Out of bounds, self damage and risk

[(XBOX)GigaZumbi001]

3 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Self damage was removed for two reasons:

1. Teammates and pets can walk in front of your projectiles and get you hurt or killed. This was too unpredictable to be considered risk and always an issue but Kuva Bramma made it more obvious.

2. To prevent Warframes from intentionally damaging themselves to proc buffs.

Also preventing self-damage rad procs for griefing

[(XBOX)CxrpusPrime]

Falling off the map kills you? Sure, let's make Primed Sure Footed even stronger.

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Do you mean removing the AoE weapons from the arsenal? It would be a bit of a downer, but I guess I could get used to it. I would rely more on warframe abilities, that's for sure.

Oh no, not at all, I would hate the idea of outright removing weapons as well. What I meant more was nerfing the AoE weapons that were specifically causing problems, without doing the same to AoE weapons that are in line with other, non-AoE weapons. The Bramma for example could use a reduction to its damage per shot, and maybe its firing speed: the net result should still aim for a strong weapon, just not a weapon so strong that it blows most of the competition out of the water.

10 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

___

Regarding the original post, I think Death Punishment on a blackout zone would be extreme. I think a number of players might avoid Gas City missions as a result of that change. It would also discourage any parkour because it would be too "risky". And at least one player pointed out how false-positives appear in Void Challenge Rooms. I accidentally bullet jump too high and snap my neck on the ceiling!

Exactly, this is pretty much the exact reason why I think that would be a horrible idea. One of the greatest strengths of our parkour system is the freedom it gives us: we try out new routes and take risks because if we do fall into a pit or take a hard landing after falling from a great height, it inconveniences us without majorly hurting us (unless a crowd of high-level enemies are attacking). If we were to be punished for that, I don't think we'd be using parkour nearly as much. Operators already I think give an indication of how bad it feels to have fall damage in Warframe, and I'd rather not have punishments for "bad" parkour, let alone cases where we accidentally trigger poorly-placed boundaries as you mentioned.

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I did care, when I over-estimated you. Then came all the nonsense from you exposing how little you understand about game mechanics and how willing you are to overlook evidence that invalidates your claims. Now I don't care.

Indeed, you don't care so much that you continue to insist, at length and over several posts, that you don't care. You do realize that gives the opposite impression, right?

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Warframe Alpha test 2012. Plenty of open areas shown. You can use this evidence to say: "Hey you know what, I was wrong. I'm glad I learned something that changed my perspective", or you can keep doing what you've been doing. Up to you whether you want to grow in knowledge or remain closed to it.

Open areas... where? The tileset is full of narrow corridors and very little distance between the player character and enemies. Do you really think this is well-suited for explosive self-damage?

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Facts were presented to you and you ignored it. What I'm saying is I don't care about your perception: Your perception is biased, skewed and based on only specific facts. That's not the real problem though. The real problem is that you, as a person, is unwilling to accept facts you overlooked and/or were not aware of and unwilling for these additional facts to change your perception, maybe due to ignorance, maybe due to ego. I don't know why you are like that, but it is weak and it is foolish to let your bias get the best of you like that.

Which facts? As it stands, what you presented as "facts" were a collection of mistakes, deliberate distortions, and meaningless numbers devoid of context and practical applications. You have been caught lying multiple times, and even here continue to merely repeat the same debunked lies rather than engage a topic you no longer seem particularly interested in discussing. You launch into yet another tirade about how I'm "unwilling to accept facts", yet as now multiple people have pointed out to you, that is pure projection: whereas I have relied on official game data which was corroborated by sources even you listed, you have rejected these actual facts outright with no justification. You have made numerous attempts to obfuscate or warp the truth, including in your immediate post above where you embarrasingly tried and failed to quote mine me. It's not even about self-damage in Warframe anymore, and you have long ceased to discuss the matter: you just want to appear right, no matter what, and it is that mentality which has sunk your position from the beginning.

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You are also deceitful - an example: never once did I state I was opposed to shotguns being used at short range, I am opposed your perception that shotguns can ONLY be used at short range effectively, which is what you claimed when you claimed anyone not using shotguns as per your description, by closing the gap and shooting enemies dead-on, is doing it wrong. An ignorant and foolish statement.

You claimed that one had to exert some form of predictive aiming with shotguns, a claim that was idiotic on a number of levels, not least because shotguns are best used at close ranges where aiming becomes less of a factor. The fact that you took issue with this statement so much you jumped on it in an attempt to discredit me speaks to your own ignorance and deceitfulness, rather than mine. As further evidence that you are projecting your way through all of this, it is worth once again bringing up that your immediate previous previous reply tried to accuse me of saying something I didn't, by bringing up a quote showing exactly what I'd said -- which was not what you'd claimed. You are in no position to talk about deceit, ignorance, or ego when you stoop to such levels of incompetence and intellectual bankrupcy.

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I said from the very first time you presented the usage list that usage is based on many factors, not strength alone. Popularity is not an accurate measurement of strength. It is simply a measurement of popularity and yet you keep appealing to popularity. It's laughable.

You seem to confuse the existence of secondary factors with the complete invalidation of the data at hand which, again, shows how out of your depth you are when broaching statistics. Yes, there are some factors besides weapon strength that may place certain items higher or lower than they should be -- Nezha Prime, as you pointed out, is lower than he probably should be because he'd only released later in the year where the statistics were collected. Weapon rarity and MR requirements can also be a factor, as weapons that are more difficult to acquire or that need a higher MR to use may see less play. This is why the fact that the Ignis Wraith, a weapon inaccessible to anyone who isn't in contact with a clan who has the blueprint, and the Kuva Bramma, a MR 15 Kuva Lich weapon, are at the top of the list of primary weapons shows just how powerful they are relative to alternatives. Had you made even a modicum of effort to understand the data set you were working with, instead of petulantly dismissing it out of hand, you would have shown more aptitude with the subject matter being discussed. That would, however, have required you to change your opinion, and we can't have that, can we?

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Your reason for opposing paper DPS originally was objectively wrong, as you claimed it accounted for max Viral procs, which it doesn't. Another learning experience you missed.

As already stated, I have multiple reasons for opposing paper DPS, notably the fact that it doesn't match up to most weapons' performance in-game, but as pointed out, given that your counterargument relied on using another damage-amplifying status effect (which you seem to this day unaware of), you don't exactly have a robust criticism for that one aspect of my stance you chose to focus on to the deliberate ignorance of all the others.

