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Atlas rework concept [Refreshed with feedback!]


(PSN)Pablogamer585
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Atlas

One of the oldest Warframes of the game that follows the original Tenno design.
A saviour who destroyed a meteor the size of a city with a single punch, only to be forgotten.
Lost drifting in space after stopping the Golem.

A warrior from a by gone era that has been eroded by time
.

 

Atlas is my favourite frame, and for the longest time he was pretty bland.
I do admit I haven't played Warframe for as long as he has been out, but that doesn't make my take any less thoughtful.


A couple years ago, he received a rework that gave him the rubble mechanic, but that was pretty much it.
True, he can have an armour that decays, but was it truly enough to save the Titan from being one of the least played frames, alongside Limbo?
Limbo wasn't played little because his kit was bad, but because he was annoying on public squads.
Even to this date, he can still be annoying, but he is a magnific frame on his field.

Rubble Heap, an augment that started to fix one of Atlas' many issues, was the best augment Atlas ever got in 6 years since release.
It helped his annoying energy usage when enough rubble was stored, and makes him deal twice as much damage, while displacing twice as fast!

But more frames have been released since then, and all have overshadowed the colossus in any possible field without the need of augments or expensive builds.
Not necessarily all of them do absolutely everything that Atlas does better, but they do something that Atlas does, better.

 

Helminth system came earlier on this year, and it has helped several frames who have bad abilities or need some help with their kits, become a bit more useful and usable.
It also has made already great frames even better.

But Atlas falls within the first group of those frames.

 

Time has come for him to rise again, and demonstrate his might to the world.
Like cutting a geode to expose its inner gem.

 

My Atlas rework looks onto all the aspects that I think are important on the frame, comparing him to others for a better understanding of my approach to the changes that I will propose here.


This will be structured the following way, so it doesn't feel boring or tiresome to read, as I am learning bit by bit from my previous extensive posts being too much for some readers;
-First, a walk thru his temple to observe his architecture, see what aspects make him weak, and how can we focus on his strengthes too.
-Then, the reworks with visual examples that I have worked a bit on.
-Last, but not least, my rundown on why have I chosen these changes and a small talk in general.

Lettuce begin.

 

 

 

KIT ANALYSIS

Stats:

  • Atlas, normal and Prime, have the second highest base armour values in the entire game. (450 & 475)
     
  • By default he has average health, but Prime has almost double, which is actually really neat. (300 & 525)
     
  • His sprint speed is low, but that isn't really an issue for a frame like him, or in general given the mobility we have. 
    Prime has average mobility stats so nothing to comment about it. (0,90 & 1)
     
  • Good amount of energy by default, and a bit more on Prime. (225 & 262)
     
  • Atlas has average shields by default, great shields with Prime. (300 & 450)

Abilities and passive:

  • Punching fools. This is what Atlas is best known for, and honestly I think it is the only thing that people truly knows him for, which already says a lot.
     
  • Lifting a small cover that can be sent rolling towards foes. Can displace non-static entities, which is pretty helpful and fun. Barely usable though.
     
  • Petrifying. Vital to his current kit and Landslide ability, this one synergizes rather well with the rest of his abilities. It is the best way to generate rubble.
     
  • Summoning two friendly rock clusters that also punch fools. They have mediocre stats, but can cause a distraction if needed. Really mediocre for a last-unlock ability.
     
  • Can't be knocked down while on ground. Simply one of the best QoL passives in the entire game imo.
    Rubble is his second passive and it allows for healing by killing petrified foes, and gaining extra armour which is capped at 1400.

Augments:

  • Path of Statues. You can petrify people behind you for an unknown reason.
    Given Landslide is an AoE punch that can stun lock with some luck, no one is expected to walk behind you while you're punching someone else. Terrible augment.
     
  • Tectonic Fracture. You can put three walls, but can't be petrified or roll. It is quite okay, but since ability is not good, it ultimately sucks too.
     
  • Ore Gaze. An actual useful augment that scales off Power Strength!
    However, the base percentage is too low, the Codex scan feature is completely out of place, and generally Petrify is too expensive to be casted repeteadly.
     
  • Titanic Rumbler. Summons 1 Rumbler instead of 2, and it is bigger and tougher. That's all.
     
  • Rumbled (From Conclave). Another super fun augment, you become a weird cluster of rocks that can't jump and throws explosive pebbles.
    Jello Meister has a really complete video on it that I recommend, but for Void's sake, don't "fix" (nerf) the features he shows. The combination is complex, deserves to be powerful.
     
  • Rubble Heap. The best of all his augments, and it is for his passive, feels like a bad joke that the augment that affects his passive is the one that helps him the most.

Conclusion:

  1. In general, Atlas at base is very normal, with the exception of his armour being more than most. His Prime is a really great upgrade that allows him to survive better.
    Comparing all his stats to other normal Warframes, these are nothing spectacular, but Prime to Prime, he is surely one of the best.
     
  2. Ability wise, he has damage, defense and CC, which pretty much are the meta in Warframe, yet he is not even close to being great on any of those, excluding raw damage.
    In technical terms, he should be one of the best Warframes for any kind of mission, an all rounder, due to his kit having all these, but he isn't because those abilities are not good enough.

    Which leaves us with? Only damage.
    Landslide, his first ability, happens to be his best in spite of its bad base stats. Normally you build all for it and petrify, which stills benefits his other abilities even if you wont use them.
     
  3. And regarding Augment mods, it is well known most augment mods in the game are "niche" or absolutely lackluster, and take one space on our builds that migth be important.
    Atlas is no exception to this trend, but Rubble Heap actually is a great augment, one of the best in the game I'd say, and fits on most builds.

    One way or another I would agree with adding an augment slot on all frames, and removing the cap cost of augments so they can fit on builds without the need of taking space physically, and affecting capacity.

 

 

 

 

THE PROPOSAL

Stats:

  • While Atlas has good stats, there is a part of his kit I disagree with, shields.
    Atlas, similar to Valkyr, has amazing armour, but also makes usage of shields, which collides with my concept of a Titan and a Berserker.

    I personally would remove shields on both, just like Nidus and Inaros, and crank up base health and armour values so that they have a more accurate feeling to their descriptions.
    Velitria made a really good post on how to rework Valkyr, and I am following a bit on his steps by focusing more on unique mechanics usage, instead of a plain design that uses energy.
    Lucky us, Atlas already has a unique mechanic/resource, rubble.

    On his article, Velitria proposed the following changes Valkyr stats:
    -750 health, 900 for Prime
    -150 shield for both
    -750 armour, 1000 for Prime
    -Take out energy
    -Add Rage as a new type of thing for her abilities
    -And speed her up to 1.3 sprint speed, so she felt more Berseker and feline-like.

    But, since this has been a long going disscussion about giving Warframes better base stats so that we do not have the need of having a damage reduction ability on almost each squishy frame, I personally would go even further and give her more health and armour than what he has planned. After all, outside of Hysteria's invulnerability, or Paralysis' slowdown, she won't take many shots out of any "Hard/Endgame" enemies before collapsing into a cat loaf. So I will do the same for Atlas, and if I could Chroma too. And no, upgrading most frame from 15 armour to 125 did no difference DE.

    These three frames are like the Pillar men from JoJos, they deserve better treatment (stats and ability wise) for the concepts they have.

    So, Atlas stats would go as following:
    • 300 health/750 health for base, 525/1250 health for Prime
    • Shields: I want to remove them and make Atlas a total bastion, but I comprehend people who does Endurance runs like Knight Frame or CourageousBoss, would like to still have shield gating, so for the sake of making both parties happy, it will be like this:
      • 75/150 for regular Atlas, 0 for Prime. Why this? Because in the end, Primes are a stat upgrade to the "production" versions, but the abilities are still the same, so it is unaffected.
    • 800 for base, 1000 for Prime.
    • Same energy, Atlast has a very fine energy pool.
    • No changes to sprint either.
    • Rubble will play a bigger role now.

 

 

Abilities & Augments:

Landslide & Tremors

Landslide is almost fine, for a first ability, that is. (+Tremors!)

Landslide is a simple yet powerful and super fun power punch that most Atlas builds revolve around.
Similar to Excalibur's Slash Dash, this ability is like a glimpse of power of Atlas Exalted weapon, but unlike Excal, Atlas cannot unleash the full potential of his, or can he?
I've tweaked Landslide's augment so that it can be interesting and useful.


                                                                                                           Seismic_Pulse_Augment.png


Introducing Seismic Pulse, a perfect augment for one of Atlas' problems, enemy grouping.
Normally people would put Ensnare to help Atlas with that, so I though why not adding such a needed QoL change, as an augment? The mod is pretty straightforward, you punch, and on 300% of the punch's range, enemies get dragged to you. Yes, this does work with the combo area increase, so the more you punch, the more enemies you'll cluster together to petrify and repeat the process.

At first I had thought of adding a second augment to Landslide, but I felt it would be too much and honstly I have no idea on what extra could it get.
While I like to create new augments, Atlas already has the most augments in the entire game if am not mistaken (6), so adding more would be kind of chaotic for build purpouses, as if every one were to be useful or feel mandatory to equip, you'll end up with a build made out of augments alone, which we already know never happens.

It would also rise controversy for some might say I am too biased due to Atlas being my main and favourite frame, so, lets do things right.
 

Spoiler

There was this idea of adding a super rare reward to "Endgame content" that allowed us to insert augments as part of the frames, without taking a physical place on the build.
This idea is both good and bad in my eyes, as some abilities behave too differently without their augments, Chromatic blade for example, and it would limitate "build variety" which seems to be an argument DE loves to bring up, in spite of making some things only be one-way viable, or really-few-ways-viable, but at the same time it would solve the massive issue augment mods are.

If it were by me, I would make it to be a mixture of that idea, with the current Tenno focus schools' UI, which is really clean and calming to the eyes.
Will address this on another post, this is not the place or moment.

It already happened by the way! :D

Find more about Augment Da'ats here.



Now then, back to Seismic Pulse, why would you equip it instead of subsuming Ensnare on Atlas?
Punches will send foes flying even if they get dragged to you, so it would be redundant or ultimately useless to equip this augment!
It would take a space on the build (Unless the aforementioned ability tree, separated from the modding UI were to be implemented) whereas Khora's ability would simply replace one of his useless abilities without taking space on the build physically!

Here's why; I couldn't get to fit all the text I wanted on the augment all that well because my editing/photoshopping skills are pretty untrained, but the third punch (The one that sends people flying and has the most range) will also have a chance to petrify enemies within its AoE, up to 30%.
At first I had thought of making it 50% but that would render Petrify to be completely unused, and that is not the plan, I want to make all of his abilities usable, and used.

I would also give an increase to the base combo duration of Landslide by default, but no more changes for the ability as it is fine.

 


After some debating in the comments, I am adding Tremors to Landslide.
For those who didn't see the original post, Tremors would have replaced Rumblers partially, as it is an Exhalted weapon that in addition summoned Rumblers alongside, now no more.

Now, because I want to keep part of that combination, Tremor's heavy attacks will only be doable when Rumblers are summoned. Not that many of us do Exhalted melees heavy attacks or even heavy attack builds for them, dont we? So, going over to Tremors now:


Introducing Tremors, Atlas' new exalted weapon that break and shatter the battlefield!

Tremors: Atlas covers his forearms and fists with sharp and sturdy geodes that allow him to deal massive damage.

Stats:

Spoiler

Base stats (at 100% strength), mods that work on it, and other clarifications:

Built-in Shattering Impact

1400 total damage, same as the third hit from Landslide.
-700 impact
-500 slash
-200 puncture

26% Status Chance
40% Critical Chance
x4 Critical Multiplier

Attack speed of 1.00

Range of 1.80m

Stats-wise, this is a very strong exalted melee, but unlike exalted Sword, Serene Storm, or Primal Rage, it has way less range and no wave-type/wall piercing ranged attacks.
It is meant to get up close and personal to your foe, and decimate it, typical of a brawler, and also my type of fighting.

Rumblers' attacks do follow these stats too.

As for modding;
Blood Rush, Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds do work on this melee. As you will be up close, getting combo won't be an issue to push the damage even further.

Stance:

Spoiler

BLEAK TITAN

Eroded Peaks
(Standing still)
100% | 100% | 200% | 400%🔨
Last hit knocks down target, opens to ground finishers.
3.5s

Forgotten Avalanche
(Moving forward) [S=Slam]
200% S | 200% S | 400% S + lift
Last hit lifts enemies within a 4m radius.
2.0s

Accelerated Shrapnel
(Moving+Blocking)
300%📌 | 300%📌 | 200% 🔁| x4 500%🩸

First two hits generate major concussion on target, third hit causes massive stagger that opens to finishers.
4.0s

Shattering Scourge
(Blocking)
400% x2🔁| 400% x2🔁| 200% S
Draws enemies towards Atlas
3.0s

Unavoidable Ruination
(Heavy attack)
700% S + Ranged + Lift 💥🔨🩸[Multi target]
Uses both Golems*
Fracture the terrain in front of you by hammering it with boths hands.
0.0s

*Golems get absorbed on the wind up of heavy attacks, increasing the size and power of Tremors. When hitting the ground, they shatter into pieces hitting everything in front of Atlas on a 10m 120º cone. Golems take 4 seconds to reassemble (each, if broke at the same time, it is 4 for both), so it cannot be spammed. Really powerful at x12.

Olympian Spear
(Sliding Heavy attack)
1200% Ranged 📌🔨
Uses one Golem*
Slide to gain momentum before spinning and throwing a massive rock spear towards a target.
0.0s

*A single Golem is absorbed during this attack, so it can be done twice in a row. If timed well, continuously on a heavy attack build.


This stance is heavily inspired by Seismic Palm and Gaia's Tragedy, so I hope that helps picture a bit better how the combos would look.


Extras:

  1. Landslide can help to close the gap between targets if needed, as it also gains 100% range when Tremors are active, for quarter the cast-cost too.
     
  2. Landslide's damage doesn't depend on your melee weapon anymore, instead, Tremors' combo counter, mods (attack speed included, finally), and other buffs, will be the ones to dictate Landslide's performance. What does this imply? That we are also upgrading Landslide's base stats to be the same ones as Tremors!
     
  3. Petrified enemies take 100% extra damage and status damage from Tremors.
     
  4. Collecting rubble reduces the cooldown of Golems by 0.5 second for each fragment.
     
  5. Unavoidable Ruination and Olympian spear can hit enemies behind regular Tectonics.
     
  6. Unavoidable Ruination can detonate Tectonics made with Tectonic Fracture doubling the effective range and travel speed of the shards


Augments:
There are no augments for Tremors.
So, Seismic Pulse will remain the only one for this dual ability.
 

 

 


Petrify

Changed Petrify to be his second ability!
The reasoning is pretty simple;
Petrify is vital to Atlas' kit, as it is the only reliable way of getting rubble, but it is too expensive to cast, if it is meant to be used as much as it feels like it does.
Changing it to the second slot aaaand reducing the energy cost to 30 by default instead of 75, and it has no rubble cost, as it is meant to be your rubble source.

We will talk more about rubble as we go on, don't worry.

What do I mean by rubble cost? Easy, now Atlas' 3rd and 4th ability do not consume as much energy, instead, they will make use of the rubble meter too, as a secondary source.
I will deepen on this as the post goes by, I am sure you, the reader, will find it fascinating.

Other than that, Petrify is another of those abilities that is perfect as it is, but you know what is not? Its augment.
Lets take a look at how have I changed Ore Gaze. 
                                                                                                           Ore_Gaze_Augment_Rework.png

Ore Gaze turns Atlas into a looter frame, and when the changes to looting frames happened, he was cited as one of the frames that would work alongside other of the same class.

According to that list, there are 4 chances of looting enemies now;
-While alive with Ivara
-On petrify with Atlas
-On kill with Khora, Wukong or Hydroid but only once as "enemies can't die multiple times"
-And on corpse with Nekros

Meaning you get (with base strength for demonstration porpouses) [54%N+65%K+100%I+25%A] close to 250% of extra loot from a single target, without any resource boosters or kitty catvat buffsif you and the bois happen to run a full loot squad.

