are most likely already incorporating situational awareness without even realizing, such as knowing where Wisp placed her reservoirs, or seeing where Volt placed a shield. 1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said: This is why self-damage is gone. Warframe public games are full of morons, even if those players are not normally morons when working as a team. Asking strangers to strategize and cooperate is unrealistic. Strangers strategize and co-operate not only in Warframe, but other games as well, both PvP and PvE, such as most MOBA's (DOTA, League, Ark) and many MMORPG's, (Final Fantasy 14, World of Warcraft, Ark). In Warframe, players revive teammates, use support abilities and cc to aid teammates and help them be more effective. It is encountered less at lategame/endgame thoughm unfortunately, due to support frames falling off by then. 1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said: Unfortunately the only shotgun that applies to this "cone" idea is Arca Plasmor. Weapons (not just shotties) shoot projectiles (not geometry) and these projectiles curve. This is especially noticeable when using Heavy Calibur, Magnum Force, and Vicious Spread. This also applies to hitscan weapons, instead of a "cone" they fire in a "funnel" (fluted/curved/convex cone shape). Regarding hit prediction, as any RNG argument will reveal, probability and statistics always fall victim to the volatile nature of RNG. Weapons incorporate geometery, as the spread forms an area around the aim reticle, usually by an angle and usually in the shape of a cone. The RNG aspect of spread is confined within the spread cone/funnel/triangle/whatever you want to call it. It is generally coded to be a cone, since the spread has a chance of a fired shot landing somewhere within a set angle from the aiming reticle, ie the bullet/pelle/projectile is coded to deviate no more than, for example, 5 degrees from the centre point of aim (aiming reticle). The player controls where the aim reticle is positioned and thus controls where the spread cone is positioned, in turn controlling where shots could land and where shots won't land - in the example the maximum deviation due to spread is 5 degrees from the centre point, so shots won't land 6 degrees or more from the centre point. When it comes to spread, RNG is at the mercy of the player, not the other way around. This assumes proper coding of course. Edit: In terms of real world comparison, the spread of a shotgun is akin to a flashlight - the light from a flashlight bulb is spread "randomly" in a direction within a spread cone, but you can control which areas are illuminated directly by the flashlight, since you control the aim of the flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: Edit: In terms of real world comparison, the spread of a shotgun is akin to a flashlight - the light from a flashlight bulb is spread "randomly" in a direction within a spread cone, but you can control which areas are illuminated directly by the flashlight, since you control the aim of the flashlight. Makes perfect sense in a real-world application. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: Strangers strategize and co-operate Friendship doors (and their associated "DE should remove posts") say hello. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: It seems complicated if you are unfamiliar with the basics. I played Army of Two. In that game those tactics made perfect sense. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: You are most likely already incorporating situational awareness without even realizing, such as knowing where Wisp placed her reservoirs, or seeing where Volt placed a shield. I have Enemy Radar on nearly every frame. I do understand rally-points for Wisp Motes and choke-points for kill boxes. However even though I try to be a good support frame, no one else cares or revives anyone. Also the part about noting which weapons my allies are using... some players don't use their weapons according to conventional use and they could care less about inter-frame tactics. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: Learning to drive Video game versus real-world skills. Learning to drive is important, Warframe is not, most public players don't care. Out of the 30 or so railjack missions I have hosted in the past month, only one single player actually asked "what role should I take?" ___ It could be me misinterpreting you, but it feels like you are speaking with a condescending tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: Makes perfect sense in a real-world application. It was pretty late when I replied to you, so I'm not sure if that made sense. Equate the cone spread from a shotgun to a flashlight in a game: The area a flashlight illuminates in an area represents the RNG zone in which shotgun pellets may hit. In the same way a player can control which areas are illuminated by the flashlight in a game, a player controls where the spread cone falls, thus controlling where shotgun pellets can potentially hit. 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: Friendship doors (and their associated "DE should remove posts") say hello. Even though I really like many of the co-op mechanics in Warframe, friendship doors are one I also dislike - it feels too forced to me. 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: I played Army of Two. In that game those tactics made perfect sense. I'm not familiar with the game, but great. Those mechanics are encountered in m any co-op games. 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: I have Enemy Radar on nearly every frame. I do understand rally-points for Wisp Motes and choke-points for kill boxes. However even though I try to be a good support frame, no one else cares or revives anyone. Also the part about noting which weapons my allies are using... some players don't use their weapons according to conventional use and they could care less about inter-frame tactics. Exactly. Those are great examples of you already making use of situational awareness, including discerning how other players use their frames and weapons. Curios - In the rare event it is actually needed, there are usually multiple players ready to revive a fallen ally in my pub games. I don't know why my experience differs so greatly from other players with regards to teammates reviving one another. 