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Reasons like these exemplify why debating someone like you is a waste of time.

What's especially funny about this is that it's not even the first time you say this: throughout several replies now, you've complained about how it's a waste of time to argue with me, how you don't like to do this, how you don't care -- yet here you are, doing it again, and again, and again some more. You talk about how I'm unwilling to change my opinion or accept the facts, all while bleating the same arguments that were debunked several posts ago, over and over. You talk about ego and deceit, all while demonstrating that you are willing to abandon all integrity and relevance to the very reason why you started this argument, just to massage an ego you inexplicably choose to wound again and again. This was never about self-damage or skill or the like, much less having an actual discussion over whether such mechanics are appropriate for Warframe, this was about you, and so by your own choice. All of this begs the question: what are you trying to achieve here? If your aim was to convince me or anyone else, that hasn't worked out, and if the aim is to save face, every reply you make brings you further away from that, as anyone who reads this exchange can easily see how much you've ended up embarrassing yourself by letting spite and arrogance get the best of you. If you really think all of this is a waste of time, why keep doing it?

[cute_moth.npc]

I would be okay with this or not as long as the maps were polished with no holes or weird reset zones in them. 

They're really not though.

There's the tree and a part of one pillar in the Deimos defense arena that will reset you, the vent in Orb Vallis you fall through the map with, the hole in the floor of the Grineer Saturn outdoor defense / interception arena near C, the hologram and floating signboard in the Corpus ship defense / interception that I always hit several times per mission.. those are just a few that I know of.

Some maps have hard ceilings while others are "out of bounds" if you jump too high.. this one is kinda frustrating.

Also there's just flying through or falling out of the map while using Operator, Titania and Yareli..

Then, stack that on top with the trend of teammates giving you unpredictable, insane speed boosts that are more of a hindrance than anything (Hey Volt)

With the game in it's current state, I can only really say "not today, Satan"

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

18 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

This is exactly why I stopped communicating at them. They seem educated and genuine about their beliefs, but they aren't looking at the big picture and just want to be right. Part of me thinks they simply don't understand what we are trying to communicate to them. It might explain the condescending attitude.

Do you mean removing the AoE weapons from the arsenal? It would be a bit of a downer, but I guess I could get used to it. I would rely more on warframe abilities, that's for sure.

___

Regarding the original post, I think Death Punishment on a blackout zone would be extreme. I think a number of players might avoid Gas City missions as a result of that change. It would also discourage any parkour because it would be too "risky". And at least one player pointed out how false-positives appear in Void Challenge Rooms. I accidentally bullet jump too high and snap my neck on the ceiling!

Last night I had an unusual experience in the Ceres tile set.  I was knocked off a platform in the mobile defense.  Only to discover that I could walk in the area directly below.

I thought "neat I didn't know about this".  Until a ship in the assembly line appeared from behind some sludge.  It proceeded to run me over and there were three blackout screens before I was able to stand back up and jump out. 

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Open areas... where? The tileset is full of narrow corridors and very little distance between the player character and enemies. Do you really think this is well-suited for explosive self-damage?

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Facts were presented to you and you ignored it. What I'm saying is I don't care about your perception: Your perception is biased, skewed and based on only specific facts. That's not the real problem though. The real problem is that you, as a person, is unwilling to accept facts you overlooked and/or were not aware of and unwilling for these additional facts to change your perception, maybe due to ignorance, maybe due to ego. I don't know why you are like that, but it is weak and it is foolish to let your bias get the best of you like that.

Which facts? As it stands, what you presented as "facts" were a collection of mistakes, deliberate distortions, and meaningless numbers devoid of context and practical applications. You have been caught lying multiple times, and even here continue to merely repeat the same debunked lies rather than engage a topic you no longer seem particularly interested in discussing. You launch into yet another tirade about how I'm "unwilling to accept facts", yet as now multiple people have pointed out to you, that is pure projection: whereas I have relied on official game data which was corroborated by sources even you listed, you have rejected these actual facts outright with no justification. You have made numerous attempts to obfuscate or warp the truth, including in your immediate post above where you embarrasingly tried and failed to quote mine me. It's not even about self-damage in Warframe anymore, and you have long ceased to discuss the matter: you just want to appear right, no matter what, and it is that mentality which has sunk your position from the beginning.

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You are also deceitful - an example: never once did I state I was opposed to shotguns being used at short range, I am opposed your perception that shotguns can ONLY be used at short range effectively, which is what you claimed when you claimed anyone not using shotguns as per your description, by closing the gap and shooting enemies dead-on, is doing it wrong. An ignorant and foolish statement.

You claimed that one had to exert some form of predictive aiming with shotguns, a claim that was idiotic on a number of levels, not least because shotguns are best used at close ranges where aiming becomes less of a factor. The fact that you took issue with this statement so much you jumped on it in an attempt to discredit me speaks to your own ignorance and deceitfulness, rather than mine. As further evidence that you are projecting your way through all of this, it is worth once again bringing up that your immediate previous previous reply tried to accuse me of saying something I didn't, by bringing up a quote showing exactly what I'd said -- which was not what you'd claimed. You are in no position to talk about deceit, ignorance, or ego when you stoop to such levels of incompetence and intellectual bankrupcy.

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I said from the very first time you presented the usage list that usage is based on many factors, not strength alone. Popularity is not an accurate measurement of strength. It is simply a measurement of popularity and yet you keep appealing to popularity. It's laughable.

You seem to confuse the existence of secondary factors with the complete invalidation of the data at hand which, again, shows how out of your depth you are when broaching statistics. Yes, there are some factors besides weapon strength that may place certain items higher or lower than they should be -- Nezha Prime, as you pointed out, is lower than he probably should be because he'd only released later in the year where the statistics were collected. Weapon rarity and MR requirements can also be a factor, as weapons that are more difficult to acquire or that need a higher MR to use may see less play. This is why the fact that the Ignis Wraith, a weapon inaccessible to anyone who isn't in contact with a clan who has the blueprint, and the Kuva Bramma, a MR 15 Kuva Lich weapon, are at the top of the list of primary weapons shows just how powerful they are relative to alternatives. Had you made even a modicum of effort to understand the data set you were working with, instead of petulantly dismissing it out of hand, you would have shown more aptitude with the subject matter being discussed. That would, however, have required you to change your opinion, and we can't have that, can we?

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Your reason for opposing paper DPS originally was objectively wrong, as you claimed it accounted for max Viral procs, which it doesn't. Another learning experience you missed.