In reality, we all know you wont see an Ivara for a looting team because even with the fastest Prowl steal, it still takes longer than just kill kill kill, so lets say a 150% loot chance.

Now, here is my question; Why does Ore Gaze have such a terrible low percentage of extra loot chance by default?

True, it is affected by strength mods, but even at 200% strength you get but as much loot chance as Nekros with 1% strength and 0 energy consuption and massive radial range.
Besides, you have to cast it each time on a group of enemies for it to work, which is very energy consuming compared to all the other looting abilities.

Even Khora's Strangledome, in spite of requiring an augment to loot, has way more loot chance, lasts for a long time, and it doesn't need to be recasted to affect more enemies!

That is why, I introduce to you to the new buffed Ore Gaze, which alongside the reduced energy cost of Petrify, turns Atlas into a really helpful looting frame for squads.
Now, why do I think this augment is balanced in spite of still being affected by strength mods? (Yes, you could get 300% loot chance!)

There are a couple factors: one of them having to expose yourself, even if it is for little to no time (Though technically you coooould fix that with a Bulkwrath!).

While it is true that with this augment you'll be a massive help on a looting squad, Atlas still requires to cast his ability directly on the enemies for it to work.
If you want the most possible loot, you'll need to have strength on the build, but at the same time you need the range so that you can hit the most enemies possible, the duration so that the effect doesn't wear off before you or your team wipes them, and the efficiency so that you can keep casting.

+On a looting squad scenario with a Dispensary+Equilibrium Khora or Equilibrium Atlas+E.Nekros with Arcane Energize, this shouldn't be too much of an issue, so you could run high   strength with moderate range and okay duration without a care in the world for efficiency.

-On a solo scenario however, you won't have this help to maintain your energy, so you will need to make the build more balanced, or rely on pet synergies such as Panzer Vulpa with the mods that allows him to generate health orbs from downed enemies. Oh, oh, you can use Dethcube's Energy Generator! After All Dethcube Prime came along Atlas Prime! :D

Even with that in mind, building for low eff even though Petrify costs less with this rework idea, is not advisable for you need to cast it rather often after you eliminate a group.
(Honestly after all the feedback I think you can build for damn high strength and no efficiency, so screw it, Atlas Looter boi now)
 

Spoiler

To note down, I know Petrify is Atlas' subsume ability, so you could turn ANY warframe into a looting frame, or make looting frames get even more loot, but then again, a loot frame never builds for strength, so it would make minimal use of it, and in the case of Khora, you'd need 2 augments at the same time which cuts the builds very shortly. (Not with Da'ats but then you'd need double Helminth subsume and that is NOT happening in my watch).

Also, Petrify should be nerfed when subsumed on other warframes, I think lesser efficiency should be the right "nerf". Personally I rather call it adjustment.

A plausible case could be Ivara, but you'll need augment, subsume, cast it and Prowl and then kill, which is rather tedious and still slower than going onslaught.



And that is how I would change Ore Gaze to stop being another niche mod, and start to make Atlas' multi-porpouse kit begin to shine on more situations!

 

 

 

Tectonics

Changed Tectonics to his third rather than removing it directly.
Tectonics is a curious ability for Atlas. Most of his kit is very offensive and attack-oriented, so what does a tiny pebble wall make among his abilities? Is Atlas perhaps a house decor in his free time? One way or another, this is the most replaced ability on him because it is the most useless too.

Lets observe how I would change Tectonics to stop being "The wally" and become "The bulkwtrath" as I have prepared a small visual example for it:
Tectonics_Rework_Visual_example.png

Now it consumes 50 energy and half rubble, nice right?

Scales really well the more rubble you have, as the formula would be:
(([{Tec.Base HP + Absorbed Damage + (Atlas' Base HP × HP Mods%) + 5 × [(Atlas' Base Armour × Mods%) + (50%/33% of current Rubble)]}] × Power Strength) × Petrify's extra 200%.

Example with a full Umbral Atlas P.(No Arcane Guardian or other mods);
(6637 + 1873 + AD +(5 × [(1389 + 50%/33% of 1400)])) × 177% × (optional) 200%
Hypotetical HP (No damage taken+ Petrify): 67.100 with 12k armour (x8.8 armour multiplier)
Same build on Frost would give:  8850 hp for 7626 armour (x8.8 armour multiplier too)
Important note, I am using Atlas P current stats not the ones for this rework. This is just for demonstration purposes.

 

Updates on Tectonics (After a lot, and I mean, a lot of discussion about it):

Holding (when casting I mean) Tectonics now rises a rock blob over you, so think of this like a rock version of Snow Globe with a small aperture on one of the sides so it is not just a perfect spherical defense, more like a PacMan. While this blob is "constructing" it absorves all the damage taken, but takes longer to build so this is even more health for it, as shown in the formula above


With these changes, Tectonics should finally be a strong and more reliable defensive ability than what it currently is.
Just in case, I added a couple explanations to justify the why of these changes 
 

Spoiler

Why change the formula? Some may ask.
"It will be too op" - "It will make other defensive frames a joke" - "That is not the answer" - "Lmao, no."

And here is my response to possible criticisim (Turns out no one cared);
Atlas is a frame with abilities that are meant to do close to everything a frame can do.
-Damage dealing with Landslide,
-CC with Petrify,
-Defend with Tectonics,
-And some more CC/Self "support" with Rumblers.

However, he lacks at almost all of these, because while it is true he can deal a good punch of damage, he requires of really expensive modding, as the stats of Landslide are mediocre at base, not even Prime upgrades that.

Someone might say; "You can use Ensnare or Breach Surge to do more damage/help his problem lol, don't make him OP for no reason".

It is true I am an Atlas main so anyone can say this post is utterly biased, but I aim to make a better Atlas in general, not just for my own liking, because honestly if it were by me I'd get rid of Tectonics and Rumblers and just slap a exalted weapon ability directly on him and be good to go. And I've talked to plenty of people who would like exalted weapon on Atlas, but lets take about that later.

I have said this previously and I will keep saying it; If a frame needs to make use of Helminth to be actually good, rather than just usable, it is not that good of a frame.

Atlas and Chroma share this bond, both are great frames, but have two abilities that suck, and more often than not get replaced, though I think Chroma can't get some abilities replaced?
Point is, sometimes instead of removing what we do not like, we have to work towards helping improve said aspect of ourselves or our loved ones.

 

Why, buff Tectonics in a way that seems irrational then?

Lets compare Tectonics to other popular defensive abilities:
-Frost's Snow Globe covers with a sphere objectives, up to 4 at the same time, and it can stack a lot of EHP, but it has limitations on higher levels due to the enemies' damage output.
-Gara's Mass Vitrify, similar to Frost's Snow Globe but stronger, can also gain more health per enemy it vitrifies. It also can deal massive damage once you stack up enough glass shards. It synergices well with other Gara abilities.
-Limbo's Cataclysm. Cataclysm, in stark contrast to Snow Globe or Mass Vitrify, cannot be broken. It is a timeless barrier of the limbo that can also stop enemies who dare enter its range when using Stasis.

Compared to the previously mentioned abilities, Tectonics right now falls beyond short.
It doesn't have the periferical defense of Snow Globe, it doesn't have the utility and damage capabilities of Mass Vitrify, and it is by far unuseful compared to Cataclysm.

The idea behind making Tectonics stronger and bigger, is so that they resemble the rock they are made of, and the Titan that creates these walls.
How come a rock in Warframe is more fragile than glass or snow?
I can comprehend it not being as incredible as a time barrier, but it feels shameful to be this weak compared to said elements.

Also, if you've done your math right, you'll see that Tectonic Fracture is pretty brutal as a frontal nuke, rather than just AoE nuke, so more possibilities open!

That is why, I made Tectonics a true bulkwrath.

Still keeps the fun factor that rolling boulders can be! Unless you happen to hold-cast a Tectonic. That one doesn't roll, it just gets replaced.


But that's not everything for Tectonics, as I have designed a second augment for it that also makes it interesting, and probably get used even more.


                                                                                                     Bulk_Up_Augment.PNG

I present to you, the new Atlas augment that gives him a nice layer of protection, Bulk Up
Bulk Up does scales off power strength, but don't focus heavily on that, as at 100% strength, you have 1% armour conversion, so at 200% 2 and so on.
Lets go over the explanation, as the rest.

With this augment, Tectonics becomes an ability that acts similarly to Mecha Pulse. It does increase by X% your final armour value, so slotting armour mods renders your final EHP even stronger.

Rubble has a bit of a flaw as for right now: Yes, it can heal Atlas, but if you are low HP, out of energy and you've got no Magus Arcane to save you, what do you do?
Running away seems the best option, but dying can also happen.
It also happens to decay a bit too fast, and the margen of rubble you need to maintain for Rubble Heap to work is quite narrow.

The solution? To become the real deal, become The Titan.
Bulk Up will consume all the rubble you have stored and add it to your modded armour, plus give a 25% of that rubble as health bonus. (Couldn't fit the text)
The infused rubble will decay at the same rate as rubble would do without the augment, so you gotta keep on killing petrified enemies and recasting it to obtain the best results.

Here is a visual representation:
Bulk_up_Augment_visual.png
Now, rubble coating will be shown as a buff, so it will be to the left of your health bar, just like Iron Skin, while the rubble counter stays in place so that one does not get confused about it.

Bulk Up allows Atlas to have greater survivability, at the cost of removing his newly improved defensive ability.
Since he won't be dealing as much damage as a Scaling Berserker Kitty, it is only fair he gets titanic tanking capabilities.



Now we have more build variety:
Focus on base health, armour and strength to create almost indestructible walls, use Tectonic Fracture for brutal terrain detonations, become a looting frame, sacrifice default health and armour by using the Bulk Up to get innate health and armour scaling the more you kill, or build your Atlas as you please!

 

 

 

 

Rumblers

There has been a lot of discussion on my end with @Steel_Rook , but I feel we have finally reached a point where we both agree it's the best outcome for this Ability.

As Atlas now has his very own melee weapon when holding the ability button of Landslide, carrying a Stat-stick is needed no more, and I don't need to replace Rumblers either.


So what's in store for the Golems?

Rumblers are getting a sustantial survivability boost and DPS boost by making their EHP be tied to Atlas' modding and then pass through a small formula¹, whereas the DPS will be tied to Tremors(Landslide) combo and its modding directly. ¹((Atlas HP * Health mods) + (Atlas Armour * Armour Mods)) * 50% of current Rubble
One small Quality of Life upgrade we made in the process was that for each blow they land this will add to your Exhalted Melee's combo counter.


One of the main upgrades, they do not require of duration mods for a timer no more, as it has been removed and only health has been left.
Think of them as a pair of rocky Celestial Twins.
 

Another thing added to Rumblers is a petrifying aura for each one, similar to Gloom, but in miniature and that instead slowly petrifies enemies within its range.
The effect of this aura has a falloff, starting from 2 meters and ending at 8.

The "Petrify Power" starts at 0-2 meters on full effect, taking a total of 4 seconds to fully petrify a target, down to 25% performance at the 8 meters mark. The Petrify speed cannot be sped up with strength mods, however, its range can be upgraded by range mods, and the fall-off reduced via duration mods.

Rumblers will focus on petrified targets first and then go after the next closest one.

 

Another thing is heavy attacks for Tremors can only be performed if Rumblers are active, as mentioned on its paragraph & spoiler. The exchange is reasoned as follows:

Spoiler

Heavy attack builds are rather popular, and I think it is important to have a mixture of normal melees and heavy attacks instead of heavy attacks or light attacks only.
Few weapons can score this goal, Pennant being one of the best examples, and I feel it's time to make some other shine by having bonuses to them, but also some penalties.

It is because of that, Tremor's heavy attacks do not consume the combo counter but instead make use of your Rumblers as "ammunition" for it.
This way, we create a less-spammy heavy attack and encourage to use the regular combos at the same time while the golem reassembles to maintain the combo counter up instead of loosing it or slotting Corrupt Charge.

But most importantly, Rumblers now absorb statuses effects affecting Atlas, and a substantial amount of the damage too (40%)[Unaffected by any mods].

As for the augments, I have decided not to touch them from the original revision I made and leave them as they were:

 

Titanic_Rumbler_Augment_Rework.png*Rumbled_Augment_Rework.png**

*Titanic Rumbler has way more AoE for the radial Petrify, and keeps its original features of dealing the damage of x1'5 Golems and lure enemies towards it like Octavia's Resonator. Downside is he is rather slow.

**One small note on Rumbled; Like I said, I actually find its current in-game stat not that bad, in spite of requiring of a crap ton of things to work effectively, but I think it can easily do much more than what it currently does. The petrifying aura will also be part of Atlas with this augment, so now YOU are the golem, and YOU chose freely who to punch. Tapping ability button still allows you to yeet rocks, and it can be deactivated by holding cast.

 

With all these changes, Rumblers should be better allies with the capacity of CCing and actually dealing damage that you finally will reckon as an actually useful ability.

 

 

THE GOLEM VERDICT

Atlas is an extremely fun Warframe that in its current state is still pretty unpopular, similar to Wukong prior to his rework. He is not a bad frame at what he does, but he surely could do better.

With all the changes I've proposed above, his kit remains the same, but now is at pair with other awesome frames while still being unique and different.
Abilities will interact more between themselves, and the results could be potentially amazing.

Not changing his kit has allowed me to think on how to improve his abilities instead of getting rid of them, which is what we do more often than now when an ability is bad.
In case that the rework were to be accepted, it would all be easier to recreate instead of starting from scrap.

The amount of different builds that are now possible with this rework makes me happy, for I am sure it will make Atlas actually be brought to missions for different purpouses than just punch fools, and I am also sure it would put a smile on the face of any DE staff that encourages "build variety".

However, not everything is perfect now. All his augments are really good after this "revision", so equipping multiple could be in the minds of many, but I don't recommend it unless Da'ats happen, as mentioned on the first spoiler of the article.

Writing and drawing all this has took me a total of 2 days, but it has been really fun doing it. [Plus all the talking from the feedback and post-edit]

If you have made it to this point, I would like to hear your opinion down in the comments below, and let me know what you would have done differently, or if you just happen to like it as it is.
I am also open to getting roasted for my drawings.

One way or another, thanks for reading.

Edited by (PSN)Pablogamer585
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On 2021-10-11 at 9:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

but unlike Excal, Atlas cannot unleash the full potential of his

Yet unlike excal's Trash Dash, this ability actually does useful stuff. You know, kills enemies. Lots of 'em. This comparison is unfair.

On 2021-10-11 at 9:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

and then say Excalibur needs a buff if this rework were to happen

Well, he does need it. He and valkyr are as much one ability frames as atlas is. Both have one good ability than you can throw on any frame now, and their remaining kit is kinda arse. Atlas at least didn't suffer a terrible fate of being made absolutely absolete by DE choosing his only good ability to be a helminth one.

 

What i'd personally want for an atlas rework:

1) leave Landslide as is. Also keep the augment that makes it do ~60% more damage as is, just fix the energy check on cast when active. Increase the requirement of rubble for it to work to 2000 (explained later).

2) current Tectonics is irredeemable. Scrap it, replace with a seismic slam - esque AoE knockdown that does a lot of damage (scales with landslide damage + enemy levels) and knocks everything down for a couple of seconds, with a visual effect that looks something like this. Each enemy hit generates DR, up to 80% total for 30 seconds base. Consumes 300 rubble.

3) Petrify - angle bump. Aside from that, honestly, whatever. It does its job fine, so fine in fact that i don't even run path of statues for extra rubble generation on my atlas - just efficiency.

4) Summmons - that's exactly where we hit the rock bottom. I can say many bad things about it (it's generally a "pay 25 energy to get 100 rubble" ability as it is now), but at the same time i think it was made this way on purpose. Probably has something to do with their pre-octavia and pre-clone anti-afk design vision or whatever.

They suck at doing damage. My opinion - keep it this way. Low damage stays. Instead, make them into utility. How? Make them into petrify bots:

1) increase their movement speed a bit - but not too much so they wouldn't just zoom around like crazy;

2) give them cleave (ability to attack multiple enemies in front of them per hit) and unique, weaker version of petrify status that will start as a 30% slow and ramps up from that to a complete gaze-like petrify over a course of 4 seconds. Enemies under this status take extra 25% during first 4 seconds, then normal petrify bonus damage, (100% or whatever it is now) from both landslide and tectonics.