6 hours ago, LillyRaccune said: Video game versus real-world skills. Learning to drive is important, Warframe is not, most public players don't care. Out of the 30 or so railjack missions I have hosted in the past month, only one single player actually asked "what role should I take?" The example is set to illustrate how people's skill with regards to something increases with use. I'm sure there are people who may start playing Warframe and feel the movement system is complicated, since they are unfamiliar with all the parkour movements one can do in Warframe, while shooting during those parkour moves no less, but most players I see have become adept at navigating terrain with Warframe parkour and shoot enemies while bullet jumping or sliding. I've seen quite a bit of feedback from players regarding Railjack in which they share experiences that seems mostly negative, many a time due to teammates not working as a unit. It is a shame you experience that so often. Personally I don't experience it much at all. Players rarely state which role they fill, but they do fill those roles and switch to needed rolls without prompting in my experience. I don't know why my experience differs so greatly from other players' experiences, but I hope you get more teamplay-oriented teammates in future missions. You seem to have misinterpreted my tone. My reply was not meant to be received with a condescending tone. I may need work on that. Any specific word or phrase that led to that interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: The Tenet Envoy apparently has a bug causing players to blow up defense objectives without having Radiaiton Procs on them and without the projectile being shot down by an enemy. This is not intended. If someone now says "remove the Tenet Envoy's radial attack (the explosive part), because there is a a bug blowing up the defense objective", would that be considered a valid reason? No, not to me. Bugs should be fixed. Players expect bugs to be fixed. That should go without saying, but apparently some people need that to be said, multiple times. If DE were to remove the explosive mechanic of the Tenet Envoy instead of addressing the bug, it would be a travesty. This is a single, easily identifiable bug, as opposed to the plethora of far more deeply-embedded and less easily resolvable issues causing self-damage to mess up in interactions with the environment and its boundaries. You visibly have never had to do any bugfixing, but let me tell you that one of these things is a lot harder to fix than the other. You also seem to be unaware that self-damage does not exist in the game anymore, and thus does not need to be reinserted, which is different from removing something that currently exists in the live version. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: In the same way, I do not consider bugs to be a valid argument for self-damage not to be in games. Bugs need to be fixed, not circumvented by removing other mechanics from the game. Honestly, I overestimated you and when we started our debate, I did not think you would need so many obvious concepts and mechanics explained. Okay, so you want to simply pretend masses of bugs don't exist, layer an unpopular mechanic on top that was known to clash horribly with them, and expect it to all go down smoothly. Brilliant idea! 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: I started the vid, skipped forward with arrow key a few times and from 3:30 on I saw a few screenshots of open areas. The next screenshot of a tighter area only appears somewhere in the 6min timeframe. I clicked randomly on the scroll bar checking what else it showed. but I had no intention of spending more than 5 mins on the vid. Unsurprisingly, there are more open areas. Unsurprisingly, you were wrong, again. So, again by your own admission, you did not do your research, as the tile in 3:30 is the one Defense tile you linked. Incidentally, the areas that go all the way to the 6 minute mark are all part of that same tile. You have just proven that you have no accurate recollection of the old Corpus Ship tileset, and that the less you know what you're talking about, the more you affect a condescending tone. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: The vid I posted showed a Grinner tileset in the forest also proving you wrong. Have you actually played that tileset? The tileset is mostly corridors, including many areas designed to look open while still remaining extremely narrow. Again, just play the tileset, or any amount of Warframe for that matter. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: The Kuva Fortress is cramped, but of course I did say some maps are tighter, some are more open and within those maps, some tilesets are tighter, while some are more open. Your argument was all maps were cramped - you were objectively proven wrong. Hang on, where did I say that all maps were cramped? Once again, you are attempting an obvious straw man in the face of an argument even you know you've lost. My point is that the game is full of cramped areas, which makes Warframe a poor fit for gameplay where one has to constantly keep distance between oneself and enemies. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Balance encompasses far more than relative power of different competing game elements. It encompasses ease of use, reward for use, skill floors, skill ceiling and associated maximum effectiveness at the skill ceiling, amongst other things. In terms of balance, the low skill floor of explosive weapons has too great a reward compared to other weapon classes. Generally, with non-explosive ranged weapons, players need to aim at the enemy and hit them, thus they have to at least also know where the enemies are. Currently, with explosive weapons, players do not need to know where enemies are and do not need to aim at them to kill them. It is an imbalance. Literally all of those are factors affecting the relative power of those weapons. If you want to argue that not requiring to aim explosive weapons as much as others makes them more powerful, then you would be making a balance argument, but as it stands your argument so far has been that you just don't like it when players shoot it at their feet. That's not a balance, and barely even counts as a design argument, it's just you arguing from personal preference. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: I suggested an explosive not arming when hitting an ally to prevent self damage. That implies the ally being close to the explosive weapon user, or else the mechanic serves no purpose. The only change is that the explosive doesn't arm when hitting something close. Keep calling vastly different I guess. Your mechanic as stated both now and before does not factor in distance. Again, what you are proposing is a different mechanic, you are just asking me to make the logical leap and assume it is somehow useful, or implemented better than the way you suggested. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: No, I criticize you for saying one needs to be "dead-on" close to use a shotgun. Shooting close-range is fine, but attempting to tell players ONLY shooting close-range is valid, is wrong, which is what you did. Anyone who says you HAVE to get in "dead-on" close range to use a shotgun, lacks understanding of game mechanics. If you are trying to shoot a shotgun from a long distance, you are the one doing it wrong. Similarly, if you cannot understand that the very design of shotguns, both in Warframe and in other games, requires players to get up close to make effective use of them, then you lack basic understanding of elementary game design elements. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: No, I'm after proper balance. Players get staggered by their own explosives when in range, not as a result of spite from DE, but for balance. It is not done correctly in my opinion and thus we sit with the AoE meta. If you were after "proper balance" you wouldn't be trying to nerf already mediocre weapons along with truly overpowered outliers that shape the current meta. Your position here isn't founded on sound design principles, it's founded on spite, wilful ignorance of obvious facts, and a complete disregard for the playerbase you are supposed to be designing for. It is to everyone's benefit that you aren't and likely never will be let anywhere close to this game's design. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Cute. You stated the maths accounts for MAX Viral procs, which it doesn't, which I proved. You were wrong, again. Now you deflect, again, and change your wording to save face, which you failed at doing. Stating that the change you effected still induces the same result (in this case, a damage increase) isn't deflection, it is directly debunking your argument. You are so desperate to win something here that you've lost awareness of what it even is you're working with. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Your criticism of the paper DPS was wrong: You thought it accounted for max Viral stats, which was objectively wrong. You present usage stats as the only measure of weapons strength, which is objectively wrong. I presented you with objective maths instead of a popularity contest and you tucked tail and ran. Keep clinging to your Appeal to Popularity. My criticism of paper DPS wasn't based on whether or not you used Viral stats, my criticism of paper DPS is that it doesn't reflect a weapon's performance in game, because a weapon is not simply a DPS meter. The fact that we're talking about explosives, whose AoE radius makes them potentially output more damage than single-target weapons with equivalent DPS, should have been enough of a clue already. Once again, you are intentionally mischaracterizing my argument so that you can give yourself something you can actually fight, instead of addressing the points at hand, all while grandstanding about how I'm "tucking tail" and similar nonsense. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: By your logic Nezha Prime is weaker than Nezha, since Nexha Prime was used less in 202 according to the stats you presented. That is objectively false, making you objectively wrong, again. Nezha Prime released in October 27th 2020, giving him very little time to see usage in those stats. Meanwhile, weapons like the Kuva Bramma, Ignis Wraith, Kuva Nukor were all released sufficiently early in the year to accumulate accurate usage statistics for the year 2020. Just because you do not know how statistics work does not mean the whole field of statistics is invalid. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: You are really looking for some sort of win here, aren't you. You aren't worth getting mad at. Sorry Tenno, you are wrong, again. You've got quite the streak going in that regard. I don't need to look for anything here, I am pointing out that you are letting your frustration bleed over into this discussion and manifest as childish name-calling and acting out. The fact that you continue to deny the fact that you're mad in a way that shows you are still obviously mad is itself hilarious. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Neither. See if you can figure that one out Ah, so just a pointless bit of venting, then. How convincing. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Snipers? Lol. Damage fall-off for certain shotguns only start at 26m (eg Strun Prime,) unmodded and can be increased to greater distance with mods. You aim it like other ranged weapons when firing at targets 20+m away, depending on your mods. You can do so while closing the gap, but there isn't a need to close the gap to the point of being "dead-on", since you don't need to be "dead-on" close to the target to kill it. You, Teridax86, can keep closing the gap to be "dead-on" to each target to kill them. Nothing wrong with that if you like playing that way, but it is not the most effective way to play with shotguns and it is not the most efficient way to play with shotguns in terms of Time to Kill. Claiming anyone not doing what you do is. In certain missions, such as missions in which you have a defensive objective, eg Excavators, your tactic leaves the defense objective more open to attack for longer, since you waste time being closing the gap to each enemy in order to be "dead-on" close before shooting. Me? I don't need to run around like a headless chicken looking for insects. I can stay in a more central area close to the Defense Objective and just kill enemies 20+m away, even if they enter from opposite directions (thus being 40+m away from one another). I like how you picked the Stun Prime to try to prove your point when not only is its falloff range noted to be above-average for shotguns (the regular Strun's falloff rate, for example, is 12m), it's still not a terribly large distance. You've similarly missed the part where at that range your damage will not only fall off from damage falloff, it will be lessened because the shotgun's spread means increasingly fewer pellets will hit the farther away you are. You've poured copious amounts of intellectually bankrupt text into trying to convince... someone, at any rate, that shotguns are not meant to be used at close range, actually, all while failing to understand the most basic reasons why using shotguns over longer distances in a video game is generally not a good idea. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Play other shooters with other players and see. Hell, just pay attention to your allies in Warframe when they use shotguns. Better yet, go start a thread and proclaim that anyone shooting from a distance that isn't "dead-on" close to the target is doing it wrong, but be prepared to get laughed at. I have, actually, that's why I'm confused, because I don't think anyone who's ever used a shotgun in a video game would say what you've been saying unironically. The fact that you didn't know the center shot retained the weapon's accuracy in Warframe lends further credence to this. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: A theoretical situation was created in order to explain the basics to you. Explaining more advanced tactics to you is a lost cause, since you do not yet comprehend the basics. Even trying to explain the basics to you with regards to relative positioning seems a lost cause, due to your shortcomings. Claiming moving left or right will delay you in any significant way is hilarious. Claiming movements such as these are done for no valid reason is absurd - you are doing this to minimize the potential of self-stagger in the current game without having to rely on Status Immunity or a mod such as Primed Sure Footed, opening up a mod slot and mod capacity, or allowing for use of explosive weapons with frames that don't have status/knockdown immunity. Those are very valid reasons. You are wrong, again. If you are having trouble with maintaining aim when moving left or right, or sliding, you should work on your mechanical skills and improve your aiming. Same for reattaining your aim after initiating a bullet jump. Your theoretical situation was just that: theoretical. It wasn't grounded in any degree of experience with the game, as noted by your lack of awareness of what the actions you're suggesting actually entail, and as another user pointed out, it is your own advice that is absurd for the amount of inconvenience and coordination it requires of strangers playing together. The fact that you try to counter a needless disruption to one's aim with an accusation of mechanical incompetence highlights one of the core problems with your stance: you are incredibly keen to both inflict unpleasant gameplay upon a playerbase that overwhelmingly doesn't want it, and in the face of valid reasons why people don't engage in the pointlessly convoluted gameplay you expect of them, your only response is to attack the character of others. Again and again, you demonstrate how ill-suited you are to advise anyone else on how to play a game you clearly do not understand very well, let alone design it, and your attempts to double down with added self-importance and down-talking only further erode what little credibility you hope to project here. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: Learning to drive a manual car seems complicated to some people when they start, since they are unfamiliar with the multi-tasking involved. After some practice, it becomes second nature. Same principle applies to this. It seems complicated to you because you are unfamiliar with the basics. I played earlier today. I don't spend the majority of my time on forum to rack up 4k replies. The fact that you say this to someone with over double your playtime on Warframe, and so after choosing to pick an argument with another user on here, makes this reply all the more hilarious. You visibly make all the time in the world to pick pointless fights, all while failing to realize that trying to tell, rather than show your skill with Warframe only ends up conveying the opposite impression. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: You may be aware of it, but you clearly do not understand what aids it and what detracts from it. Again, I pointed out factors that would detract from suspension of disbelief just as much, so a weak attempt at character assassination for yet a point in which you're out of your depth isn't really going to change things. You made a salty reply dismissing a valid mechanical change while citing a shoddy excuse, and rather than just move on, you continue to double down on your position, no matter the embarrassment it incurs you. 12 hours ago, Silligoose said: I've taken the time to disprove a myriad of your claims and explained basic mechanics within Warframe and games overall. Nezha Prime (usage in 2020 = 0.42%) is stronger than Nezha (usage = 1.29%), despite Nezha being used more in that year. One does not need to be dead-on close to a target to kill it with a shotgun: Prediction is used when aiming, even with a hitscan weapon, to increase efficiency and accuracy. Maps weren't all cramped. The list goes on regarding claims you made that have been invalidated. It is abundantly clear you are not only lacking knowledge and understanding with regards to basic mechanics within Warframe, but lack knowledge and understanding with regards to basic game mechanics overall. Even when presented with objective proof invalidating your claims, you refuse to accept it, or even debate it, instead ignoring it, or deflecting from it. I said earlier in this reply I overestimated you. I do not particularly enjoy punching down and see no value in debating you further until you address the objective proofs presented that invalidate your claims. I'm sorry, which objective proofs? The fact of the matter is, you chose to pick a fight with me because I expressed a dislike of self-damage, and you took issue with that. As this discussion meandered on, I elaborated that I do want to change AoE weapons to test our skills, but in a manner better-suited to the game, while only nerfing the fewer weapons that do cause problems, and so based on actual in-game data that all of us on this forum can access. You, by contrast, wish to inflict self-damage upon the game once more purely because you personally want it back, everyone else be damned, and are ready to ignore the facts to have this. When it's been pointed out that your position is unsound and not particularly healthy feedback either, your response has been to project your incompetence on your now multiple opponents, all while launching into frothing personal attacks where everyone who disagrees with you and your loopy opinions is unskilled at everything, and must therefore be ignored. Your misunderstanding of Warframe, shooting mechanics, and basic statistics is staggering, and given how hard you try to defend yourself against all this, it's visible you're aware of this too, even if you will never admit to it. If this silly ultimatum of yours is intended to serve as an escape hatch to run away from an argument you've badly lost, then by all means, escape away. I don't have anything to prove here, particularly as you've been doing the job for me by proving most of my points yourself. 5 hours ago, Silligoose said: I've seen quite a bit of feedback from players regarding Railjack in which they share experiences that seems mostly negative, many a time due to teammates not working as a unit. It is a shame you experience that so often. Personally I don't experience it much at all. Players rarely state which role they fill, but they do fill those roles and switch to needed rolls without prompting in my experience. I don't know why my experience differs so greatly from other players' experiences, but I hope you get more teamplay-oriented teammates in future missions. This begs the question as to why this is experienced so often. Do you really believe telling players to get gud is going to help the situation? 5 hours ago, Silligoose said: You seem to have misinterpreted my tone. My reply was not meant to be received with a condescending tone. I may need work on that. Any specific word or phrase that led to that interpretation? Ah, self-awareness at last. Where would you like to start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 I'm out. *mic drop* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Teridax68 said: This is a single, easily identifiable bug, as opposed to the plethora of far more deeply-embedded and less easily resolvable issues causing self-damage to mess up in interactions with the environment and its boundaries. You visibly have never had to do any bugfixing, but let me tell you that one of these things is a lot harder to fix than the other. You also seem to be unaware that self-damage does not exist in the game anymore, and thus does not need to be reinserted, which is different from removing something that currently exists in the live version. Okay, so you want to simply pretend masses of bugs don't exist, layer an unpopular mechanic on top that was known to clash horribly with them, and expect it to all go down smoothly. Brilliant idea! So, again by your own admission, you did not do your research, as the tile in 3:30 is the one Defense tile you linked. Incidentally, the areas that go all the way to the 6 minute mark are all part of that same tile. You have just proven that you have no accurate recollection of the old Corpus Ship tileset, and that the less you know what you're talking about, the more you affect a condescending tone. Have you actually played that tileset? The tileset is mostly corridors, including many areas designed to look open while still remaining extremely narrow. Again, just play the tileset, or any amount of Warframe for that matter. Hang on, where did I say that all maps were cramped? Once again, you are attempting an obvious straw man in the face of an argument even you know you've lost. My point is that the game is full of cramped areas, which makes Warframe a poor fit for gameplay where one has to constantly keep distance between oneself and enemies. Literally all of those are factors affecting the relative power of those weapons. If you want to argue that not requiring to aim explosive weapons as much as others makes them more powerful, then you would be making a balance argument, but as it stands your argument so far has been that you just don't like it when players shoot it at their feet. That's not a balance, and barely even counts as a design argument, it's just you arguing from personal preference. Your mechanic as stated both now and before does not factor in distance. Again, what you are proposing is a different mechanic, you are just asking me to make the logical leap and assume it is somehow useful, or implemented better than the way you suggested. If you are trying to shoot a shotgun from a long distance, you are the one doing it wrong. Similarly, if you