As already stated, I have multiple reasons for opposing paper DPS, notably the fact that it doesn't match up to most weapons' performance in-game, but as pointed out, given that your counterargument relied on using another damage-amplifying status effect (which you seem to this day unaware of), you don't exactly have a robust criticism for that one aspect of my stance you chose to focus on to the deliberate ignorance of all the others.

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Reasons like these exemplify why debating someone like you is a waste of time.

What's especially funny about this is that it's not even the first time you say this: throughout several replies now, you've complained about how it's a waste of time to argue with me, how you don't like to do this, how you don't care -- yet here you are, doing it again, and again, and again some more. You talk about how I'm unwilling to change my opinion or accept the facts, all while bleating the same arguments that were debunked several posts ago, over and over. You talk about ego and deceit, all while demonstrating that you are willing to abandon all integrity and relevance to the very reason why you started this argument, just to massage an ego you inexplicably choose to wound again and again. This was never about self-damage or skill or the like, much less having an actual discussion over whether such mechanics are appropriate for Warframe, this was about you, and so by your own choice. All of this begs the question: what are you trying to achieve here? If your aim was to convince me or anyone else, that hasn't worked out, and if the aim is to save face, every reply you make brings you further away from that, as anyone who reads this exchange can easily see how much you've ended up embarrassing yourself by letting spite and arrogance get the best of you. If you really think all of this is a waste of time, why keep doing it?

First tileset entered after spawn has plenty of room for explosive weapons. The first enemy encountered could easily have been taken out with an explosive weapon without causing self-damage, as could the second, as could the third. The room entered at 2m47s is tighter, but enough room for explosive weapons - the first enemy there was a safe target for an explosive weapon. The room entered at 3m25 was anything but a "tight corridor", with lots of space for explosive weapons. Seems you chose to remain closed to knowledge. Oh well. Just the typical Teridax68 modus operandi.

Your reply with regards to the map set the tone for the rest of your post, which is consistent with your other replies: Nonsense, deflection, deceit, lack of knowledge with regards to game mechanics etc.

Edit: We are still at an impasse as a result. It is what it is.

[Lakais]

While I personally like the concept of personal discretion being implemented. I don't think this is how we're going to get it. The ONLY viable ways I see indiscriminate AoE damage spam in particular being addressed is through two different aspects. 
1) Mixing civilians with enemy populations who are not immune to our actions and implementing penalties that target player convenience; for example having positively alligned syndicats dropping a rank if your indiscriminate killcount becomes excessive. This would encourage discretion and trigger discipline through sheer annoyance and frustration. It is not the best option, but it is the only viable one I see without systemic reworks to some important underlying mechanics. Which brings me to:
2) Scrapping the current statistics based Critical Chance system for a location based one. In simplest terms this means the removal of Critical Hit Chance as a moddable stat and instead being a guarantee but only occuring when hitting an enemy weak point. This would hypothetically have two potentially benefitial results; A severe and clear decrease in player damage output to more reasonable levels and a shift towards skill-based combat with greater emphasis on precision. 

Personally, I am a fan of the second option. The first one only holds merrit in certain potential mission types or scenarios. While as the second option is far more flexible then some might initially assume. 

As for falling off the map, most reasonable might likely be the time-honored and equally hated Quick Time Event. You fall off a ledge into the abyss and you get a prompt to hit a few keys that results in the Frame doing some impressive void acrobatics and returning back to the closest viable ledge. Maybe with a small energy cost. And if failing the QTE, the same acrobatics but for considerable energy. And if no energy is available and the QTE is failed... well, then we can talk about further detrimental effects like loss of shields, health or even death. Edgecases are going to be the make-or-break of these types of discussions. 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 hour ago, Lakais said:

1) Mixing civilians with enemy populations who are not immune to our actions and implementing penalties that target player convenience; for example having positively alligned syndicats dropping a rank if your indiscriminate killcount becomes excessive. This would encourage discretion and trigger discipline through sheer annoyance and frustration. It is not the best option, but it is the only viable one I see without systemic reworks to some important underlying mechanics.

Something like this would be fun.  Even if it only effected the flow of the mission it self.  

Once again I am brought back to the Ceres tileset.  The Grineer workers that leave you alone unless you hit them or trigger the alarms. 

Something that shares that mechanic while having them be more than heavier armored butchers would be neat. Such as them helping and spawning tougher enemies or turning the work equipment against the player to add additional hazards. 

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

First tileset entered after spawn has plenty of room for explosive weapons. The first enemy encountered could easily have been taken out with an explosive weapon without causing self-damage, as could the second, as could the third.

The first tile is one narrow corridor surrounded by small alcoves, with a tight room below. Not only is there very little room to fire explosive weapons, your whole silly dance routine for staying out of teammates' line of fire is DOA.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The room entered at 2m47s is tighter, but enough room for explosive weapons - the first enemy there was a safe target for an explosive weapon.

The first enemy there was only a few meters away from Excalibur, and a shot hitting the railing would have caused self-damage. Again, that room is small and linear, making it not only difficult to fire explosives solo, but even more difficult to avoid shooting into allies when playing as a team.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The room entered at 3m25 was anything but a "tight corridor", with lots of space for explosive weapons.

That room is one of the largest in the tileset, and is still filled with structures and railings that are likely to cause explosives to snag near the player. The only way you are going to stay in the clear is if you stay in the elevated area and make yourself a sitting duck, or fire from one area to the other.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Seems you chose to remain closed to knowledge. Oh well. Just the typical Teridax68 modus operandi.

Look at how you're posting. You're trying to defend the validity of explosive self-damage by picking specific areas of specific tiles, even specific individual enemies, to claim that an explosive shot might have caught them without being too close. Not only is your argumentation visibly dishonest, and oriented purely towards trying to play gotcha with me than make any cogent point, the very fact that you have to be so circumstantial itself proves my point: by and large, the old Corpus Ship tileset is incredibly cramped and features only very few spaces and situations where it would not be a risk to fire an explosive. Every time you jump several minutes across the video to find one space or one enemy where it may have been a safe shot to take, you unintentionally reveal the majority of time and space where it wouldn't. Given your time spent on Warframe, you have probably played this tileset, as I have, but your wilful denial of how cramped it truly was makes you appear completely ignorant of what you're talking about.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Your reply with regards to the map set the tone for the rest of your post, which is consistent with your other replies: Nonsense, deflection, deceit, lack of knowledge with regards to game mechanics etc.