3) the long awaited AI improvement  - make them constantly running around between enemies, prioritizing those that do not have petrify status. In other words, make them effectively spread it.

Passive 1 (knockdown immunity when touching ground): unchanged.

Passive 2 (rubble): rubble cap 1500 > 3000, and instead of giving you flat 1-to-1 armor, every 600 rubble represent a 'level', with each 'level' giving you some kind of bonus. For example:

1) 1000 armor;

2) 20% power, 20% range;

3) 1500 armor;

4) 10% efficiency, 25% duration;

5) 25% DR, prevents KO with a 5 minute cooldown.

 

But that's just me.

 

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hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

Yet unlike excal's Trash Dash, this ability actually does useful stuff. You know, kills enemies. Lots of 'em. This comparison is unfair.

I used this as a refence for exalted weapons :P I know Atlas' power punch is a hell of a powerhouse compared to slash dash, but the point was the capability of using Exalted sword at full potential in comparation to landslide.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

Well, he does need it. He and valkyr are as much one ability frames as atlas is. Both have one good ability than you can throw on any frame now, and their remaining kit is kinda arse. Atlas at least didn't suffer a terrible fate of being made absolutely absolete by DE choosing his only good ability to be a helminth one.

I cited Valkyr in this post precisely for that. Excal, I don't know man, I like his kit excluding radial javelin*, he was my starter frame just like many others
[*That one is baaaaad]. Some people may say Slash Dash has actual use as mobility tool, which is kinda funny, but it gets the job done.

For a starter frame I think it is fine to have a weak ability, if you compare him to Mag and Volt, they all three have the same weak 1st ability-canon.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

1)

Yeh, I didn't want any changes to landslide either, so that is why I reworked the augment only.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

2)

Damage reduction on a tonk frame... I don't know, it seems useful but it's not like he needs it if you slap Adapt. on him...
I really think my idea makes Tectonics a viable ability.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

3)

Yeh, I didn't want to make any changes to Petrify either because it is a good ability too. Reworked the augment just like Landslide for that very reason.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

4)

Ahhh, I like my idea better again for this one? I mean, we can have both your idea and mine thanks to the rework I gave to Titanic Rumbler, the only issue is AI to be honest.

hace 2 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

Passive 2

Alright, this is pretty nice, sounds useful, similar to Nidus' mutation stacking. Though if we were to get Bulk Up, maybe these buffs could scale even further? Some of your ideas synergize really well with my proposed rework honestly, that's cool :)

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

For a starter frame I think it is fine to have a weak ability

I think that being a starter is not an excuse for a frame to have a good, well-rounded kit. It's not like those two points contradict each other in any way, shape or form.

One weak ability is fine, you can swap it out now. But excal has 3 of them. There's literally not a single objective reason to use him once you're far enough into the game to be able to infuse blind on a better frame. My point is, atlas is not that great, yes, but even then he's not even remotely as bad as excal right now.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Damage reduction on a tonk frame...

I personally think it's his main weakness actually - once you go high enough level, his armor DR even with his massive (primed, if you will) health pool, enemies start doing too much damage for him. Landslide has invincibility, yes, but it's health only, so when you kill a group and need to move to another one, you're wide open and have no shield gate protecting you from randomly exploding. Roll gives 75%, but eventually even 25% starts being a problem imo. Rolling guard is a possible solution, but it's a mod slot, and i personally don't think atlas has a luxiry of having 'flex' slots like some other frames do, as his builds are pretty tight, and removing any mod feels bad (if anything, i always feel like i'm one mod slot short while building him, even though i'm using only one augment (rubble damage buff). I think he's one of those frames who'd benefit greatly from a free augment mod slot if it ever is to happen. And it just doesn't feel right when a squishy-looking frame like mesa is way tankier than a frame like atlas, a literal stone golem.

IMO extra DR solves that nicely.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Yeh, I didn't want to make any changes to Petrify either because it is a good ability too. Reworked the augment just like Landslide for that very reason.

I mostly meant energy cost from swapping. I don't think it's that bad, but again, i always run 60% efficiency at least. Although. thinking about it now, it makes sense to make it 2 instead of 3.  Makes it more in line with excal's blind or baruuk's lull. Extra loot, i don't know about that. I doubt DE will give it that. Devalues nekros (another essentially one button frame that needs a rework), requires them to carefully balance it for current drop tables, as well as balancing any feature drop tables with it in mind.  Especially if it would scale with power, as it adds even more variance that needs to be considered.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Ahhh, I like my idea better again for this one?

My reasoning behind this is pretty simple - it's the easiest way (in terms of actually coding and implementing) to keep the original ability intact (i think the idea of summoning two stone golems is pretty cool actually), and at the same time make them actually useful without making them into AFK clearers (which DE wouldn't do). Straightforward AI, effect that doesn't require damage tweaks to be good (so no risk that numbers DE give them won't be enough to matter, as well as no risk of their effectiveness falling off severely at higher levels due to crazy EHP and armor DR numbers enemies will have). If executed right, an ability like this will be good at any given level range, and in the same time it won't AFK stuff like mandachord or kong's clone, so they won't just clear rooms for you and you'd still have to actually play the game.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Bulk Up

Honestly, i'm just not a big fan of something as important being locked behind an augment. I think it should be a part of his base kit. Hence the passive. Same reason i slapped DR on base tectonics instead of making a furious javelin -like augment with the same effect.
 

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On 2021-10-10 at 7:15 PM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Atlas

One of the oldest Warframes of the game that follows the original Tenno design.
A saviour who destroyed a meteor the size of a city with a single punch, only to be forgotten.
Lost drifting in space after stopping the Golem.

A warrior from a by gone era that has been eroded by time.

 

Atlas is my favourite frame, and for the longest time he was pretty bland.
I do admit I haven't played Warframe for as long as he has been out, but that doesn't make my take any less thoughtful.


A couple years ago, he received a rework that gave him the rubble mechanic, but that was pretty much it.
True, he can have an armour that decays, but was it truly enough to save the Titan from being one of the least played frames, alongside Limbo?
Limbo wasn't played little because his kit was bad, but because he was annoying on public squads.
Even to this date, he can still be annoying, but he is a magnific frame on his field.

Rubble Heap, an augment that started to fix one of Atlas' many issues, was the best augment Atlas ever got in 6 years since release.
It helped his annoying energy usage when enough rubble was stored, and makes him deal twice as much damage, while displacing twice as fast!

But more frames have been released since then, and all have overshadowed the colossus in any possible field without the need of augments or expensive builds.
Not necessarily all of them do absolutely everything that Atlas does better, but they do something that Atlas does, better.

 

Helminth system came earlier on this year, and it has helped several frames who have bad abilities or need some help with their kits, become a bit more useful and usable.
It also has made already great frames even better.

But Atlas falls within the first group of those frames.

 

Times has come for him to rise again, and demonstrate his might to the world.
Like cutting a rock to expose its inner geode.

 

My Atlas rework looks onto all the aspects that I think are important on the frame, comparing him to others for a better understanding of my approach to the changes that I will propose here.


This will be structured the following way, so it doesn't feel boring or tiresome to read, as I am learning bit by bit from my previous extensive posts being too much for some readers;
-First, a walk thru his temple to observe his architecture, see what aspects make him weak, and how can we focus on his strengthes too.
-Then, the reworks with visual examples that I have worked a bit on.
-Last, but not least, my rundown on why have I chosen these changes and a small talk in general.

Lettuce begin.

 

 

 

KIT ANALYSIS

Stats:

  • Atlas, normal and Prime, have the second highest base armour values in the entire game. (450 & 475)
  • By default he has average health, but Prime has almost double, which is actually really neat. (300 & 525)
  • His sprint speed is low, but that isn't really an issue for a frame like him, or in general given the mobility we have. 
    Prime has average mobility stats so nothing to comment about it. (0,90 & 1)
  • Good amount of energy by default, and a bit more on Prime. (225 & 262)
  • Atlas has average shields by default, great shields with Prime. (300 & 450)

Abilities and passive:

  • Punching fools. This is what Atlas is best known for, and honestly I think it is the only thing that people truly knows him for, which already says a lot.
  • Lifting a small cover that can be sent rolling towards foes. Can displace non-static entities, which is pretty helpful and fun. Barely usable though.
  • Petrifying. Vital to his current kit and Landslide ability, this one synergizes rather well with the rest of his abilities. It is the best way to generate rubble.
  • Summoning two friendly rock clusters that also punch fools. They have mediocre stats, but can cause a distraction if needed. Really mediocre for a last-unlock ability.
  • Can't be knocked down while on ground. Simply one of the best QoL passives in the entire game imo.
    Rubble is his second passive and it allows for healing by killing petrified foes, and gaining extra armour which is capped at 1400.

Augments:

  • Path of Statues. You can petrify people behind you for an unknown reason.
    Given Landslide is an AoE punch that can stun lock with some luck, no one is expected to walk behind you while you're punching someone else. Terrible augment.
  • Tectonic Fracture. You can put three walls, but can't be petrified or roll. It is quite okay, but since ability is not good, it ultimately sucks too.
  • Ore Gaze. An actual useful augment that scales off Power Strength!
    However, the base percentage is too low, the Codex scan feature is completely out of place, and generally Petrify is too expensive to be casted repeteadly.
  • Titanic Rumbler. Summon 1 Rumbler instead of 2, and it is bigger and tougher. That's all.
  • Rumbled (From Conclave). Another super fun augment, you become a weird cluster of rocks that can't jump and throws explosive pebbles.
    Jello Meister has a really complete video on it that I recommend, but for Void's sake, don't "fix" (nerf) the features he shows. The combination is complex, deserves to be  powerful
  • Rubble Heap. The best of all his augments, and it is for his passive, feels like a bad joke that the augment that affects his passive is the one that helps him the most.

Conclusion:

  1. In general, Atlas at base is very normal, with the exception of his armour being more than most. His Prime is a really great upgrade that allows him to survive better.
    Comparing all his stats to other normal Warframes, these are nothing spectacular, but Prime to Prime, he is surely one of the best.
     
  2. Ability wise, he has damage, defense and CC, which pretty much are the meta in Warframe, yet he is not even close to being great on any of those, excluding raw damage.
    In technical terms, he should be one of the best Warframes for any kind of mission, an all rounder, due to his kit having all these, but he isn't because those abilities are not good enough.

    Which leaves us with? Only damage.
    Landslide, his first ability, happens to be his best in spite of its bad base stats. Normally you build all for it and petrify, which stills benefits his other abilities even if you wont use them.
     
  3. And regarding Augment mods, it is well known most augment mods in the game are "niche" or absolutely lackluster, and take one space on our builds that migth be important.
    Atlas is no exception to this trend, but Rubble Heap actually is a great augment, one of the best in the game I'd say, and fits on most builds.

    One way or another I would agree with adding an augment slot on all frames, and removing the cap cost of augments so they can fit on builds without the need of taking space physically, and affecting capacity.

 

 

 

 

THE PROPOSAL

Stats:

  • While Atlas has good stats, there is a part of his kit I disagree with, shields.
    Atlas, similar to Valkyr, has amazing armour, but also makes usage of shields, which collides with my concept of a Titan and a Berserker.

    I personally would remove shields on both, just like Nidus and Inaros, and crank up base health and armour values so that they have a more accurate feeling to their descriptions.
    Velitria made a really good post on how to rework Valkyr, and I am following a bit his steps by focusing more on unique mechanics usage, instead of a plain design that uses energy.
    Lucky us, Atlas already has a unique mechanic, rubble.

    On his article, Velitria proposed to give Valkyr:
    -750 health, 900 for Prime
    -150 shield for both
    -750 armour
    -1000 for Prime
    -Take out energy
    -Add Rage as a new type of thing for her abilities
    -And speed her up to 1.3 sprint speed, so she felt more Berseker and feline likewise.

    But, since this has been a long going disscussion about giving Warframes better base stats so that we do not have the need of having a damage reduction ability on almost each squishy frame, I personally would go even further and give her more health and armour than what he has planned. After all, outside of Hysteria's invulnerability, or Paralysis' slowdown, she won't take many shots out of any "Hard/Endgame" enemies before collapsing into a cat loaf. So I will do the same for Atlas, and if I could Chroma too. And no, upgrading most frame from 15 armour to 125 did no difference DE.

    These three frames are like the Pillar men from JoJos, they deserve better treatment (stats and ability wise) for the concepts they have.

    So, Atlas stats would go as following:
    -300 health/750 health for base, 525/1250 health for Prime
    -Shields. On one hand I want to remove them and make Atlas a total bastion, but on the other I comprehend people who does Endurance runs like Knight Frame or CourageousBoss, would like to still have shield gating, so for the sake of making both parties happy, it will be like this:
    75/150 for regular Atlas, 0 for Prime. Why this? Because in the end, Primes are a stat upgrade to the "production" versions, but the abilities are still the same, so it is unaffected.
    -800 for base, 1000 for Prime.
    -Same energy, Atlast has a very fine energy pool.
    -No changes to sprint either.
    -Rubble will play a bigger role now.

Abilities & Augments:

  • Landslide is fine. It is a simple yet powerful and super fun ability that most Atlas builds revolve around.
    Similar to Excalibur's Slash Dash, this ability is like a glimpse of power of Atlas Exalted weapon, but unlike Excal, Atlas cannot unleash the full potential of his.
    Lets leave Landslide as it is for now. However, lets take a look at how I've tweaked his augment so that it can be interesting and useful.
                                                                                                               Seismic_Pulse_Augment.png
    Introducing Seismic Pulse, a perfect augment for one of Atlas' problems, enemy grouping.
    Normally people would put Ensnare to help Atlas with that, so I though why not adding such a needed QoL change, as an augment? The mod is pretty straightforward, you punch, and on 300% of the punch's range, enemies get dragged to you. Yes, this does work with the combo area increase, so the more you punch, the more enemies you'll cluster together to petrify and repeat the process.

    At first I had thought of adding a second augment to Landslide, but I felt it would be too much.
    While most of the augment ideas I have had on the process are really nice, Atlas already has the most augments in the entire game if am not mistaken (6), so adding more would be kind of chaotic for build porpouses, as if every one were to be useful or feel mandatory to equip, you'll end up with a build made out of augments alone.
    It would also rise controversy for some might say I am too biased due to Atlas being my main and favourite.
     
      Reveal hidden contents

    There was this idea of adding a super rare reward to "Endgame content" that allowed us to insert augments as part of the frames, without taking a physical place on the build.
    This idea is both good and bad in my eyes, as some abilities behave too differently without their augments, Chromatic blade for example, and it would limitate "build variety" which seems to be an argument DE loves to bring up, in spite of making some things only be one-way viable, or really-few-ways-viable, but at the same time it would solve the massive issue augment mods are.

    If it were by me, I would make it to be a mixture of that idea, with the current Tenno focus schools' UI, which is really clean and calming to the eyes.
    Will address this on another post, this is not the place or moment.



    Now then, back to Seismic Pulse, why would you equip it instead of subsuming Ensnare on Atlas?
    Punches will send foes flying even if they get dragged to you, so it would be redundant or ultimately useless to equip this augment!
    It would take a space on the build (Unless the aforementioned ability tree, separated from the modding UI were to be implemented) whereas Khora's ability would simply replace one of his useless abilities without taking space on the build physically!

    Here's why; I couldn't get to fit all the text I wanted on the augment all that well because my editing/photoshopping skills are pretty untrained, but the third punch (The one that sends people flying and has the most range) will also have a chance to petrify enemies within its AoE, up to 30%.
    At first I had thought of making it 50% but that would render Petrify to be completely unused, and that is not the plan, I want to make all of his abilities usable, and used.

    I would also give an increase to the base combo duration of Landslide by default, but no more changes for the ability as it is fine.


     
  • Changed Petrify to be his second ability!
    The reasoning is pretty simple;
    Petrify is vital to Atlas' kit, as it is the only reliable way of getting rubble but it is too expensive to cast, if it is meant to be used as much as it feels like it does.
    By changing it to the second slot, now it consumes 50 energy by default instead of 75, and it has no rubble cost, as it is meant to be your rubble source.