cannot understand that the very design of shotguns, both in Warframe and in other games, requires players to get up close to make effective use of them, then you lack basic understanding of elementary game design elements. If you were after "proper balance" you wouldn't be trying to nerf already mediocre weapons along with truly overpowered outliers that shape the current meta. Your position here isn't founded on sound design principles, it's founded on spite, wilful ignorance of obvious facts, and a complete disregard for the playerbase you are supposed to be designing for. It is to everyone's benefit that you aren't and likely never will be let anywhere close to this game's design. Stating that the change you effected still induces the same result (in this case, a damage increase) isn't deflection, it is directly debunking your argument. You are so desperate to win something here that you've lost awareness of what it even is you're working with. My criticism of paper DPS wasn't based on whether or not you used Viral stats, my criticism of paper DPS is that it doesn't reflect a weapon's performance in game, because a weapon is not simply a DPS meter. The fact that we're talking about explosives, whose AoE radius makes them potentially output more damage than single-target weapons with equivalent DPS, should have been enough of a clue already. Once again, you are intentionally mischaracterizing my argument so that you can give yourself something you can actually fight, instead of addressing the points at hand, all while grandstanding about how I'm "tucking tail" and similar nonsense. Nezha Prime released in October 27th 2020, giving him very little time to see usage in those stats. Meanwhile, weapons like the Kuva Bramma, Ignis Wraith, Kuva Nukor were all released sufficiently early in the year to accumulate accurate usage statistics for the year 2020. Just because you do not know how statistics work does not mean the whole field of statistics is invalid. I don't need to look for anything here, I am pointing out that you are letting your frustration bleed over into this discussion and manifest as childish name-calling and acting out. The fact that you continue to deny the fact that you're mad in a way that shows you are still obviously mad is itself hilarious. Ah, so just a pointless bit of venting, then. How convincing. I like how you picked the Stun Prime to try to prove your point when not only is its falloff range noted to be above-average for shotguns (the regular Strun's falloff rate, for example, is 12m), it's still not a terribly large distance. You've similarly missed the part where at that range your damage will not only fall off from damage falloff, it will be lessened because the shotgun's spread means increasingly fewer pellets will hit the farther away you are. You've poured copious amounts of intellectually bankrupt text into trying to convince... someone, at any rate, that shotguns are not meant to be used at close range, actually, all while failing to understand the most basic reasons why using shotguns over longer distances in a video game is generally not a good idea. I have, actually, that's why I'm confused, because I don't think anyone who's ever used a shotgun in a video game would say what you've been saying unironically. The fact that you didn't know the center shot retained the weapon's accuracy in Warframe lends further credence to this. Your theoretical situation was just that: theoretical. It wasn't grounded in any degree of experience with the game, as noted by your lack of awareness of what the actions you're suggesting actually entail, and as another user pointed out, it is your own advice that is absurd for the amount of inconvenience and coordination it requires of strangers playing together. The fact that you try to counter a needless disruption to one's aim with an accusation of mechanical incompetence highlights one of the core problems with your stance: you are incredibly keen to both inflict unpleasant gameplay upon a playerbase that overwhelmingly doesn't want it, and in the face of valid reasons why people don't engage in the pointlessly convoluted gameplay you expect of them, your only response is to attack the character of others. Again and again, you demonstrate how ill-suited you are to advise anyone else on how to play a game you clearly do not understand very well, let alone design it, and your attempts to double down with added self-importance and down-talking only further erode what little credibility you hope to project here. The fact that you say this to someone with over double your playtime on Warframe, and so after choosing to pick an argument with another user on here, makes this reply all the more hilarious. You visibly make all the time in the world to pick pointless fights, all while failing to realize that trying to tell, rather than show your skill with Warframe only ends up conveying the opposite impression. Again, I pointed out factors that would detract from suspension of disbelief just as much, so a weak attempt at character assassination for yet a point in which you're out of your depth isn't really going to change things. You made a salty reply dismissing a valid mechanical change while citing a shoddy excuse, and rather than just move on, you continue to double down on your position, no matter the embarrassment it incurs you. I'm sorry, which objective proofs? The fact of the matter is, you chose to pick a fight with me because I expressed a dislike of self-damage, and you took issue with that. As this discussion meandered on, I elaborated that I do want to change AoE weapons to test our skills, but in a manner better-suited to the game, while only nerfing the fewer weapons that do cause problems, and so based on actual in-game data that all of us on this forum can access. You, by contrast, wish to inflict self-damage upon the game once more purely because you personally want it back, everyone else be damned, and are ready to ignore the facts to have this. When it's been pointed out that your position is unsound and