Edit: We are still at an impasse as a result. It is what it is.

And again, this is what was brought up above: you cannot stop yourself from projecting your own problems as this increasingly meaningless stream of insults. You are so desperate to try to put me down in some form that you've forgotten to make sense, and as a result your inept attacks end up sinking your own point, and whatever remains of your credibility. You are at an impasse because not only do you refuse to move on from all the mistakes you've made, you've chosen to not even discuss the topic at hand anymore, so much as engage in some sad exercise in unintentional self-humiliation. The last relevant point you made was quite a while ago, and it boiled down to you wanting self-damage because, well... you wanted it. You didn't understand why anyone else's opinion would matter next to yours, and your aggressive rejection of any facts or differing perspectives is what has kept you stagnant the whole way through. Meanwhile, this thread has continued despite you, and I've been discussing the topic with other players too, so if you want to remain stuck, that's on you.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

The first tile is one narrow corridor surrounded by small alcoves, with a tight room below. Not only is there very little room to fire explosive weapons, your whole silly dance routine for staying out of teammates' line of fire is DOA.

The first enemy there was only a few meters away from Excalibur, and a shot hitting the railing would have caused self-damage. Again, that room is small and linear, making it not only difficult to fire explosives solo, but even more difficult to avoid shooting into allies when playing as a team.

That room is one of the largest in the tileset, and is still filled with structures and railings that are likely to cause explosives to snag near the player. The only way you are going to stay in the clear is if you stay in the elevated area and make yourself a sitting duck, or fire from one area to the other.

Look at how you're posting. You're trying to defend the validity of explosive self-damage by picking specific areas of specific tiles, even specific individual enemies, to claim that an explosive shot might have caught them without being too close. Not only is your argumentation visibly dishonest, and oriented purely towards trying to play gotcha with me than make any cogent point, the very fact that you have to be so circumstantial itself proves my point: by and large, the old Corpus Ship tileset is incredibly cramped and features only very few spaces and situations where it would not be a risk to fire an explosive. Every time you jump several minutes across the video to find one space or one enemy where it may have been a safe shot to take, you unintentionally reveal the majority of time and space where it wouldn't. Given your time spent on Warframe, you have probably played this tileset, as I have, but your wilful denial of how cramped it truly was makes you appear completely ignorant of what you're talking about.

And again, this is what was brought up above: you cannot stop yourself from projecting your own problems as this increasingly meaningless stream of insults. You are so desperate to try to put me down in some form that you've forgotten to make sense, and as a result your inept attacks end up sinking your own point, and whatever remains of your credibility. You are at an impasse because not only do you refuse to move on from all the mistakes you've made, you've chosen to not even discuss the topic at hand anymore, so much as engage in some sad exercise in unintentional self-humiliation. The last relevant point you made was quite a while ago, and it boiled down to you wanting self-damage because, well... you wanted it. You didn't understand why anyone else's opinion would matter next to yours, and your aggressive rejection of any facts or differing perspectives is what has kept you stagnant the whole way through. Meanwhile, this thread has continued despite you, and I've been discussing the topic with other players too, so if you want to remain stuck, that's on you.

It appears there has been a misunderstanding - the tileset I refer to, the first tileset (not room) entered after spawn, is when the door opens at around 2m04. 

First enemy killed in the video was far enough when the first shot was fired to kill it safely with most explosive weapons. If a player was sporting something like a Bramma with Primed Firestorm and was unsure whether they'd be out of range of the radial attack, they could just shoot the lockers to the right, or the roof, or slide back, or roll back and then shoot safely. Many options to kill that enemy safely with an explosive weapon. Second enemy on the lower level seen running past the corridor, where the railing could be hit with improper aim (I don't know what other railing you were talking about) - if that's a concern, just jump when releasing the shot  - it gives a far safer angle to shoot with more room for error.

As for how you see the rooms, therein lies our difference in opinion: I see tilesets with more than enough open space and more than long enough sightlines to use explosive weapons safely, you see those same tilesets and narrow corridors where you can't use explosive weapons safely. At 3m25 I see a huge open area where I can use explosive weapons easily and safely, with some structures, which I can use as cover, but the structures also mean I have to aim a little. At 3.25 you see a huge open area where you can't use explosive weapons safely, because you'd have to aim a little. What you see as difficult, I don't consider difficult for most players. That's the difference. That's been a point of discussion early on in our debate, because you think being able to use explosives in those areas require "total awareness of everything displayed on-screen, zero reaction delay, and pinpoint precision," and I don't. That's the way it is.

By the way, the viability of most weapons are circumstantial and in some circumstances, they are not viable at all. Maybe the problem is you don't realize this and as a result you believe explosive ranged weapons should be viable in almost all circumstances.

As for the rest - just your usual nonsense - don't care.

[Teridax68]

31 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

It appears there has been a misunderstanding - the tileset I refer to, the first tileset (not room) entered after spawn, is when the door opens at around 2m04.

What, you mean the narrow corridor with the low ceiling that has only one path of traversal from one end to the other? Putting aside how that's the second room after spawn, not the first, the enemy killed there was at very close range. Try a Bramma shot on that with self-damage and you'd be toast.

31 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

As for how you see the rooms, therein lies our difference in opinion: I see tilesets with more than enough open space and more than long enough sightlines to use explosive weapons safely, you see those same tilesets and narrow corridors where you can't use explosive weapons safely. 

Ah, so you choose to live in a fantasy world where players have ample room to move far from each other's line of fire across those tiny corridors, and kill enemies at close ranges without ever risking self-damage -- and if they do, I'm sure you'll find a way to blame it on lack of skill. As several people have pointed out, that's not quite how it works, nor does anything you've cared to mention, including the absurd choreography you expect pub players to follow. If your only justification for the reinstatement of explosive self-damage is some cloud cuckoo land version of the game where self-damage never had any issues, as opposed the reality where it was hated for many valid reason, I think that in itself says enough about how seriously your request ought to be taken.

31 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

By the way, the viability of most weapons are circumstantial and in some circumstances, they are not viable at all. Maybe the problem is you don't realize this and as a result you believe explosive ranged weapons should be viable in almost all circumstances.

I like how this milquetoast reply is debunked by pretty much this entire thread: my entire point with the Bramma and Envoy was that they saw too frequent use, the very existence of disproportionate weapon usage rates shows that the viability of most weapons is not circumstantial, and you yourself tried to argue that all explosive weapons were too powerful on paper DPS alone (plus conditionals), itself a circumstantial stat dependent on a variety of factors. Strange how you've decided to hold onto those theoretical numbers despite that...