    What do I mean by rubble cost? Easy, now Atlas' 3rd and 4th ability do not consume as much energy, instead, they will make use of the rubble meter too, as a secondary source.
    I will deepen on this as the post goes by, I am sure you, the reader, will find it fascinating.

    Other than that, Petrify is another of those abilities that is perfect as it is, but you know what is not? Its augment.
    Lets take a look at how have I changed Ore Gaze. 
                                                                                                               Ore_Gaze_Augment_Rework.png

    Ore Gaze turns Atlas into a looter frame, and when the changes to looting frames happened, he was cited as one of the frames that would work alongside other of the same class.

    According to that list, there are 4 chances of looting enemies now;
    -While alive with Ivara
    -On petrify with Atlas
    -On kill with Khora, Wukong or Hydroid but only once as "enemies can't die multiple times"
    -And on corpse with Nekros

    Meaning you get (with base strength for demonstration porpouses) [54%N+65%K+100%I+25%A] close to 250% of extra loot from a single target, without any resource boosters or kitty catvat buffs.

    In reality, we all know you wont see an Ivara for a looting team because even with the fastest Prowl steal, it still takes longer than just kill kill kill, so lets say a 150% loot chance.

    Now, here is my question; Why does Ore Gaze have such a terrible low percentage of extra loot chance by default?

    True, it is affected by strength mods, but even at 200% strength you get but as much loot chance as Nekros with 1% strength and 0 energy consuption and massive radial range. Besides, you have to cast it each time on a group of enemies for it to work, which is very energy consuming compared to all the other looting abilities.

    Even Khora's Strangledome in spite of requiring an augment to loot, has way more loot chance, lasts for a long time, and it doesn't need to be recasted to affect more enemies!

    That is why, I introduce to you to the new buffed Ore Gaze, which alongside the reduced energy cost of Petrify, turns Atlas into a really helpful looting frame for squads.
    Now, why do I think this augment is balanced in spite of still being affected by strength mods? (Yes, you could get 300% loot chance!)

    There are two factors: Base range+Cone's angle/Efficiency vs strength.

    While it is true that with this augment you'll be a massive help on a looting squad, Atlas still requires to cast his ability directly on the enemies for it to work.
    If you want the most possible loot, you'll need to have strength on the build, but at the same time you need the range so that you can hit the most enemies possible, the duration so that the effect doesn't wear off before you or your team wipes them, and the efficiency so that you can keep casting.

    +On a looting squad scenario with a Dispensary Equilibrium Khora or Equilibrium Atlas+E.Nekros with Arcane Energize, this shouldn't be too much of an issue, so you could run high   strength with moderate range and okay duration without a care in the world for efficiency.
    -On a solo scenario however, you won't have this help to maintain your energy, so you will need to make the build more balanced, or rely on pet synergies such as Panzer Vulpa with the mods that allows him to generate health orbs from downed enemies. Even with that in mind, building for low eff even though Petrify costs less with this rework idea, is not advisable for you need to cast it rather often after you eliminate a group.
     
      Reveal hidden contents

    To note down, I know Petrify is Atlas' subsume ability, so you could turn ANY warframe into a looting frame, or make looting frames get even more loot, but then again, a loot frame never builds for strength, so it would make minimal use of it, and in the case of Khora, you'd need 2 augments at the same time which cuts the builds very shortly. A plausible case could be Ivara, but you'll need augment, subsume, cast it and Prowl and then kill, which is rather tedious and still slower than going onslaught.



    And that is how I would change Ore Gaze to stop being another niche mod, and start to make Atlas' multi-porpouse kit begin to shine on more situations!


     
  • Changed Tectonics to his third rather than removing it directly.
    Tectonics is a curious ability for Atlas. Most of his kit is very offensive and attack-oriented, so what does a tiny pebble wall make among his abilities? Is Atlas perhaps a house decor in his free time? One way or another, this is the most replaced ability on him because it is the most useless too.

    Lets observe how I would change Tectonics to stop being "The wally" and become "The bulkwtrath" as I have prepared a small visual example for it:
    Tectonics_Rework_Visual_example.png

    Now it consumes 50 energy and half rubble, nice right?

    Scales really well the more rubble you have, as the formula would be:
    (([{Tec.Base HP + Absorbed Damage + (Atlas' Base HP × HP Mods%) + 5 × [(Atlas' Base Armour × Mods%) + (50%/33% of current Rubble)]}] × Power Strength) × Petrify's extra 200%.

    Example with a full Umbral Atlas P.(No Arcane Guardian or other mods);
    (6637 + 1873 + AD +(5 × [(1389 + 50%/33% of 1400)])) × 177% × (optional) 200%
    Hypotetical HP (No damage taken+ Petrify): 67.100 with 12k armour (x8.8 armour multiplier)
    Same build on Frost would give:  8850 hp for 7626 armour (x8.8 armour multiplier too)


    With these changes, Tectonics becomes one of the strongest defensive abilities.
    Some may complain, so I also prepared a small document about the subject.
     
      Reveal hidden contents

    Why change the formula? Some may ask.
    "It will be too op" - "It will make other defensive frames a joke" - "That is not the answer" - "Lmao, no."

    And here is my response to that possible criticisim;
    Atlas is a frame with abilities that are meant to do close to everything a frame can do.
    -Damage dealing with Landslide,
    -CC with Petrify,
    -Defend with Tectonics,
    -And some more CC/Self "support" with Rumblers.

    However, he lacks at almost all of these, because while it is true he can deal a good punch of damage, he requires of expensive modding, as the stats of Landslide are mediocre at base, not even Prime upgrades that.

    Someone might say; "You can use Ensnare or Breach Surge to do more damage/help his problem lol, don't make him OP for no reason".

    It is true I am an Atlas main so anyone can say this post is utterly biased, but I aim to make a better Atlas in general, not just for my own liking, because honestly if it were by me I'd get rid of Tectonics and Rumblers and just slap a exalted weapon ability directly on him and be good to go. And I've talked to plenty of people who would like exalted weapon on Atlas, but lets take about that later.

    I have said this previously and I will keep saying it; If a frame needs to make use of Helminth to be actually good, rather than just usable, it is not that good of a frame.

    Atlas and Chroma share this bond, both are great frames, but have two abilities that suck, and more often than not get replaced, though I think Chroma can't get some abilities replaced?
    Point is, sometimes instead of removing what we do not like, we have to work towards helping improve said aspect of ourselves or our loved ones.

     

    Why, buff Tectonics in a way that seems irrational then?

    Lets compare Tectonics to other popular defensive abilities:
    -Frost's Snow Globe covers with a sphere objectives, up to 4 at the same time, and it can stack a lot of EHP, but it has limitations on higher levels due to the enemies' damage output.
    -Gara's Mass Vitrify, similar to Frost's Snow Globe but stronger, can also gain more health per enemy it vitrifies. It also can deal massive damage once you stack up enough glass shards. It synergices well with other Gara abilities.
    -Limbo's Cataclysm. Cataclysm, in stark contrast to Snow Globe or Mass Vitrify, cannot be broken. It is a timeless barrier of the limbo that can also stop enemies who dare enter its range when using Stasis.

    Compared to the previously mentioned abilities, Tectonics right now falls beyond short.
    It doesn't have the periferical defense of Snow Globe, it doesn't have the utility and damage capabilities of Mass Vitrify, and it is by far unuseful compared to Cataclysm.

    The idea behind making Tectonics stronger and bigger, is so that they resemble the rock they are made of, and the Titan that creates these walls.
    How come a rock in Warframe is more fragile than glass or snow?
    I can comprehend it not being as incredible as a time barrier, but it feels shameful to be this weak compared to said elements.

    Also, if you've done your math right, you'll see that Tectonic Fracture is pretty brutal as a frontal nuke, rather than just AoE nuke, so more possibilities open!

    That is why, I made Tectonics a true bulkwrath.
    Resistant as the mountains, and lasting until time erases them forever, as they can only protect 1 direction with a limited angle, similar to Volt's shield, but not being completely invulnerable.
    Still keeps the fun factor that rolling boulders can be!


    But that's not everything for Tectonics, as I have designed a second augment for it that also makes it interesting, and probably get used even more.
                                                                                                         Bulk_Up_Augment.PNG

    I present to you, the new Atlas augment that gives him endless scalability in terms of survival, Bulk Up.
    Lets go over the explanation, as the rest.

    With this augment, Tectonics becomes a similar ability to Rhino's Iron skin, but it doesn't simply cover you from absolutely all incoming damage, status effects or knockdowns, what it does is increase chunk by chunk your resistance by making use of the rubble mechanic.

    Rubble has a bit of a flaw as for right now: Yes, it can heal Atlas, but if you are low HP, out of energy and you've got no Magus Arcane to save you, what do you do?
    Running away seems the best option, but dying can also happen.
    It also happens to decay a bit too fast, and the margen of rubble you need to maintain for Rubble Heap to work is quite narrow.

    The solution? To become the real deal, become The Titan.
    Bulk Up will consume all the rubble you have stored and add it to your modded armour, plus give a 25% of that rubble as health bonus.
    The rubble will still decay at the same rate as it does now, so you gotta keep on killing petrified enemies and recasting it to obtain the best results.

    Here is a visual representation:
    Bulk_up_Augment_visual.png
    Now, rubble coating will be shown as a buff, so it will be to the left of your health bar, just like Iron Skin, while the rubble counter stays in place so that one does not get confused about it.

    Bulk Up allows Atlas to have great scaling, at the cost of removing his newly improved defensive ability.
    Since he won't be dealing as much damage as a Scaling Berserker Kitty, it is only fair he gets tanking capabilities.

    Because Bulk up increases the rubble counter the more times you use it, this also means having a bigger umbral for Rubble Heap's effect the longer you play!

    Now we have more build variety:
    Focus on base health, armour and strength to create almost indestructible walls, use Tectonic Fracture for brutal terrain detonations, become a looting frame, sacrifice default health and armour by using the Bulk Up to get innate health and armour scaling the more you kill, or build your Atlas as you please!


     
  • Finally, Rumblers, a complicated choice.
    I do not like Rumbles as an ulti for Atlas. They deal little damage, AI is wack (as per usual) and they have little to no use for anything. Right, you summon two henchmen to help you, but do they help at all honestly? I am really skeptical about this.
    On one hand I want to remove them, because they are terrible, but on the other side, this ability has 2 augments, so it could be a bit complicated to think how to replace these or reprogram. One way or another, I can't think of a simple buff for Rumblers themselves because the AI is bad, and that is a massive flaw already that affects them.

    Originally, I had two ideas:

    -Work the Rumbled path, and make Atlas become a rock golem himself, but Bulk Up has already achieved all the required defensive needs, so it would feel pointless to add even more layers of defenses, as what Atlas lacks now with this rework, is a scaling damage source outside of Tectonic Fracture.
    There was also the option of making Rumbled augment convert Atlas into something close to a Necramech, with its own abilities, similar to Sevagoth's Shadow, but this was even more complex, so I couldn't decide. It could be like a Necramech but with his normal abilities too, there are many options.

    -Add what I always wanted Atlas to have, his exalted weapon, but since Atlas already has landslide, this could make some people argument that he is just a straight up better Excalibur, and then say Excalibur needs a buff if this rework were to happen. At the same time, Baruuk exists, and his damage capabilities for a paciFIST monk far surpass Atlas' ones.
    And I actually like Baruuk a lot, his exalted weapon has a perfect augment, one of the few that really is worth slotting into a build.
    By all means, do I think Baruuk should be nerfed so Atlas can be on his same offensive level, that would be absolutely terrible.


    So after some thought, I decided to go... both ways!
    Introducing Tremors, an exalted weapon that summons two golems alongside Atlas to help him fight, break and shatter the battlefield.
     
      Reveal hidden contents

    In order to get rid of too many complicated calculations caused by health, armour and strength mods, I removed Golems' (or Rumblers, if you will) health and armour stats, as they will now work by energy. Until you stop using Tremors, the golems will keep fighting, and can't be destroyed! Talk about a useful distraction of hideous resistance.

    Now, the new golems first, then we will talk about the weapon;

    -Golems are inmortal and unstoppable unless Atlas orders them to. They deal damage that scales with enemy level, just like Xaku's Grasp of Lohk weapons, plus take the melee mods and combo counter of Tremors into account in real time, so if you want your golems to kill too, AFKing and letting them do the work won't get you far.
    You will need to be there fighting and building up your combo for the best results.

    -They will keep the same punching and throwing rocks attacks, but will also have new interesting and interactive attacks combined with Tremors' combo guard that I will explain later on.

    -Because it is a channeled ability, Tremors' efficiency is affected by efficiency and duration mods, but duration does not affect any of the Rumblers stats, just range and strength do.

    -Natural Talent does not affect Golem rebuilding speed after using Demolition Spear (Sliding Heavy attack from Tremors).



    Tremors: Atlas covers his forearms and fists with sharp and sturdy geodes that allow him to deal massive damage, while also summoning two eternal warriors to assist him.

    Stats:
      Reveal hidden contents

    Base stats (at 100% strength), mods that work on it, and other clarifications:

    Built-in Shattering Impact

    1400 total damage, same as the third hit from Landslide.
    -700 impact
    -500 slash
    -200 puncture

    26% Status Chance
    40% Critical Chance
    x4 Critical Multiplier

    Attack speed of 1.10

    Range of 1.80m

    Stats wise this is a very strong exalted melee, but unlike exalted Sword, Serene Storm, or Primal Rage, it has way less range and no wave-type/wall piercing ranged attacks.
    It is meant to get up close and personal to your foe, and decimate it.

    Rumblers' attacks do follow these stats too.

    As for modding;
    Blood Rush, Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds do work on this melee. As you will be up close, getting combo won't be an issue to push the damage even further.


    Stance:
      Reveal hidden contents

    BLEAK TITAN

    Eroded Peaks
    (Standing still)
    100% | 100% | 200% | 400%🔨
    Last hit knocks down target, opens to ground finishers.
    3.5s

    Forgotten Avalanche
    (Moving forward) [S=Slam]
    200% S | 200% S | 400% S + lift
    Last hit lifts enemies within a 4m radius.
    2.0s

    Accelerated Shrapnel
    (Moving+Blocking)
    300%📌 | 300%📌 | 200% 🔁| x4 500%🩸

    First two hits generate major concussion on target, third hit causes massive stagger that opens to finishers.
    4.0s

    Shattering Scourge
    (Blocking)
    400% x2🔁| 400% x2🔁| 200% S
    Draws enemies towards Atlas
    3.0s

    Unavoidable Ruination
    (Heavy attack)
    700% S + Ranged + Lift 💥🔨🩸[Multi target]
    Uses both Golems*
    Fracture the terrain in front of you by hammering it with boths hands.
    0.0s

    • *Golems get absorbed on the wind up of heavy attacks, increasing the size and power of Tremors. When hitting the ground, they shatter into pieces hitting everything in front of Atlas on a 10m 120º cone. Golems take 4 seconds to reassemble (each, if broke at the same time, it is 4 for both), so it cannot be spammed. Really powerful at x12.

    Olympian Spear
    (Sliding Heavy attack)
    1200% Ranged 📌🔨
    Uses one Golem*
    Slide to gain momentum before spinning and throwing a massive rock spear towards a target.
    0.0s

    • *A single Golem is absorbed during this attack, so it can be done twice in a row. If time well, continuously on a heavy attack build.


    This stance is heavily inspired by Seismic Palm and Gaia's Tragedy, so I hope that helps picture a bit better how the combos would look.