not particularly healthy feedback either, your response has been to project your incompetence on your now multiple opponents, all while launching into frothing personal attacks where everyone who disagrees with you and your loopy opinions is unskilled at everything, and must therefore be ignored. Your misunderstanding of Warframe, shooting mechanics, and basic statistics is staggering, and given how hard you try to defend yourself against all this, it's visible you're aware of this too, even if you will never admit to it. If this silly ultimatum of yours is intended to serve as an escape hatch to run away from an argument you've badly lost, then by all means, escape away. I don't have anything to prove here, particularly as you've been doing the job for me by proving most of my points yourself. This begs the question as to why this is experienced so often. Do you really believe telling players to get gud is going to help the situation? Ah, self-awareness at last. Where would you like to start? Replace "self-damage" with :self stagger: then. I don't really care.. You stated all tilesets were cramped, thus all maps were cramped, as maps consist of tilesets, Either way, I don't care: On 2021-10-05 at 2:24 PM, Teridax68 said: By this asinine logic, this game was designed around Operators, fishing, and mining, and in a few years will cease to have been designed around self-damage. This game's initial tilesets are all cramped and had players fight the majority of the time in close combat, which is still largely the case. That is the opposite of being designed around explosive self-damage. As for the rest, I already stated I see no value in continuing the discussion with you until you address the objective proofs presented that invalidated your claims. Instead of doing so, you deflect, you deceive, you try to change your wording to save face when proven wrong, so really this is a waste of my time. I don't care that you think shotguns are only dead-on range one-trick ponies. I don't care that you use appeal to popularity to back your claims. I don't care if you think weapon popularity is based on weapon power alone. I don't care if you can't understand the value of paper DPS and how it relates to practical damage in-game. I don't care if you still think all tilesets and by extension, all maps, were cramped. I don't care that you don't grasp basic game mechanics. I don't care that you don't grasp tactical play, or strategical play, or how mechanics form part of balance. We've reached impasse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: Replace "self-damage" with :self stagger: then. I don't really care.. Many of the issues with self-damage also apply to self-staggers, which is why I would support their removal in favor of measures that would actually address overpowered AoE weapons. If nothing else, though, I would argue that they are still better than the previous situation of accidentally one-shotting oneself from a misplaced projectile. Given that you've spent prodigious amount of time and effort arguing so far, I'd say you do care, or at least did enough to pick a fight with an internet stranger over it. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: You stated all tilesets were cramped, thus all maps were cramped, as maps consist of tilesets, Either way, I don't care: I would suggest you read that quote your produced again. Properly, this time: On 2021-10-05 at 1:24 PM, Teridax68 said: By this asinine logic, this game was designed around Operators, fishing, and mining, and in a few years will cease to have been designed around self-damage. This game's initial tilesets are all cramped and had players fight the majority of the time in close combat, which is still largely the case. That is the opposite of being designed around explosive self-damage. Emphasis mine. The old Corpus Ship, Grineer Asteroid Base, and Grineer Galleon tilesets are all notoriously cramped; the new Corpus Ship and Corpus Gas City tilesets generally less so. I don't quite understand how you thought you could misquote my own post, with the proof of your misquote in the very quote you showed. 1 hour ago, Silligoose said: As for the rest, I already stated I see no value in continuing the discussion with you until you address the objective proofs presented that invalidated your claims. Instead of doing so, you deflect, you deceive, you try to change your wording to save face when proven wrong, so really this is a waste of my time. I don't care that you think shotguns are only dead-on range one-trick ponies. I don't care that you use appeal to popularity to back your claims. I don't care if you think weapon popularity is based on weapon power alone. I don't care if you can't understand the value of paper DPS and how it relates to practical damage in-game. I don't care if you still think all tilesets and by extension, all maps, were cramped. I don't care that you don't grasp basic game mechanics. I don't care that you don't grasp tactical play, or strategical play, or how mechanics form part of balance. We've reached impasse. What you're effectively admitting here is that you don't actually care about the facts. When I respond pertinently to what passes for arguments, you deflect the responses while projecting the same onto me. You ask for proof, but when it was given to you several times by multiple sources, you've dismissed it entirely, demanding only "proof" that suits your own personal preferences, irrespective of validity. It seems the will to prolong this argument you started has faded; instead, you've been coming up with limp excuses to simultaneously keep on arguing while not engaging at all with the subject of discussion. Your rhetoric has been undermined by a tendency to double down on every wrong thing you've said, from your opposition to using shotguns at close range to believing paper DPS is a greater indicator of weapon strength than its actual usage statistics. The end result is that you have managed to make yourself appear profoundly ignorant of not just Warframe, but of video games and basic principles of logic. If you see no value in continuing the discussion, and have nothing new or valuable to say, why keep arguing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vahagn- Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 Self damage was removed for two reasons: 1. Teammates and pets can walk in front of your projectiles and get you hurt or killed. This was too unpredictable to be considered risk and always an issue but Kuva Bramma made it more obvious. 