31 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

As for the rest - just your usual nonsense - don't care.

Is this Silligoose for "Even I know that trying to answer these points will embarrass me, so I won't bother"?

[Silligoose]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

What, you mean the narrow corridor with the low ceiling that has only one path of traversal from one end to the other? Putting aside how that's the second room after spawn, not the first, the enemy killed there was at very close range. Try a Bramma shot on that with self-damage and you'd be toast.

Ah, so you choose to live in a fantasy world where players have ample room to move far from each other's line of fire across those tiny corridors, and kill enemies at close ranges without ever risking self-damage -- and if they do, I'm sure you'll find a way to blame it on lack of skill. As several people have pointed out, that's not quite how it works, nor does anything you've cared to mention, including the absurd choreography you expect pub players to follow. If your only justification for the reinstatement of explosive self-damage is some cloud cuckoo land version of the game where self-damage never had any issues, as opposed the reality where it was hated for many valid reason, I think that in itself says enough about how seriously your request ought to be taken.

I like how this milquetoast reply is debunked by pretty much this entire thread: my entire point with the Bramma and Envoy was that they saw too frequent use, the very existence of disproportionate weapon usage rates shows that the viability of most weapons is not circumstantial, and you yourself tried to argue that all explosive weapons were too powerful on paper DPS alone (plus conditionals), itself a circumstantial stat dependent on a variety of factors. Strange how you've decided to hold onto those theoretical numbers despite that...

Is this Silligoose for "Even I know that trying to answer these points will embarrass me, so I won't bother"?

You might be toast if you tried that shot with self-damage on, I wouldn't, because I'd use one of the various tactics available mentioned if the first enemy didn't die to the first shot, which could kill the first enemy safely. Beginners might blow themselves up, but average players wouldn't, because they'd use one of the other options available.

We see it differently because we are at different levels, as is the case with shotguns, as is the case with hitscan weapons, as is the case with tactical play and positioning, as is the case with pretty much everything we debated. Given your claimed playtime exceeding that of a beginner's, you most likely still linger around the beginner level of play, because you keep yourself closed off to growth due to the various aspects of your personality already mentioned. It is what it is.

We've reached an impasse as a result. Enjoy the game Tenno. 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

You might be toast if you tried that shot with self-damage on, I wouldn't, because I'd use one of the various tactics available mentioned if the first enemy didn't die to the first shot, which could kill the first enemy safely. Beginners might blow themselves up, but average players wouldn't, because they'd use one of the other options available.

We see it differently because we are at different levels, as is the case with shotguns, as is the case with hitscan weapons, as is the case with tactical play and positioning, as is the case with pretty much everything we debated. Given your claimed playtime exceeding that of a beginner's, you most likely still linger around the beginner level of play, because you keep yourself closed off to growth due to the various aspects of your personality already mentioned. It is what it is.

We've reached an impasse as a result. Enjoy the game Tenno. 

It is interesting that you would rely so much on casting aspersions on my level of experience and skill when, once again, my playtime is more than double yours, a fact you can easily verify by checking my profile in-game, and by that same evidence I have achieved significantly more in-game than you have. I am pointing out how those tilesets are excessively cramped because I have gone through those tilesets hundreds of times, and so have enough experience to know what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, not only do you insist on bringing attention to our relative skill and experience levels when the independently verifiable evidence is not on your side, you continue to insist that there is no problem because you, and you specifically, are this self-proclaimed Skilled Player^TM, and anyone who doesn't see Warframe through the same twisted lens you do must be a noob. It is a hilariously childish mentality that says nothing, goes nowhere, and doesn't actually give you the airs of superiority you so desperately want for yourself. Your choice to make this discussion into a personal slapfight between you and the rest of the world is what puts you at an impasse.

 

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It is interesting that you would rely so much on casting aspersions on my level of experience and skill when, once again, my playtime is more than double yours, a fact you can easily verify by checking my profile in-game, and by that same evidence I have achieved significantly more in-game than you have. I am pointing out how those tilesets are excessively cramped because I have gone through those tilesets hundreds of times, and so have enough experience to know what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, not only do you insist on bringing attention to our relative skill and experience levels when the independently verifiable evidence is not on your side, you continue to insist that there is no problem because you, and you specifically, are this self-proclaimed Skilled Player^TM, and anyone who doesn't see Warframe through the same twisted lens you do must be a noob. It is a hilariously childish mentality that says nothing, goes nowhere, and doesn't actually give you the airs of superiority you so desperately want for yourself. Your choice to make this discussion into a personal slapfight between you and the rest of the world is what puts you at an impasse.

Funny thing is, I don't consider myself especially skilled. That's why I'm confident average players would to be able to handle a mechanic such as self-damage and employ tactics to be effective with explosive weapons, even with self-damage.

MR doesn't equal skill. Playtime doesn't equal skill. I wouldn't be surprised if there are MR5's running around in the game that could wipe the floor with both of us in terms of skill. The views you expressed with regards to game mechanics and the gaps in game mechanic understanding is what leads me to believe you aren't quite on par with the average player. If you have some videos scattered about showing your play, link 'em. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

We don't agree, on many things. So be it - an impasse it is. You do you, Tenno.

[Teridax68]

41 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Funny thing is, I don't consider myself especially skilled. That's why I'm confident average players would to be able to handle a mechanic such as self-damage and employ tactics to be effective with explosive weapons, even with self-damage.

MR doesn't equal skill. Playtime doesn't equal skill. I wouldn't be surprised if there are MR5's running around in the game that could wipe the floor with both of us in terms of skill. The views you expressed with regards to game mechanics and the gaps in game mechanic understanding is what leads me to believe you aren't quite on par with the average player. If you have some videos scattered about showing your play, link 'em. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

We don't agree, on many things. So be it - an impasse it is. You do you, Tenno.

The thing is, though, not only have you relied on your own claims about your skill as an argument for self-damage (it is, in fact, your only defense of it), you have continually relied on placing me and the overwhelming majority of players underneath your perceived level of skill, all because we gave valid reasons for why self-damage isn't fun or pleasant. Throughout this entire argument, you have attempted to aggrandize yourself at the expense of others, while demonstrating exceptional ineptitude at every turn, and even now you make excuses when called out on your BS. Again, I have to cite the Dunning-Kruger effect, because your grandiose claims about how much better you are than me and others are directly proportionate to the complete failures you've made at even just the basics throughout this discussion, and how short your credentials fall relative to said claims. Perhaps this is why this argument is so personal to you, because you have built the validity of self-damage around your opinion of yourself as a player: to you, self-damage is good because you have the skill to not suffer from it (a toxic and elitist mentality in and of itself), but if self-damage isn't actually good to have around... well, what would that say about you?