    Synergies:
    -Landslide can help to close the gap between targets if needed!
    -Landslide's damage is affected by Tremors' combo counter, and it doesn't consume energy while Tremors is active.
    -Petrified enemies take 100% extra damage and status damage from Tremors.
    -Collecting rubble reduces the cooldown of Golems by 0.5 second for each fragment.
    -Unavoidable Ruination and Olympian spear can hit enemies behind regular Tectonics.
    -Unavoidable Ruination can detonate Tectonics made with Tectonic Fracture doubling the effective range and travel speed of the shards

    Augments:
    Reworked both to fit better the current rework thematic as shown
                                                                                 Rumbled_Augment_Rework.png                       Titanic_Rumbler_Augment_Rework.png

    (Forgot to add the "Tremors Augment" to Titanic Rumbler :c)

 

 

THE GOLEM VERDICT

Atlas is an extremely fun Warframe that in its current state is pretty unpopular, similar to Wukong prior to his rework. He is not a bad frame at what he does, but he surely could do better.

With all the changes I've proposed above, his kit remains the same, but now is at pair with other awesome frames while still being unique and different.
Abilities will interact more between themselves, and the results could be potentially amazing.

Not changing his kit has allowed me to think on how to improve his abilities instead of getting rid of them, which is what we do more often than now when an ability is bad.
In case that the rework were to be accepted, it would all be easier to recreate instead of starting from scrap.

The amount of different builds that are now possible with this rework makes me happy, for I am sure it will make Atlas actually be brought to missions for different porpouses thant just punc fools, and I am also sure it would put a smile on the face of any DE staff that encourages "build variety".

However, not everything is perfect now. All his augments are really good after this "revision", so equipping multiple could be in the minds of many. In order to prevent some chaotic builds from existing, I would make only one augment equipable per ability. That way Augments like Bulk Up and Tectonic Fracture wouldn't be equipable at the same time and prevent any kind of bug from happening. Better safe than sorry.

Writing and drawing all this has took me a total of 2 days, but it has been really fun doing it.

If you have made it to this point, I would like to hear your opinion down in the comments below, and let me know what you would have done differently, or if you just happen to like it as it is.
I am also open to getting roasted for my drawings.

One way or another, thanks for reading.

got dam this the worlds longest comment wtf but i think atlas good as he is his 3 can go his 4 needs a few changes such as instead summonin 2 tall golems summon 4 or 6 tall golems and rework his rumbler augment to not disable his dash jump and runnin his 3 pretty lame tbh rather they replaced with giant rock fist or somethin maybe a bunch of rock ball monsters around the map knockin down enemies and the augment makes them explode on end of ability duration based on the players power strength alone 

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hace 12 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

But excal has 3 of them.

I think his only utterly useless ability is Radial Javelin to be honest. Slash Dash like I said can be used as a mobility tool, and to close gaps between enemies just like Landslide.
Of course that is always subjective.

hace 12 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

I personally think it's his main weakness actually

It is every tonk frame's weakness lul. They may have a lot of health or armor or shields in the case of Hyldrin, but at some point it becomes not-usable or matters anymore, and that point isn't far in most missions, so DR mods don't help tremendously either. I can blame that on the not-so-recent changes to damage reduction on frames  but not on enemies, or simply in the way the defenses in Warframe scale.

hace 12 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

Although. thinking about it now, it makes sense to make it 2 instead of 3.

Yep, it does. And like I said regaring Ore gaze, Atlas needs to use it every time to get the loot bonus, and it has limited range and a linear AoE, whereas Nekros has flat % undepending of strenght, it is cast once and done, and it is radial. That is why I explained in a detailed way why I thought it'd be fair, even if strong.

hace 12 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

it's the easiest way (in terms of actually coding and implementing)

Fair enough, I just tried to make something likeable and that could work well, satisfying those who enjoy his base kit like me. Though replacing Tectonics like you say would also require quite the coding work, whereas tweaking an existing ability that allows to make use of his already existing exalted weapon, would take less effort maybe?

hace 12 horas, GREF_TM dijo:

Honestly, i'm just not a big fan of something as important being locked behind an augment. I think it should be a part of his base kit. Hence the passive. Same reason i slapped DR on base tectonics instead of making a furious javelin -like augment with the same effect.

Yeah, might have to think about that one better, that way we would have less problems with the slotting of mods for an Atlas build.

hace 4 horas, (XBOX)ZayxThaxGod dijo:

got dam this the worlds longest comment wtf but i think atlas good as he is his 3 can go his 4 needs a few changes such as instead summonin 2 tall golems summon 4 or 6 tall golems and rework his rumbler augment to not disable his dash jump and runnin his 3 pretty lame tbh rather they replaced with giant rock fist or somethin maybe a bunch of rock ball monsters around the map knockin down enemies and the augment makes them explode on end of ability duration based on the players power strength alone 

But, but... have you actually read it? :P

Edited by (PSN)Pablogamer585
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  • 2 weeks later...
hace 14 horas, JimboOhara dijo:

I like this kind of posts for the extreme effort and work put into these, it displays how players who really love the game and a specific Warframe and want it to be good even when DE seems to have forgotten they made any Warframes before 2019.

Aww, thank you for your kind words Kimbo :)

That made my day even better, though it's not like anything special has actually happened.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Well, I got around to having a look :) No general impression up

ahead as I'll be "reacting" to this as I read it. I'll try to comment only where I have things to actually add.

On 2021-10-11 at 2:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I personally would remove shields on both, just like Nidus and Inaros, and crank up base health and armour values so that they have a more accurate feeling to their descriptions.

 

This is a good idea. Commit and go for it. I'm of the opinion that a lot more Warframes should be without shields. Tough, heavily-armoured high-sustain Warframes shouldn't need additional protection. Nidus and Inaros fit that bill. I agree that Atlas and Valkyr do as well. I'd go further and apply the same to at least Grendel, as well. When was this posted? ... Yeah, after Grendel, so him too. These "25 shield so they can shield gate but they don't actually have shields" Warframes are a dirty hack, in my opinion. Give them decent stats and they'll hold out in regular content and even a lot of excessively high-level content. Sure, they might die every so often but that SHOULD be a reasonable danger for even a tough Warframe. I love my Inaros Prime to bits, but he removes an entire chunk of gameplay from the overall experience.

Get rid of Atlas' shields, boost his health, armour and/or other stats as necessary. He'll be a better Warframe for it, I think.

 

On 2021-10-11 at 2:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Landslide is fine. It is a simple yet powerful and super fun ability that most Atlas builds revolve around.

I disagree. While Landslide is certainly a fun way to troll intended game design, it's also a really badly-designed ability. This, Khora's whip and a few other such "stat stick" abilities breed really counter-intuitive, disruptive habits. This is for two reasons: Firstly, stat sticks encourage really awkward builds. Your actual melee weapon doesn't matter, you're picking it solely for the mods you can stick in it, and that to me is ass-backwards. Secondly and arguably even worse - Warframe's ability keybinds and general setup don't lend themselves to action combat. That's fine for buffs, nukes and other things you use rarely, but Atlas' Landslide isn't used like that. It's used like a weapon - which the keybinds just aren't set for.

In my opinion, the solution here is simple - turn Landslide into an Exalted Weapon. That way, Atlas can bring whatever melee weapon he actually wants to use because Landslide can be modded separately. You also avoid those weird, WEIRD edge cases such as the Xoris infinite combo, plus you can actually balance the thing on its own. An exalted weapon as a first ability isn't unprecedented - that's what Hildryn has and I personally think it works quite well for her.

Landslide as an Exalted weapon solves a lot of issues with the ability while keeping Atlas' supposed identity as the "punching guy." I personally feel he has an identity well beyond that, but the entire rest of his kit is awful so I can see why people don't know him for anything else.

 

On 2021-10-11 at 2:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Tectonics is a curious ability for Atlas. Most of his kit is very offensive and attack-oriented, so what does a tiny pebble wall make among his abilities? Is Atlas perhaps a house decor in his free time? One way or another, this is the most replaced ability on him because it is the most useless too.

Quoting the text here since I don't want to quote the entire image, but I don't think you've gone far enough. Even if you make the wall longer, you're still left with the central issue of it only covering one side. Consider for a moment what "barriers" are useful for in this game, specifically in PvE. They're not great at shielding allies because everyone moves too fast. They're not great for protecting Atlas because enemies attack from all directions more often than not. They're almost entirely useful for protecting objectives. This is what the likes of Snowglobe, Mass Vitrify, Cataclysm - they're all predominantly used to shield an object which cannot be moved or hidden. Atlas is the only one who can't do that, and this change doesn't address this, I don't think. As with a lot of your other changes, I feel you need to go further. Take some risks :)

Turn Tectonics into a ring around Atlas, say 10-ish meters across. Use the Gara mechanic of a "segmented ring" where each segment has its own separate health bar. Could base it on Atlas' maximum health and armour. Since you're using Rubble as a resource (more on that in a bit), you could turn Tectonics into a charge-up ability. The longer you charge it, the more rubble it costs (up to potentially ALL of it) but the more health it gains. None of the other "barriers" in the game work like this, so it gives you a slight unique flair.

Oh, and a brief follow-up - if you're going to give Atlas his own Iron Halo / Merulina, please don't make it an augment. The last thing we need is what looks like an essential aspect of the character locked behind an Augment. This is ostensibly a fifth ability by this point. I'd recommend either making that its own ability or just merging it with the base ability somehow. Making it an Augment just means Atlas has 7 mod slots.

 

On 2021-10-11 at 2:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

So after some thought, I decided to go... both ways!
Introducing Tremors, an exalted weapon that summons two golems alongside Atlas to help him fight, break and shatter the battlefield.

I may be misreading something here, but Tremors sounds like "just Landslide again, except now with Rumblers." I don't see the point. You could easily just turn Landslide itself into this and save yourself the duplicate ability for something else. You could put the Tectonics augment here, for instance. Say Atlas summons Rumblers and covers himself in stone (though I'd rather have a less obtrusive visual). Any damage Atlas' stone armour takes is transferred to the Rumblers, dealing True damage to their health but buffing the damage they do. That retains the Rumblers' use as a decoy pet while adding a defensive ability, too. Buffing the Rumblers' health as they share damage should also counteract people's desire to just hide them so they serve as an added health battery. You COULD, or you could take a load of damage and help them kill stuff better.

You could also give the Rumblers themselves a Petrification ability of some sort. Maybe a random proc per hit. Then you can boos proc chance or petrification duration the more damage you share with them. You could also base Rumbler health/armour stats on Atlas' Health/Armour stats. After all, higher health means they can share more damage and boos their offence even higher. Or alternately, it means they can petrify even more reliably.

My primary point here is this - whenever possibly, I try to merge similar or analogous abilities together. When discussing Warframe design, I like for each ability to have its own unique, distinct use that isn't redundant with the others. The last thing you want is for players to always use 2-3 abilities in a row in the same situation. What you've achieved then is bloating a single ability to cost 2-3 ability slots. It makes the Warframe overall less compelling.

 

On 2021-10-11 at 2:15 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

-Rubble will play a bigger role now.

I can't actually find a unified model for what you want to do with Rubble, so quoting this as an anchor. From what I understand, you want to retain the current Rubble mechanic, but also change a few abilities to cost rubble to cast instead, instead of (or in addition to) energy. That's actually a neat idea, but you're going to have to tweak Rubble itself more than a little bit if you want this mechanic to work. As of right now, Rubble is quite awful. Atlas in general is a victim of "excessive synergy." On paper, all of his abilities synergise together but in practice this just means that most of his abilities work badly outside of very specific circumstances. Rubble is the one that suffers the harshest "penalty by comparison."

Right now, enemies drop 50 Rubble when they die while Petrified, 75 if killed with abilities (i.e. Landslide). This means that if you kill with your guns or melee, you lose out on 1/3 of your Rubble. Worse, team-mates who score kills also deny you 1/3 of your Rubble because they don't have Landslide (usually). Worse still, team-mates will often kill enemies before you can even Petrify them, creating a really unfortunate "kill stealing" situation. I propose simplifying all that. Any enemy Atlas kills grants him 50 Rubble directly (no pick-up). Any enemy killed by a team-mate in Affinity range grants Atlas 50 Rubble. That's it, that's all there has to be to it.

Additionally, every bit of Rubble would need to both heal Atlas AND grant Rubble at the same time. Since we're taking away his shield (which even you propose doing to Atlas Prime), that means Atlas will always be below full health. In fact, I'd argue that the heal from Rubble needs to increase dramatically - to 100, 150 or even more. You're booting his health dramatically, as well, so Rubble will need to do more heavy lifting.

The obvious point of concern here is "but wouldn't that be too much?" No, and for pretty much the reason you propose. Atlas' abilities now cost Rubble. He's going to go through his Rubble at a very rapid pace. You seem to have gone with a Nidus approach of some abilities costing energy and others costing "resource." I'd consider going to "all rubble, no energy" but you don't need to go that far. You can keep Landslide costing energy, especially if you turn it into an Exalted Weapon. I'd recommend letting Atlas charge all the other abilities, though. Charge Tectonics for more health, charge Petrify for longer range and/or wider cone and/or longer petrification duration, charge the Rumblers to buff their stats (health and armour and damage and petrification chance/duration if you want to give them that). Let Atlas charge all of these abilities to the maximum amount of Rubble that he actually has. Let Atlas drain himself of Rubble fully on every ability cast if he wants to supercharge them, then let him build up from scratch.

Once you establish such a severe Rubble drain, I think it's safe to remove his Rubble Decay altogether. Since Atlas will be burning his own Rubble and thus losing his armour, he doesn't need it decaying on top of that. You could (and should) retain rapid Rubble decay when inside a Nullifier bubble as it is right now, but no need to decay outside of that.

 

Basically, I like the spirit of your Atlas proposals. Remove his shield, boost his durability, rework Rubble into a resource rather than just armour. However, I just feel that you can easily go a lot farther in terms of ambition. I'd encourage you to be more aggressive with what you change. Yes, sometimes people will react negatively to significant change. However, decent Warframe design sometimes requires a heavy hand. Wukong is a perfect example, I think, of a Warframe that got drastically redesigned and made far better for it. Atlas is actually closer to really good than most people give him credit for (he was my actual first Warframe, before even Excalibur because I spent money early on). The problem is that all of his mechanics require too much work of the player and do too little in return. Be bold and give him the over-the-top abilities he deserves. I think there's room for it.

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hace 12 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

Well, I got around to having a look :) No general impression up ahead as I'll be "reacting" to this as I read it. I'll try to comment only where I have things to actually add.

Wait, is that... takes of glasses to clean them

Holy, it is INDEED a response of similar length to my post, incredible!

hace 12 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I disagree. While Landslide is certainly a fun way to troll intended game design, it's also a really badly-designed ability.

hace 12 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I may be misreading something here, but Tremors sounds like "just Landslide again, except now with Rumblers."

There is a bit of context that perhaps has gone a bit unnoticed for this:

  • I comprehend why you say Landslide sucks; no one would agree that an ability that requires your entire focus on it to be somewhat effective, is good, and I do not fancy the concept of stat-sticks either as it requires of very specifical rivens/mods (Primed Heavy Trauma like what th-) to work best and we already know how DE is when it comes to rivens & melees.
    But I find Landslide fun! It is like a better Slash Dash in terms of damage and damaging capabilities, as much as it is horrible.

    The reason why I would like to keep it is because I do like to mix ability usage and weapon-play. It is also a good way of closing gaps with the Atlas builds I personally run, so I can get on their faces faster, and to smash them harder. On another note, the closing distances is always welcome if you have an exalted melee weapon, more on that when I start to talk about Tremors.
    And while yes, Hyldrin does indeed happen to have an exhalted weapon as her first ability, I find Balefire Charger a bit... weak. Yes, it has one of the greatest base damages from weapons in the entire game, but the stats of it are surprisingly even worse than Atlas' Landslide, which is saying quite something already.
    They are two coins of the same face, more than two faces of the same coin.

 

  • As for Tremors: Golems become immortal with the rework, and you get an exalted weapon with way more than just "pack-a-punching" to it, I even made the full combo list, which if only I knew more about 3D modelling I'd go as far as to make a tiny video demonstration for each, but I am still on learning process.
    With the augment for the Golems, the petrification is present with a 100% chance, but I don't think the Golems should petrify by default, as if not there would be no point on using Petrify when Tremors is active. While yes it would be a "chance", them being an AI that will hit multiple times, as more often than not [99.9999% of times basically] few enemies would die from a single hit of these, it is secured they will petrify things even if not at first try.
    Tho, as I am making the Rumblers' damage follow your Tremors' melee combo counter and stats, they would work as an extension of your exalted weapon, so very probably they would actually beat the crap out of a lot of enemies, another thing I forgot of aahhh!