2. To prevent Warframes from intentionally damaging themselves to proc buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silligoose Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: Many of the issues with self-damage also apply to self-staggers, which is why I would support their removal in favor of measures that would actually address overpowered AoE weapons. If nothing else, though, I would argue that they are still better than the previous situation of accidentally one-shotting oneself from a misplaced projectile. Given that you've spent prodigious amount of time and effort arguing so far, I'd say you do care, or at least did enough to pick a fight with an internet stranger over it. I would suggest you read that quote your produced again. Properly, this time: Emphasis mine. The old Corpus Ship, Grineer Asteroid Base, and Grineer Galleon tilesets are all notoriously cramped; the new Corpus Ship and Corpus Gas City tilesets generally less so. I don't quite understand how you thought you could misquote my own post, with the proof of your misquote in the very quote you showed. What you're effectively admitting here is that you don't actually care about the facts. When I respond pertinently to what passes for arguments, you deflect the responses while projecting the same onto me. You ask for proof, but when it was given to you several times by multiple sources, you've dismissed it entirely, demanding only "proof" that suits your own personal preferences, irrespective of validity. It seems the will to prolong this argument you started has faded; instead, you've been coming up with limp excuses to simultaneously keep on arguing while not engaging at all with the subject of discussion. Your rhetoric has been undermined by a tendency to double down on every wrong thing you've said, from your opposition to using shotguns at close range to believing paper DPS is a greater indicator of weapon strength than its actual usage statistics. The end result is that you have managed to make yourself appear profoundly ignorant of not just Warframe, but of video games and basic principles of logic. If you see no value in continuing the discussion, and have nothing new or valuable to say, why keep arguing? I did care, when I over-estimated you. Then came all the nonsense from you exposing how little you understand about game mechanics and how willing you are to overlook evidence that invalidates your claims. Now I don't care. Warframe Alpha test 2012. Plenty of open areas shown. You can use this evidence to say: "Hey you know what, I was wrong. I'm glad I learned something that changed my perspective", or you can keep doing what you've been doing. Up to you whether you want to grow in knowledge or remain closed to it. Facts were presented to you and you ignored it. What I'm saying is I don't care about your perception: Your perception is biased, skewed and based on only specific facts. That's not the real problem though. The real problem is that you, as a person, is unwilling to accept facts you overlooked and/or were not aware of and unwilling for these additional facts to change your perception, maybe due to ignorance, maybe due to ego. I don't know why you are like that, but it is weak and it is foolish to let your bias get the best of you like that. You are also deceitful - an example: never once did I state I was opposed to shotguns being used at short range, I am opposed your perception that shotguns can ONLY be used at short range effectively, which is what you claimed when you claimed anyone not using shotguns as per your description, by closing the gap and shooting enemies dead-on, is doing it wrong. An ignorant and foolish statement. I said from the very first time you presented the usage list that usage is based on many factors, not strength alone. Popularity is not an accurate measurement of strength. It is simply a measurement of popularity and yet you keep appealing to popularity. It's laughable. Your reason for opposing paper DPS originally was objectively wrong, as you claimed it accounted for max Viral procs, which it doesn't. Another learning experience you missed. Reasons like these exemplify why debating someone like you is a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillyRaccune Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: I don't quite understand how you thought you could misquote my own post, with the proof of your misquote in the very quote you showed. This is exactly why I stopped communicating at them. They seem educated and genuine about their beliefs, but they aren't looking at the big picture and just want to be right. Part of me thinks they simply don't understand what we are trying to communicate to them. It might explain the condescending attitude. 2 hours ago, Teridax68 said: which is why I would support their removal in favor of measures that would actually address overpowered AoE weapons. Do you mean removing the AoE weapons from the arsenal? It would be a bit of a downer, but I guess I could get used to it. I would rely more on warframe abilities, that's for sure. ___ Regarding the original post, I think Death Punishment on a blackout zone would be extreme. I think a number of players might avoid Gas City missions as a result of that change. It would also discourage any parkour because it would be too "risky". And at least one player pointed out how false-positives appear in Void Challenge Rooms. I accidentally bullet jump too high and snap my neck on the ceiling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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