This is why I'd advise against arguing from your own skill, both to save yourself the embarrassment and to construct a healthier basis from which to argue: you'll notice that I haven't argued from my own claims about my skill, or even all that much from personal experience. Instead, I cited consensus, independently verifiable game statistics, and DE's own design history, factors that go way beyond myself. Even if I did suck at this game, unlike you, that wouldn't change the validity of my point. I'm not arguing to inflate my ego or out of desperation to prove how much better I am than anyone else, I'm arguing against the return of a feature that, by and large, did not make the game more fun for most people. I'd say that's a much healthier basis for feedback than arguing to bring back that unpopular mechanic just to be the one who doesn't suffer from it (or so you claim). So long as you continue to argue purely from your own personal preferences and delusions, you will continue to stagnate.

[Silligoose]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The thing is, though, not only have you relied on your own claims about your skill as an argument for self-damage (it is, in fact, your only defense of it), you have continually relied on placing me and the overwhelming majority of players underneath your perceived level of skill, all because we gave valid reasons for why self-damage isn't fun or pleasant. Throughout this entire argument, you have attempted to aggrandize yourself at the expense of others, while demonstrating exceptional ineptitude at every turn, and even now you make excuses when called out on your BS. Again, I have to cite the Dunning-Kruger effect again, because you continually make grandiose claims about how much better than me and others, all while failing completely at even just the basics, and while demonstrating credentials far less impressive than you'd been trying to make them. Perhaps this is why this argument is so personal to you, because you have built the validity of self-damage around your opinion of yourself as a player: to you, self-damage is good because you have the skill to not suffer from it (a toxic and elitist mentality in and of itself), but if self-damage isn't actually good to have around... well, what would that say about you?

This is why I'd advise against arguing from your own skill, both to save yourself the embarrassment and to construct a healthier basis from which to argue: you'll notice that I haven't argued from my own claims about my skill, or even all that much from personal experience. Instead, I cited consensus, independently verifiable game statistics, and DE's own design history, factors that go way beyond myself. Even if I did suck at this game, unlike you, that wouldn't change the validity of my point. I'm not arguing to inflate my ego or out of desperation to prove how much better I am than anyone else, I'm arguing against the return of a feature that, by and large, did not make the game more fun for most people. I'd say that's a much healthier basis for feedback than arguing to bring back that unpopular mechanic just to be the one who doesn't suffer from it (or so you claim). So long as you continue to argue purely from your own personal preferences and delusions, you will continue to stagnate.

I didn't blow myself up very often at all and very rarely stagger myself with explosive weapons now, without Primed Sure Footed or Status Immunity, not because I consider myself especially skilled, but because I learned the mechanics through trial and error and now I employ adequate tactics. Most players can do this. Those who can't, are objectively worse than average in that aspect. There was no need to coddle those players by replacing self-damage with self-stagger, which can also be bypassed. Not everyone can snipe effectively either. No need to give every sniper rifle a homing mechanic to coddle those who can't snipe.

Many don't learn to use explosive weapons effectively now, because DE decided to let self-stagger, the new balancing mechanic  for explosive weapons, be bypassed by mechanics such as Status Immunity or almost always (99.99%) be bypassed by Primed Sure Footed. This has lead to a massive imbalance, which is not healthy to the game. Much in the same way that Melee's OP effectiveness was not healthy for the game due to how unbalanced it was.

My personal preference is better balance. That's why I argue for self-damage, or even for self-stagger to bypass Status Immunity and knockdown resistance. 

Your source and argument regarding explosive weapon power is based on an Appeal to Popularity. It is not valid as a result. No need for me to say anything more than that.

[Teridax68]

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I didn't blow myself up very often at all and very rarely stagger myself with explosive weapons now, without Primed Sure Footed or Status Immunity, not because I consider myself especially skilled, but because I learned the mechanics through trial and error and now I employ adequate tactics. Most players can do this. Those who can't, are objectively worse than average in that aspect. There was no need to coddle those players by replacing self-damage with self-stagger, which can also be bypassed. Not everyone can snipe effectively either. No need to give every sniper rifle a homing mechanic to coddle those who can't snipe.

Many don't learn to use explosive weapons effectively now, because DE decided to let self-stagger, the new balancing mechanic  for explosive weapons, be bypassed by mechanics such as Status Immunity or almost always (99.99%) be bypassed by Primed Sure Footed. This has lead to a massive imbalance, which is not healthy to the game. Much in the same way that Melee's OP effectiveness was not healthy for the game due to how unbalanced it was.

Interesting how in response to being called out on your elitism and pointless attempts at aggrandizing yourself, you prove my point by doing exactly that, as if on cue. Clearly, whether or not most players could avoid blowing themselves up is irrelevant, as the mechanic was almost universally hated. Moreover, you sink your point here again, since if the majority of players were hardly affected by self-damage, what point would there be to reinstating it?

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

My personal preference is better balance. That's why I argue for self-damage, or even for self-stagger to bypass Status Immunity and knockdown resistance. 

And, as a result of this, nerfing a whole bunch of weapons that don't need those nerfs. Nice balance right there. Your preference is clearly not based on balance, it's based on a need to feel better than others, and so by inflicting an unpleasant mechanic upon everyone that you can subsequently claim to be too good to be affected by. No thanks.

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Your source and argument regarding explosive weapon power is based on an Appeal to Popularity. It is not valid as a result. No need for me to say anything more than that.

I agree, you have no need to saying anything further, as just this encapsulates both your fundamental misunderstanding of statistics, and of appeals to popularity. If you refuse to accept the validity of facts and data that go against your opinions, you are ill-equipped to have any discussion rooted in any sort of evidence.

[LillyRaccune]

  

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

Any specific word or phrase that led to that interpretation?

I unblocked you so I could reply properly. You say things that consist of "I am better, you are worse" and talk about discerning players that play your way and inexperienced players that do not play your way. This is why you have a condescending tone and are full of ego. BTW you even said that DE isn't doing their job right because shotguns "aren't coded properly", I suppose you are an expert programmer too?