    At first I had though of making part of the damage be redirected to the Golems, now that they are completely unkillable, unless some Nullifooker happens to touch them, but that idea fell into oblivion, as per usual (I forget lotta things, dang it!).
    Now, since you've mentioned my own point of making Atlas shield-less, at least for his Prime, it would make sense to have a certain degree of damage reduction thrown to the formula. Perhaps we can make it work like Baruuk's Desert Wind which provides a very nice damage reduction when the ability is active.
    That, combined with the rest of the proposed kit enhancements, would give Atlas one of the best scaling survivabilities* from all Warframes.
    Baruuk, if am not mistaken, currently has the best damage reduction from all frames, no?
    *(how does one even say this?)

 

Coming back to the point of Landslide and Tremors being both in the same kit, I know we can close distances really easily, but from my experience, an ability that directly pulls you close to an enemy (Dread Mirror as another example) is way faster than running/bullet-jumping/sliding or rolling, moreover for a PlayStation fellow like me, who melees with and can hold R1+ press X/ to execute Landslide/Petrify instantly. That leaves me at the perfect range to keep meleeing someone and then skip onto the next one in a very, very comfortable flow.(*)
If so, what we could do to improve this even further is making Landslide have 100% more range while Tremors is active, leaving for a great AoE damage when the combo of Termors is fully built, and even better gap-closing, and in combination with Seismic Pulse (as it scales with ability range too)? Amazing.

hace 13 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

Even if you make the wall longer, you're still left with the central issue of it only covering one side. Consider for a moment what "barriers" are useful for in this game, specifically in PvE. They're not great at shielding allies because everyone moves too fast. They're not great for protecting Atlas because enemies attack from all directions more often than not. They're almost entirely useful for protecting objectives. This is what the likes of Snowglobe, Mass Vitrify, Cataclysm - they're all predominantly used to shield an object which cannot be moved or hidden. Atlas is the only one who can't do that, and this change doesn't address this, I don't think.

I beg to disagree (to a certain extent). Lets take a look at Volt's electric shield. It gives a small cover to you and you can move it around, but it absorbs 100% of the damage like a champ and cannot be destroyed + also boosts your damage! However, it has a duration. Tectonics is pretty kinda similar, in some way, but none of it for the better.

That is why, even though a lot of people dislikes Tectonics and think it is useless, I though of improving them instead of simply removing said ability.
Ideally, this is a temporary protection you can still use as a big rock boulder that will detonate, but now it would deal 100% of the remaining health as an explosion if you happen to cast it for the third time (1st deploy, 2nd send rolling, 3rd detonate).

In defensive terms, I think that perhaps a good fix for what you mention (angle of Tectonics being inneffective), would be making range mods affect the angle they cover instead of  just size, as honestly the size a Bulkwrath would have with my proposed rework would be about the same as your average Grineer Gallion big door (Blast door type, basically).

I defend how I have changed Tectonic Fracture, I would make the generated Bulkwrath's angle not be affected when this augment is equipped, no more to say about this.
If we refine the main ability, I think there should be no issue with the augment.

hace 14 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I can't actually find a unified model for what you want to do with Rubble, so quoting this as an anchor. From what I understand, you want to retain the current Rubble mechanic, but also change a few abilities to cost rubble to cast instead, instead of (or in addition to) energy.

Yes almost, I would like one ability to make use of Rubble, and you are completely right about saying it should both heal and give armour if we are going to remove the shields, should have thought of that but didn't :P

I also share the feeling that the rubble bonus of killing petrified enemies with abilities should be way higher, perhaps a 200% more as you've suggested, seeing the lethality of abilities ahem Landslide...

Now that we are at it, let me talk about Rubble being more relevant for abilities too;

  • One of the reasons to keep Landslide it also to make it the most efficient way of getting rubble for Tectonics and Tremors. By changing Petrify to the second ability from the third, I reduced the cost of it as it is one of the most important abilities to Atlas' kit but drains way too much by default. You basically can keep petrifying people and punching them like we have always done, but more easily.
     
  • I do realise I didn't explain Tremors from a general point of view but went directly for the stances and stats.
    To clarify, Tremors doesn't take any of the stored rubble for it to be used, as rubble is meant to focus on effective health for Atlas and his Bulkwraths.
    Only Tectonics makes use of Rubble for its cost. With 100% Rubble (1500) it would take half to be used.

 

Personally I do not want to change a Warframe's kit completely or a too drastically when making a rework proposal for it, as too stark changes could be seen negatively and some readers/users wouldn't agree on them, leading to a possible division of opinions as to what should be done for certain X and what so not for certain Y (Which honestly ends up happening anyways as seen on my Augment revision thread lol).

I know you have encouraged me to give his kit more drastical swaps if I felt like it and not mind that much those who disagree with the changes (🧡), but believe me, all the changes I have created had been thought thoroughly to work the best one along each other and I love the way it feels to read it all over again and think of how would it work in game, moreover now that I can adjust some bits of it thanks to the feedback.

Lastly, I would like to thank you for taking your time to read all of this so meticulously and giving really good constructive feedback on it to help me build THE ROCK  Atlas back better. I hope to see you on my upcoming posts as there's still a lot to talk about!

*I know in PC it is not the same, this is a bit problematic, as on controller I feel super comfortable but I know for a fact that if I played on PC I would heavily dislike having to smash my 1 and then change finger to 3, as it would feel really uncomfortable to keep moving around my fingers which would have to go back to the AWSD after the process. Like you said, "sometimes people will react negatively", I guess this will have to be one of those negative aspects to the whole thing, sorry 😅

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21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Wait, is that... takes of glasses to clean them

Holy, it is INDEED a response of similar length to my post, incredible!

I'm long-winded. I can't help it :)

I'll be doing snippet-quotes again just as markers for what I'm referring to, but I may address things outside the quote itself. Just snipping for brevity. Yes, brevity...

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

The reason why I would like to keep it is because I do like to mix ability usage and weapon-play. It is also a good way of closing gaps with the Atlas builds I personally run, so I can get on their faces faster, and to smash them harder. On another note, the closing distances is always welcome if you have an exalted melee weapon, more on that when I start to talk about Tremors.

I'm a bit confused here. You can do both of these things with an Exalted Weapon, I thought. As of Melee 2.9, DE introduced the ability to hot-swap to guns while using an Exalted Melee weapon. You do lose the passive bonuses of the Exalted Weapon when it's not out, but you don't have to keep disabling the ability. An Exalted Melee will swing with the Melee key, but using the Fire key will whip out whatever firearm you have currently equipped, and even allow you to swap between primary and secondary. I don't think it'll work with an Archgun equipped, though. As to gap-closing and auto-aim - I don't see why that can't be an aspect of an Exalted Weapon, either. I don't think we quite have the same precedent for melee weapons doing this already, but I don't expect it's mechanically difficult to pull off. After all, Landslide already works like a quasi-melee-weapon as it is.

The reason I brought up the Balefire Projectors was mostly to set the precedent of having an Exalted Weapon on the 1 ability. If the Balefires are seen as weak, then I'd argue that's an issue specific to them. Landslide as an Exalted Weapon doesn't need to be balanced weak. It could retain most if not all of its current stats. The only thing that needs to change is the method for triggering it.

The reason I'm proposing an Exalted Weapon is because I believe it solves a large number of issues. It drastically improves the ability's control scheme (especially on Keyboard and mouse), it removes the need for a stat stick melee weapon, it allows for Landslide-specific modding and - best of all - it allows for a few types of "combos." Melee weapons have the capacity to hold four combos right now - normal, forward, ADS normal, ADS forward. You don't have to use ALL of them, but you could potentially allow Landslide to punch in place, maybe ground-slam and also do gap-closing/target-tracking depending on player input. As of right now, Landslide often comes down to "hammer key, profit." Turning it into a proper melee weapon would at least give it a bit of complexity.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

As for Tremors: Golems become immortal with the rework, and you get an exalted weapon with way more than just "pack-a-punching" to it, I even made the full combo list, which if only I knew more about 3D modelling I'd go as far as to make a tiny video demonstration for each, but I am still on learning process.

All of this you could easily do to Landslide itself :) That's kind of my overall point here. Adding an "also you punch things" modifier to the Rumblers ability seems redundant with Landslide because that's what that ability is all about. Even if you add more to it than just "you punch things," I'd say you're still splitting a single ability between two separate ability slots. You could easily move all of the Atlas Punching mechanics into one ability, all of the Rumblers mechanics into the other and have synergy between the two. You don't need to have the punching mechanics split half-and-half. Let me try and explain another way...

When I look at a Warframe, what I'm looking for is a soundbite description of what each ability does. Ideally, I want each ability to do something different, such that each would be useful in a different situation. I tried showing examples with other Warframes, but very few actually do that :) Rhino might be a good example. Ability 1 is dash/gore, ability 2 is armour, ability 3 is self-buff, ability 4 is control. Sure, there is some synergy, but these abilities all do distinctly different things. I actually started out wanting to use Inaros, but quickly realised that his ability set is a mess. Most of his abilities have a heavy control component, most of his abilities have self-heal component, a bunch of his abilities have a completely pointless pet-spawning component - it's super-confusing. Every new player I've introduced to Inaros, I've had to sit down and lecture on how Scarab Armour works :)

All of this is to say that, for Atlas, I'd really like to keep all the "punching" contained in one ability - Landslide. Rumblers can then focus entirely or almost entirely on the pets. You can still add synergy between the pets and punching/taking damage. It doesn't have to all be part of the same ability. I remember at one point Atlas was able to Petrify his own Rumblers to boost their stat. As long as you're careful to foster intended behaviour, you can tie all the abilities together. Let's say punching boosts Rumbler EHP (health, damage resistance, whatever) while taking damage boosts their own DPS (attack speed, attack damage, etc) or other aspects. You can put the "punching" and "taking damage" on other abilities if you so desire and they'd still work just fine.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

With the augment for the Golems, the petrification is present with a 100% chance, but I don't think the Golems should petrify by default, as if not there would be no point on using Petrify when Tremors is active. While yes it would be a "chance", them being an AI that will hit multiple times, as more often than not [99.9999% of times basically] few enemies would die from a single hit of these, it is secured they will petrify things even if not at first try.

This is something of a minor point, but I want to make a correction here. Just hitting multiple times doesn't turn a proc into a 100% chance. The probability of "at least one proc" depends on proc chance and attack speed. It's actually not that difficult to model, in fact. Let's say a Rumbler has a 5% chance to Petrify. That's a 95% (1 - 0.05) to not petrify. If the Rumbler hits 10 times, he has a (1 - 0.05)^10  ~ 60% chance to not petrify at all, and 1 - 0.6 = 40% chance to proc Petrify at least once. More broadly, the chance is (1 - proc_chance)^number_of_attacks. Now factor in petrification duration and attack rate, and you can start calculating petrification "uptime" - what percentage of the time an enemy targeted by a Rumbler would spend petrified. The math gets a bit more complicated there so I don't want to get into it, but it's still analytically solvable, meaning you can get discrete solutions. It's entirely possible to allow Rumblers to proc Petrification without them permanently petrifying all enemies they fight just because they hit repeatedly. If you really want to, I could spend the time and write-up a more formal proof there.

More importantly, though - Petrify is AoE. Even without upgrades, it's already a MASSIVE cone which can easily hit multiple enemies with very basic positioning. Rumblers petrifying a single enemy here and there (they don't have AoE attacks) doesn't seem like a significant source of Petrification to me. This is even more so considering I redesigning the Rubble system entirely, which I don't know if you really addressed. If Rubble doesn't require petrified enemies, then an extra small source of Petrification doesn't seem that significant. It's "nice to have," but hardly game-breaking.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Yes almost, I would like one ability to make use of Rubble, and you are completely right about saying it should both heal and give armour if we are going to remove the shields, should have thought of that but didn't :P I also share the feeling that the rubble bonus of killing petrified enemies with abilities should be way higher, perhaps a 200% more as you've suggested, seeing the lethality of abilities ahem Landslide...

I think an important part of what I was suggesting here got "lost in translation," so to speak :) One of my major proposals was to remove the requirements for Rubble altogether. Broadly speaking, I feel that all enemies defeated in any way by anyone within Affinity range of Atlas should drop Rubble, and more specifically drop the same amount of Rubble. No bonus for using abilities to kill them, no requirement for enemies to be petrified first, no requirement to pick anything up. Kills just directly boost Atlas' Rubble stat. That could be renamed if this violates the theme too hard. The reason I propose this is because Atlas' Rubble is really annoying to generate right now, due to how many hoops the player needs to jump through and how expensive this is to pull off. Oh, and because every time I play with other people, they keep kill-stealing me and denying me Rubble. By directly granting Atlas Rubble for kills he's there to help with, the team can no longer interfere and undermine his ability use.

I personally feel that Warframe is a bit too fast-paced for these kinds of fragile, multi-stage mechanics. Find some way to gather enemies together so they can all be petrified at once. Petrify them before team-mates kill them. Now hurry before team-mates kill the Petrified enemies. This can work on a well-coordinated team where everyone knows what they're doing. Like Limbo, however, that becomes problematic on a random public matchmaking team where nobody pays attention to anything, including chat. Personally, I feel it's a good idea to reduce the potential for kill-stealing and other player-to-player interference as much as possible. You're never going to eliminate it, but it helps to at least not bake competitive objectives directly into a Warframe's kit.

To be honest, I'm actually curious to get your opinion on my proposal for how Rubble could work :) The mechanics of building it up like I said before, tying it to both Tectonics and the Rumblers, the ability to charge up abilities with Rubble up to potentially using up ALL of it at once, etc. You could easily keep Landslide and Petrify using Energy, but I'm personally of the opinion that both Tectonics and Rumblers can use Rubble, instead. For one thing, they're made OF rubble. For another thing, they're both constructs which remain on the map long after they're cast, rather than something you spam. It makes sense to let Atlas invest more into them, to make them last even longer. They're stone, after all. They shouldn't be as transient. Just curious what you think on the matter, is all.

 

22 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I beg to disagree (to a certain extent). Lets take a look at Volt's electric shield. It gives a small cover to you and you can move it around, but it absorbs 100% of the damage like a champ and cannot be destroyed + also boosts your damage! However, it has a duration. Tectonics is pretty kinda similar, in some way, but none of it for the better.

OK, that's a fair point - and I'll get to that. I'm not sure Volt's shields are a great example, though. They're kind of... really bad as a defensive ability. You need to spawn a crap-ton of them and even then you're probably going to leave gaps. From what I've seen, the best defensive use people have found for them is to turtle in a corner. Volt's shields are mostly useful for boosting damage these days, at least from how I've seen people use them.

I don't necessarily think that an arc of stone is useless, especially if you make it large enough. I just don't quite follow why you feel that a full circle of stone couldn't serve the same purpose. That's not really "removing" the ability. It's still a wall of stone that enemies can't walk through or shoot through and must break instead. You can still use it to corner-camp exactly like Volt could. You could, however, also use it for mobile cover out in the open - such as on Free Roam maps or just larger indoor rooms. It's tantamount to an on-demand bunker, which seems thematic for an "earthbender" Warframe. Just... why is an arc superior to a circle in this case?

Oh, and as a passing thought. You had an "Iron Skin" Augment for Tectonics. I wanted to tie that Stone Skin with the Rumblers, such that damage you block doesn't just go away, but instead erodes the Rumblers. You could easily do this and just call it a "synergy." My problem with it is that this would create something of a clunky synergy. It would mean I'd need to summon a wall every time I wanted armour, even if I don't want to summon a wall at the moment. It would, I think, lead to the unintended behaviour of Atlas having to run off and throw away the wall somewhere out of sight, just so he can get the damage redirection buff. By contrast, tying the Iron Skin (Stone Skin?) to the Rumblers ability means that the same ability creates the damage resistance as creates the things which resisted damage goes to. Two steps are reduced to one and no wasted wall is generated.