You are perfectly allowed to tell people how you disagree with them, but putting yourself over others is not acceptable in civilized conversation. Have a nice life.

The following is from only four posts you have made that show your bad attitude:

56 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I employ adequate tactics. Most players can do this. Those who can't, are objectively worse than average in that aspect. There was no need to coddle those players

58 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Many don't learn to use explosive weapons effectively now,

58 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

My personal preference is better balance.

59 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Your source and argument

Spoiler

  

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

I did suggest such a mechanic

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

I'm not as adherent to the coddling mechanics as others

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

saw how wrong you were and here we are

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

you are just transparent and predictable. I have done such tests in-game.

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

If you don't get, then you don't get it.

I do predict spread across distances.

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

Oh, you really don't get it.

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

Given your admission to only very basic understanding of how to use a shotgun in Warframe, I'll try to keep this fairly simple,

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

Those are some of the basics with regards to relative positioning. There's more you can do

 

On 2021-10-08 at 6:00 PM, Silligoose said:

Those are the basics. They are not hard

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

seems complicated to some people when they start, since they are unfamiliar with the multi-tasking

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

They may erroneously imagine it would take too much thinking

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

It seems complicated if you are unfamiliar with the basics.

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

is coded to deviate no more than, for example, 5 degrees from the centre point of aim

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

thus controls where the spread cone is positioned,

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

When it comes to spread, RNG is at the mercy of the player, not the other way around.

 

On 2021-10-09 at 7:53 PM, Silligoose said:

This assumes proper coding of course.

 

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

a player controls where the spread cone falls, thus controlling where shotgun pellets can potentially hit.

 

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

including discerning how other players use their frames and weapon

 

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

I don't know why my experience differs so greatly from other players with regards to teammates reviving one another.

 

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

I'm sure there are people who may start playing Warframe and feel the movement system is complicated, since they are unfamiliar

 

On 2021-10-10 at 3:48 AM, Silligoose said:

I don't know why my experience differs so greatly from other players' experiences, but I hope you get more teamplay-oriented teammates in future missions.

 

 

 

[Silligoose]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Interesting how in response to being called out on your elitism and pointless attempts at aggrandizing yourself, you prove my point by doing exactly that, as if on cue. Clearly, whether or not most players could avoid blowing themselves up is irrelevant, as the mechanic was almost universally hated. Moreover, you sink your point here again, since if the majority of players were hardly affected by self-damage, what point would there be to reinstating it?

And, as a result of this, nerfing a whole bunch of weapons that don't need those nerfs. Nice balance right there. Your preference is clearly not based on balance, it's based on a need to feel better than others, and so by inflicting an unpleasant mechanic upon everyone that you can subsequently claim to be too good to be affected by. No thanks.

I agree, you have no need to saying anything further, as just this encapsulates both your fundamental misunderstanding of statistics, and of appeals to popularity. If you refuse to accept the validity of facts and data that go against your opinions, you are ill-equipped to have any discussion rooted in any sort of evidence.

Whether or not players could avoid blowing themselves up is very relevant - if most can avoid self-damage with some tactics, which they can, the mechanic of self-damage isn't the issue, which is what I believe. The real issue was players getting one-shot, by their own weapons. What was mostly hated, was self-caused one-shot deaths. One-shot deaths are still very disliked in Warframe. The feedback against self-damage usually included the dislike for being one-shot. 

I also believe a nerf is coming to AoE. I'm not sure which form it will take, whether it will be Damage Reduction (DR) based on the amount of targets hit as with Melee's Follow Through mechanic, a radial nerf, an arming nerf or some other mechanic DE thinks up. Had self-damage numbers simply been addressed and changed so players don't one-shot themselves, but still actually take damage as a result of being within the explosion, we'd probably not have had to sit through the explosive meta and whatever balancing they do in the future, would not have to be as severe.

Feel free to continue with you Appeal to Popularity nonsense and elitism nonsense. It is hilarious, but doesn't affect me beyond a chuckle.

[Teridax68]

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Whether or not players could avoid blowing themselves up is very relevant - if most can avoid self-damage with some tactics, which they can, the mechanic of self-damage isn't the issue, which is what I believe. The real issue was players getting one-shot, by their own weapons. What was mostly hated, was self-caused one-shot deaths. One-shot deaths are still very disliked in Warframe. The feedback against self-damage usually included the dislike for being one-shot. 

And again, if most can avoid self-damage, reinserting self-damage becomes pointless. Congratulations on sinking your own argument.

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I also believe a nerf is coming to AoE. I'm not sure which form it will take, whether it will be Damage Reduction (DR) based on the amount of targets hit as with Melee's Follow Through mechanic, a radial nerf, an arming nerf or some other mechanic DE thinks up. Had self-damage numbers simply been addressed and changed so players don't one-shot themselves, but still actually take damage as a result of being within the explosion, we'd probably not have had to sit through the explosive meta and whatever balancing they do in the future, would not have to be as severe.

DE had years to implement that, yet chose to just get rid of it. Have you ever considered why?

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Feel free to continue with you Appeal to Popularity nonsense and elitism nonsense. It is hilarious, but doesn't affect me beyond a chuckle.

The problem with feigning indifference is that it doesn't work when you do it repeatedly in quick succession, while showing an exceptional degree of commitment towards the thing you claim not to care about. It is clear at this point that your defense tactic when faced against things you do not understand or have no answer for is to dismiss them, then project your ignorance onto your debating opponent, all while claiming to be too cool for school. Most people tend to grow out of that sort of behavior when they reach adulthood.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Something like this would be fun.  Even if it only effected the flow of the mission it self.  

Once again I am brought back to the Ceres tileset.  The Grineer workers that leave you alone unless you hit them or trigger the alarms. 

Something that shares that mechanic while having them be more than heavier armored butchers would be neat. Such as them helping and spawning tougher enemies or turning the work equipment against the player to add additional hazards. 

There are also solaris workers in the Ice Mines in railjack missions, but these are unable to be interacted with 

[Silligoose]

50 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

  

I unblocked you so I could reply properly. You say things that consist of "I am better, you are worse" and talk about discerning players that play your way and inexperienced players that do not play your way. This is why you have a condescending tone and are full of ego. BTW you even said that DE isn't doing their job right because shotguns "aren't coded properly", I suppose you are an expert programmer too?

You are perfectly allowed to tell people how you disagree with them, but putting yourself over others is not acceptable in civilized conversation. Have a nice life.