Additionally, because taking damage boosts the Rumblers' offensive output, the same issue wouldn't recur. Atlas wouldn't be encouraged to go dump the Rumblers somewhere off to the side to serve as damage resistance batteries. Not only will the Rumblers follow him (so they're less easily hidden), but the player is encouraged to HAVE them in the fight because they do more than just absorb damage. Again - I'm trying to plan for intended player behaviour and foster that. Atlas is a Brawler. He needs to be encouraged to get in people's faces and take damage, rather than hiding "batteries" from the enemies.

I suppose it's possible to tie the Stone Skin directly to the Stone Wall, sharing damage with it, but... Well, that's counter-intuitive. The wall is already there to absorb damage. Feeding more damage to it undermines its primary purpose and may encourage Atlas himself to hide, to give more durability to the wall. It could also have the aforementioned effect of Atlas being encouraged to hide the wall where it won't take damage so he'll keep the damage redirection longer. I see no way to foster anything other than poor player habits by tying Stone Skin to the wall, is my chief criticism here.

And that's all assuming that Stone Skin isn't an Augment, mind you :) Which I strongly believe it shouldn't be.

 

22 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I know you have encouraged me to give his kit more drastical swaps if I felt like it and not mind that much those who disagree with the changes (🧡), but believe me, all the changes I have created had been thought thoroughly to work the best one along each other and I love the way it feels to read it all over again and think of how would it work in game, moreover now that I can adjust some bits of it thanks to the feedback.

Certainly. At the end of the day, it's your suggestion so please don't feel compelled to change it just on my account. I enjoy theorycrafting game design in general, so this thread is already fun enough. I do, however, also try to push people into justifying their preferred design - not as a means of discrediting it, but as a means of improving cohesion. Only when we can confidently and convincingly justify our proposals can we be sure they're truly solid (that's not a stone/earth pun). Even when we're truly right, that's still a useful thought exercise to ensure we aren't missing anything. So don't worry about changing your design as long as you're happy with. If I failed to convince, then that's absolutely fair enough :)

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AHÁ! It is Feedback Friday!
Lets go over this!

hace 14 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

I'm a bit confused here.
You can do both of these things with an Exalted Weapon. [...]
As to gap-closing and auto-aim - I don't see why that can't be an aspect of an Exalted Weapon, either. I don't think we quite have the same precedent for melee weapons doing this already, but I don't expect it's mechanically difficult to pull off. After all, Landslide already works like a quasi-melee-weapon as it is.


-Landslide doesn't need to be balanced weak. [...] The only thing that needs to change is the method for triggering it.-
 

 As of right now, Landslide often comes down to "hammer key, profit." Turning it into a proper melee weapon would at least give it a bit of complexity.

----------

All of this you could easily do to Landslide itself :)
I'd say you're still splitting a single ability between two separate ability slots. You could easily move all of the Atlas Punching mechanics into one ability, all of the Rumblers mechanics into the other and have synergy between the two. You don't need to have the punching mechanics split half-and-half.

So, lets first take a look at your feedback for Landslide & Rumblers;

I have been giving some thought to what you have said, and I think I have come with the best idea to satisfy us both, and perhaps everyone else.
While I liked my own idea of making Landslide into an exalted weapon that generated minions when casted, I comprehend this can be simplified, way, oversimplified.

It is because of that I have decided to put Tremors (This will be the name of the exalted weapon || Exhalted Tremors / Exhalted Prime Tremors) as part of Landslide, like you've requested, and make his first ability be his exalted weapon too. Stills, Landslide as an ability and "melee attack" will still be present.

How do we do that? Easy:

  • Tapping Landslide will do what Landslide has always done: Punch fools and get you close to them.
  • Holding Landslide will forge Tremors and let you use them.
     
    • By making this, we can have his exhalted weapon & gap-closing function all in one single button, cool right?
    • I also wanted to get rid of the Stat-Stick requirement, so like I have previously mentioned, Tremors as an exhalted weapon will have its own modding grid & combo counter, which will also affect Landslide's damage output...
       
      • Which, is now based on Tremor's base stats, except for the base damage aspect, this one will be considerably higher to make up for the fact that we will be consuming energy by having Tremors' active, and casting Landslide at too.
         
  • On a very particular note, some of the combos I had designed for Tremors make use of the Golems themselves, but it is mostly for heavy attacks, so until Rumblers as an ability is unlocked, Tremors would perform regular heavy attacks with no effects or addition to them. As if it were stanceless, basically.

     

Rumblers were a bit of a r/Hmmm too, but I think I know what to do with them now.
Lets leave Rumblers as they are right now, 4th ability of Atlas' kit, no Tremors, but they now make use of Rubble too.

First off, I thought it is stupid to make Golems killable when they already have a timer. Not quite a smart development choice this was, if you ask me.
There are two ways to fix this;

  • Make Golems unkillable and be timer-rigged, making Atlas builds require of duration to work too (unlike right now).
    • Meaning you would have to recast the ability from time to time for them to still be with you.
       
  • Make Golems have no time limit but limited resistance [Health].
    • Meaning you could heal them with Petrify to keep them alive.

And I think the second option is better for the following reasons:

  1. Casting Petrify, as we are making it Atlas' 2nd ability, is way cheaper than casting Rumblers (50e vs 100e) even if both can petrify. [LoS vs AoE]
     
  2. Since Rumblers will make use of Rubble for their formula, which I will explain on a second as I've been thinking of something for that, it will be Rubble consuming-less to heal them instead of having to recast the ability. (Who am I lying to, my brain is creating all of these ideas as I type, can't help it, it's how I am)
     
  3. It is simply faster to cast Petrify, though you'll have to hit both Golems and if they happen to be beating the crap outta someone and you can't see them, it might be hard.

 

Now, as we are making Rumblers take damage for Atlas, they will need to be tough guys to endure all the damage.

So a first for Golems, as they are energy-commanded rocks with no flesh, I thought it would be nice to make them completely immune to all status, or ragdolls/staggers.
But, no, as status and ragdolls already do not affect them, but, what if they absorbed the status that affected Atlas while they are alive, taking the damage for him instead?
And a portion of the damage itself too, that is. 40% should be good but numbers are always subjective to change.

With that out of the way lets take a look at the formula for their HP.
Current: (insert sum poor stats lol)
New: Atlas Hp & (Current Atlas armour* + Rubble) x 200%. Basically the beefier you are, the beefier they are. The multiplier would scale with power strenth, so full Umbral set could be optimal.
*Using Bulk Up would mean to be unkillable for Golems at this point, and so it would be for Atlas LMAO

 

And lastly, your arguments about the golems' petrifying people: I still feel they shouldn't petrify on hit, but, perhaps Golems could have 2 abilities they use based on how many enemies do they have within range: Landslide and Petrify.

Golems are pretty dumb when it comes to pathfinding, and not the fastest either, so perhaps allowing them to petrify when they feel like it, or whenever you do too, could work as a way to cover x3 more terrain. Same time, letting them Landslide to get closer to targets quickly would help their "DPS" which will now be dictated by Landslide/Tremors modding and combo counter.
Now, Titanic Rumbler could cause the single golem to have AoE attacks all the time, and petrify targets with them ,or perhaps cause staggers with each step due to its massive size. This way, Petrify could still be used as a source of healing it, or to get petrified some enemies the Golem might not be targeting.

 

That should do it for Landslide and Rumblers topic, on to the next one,

hace 1 hora, Steel_Rook dijo:

I'm not sure Volt's shields are a great example, though. They're kind of... really bad as a defensive ability. [...] (I'll have to agree on that but they were the best example)

I don't necessarily think that an arc of stone is useless, especially if you make it large enough. I just don't quite follow why you feel that a full circle of stone couldn't serve the same purpose. [...] Just... why is an arc superior to a circle in this case?

Oh, and as a passing thought. You had an "Iron Skin" Augment for Tectonics. I wanted to tie that Stone Skin with the Rumblers, such that damage you block doesn't just go away, but instead erodes the Rumblers. You could easily do this and just call it a "synergy." My problem with it is that this would create something of a clunky synergy. It would mean I'd need to summon a wall every time I wanted armour, even if I don't want to summon a wall at the moment. It would, I think, lead to the unintended behaviour of Atlas having to run off and throw away the wall somewhere out of sight, just so he can get the damage redirection buff.

Additionally, because taking damage boosts the Rumblers' offensive output [...]

And that's all assuming that Stone Skin isn't an Augment, mind you :) Which I strongly believe it shouldn't be.

Tectonics & Bulk Up, seems there's been a misunderstanding for these.

First off, I don't think an arc is superior nor that it couldn't serve the same purpose to a ring/orb by any means, we all know that already seeing how Gara/Frost/Limbo work, it is just that every frame needs to be different and feel different and I (in my stupid head making things for a sci-fi game) do like to give a bit or realism and coherency to things.
Reason why I wouldn't like another ring/hemisphere made is because it would end up being the same all over again, but with different looks/name to it. And tectonic formations little to no times do form hollow spheres, unless we are talking about geodes, but that is a very particular exception to the rule. Another thing that is "close" to a stone ring could be a volcano's interior, or a landmark from an asteroid impact, but all in all, that type of geophysical formation seems... odd to me.
An arc would be more like a cliff, and that is something that I understand completely how it is formed and shaped over its lifetime, plus it would give the "uniqueness" to Atlas' defensive ability.

Point is, I don't think a ring can't work, if so it would work even better, but as I explained on the original post, because I am changing Tectonics health formula they would become the strongest deffensive measure in the game, and it would be unfair to make it a spherical/360º protection layer like Frost, because then Frost would then stop being that good at what he does, which is defend in area. And also, Tectonics are physical so enemies wouldn't be able to walk though them like with Mass Vitrify, so again, making a copy of those abilities seems completely unnecessary to me.

A thing we could do to create "rings" or close to a sphere, is the same I have proposed above for Landslide: Tap to create the "cliff-like" bulkwrath, and hold to rise a bigger and rounder wall that would surround you and your allies. Think of it like a Pac-Man shaped object.

 

Seems you didn't quite understand the concept of the Bulk Up augment.

Allow me to explain again in detail: Bulk Up would be an augment that totally changes the purpose of Tectonic's as an ability.
Instead of building a stationary bulkwrath using part of your stored rubble, you consume that rubble to infuse it on yourself and gain more health and armour permanently, or til you die. After casting you also gain a 35% increase to your rubble cap, so it would go from 1500 to (((1500 + 35%)+35)+35%...) which translates to each cast increasing your armour, rubble cap, and health.
Now, because this also means you would have more health to recover each time you were hurt, the adquisition of Rubble should scale at the exact same rate, a 35% more healing and armour for each time Tectonic Bulk Up is casted. [First cast would mean that targets killed by allies or guns would grant (50→ 67'5), and the ones from ability kills (200 → 270)]

Speaking in numbers, lets say you have your base Atlas with its nice 450 armour and classic 300 hp.
You attain the max Rubble cap by default of 1500, now you have 1950 of armour, but this will decay, unless, you cast Tectonics with this augment.
Now, your Atlas has 1950 of undecaying armour, 1050 hp, and 2025 of max Rubble. So:

  1. 100% of rubble amount is used to increase armour
  2. 50% of that value is used to increase heatlh
     

This augment is more oriented towards solo endless play, and to give Atlas a missing "Titan" feel, as it would technically give you endless scaling survivability.
It is not just, cast a wall and leave it somewhere else, it is becoming the wall yourself. Stills, it could perfectly work on group play, as long as you are going for a long walk.

 

Moving on moving on, what is next on the list?

hace 7 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

Certainly. At the end of the day, it's your suggestion so please don't feel compelled to change it just on my account.
I enjoy theorycrafting game design in general, so this thread is already fun enough. I do, however, also try to push people into justifying their preferred design - not as a means of discrediting it, but as a means of improving cohesion. Only when we can confidently and convincingly justify our proposals can we be sure they're truly solid (that's not a stone/earth pun). Even when we're truly right, that's still a useful thought exercise to ensure we aren't missing anything.

So don't worry about changing your design as long as you're happy with. If I failed to convince, then that's absolutely fair enough :)

And I am closing this reply (Once again) giving a thank you for your feedback.

While it is totally correct I should enjoy myself the most my frame rework proposals, I still think it is rather important to take into account other's opinion so we can polish the product to its apex of performance and design.
I understand however, that if I were to take into account all possible outputs, comments, ideas and suggestions, it would be ultimately impossible to make a proposal everyone would agree with, for we all would need to think alike, and that is impossible as people have their own opinions and way of thinking each that make us unique & distinctive.

I hope this time I've managed to clarify things well enough (Looking at Tectonics and Bulk Up) and found the best of both worlds to fuse together (Landslide, Tremors and Rumblers), if not, I'll be glad to keep explaining it til it is as clear as the water on Cetus bays.

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13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

AHÁ! It is Feedback Friday! Lets go over this!

Sure! I already see a lot of things here that I like :)

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:
  • Tapping Landslide will do what Landslide has always done: Punch fools and get you close to them.
  • Holding Landslide will forge Tremors and let you use them.

Huh... OK, that's a clever idea. Tap for "Quick Landslide," hold to "Equip Landslide" (so to speak, names aside). I like that. It's how the melee weapon system works, after all. Tap to melee without switching, hold to switch. That makes sense. If I have any quibbles, they're not really meaningful enough to bring up. This is an excellent compromise because it gives you the "Quick Landslide" you wanted to retain while also merging the Exalted Melee Weapon into Landslide exactly like I wanted. Best of both worlds. No further comment.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:
  • Make Golems unkillable and be timer-rigged, making Atlas builds require of duration to work too (unlike right now).
    • Meaning you would have to recast the ability from time to time for them to still be with you.
  • Make Golems have no time limit but limited resistance [Health].
    • Meaning you could heal them with Petrify to keep them alive.

And I think the second option is better for the following reasons:

Completely agreed. This is a personal thing, but I always prefer permanent summons (pets or objects) with some kind of other limitation. Limited charges, limited resource, only one at a time, can be killed, etc. I'd much rather have permanent Rumblers that can be killed over unkillable Rumblers on a time limit. The former simply gives us more interesting options to play with, such as modding them for durability and healing them, and the aforementioned sharing damage with them. That last one I REALLY want to do in some fashion, by the way - redirecting damage from Atlas to his Rumblers. It's a great way to give him a bit of extra durability while creating a bit more complexity to his playstyle.

As to Status, I think you had the right idea - absorb both a portion of the damage done to Atlas and ALL status effects done to him. This one actually seems fairly obvious, because a critter already exists which does this exact thing: the Infested Ancient Healer. Basically, Atlas' Rumblers could work as mini-Ancient Healers. It would be a neat way to give him full status immunity by proxy (something a lot of "Tank" Warframes already have) without just removing rendering Status meaningless. His Rumblers would still take the full brunt of that, so Atlas would still ideally want to avoid taking it. Especially when it comes to Radiation, incidentally. Sure, HE avoids the Radiation proc, but his Rumblers might sock him in the back of the head for it :)

As with Landslide, it seems like we're on roughly the same page here. Permanent killable Rumblers with the ability to absorb partial damage and full status effect done to Atlas. What about boosting their damage output for taking/absorbing damage? That seems like a neat dynamic to me - the harder you hit me, the harder my buddies hit you.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

And lastly, your arguments about the golems' petrifying people: I still feel they shouldn't petrify on hit, but, perhaps Golems could have 2 abilities they use based on how many enemies do they have within range: Landslide and Petrify.

If you're really opposed to the Rumblers petrifying people on attack, there are other ways sneak that in. We could go the Frost route - anyone who melees the Rumblers has a chance to be Petrified :) Or you could even give them an aura - anyone within 5 meters of the Rumblers has a small chance to be petrified every few seconds. I'm personally in favour of the Frost approach just because it's funny.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Reason why I wouldn't like another ring/hemisphere made is because it would end up being the same all over again, but with different looks/name to it. And tectonic formations little to no times do form hollow spheres, unless we are talking about geodes, but that is a very particular exception to the rule. Another thing that is "close" to a stone ring could be a volcano's interior, or a landmark from an asteroid impact, but all in all, that type of geophysical formation seems... odd to me.
An arc would be more like a cliff, and that is something that I understand completely how it is formed and shaped over its lifetime, plus it would give the "uniqueness" to Atlas' defensive ability.