The following is from only four posts you have made that show your bad attitude:

  Reveal hidden contents

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't deny being condescending towards Teridax8 at all - my tone is a reflection of theirs and ramped up with received ridicule. Of course I have an ego - most everyone does: People place worth on their views, their deductions, their identity, as do I, but I don't let my ego blind me to new truths.

I wanted to know how my reply to you was interpreted as condescending.

What I said, was that spread cones are usually what is coded with regards to weapon spread in games. I believe DE does that as well, so I'm not sure why you think I said DE doesn't.

As for the "bad-attitude" examples.. I don't agree and I don't see how those are examples of a bad attitude. 

[Silligoose]

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And again, if most can avoid self-damage, reinserting self-damage becomes pointless. Congratulations on sinking your own argument.

Consider the difference in playstyles now with explosive vs playstyles when self-damage is in the game. That would be the point.

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

DE had years to implement that, yet chose to just get rid of it. Have you ever considered why?

Why implement abilities suited for afk farming, then implement mechanics to dissuade afk farming? Why allow players to stay in missions for hours on end, then punish those players with trade bans for doing so? Why give Operators the ability to heal frames better than actual healing frames can? A lot of DE's decisions are perplexing. One would have to ask them to know.

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The problem with feigning indifference is that it doesn't work when you do it repeatedly in quick succession, while showing an exceptional degree of commitment towards the thing you claim not to care about. It is clear at this point that your defense tactic when faced against things you do not understand or have no answer for is to dismiss them, then project your ignorance onto your debating opponent, all while claiming to be too cool for school. Most people tend to grow out of that sort of behavior when they reach adulthood.

You can argue 1 + 1 = 3 because most people think so. I can argue it is 2 and dismiss your argument since it is based on an Appeal to Popularity. You can keep clinging to 3 because most people think so and but I can still affirm it is 2, but also not care that you cling to 3, because I do not affirm 2 for your benefit.

[Teridax68]

39 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I don't deny being condescending towards Teridax8 at all - my tone is a reflection of theirs and ramped up with received ridicule. Of course I have an ego - most everyone does: People place worth on their views, their deductions, their identity, as do I, but I don't let my ego blind me to new truths.

I wanted to know how my reply to you was interpreted as condescending.

What I said, was that spread cones are usually what is coded with regards to weapon spread in games. I believe DE does that as well, so I'm not sure why you think I said DE doesn't.

As for the "bad-attitude" examples.. I don't agree and I don't see how those are examples of a bad attitude. 

And again with the denial of facts: you asked which parts of your replies were condescending, and were shown swathes of your own condescending drivel, including against the person you were replying to. You got exactly what you asked for, and yet still you try to wilfully ignore and rationalize your way out of acknowledging the bad attitude you've displayed in your posts. You have made a bubble around yourself that is pitiful to view from the outside.

29 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Consider the difference in playstyles now with explosive vs playstyles when self-damage is in the game. That would be the point.

What point would that be when not even one-shot damage was enough to balance the actual problem explosives? You are asking to return to a state of affairs that was patently unsuccessful at the goal you are claiming to aim for, and a watered-down version of it too. How will this balance the Bramma, pray tell?

29 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Why implement abilities suited for afk farming, then implement mechanics to dissuade afk farming? Why allow players to stay in missions for hours on end, then punish those players with trade bans for doing so? Why give Operators the ability to heal frames better than actual healing frames can? A lot of DE's decisions are perplexing. One would have to ask them to know.

Indeed, many of DE's decisions are perplexing, and the decision to remove self-damage was not one of them. There was a clear reason behind it (players hated the mechanic), it was done despite reluctance on DE's part, and it turned out a success. What is perplexing is your belief that you can convincingly push for a return to that worse state of affairs for everyone in this game purely for the sake of your own ego.

29 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You can argue 1 + 1 = 3 because most people think so. I can argue it is 2 and dismiss your argument since it is based on an Appeal to Popularity. You can keep clinging to 3 because most people think so and but I can still affirm it is 2, but also not care that you cling to 3, because I do not affirm 2 for your benefit.

That's nice, except we're not talking about pure math, we're talking about weapon dominance. The Bramma is dominant precisely because it is so overused. If it had the same stats but was hardly ever used, it would not be a problem, and we would not be having this conversation. Your silly insistence upon arguing based on paper DPS as if it were the platonic ideal of power, an argument you have yourself utterly failed to substantiate, is what makes your position here all the more ridiculous.

[Silligoose]

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And again with the denial of facts: you asked which parts of your replies were condescending, and were shown swathes of your own condescending drivel, including against the person you were replying to. You got exactly what you asked for, and yet still you try to wilfully ignore and rationalize your way out of acknowledging the bad attitude you've displayed in your posts. You have made a bubble for yourself that is pitiful to view from the outside.

I did clarify my question to that Tenno.

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

What point would that be when not even one-shot damage was enough to balance the actual problem explosives? You are asking to return to a state of affairs that was patently unsuccessful at the goal you are claiming to aim for, and a watered-down version of it too. How will this balance the Bramma, pray tell?

Instead of spamming the Bramma willy nilly as is currently the case, players would use it more tactically. Damage may still be a bit high, but a combination of a self-damage mechanic along with some sort of 10% damage nerf, would be my preference to something like a flat out 30% damage nerf or some weird DR mechanic. I prefer explosive weapons in games having good damage, but that damage comes with a risk. To each his own.

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, many of DE's decisions are perplexing, and the decision to remove self-damage was not one of them. There was a clear reason behind it (players hated the mechanic), it was done despite reluctance on DE's part, and it turned out a success. What is perplexing is your belief that you can convincingly push for a return to that worse state of affairs for everyone in this game purely for the sake of your own ego.

Agree to disagree.

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, except we're not talking about pure math, we're talking about weapon dominance. The Bramma is dominant precisely because it is so overused. If it had the same stats but was hardly ever used, it would not be a problem, and we would not be having this conversation. Your silly insistence upon arguing based on paper DPS as if it were the platonic ideal of power, an argument you have yourself utterly failed to substantiate, is what makes your position here all the more ridiculous.

We weren't only talking dominance of the Bramma, we were talking power of explosive weapons overall and maths was used to demonstrate that even "weak" MR5 explosive weapons are, in fact, more powerful than many other weapons that are more popular. You decided maths doesn't suit your narrative and deflected and ignored. 

We are going in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree and move on.