So basically, the objection here is a combination of "theme" and "repetition?" I don't know that I agree, necessarily, but that's fair enough - I won't push the issue any further :) I think that as long as you make the wall large enough and give it an arc, then it should still work for defence objectives like I'm hoping it will. I lost the plot a little bit, though - will you allow me to summon several of them to make-shift a circle? Or do I have to make do with one? We used Volt's walls as an example before, but Volt can summon quite a few of those.

Basically, my primary bone of contention here is this: I feel that summoned defences are by far the most useful on defence objectives. As well inversely - defence objectives are a MASSIVE pain in the ass without some kind of summoned defence ability. They can be done, certainly, but they're so poorly-designed that it makes me feel like I'm "doing it wrong" attempting Defence, Mobile Defence or Excavation without some form of hard defensive ability. Granted, the issue is with those mission types and not Atlas, but it does make me feel pressured into taking certain Warframes. The more of them that have Defence-capable protection abilities, the broader my choice.

But again - I'm not going to insist on a circle. You don't want that and you've already gone out of your way to compromise :)

 

14 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Instead of building a stationary bulkwrath using part of your stored rubble, you consume that rubble to infuse it on yourself and gain more health and armour permanently, or til you die. After casting you also gain a 35% increase to your rubble cap, so it would go from 1500 to (((1500 + 35%)+35)+35%...) which translates to each cast increasing your armour, rubble cap, and health.

Ah, OK. So not Armour AND Wall, it's Armour INSTEAD OF Wall. OK, that's a fair point. That's exactly what I would hope more Augments would do - modify an ability rather than buffing it. In fact, this goes a bit beyond an Augment into a straight-up Helminth ability infusion :) Actually... I wonder if it's possible to just straight-up use that system. Instead of an ability that can be Infused into every other Warframe, this would be an Ability which could only be infused into Atlas' Ability Slot 3. That's probably a much broader "core game mechanics" system discussion, though, and off-topic. I understand what you mean and withdraw my criticism.

Unfortunately, that's replaced with a new concern. Permanent health/armour upgrades seem really, really broken - especially when they don't need to be maintained. Gara's DoT and Saryn's Infection (and other such) are already problematic, I think. This sort of system feels like it has the potential to break the game's numbers in really ugly, unpredictable ways. I understand that's kind of the point - you want infinite scaling for the player to match the infinite scaling for the enemy. I generally don't agree with that approach. As before, however - I don't feel the need to press the point. It's an augment, we can argue those separately. I feel like with how you've described Tectonics, I'm happy with Atlas' base kit as it is in this iteration :)

 

Rubble:

I'd still like to discuss Rubble on its own, though. As mentioned in previous posts, I REALLY hate the way that whole system works. I'd like to get your opinion on the two major changes I proposed for it:

  • Rubble is generated for all kills by all players within Affinity range of Atlas and deposited directly to Atlas without the need to pick up drops.
  • Rubble does not decay at all (outside of Nullifier bubbles), but is instead used up for abilities.

I tried to boil down my wall of text from before to just those two points, because they're the bulk of the changes. Atlas seems to have been one of the first Warframes introduced with his own unique resource, and as such has a really awkward mechanic for amassing and retaining it. Nidus, I think, has a much better system because Mutation stack generation doesn't depend on compound conditionals and stacks don't decay on their own. Atlas, in contrast, generates Rubble way too slowly and loses it way too quickly. Ostensibly, he can only get a decent amount in Infinite missions... and even then only if the rest of his team isn't all "Nuke Frames." Nidus has his own issues, of course, in that his Mutation stacks WAAAY too high while being both generated and used up way too slow. It creates a very static-feeling Warframe who takes forever to "shift." I'm not saying "just do Mutation." Rather, I want to have a new look at the Rubble mechanic with the fresh perspective of Warframe design innovation since Atlas' original introduction.

We spoke about theme before, so consider a thematic element: Atlas is "the mountain." He is unmovable, he is stable. We talked about making his Rumblers permanent, we talked about making his Tectonics permanent. Doesn't it make sense, then, that his Rubble would also be permanent until he chooses to use it up? Atlas is generally on the "slower" side of Warframes, so it just makes sense to me that he wouldn't also work under constant time pressure to keep a bar from going down. That makes sense for Saryn or Gauss, not so much for Atlas.

As to the issue of Petrification and Landslide, I feel this adds way, WAAAY too much in the form of compound conditionals. You have to petrify enemies before your team-mates kill them, then you have to Landslide petrified enemies before they wake up and before your team-mates kill them. All of this to keep a number from constantly going down. So not only do you need a LOT of enemies to make this mechanic work, but you also need a team that'll sit on their hands while you work it. I feel that simply letting Atlas get Rubble by fighting normally without any of the conditionals would make for a far more compelling system AND give him enough surplus to actually burn Rubble as a resource. A system like this already works perfectly well for Inaros' Scarab Swarm, albeit his is far easier to build up than even what I'm proposing.

All of Atlas' other design issues aside, Rubble is the one I hate by far the most because it's easily the most restrictive and cumbersome of his systems.

 

14 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I hope this time I've managed to clarify things well enough (Looking at Tectonics and Bulk Up) and found the best of both worlds to fuse together (Landslide, Tremors and Rumblers), if not, I'll be glad to keep explaining it til it is as clear as the water on Cetus bays.

Yup. At this point, I pretty much have only side comments on his core kit :) The only matter I think that's left is Rubble itself. Thank you kindly for humouring me. It's always nice to find a constructive discussion.

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It is only by committing mistakes that we can fix them and become better. So lets go at it again:

hace 2 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

If you're really opposed to the Rumblers petrifying people on attack, there are other ways sneak that in. We could go the Frost route - anyone who melees the Rumblers has a chance to be Petrified :) Or you could even give them an aura - anyone within 5 meters of the Rumblers has a small chance to be petrified every few seconds. I'm personally in favour of the Frost approach just because it's funny.

I think petrifying on attack, given they also have ranged attacks and like I said their performance would be based on Tremors' modding (meaning that the more attack speed mods you have, arcanes included, the faster they would attack too) would bee too much. Now, looking at what you said of going "The Frost way", the only enemies who would melee them (consistently, that is) would be the Infested, so it wouldn't be that reliable against other factions either. However, we can create something similar to the old Petrify, combined with Gloom.

What if: Golems had a petrifying aura? The longer targets remain on it, the slower they become until they get completely petrified, 'til you kill them that is, as if it takes 3-4 seconds to fully petrify someone it would be a bummer they get de-petrified in about 8. That way building for Range would be even more worth it instead of focusing on strength.

That should do it.

hace 2 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I think that as long as you make the wall large enough and give it an arc, then it should still work for defence objectives like I'm hoping it will. I lost the plot a little bit, though - will you allow me to summon several of them to make-shift a circle? Or do I have to make do with one?

We used Volt's walls as an example before, but Volt can summon quite a few of those.

No. I won't allow you to generate multiple arcs of these unless you equip Tectonic Fracture.

Given we have changed it so that range mods also affect the º of these walls, starting at 70º on 100%, with just Stretch you'd get 102º and with (don't recall name) Drift, 112º. By creating all the 3 bulkwraths as the augment allows by tapping, you'd cover 336º of whatever you choose to cover, which isn't all that bad, right?
Holding cast would blow 'em up with the augment, but tapping again can be used to put a new wall again if you haven't placed one correctly.

As for the single Bulkwrath (No augments) lemme give you an example you should be able to easily visualize mentally:
-Single tap generates a wall with the shape of a Volt shield, but covers more the sides.
-As for hold-casting: take a fish bowl, one of those round ones with an aperture on top of them. Cut it in half vertically, and now, take one of the halves and put it on its side. That would be how hold-casting Tectonics (without the augment) would look at max extension. Like the wave of a tsunami about to fall on you, with one single open angle to be attacked from, behind.

Once again this is an example on how having a kit with abilities that make use of different stats (Duration vs Strength vs Range) allows for great build variety depending on what would you like to do.

 

hace 2 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

Unfortunately, that's replaced with a new concern. Permanent health/armour upgrades seem really, really broken - especially when they don't need to be maintained. Gara's DoT and Saryn's Infection (and other such) are already problematic, I think. This sort of system feels like it has the potential to break the game's numbers in really ugly, unpredictable ways. I understand that's kind of the point - you want infinite scaling for the player to match the infinite scaling for the enemy.

I mean, Rhino's Iron Skin can (technically) scale limitlessly too, and it protects you from all status effects without requiring of any augment*. It is true what I suggest with Bulk Up could turn Atlast into a literally immortal tank, but you'd need to be way more active than to just press Iron skin when it wears of after rolling with Rolling Guard to prevent from getting 1 tapped. Building Rubble the higher cap you have is slower as increasing a 35% of 1500 periodically is much more than increasing a 35% of 50-200, meaning that building to max Rubble to be as efficient as possible would be slower the longer you go on, so to get the most amazing unpenetrable armour ever, you could perhaps need to stay for hours. And not just 1-2, way more. It is because of that I think it wouldn't be that broken as Gara's DoT which depends on Combo & Stat stick, or Saryn spores which consistently and continuously scale.

Also, you would need to have over 75% of your rubble meter filled for this to work, as if not, simply spamming the ability to gain limitless rubble cap from the very beggining would be broken. It  is a slow and consistent process, like the one of mountains.(!)

I understand your concern though.

*Though it is true that to get even better results out of it an augment is in order, but it is for Rhinecharge.

hace 2 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

Rubble:

I'd still like to discuss Rubble on its own, though. As mentioned in previous posts, I REALLY hate the way that whole system works. I'd like to get your opinion on the two major changes I proposed for it:

  • Rubble is generated for all kills by all players within Affinity range of Atlas and deposited directly to Atlas without the need to pick up drops.
  • Rubble does not decay at all (outside of Nullifier bubbles), but is instead used up for abilities.

 

We spoke about theme before, so consider a thematic element: Atlas is "the mountain." He is unmovable, he is stable. We talked about making his Rumblers permanent, we talked about making his Tectonics permanent. Doesn't it make sense, then, that his Rubble would also be permanent until he chooses to use it up?
Atlas is generally on the "slower" side of Warframes, so it just makes sense to me that he wouldn't also work under constant time pressure to keep a bar from going down. That makes sense for Saryn or Gauss, not so much for Atlas.

As to the issue of Petrification and Landslide, I feel this adds way, WAAAY too much in the form of compound conditionals. You have to petrify enemies before your team-mates kill them, then you have to Landslide petrified enemies before they wake up and before your team-mates kill them. All of this to keep a number from constantly going down. So not only do you need a LOT of enemies to make this mechanic work, but you also need a team that'll sit on their hands while you work it. I feel that simply letting Atlas get Rubble by fighting normally without any of the conditionals would make for a far more compelling system AND give him enough surplus to actually burn Rubble as a resource. A system like this already works perfectly well for Inaros' Scarab Swarm, albeit his is far easier to build up than even what I'm proposing.

All of Atlas' other design issues aside, Rubble is the one I hate by far the most because it's easily the most restrictive and cumbersome of his systems.

I have designed it so that only two of his abilities make use of Rubble: Tectonics and Rumblers.

Still, I do not think Atlas should gain this resource so easily as to simply be part of a squad and be within affinity range to gain it from other's kills, as enemies aren't made of stone so it would make no sense to get rocks out of flesh, nor retain it with no dacay factor as rubble is a group of individual fragments of variable size with no union in between. I like to believe Atlas uses a minimal part of his energy to maintain rubble sticked to his body but he cannot do it perfectly without having to fully focus on it.
What if a squad were composed of 4 Atlas' then?
Everyone would get rubble by simply killing and using Petrify would be rendered useless and uneeded completely.

Then, there's his kit in general. Atlas is not a team oriented frame with any of his abilities, not even Tectonics. Only arguable case would be Ore Gaze Petrify.
He is more of a solo with self-support, so he has to get his resources hisself, not passively from everyone, as if not, what would be the point of casting Petrify which costs energy and has a limited range plus would require you to use yet another ability to kill enemies to get the rubble, when using an explosive weapon or letting others kill would be faster?

This [(!)] also ties to how Bulk Up is an augment designed for solo play. Yes, you would become extremely resilent but Rubble decays, and to obtain it once you are at a couple casts of this ability, would be way slower. That is the balance of it.

Another point is how Rumblers would be a single cast as long as you keep healing them with petrify. You wouldn't consume rubble anymore after generating them, you would use it only for Tectonics which honestly, on most missions, a defensive measure isn't required, just CC, which the Golems with the aforementioned Petrifying Aura already provide.

 


Like you yourself have stated, Atlas is on the slow side of frames (not that it is by much looking at his Prime honestly) so there's no reason to give him a super fast buildup for Rubble as much as it might be annoying that it decays or that it cannot be obtained easily on public matches. I personally play in solo all the time unless my friends are connected and honestly I can still get rubble easily with them because we go in group and my Atlas build has considerable range on it

Generally speaking Atlas isn't currently suited for group play, as other frames do what he does intrinsically better, and I don't think he should be reworked to be at pair with them at what they do for then what would be the point of using those frames if there's one that can do all of it at the same time and as well, or pehaps better.

I understand the frustration of not being able to gain that resource you as a frame need for your kit, but the way this rework is designed isn't so you can't cast Tectonics or Rumblers when you have no rubble, it simply means they wouldn't be as resilent and cost more energy instead, that's all.

Increasing the amount of rubble gained per ability kills should be enough, for what does one want rubble for if he is barely likely to die when he has a squad to revive and support him, plus most probably buff him? Rubble doesn't upgrade his offensive capabilities but his deffensive ones, and when we are a team, our defence and offence is way more powerful as to be concerned about tanking like 1 single player. 

 

To end this one, I see Atlas more like a Titan than just an earthbender, even if that is part of his thematic. If he really were an earthbender, his kit could easily focus more on controlling the terrain around him instead of creating stones from his body that can defend, attack, or help him fight foes. Now then, if there's more polishing to be made, we can continue to adjust it or if we have finally decided on a middle point where more or less both parties are satisfied, I could edit the main article to reflect these changes and end it, til someone else shows legitimate interest on it, that is. I'll be waiting more responses.

Edited by (PSN)Pablogamer585
Had a lapsus while writing something and skipped to next line leaving it uncompleted :P
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It seems we've reached the point of agreeing to disagree on what we're actually trying to accomplish. You've already been quite generous in compromising with me, so I can't ask for more in good faith :) I do, however, want to outline a few of my ideological disagreements, just for the sake of context.

 

20 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Given we have changed it so that range mods also affect the º of these walls, starting at 70º on 100%, with just Stretch you'd get 102º and with (don't recall name) Drift, 112º. By creating all the 3 bulkwraths as the augment allows by tapping, you'd cover 336º of whatever you choose to cover, which isn't all that bad, right?
Holding cast would blow 'em up with the augment, but tapping again can be used to put a new wall again if you haven't placed one correctly.

My ideological criticism here is that I see pretty much no benefit to non-spherical protective barriers in Warframe. Volt kinda-sorta gets away with it for reasons we discussed earlier, but I simply don't see the merit of retaining that design in the here-and-now. All Warframes (including Atlas) are highly mobile. Static defences tie us down to a single spot, making us more vulnerable to grenades and Nullifiers and generally being flanked. "Cover" in general no longer has meaning in this game, especially for Atlas who - in your design - is a tank without shields. He gets even less benefit from breaking line of sight. I simply can't think of any situation where I'd even want to bother using tectonics if it doesn't offer full 360 degree protection.

Now, you can argue that I could just take the Augment which allows me to drop three walls and make a sort-of circle, if I mod for range. I would argue that this should be baseline functionality, rather than requiring and Augment and a dedicated build, because that's quite literally the only use I personally have of static defence abilities. I use hard fortifications on missions where I'm tasked with defending a fragile objective in the middle of wide open space. I can't move the objective, I can't kill enemies before they fire on it from long range, I need some kind of barrier between it and them. That's quite literally the only situation I can think of where hard fortifications are useful, and that situation more or less requires a full circle if not a full sphere. Anything less means an ability I would replace with something else.

You cited Tectonics as being "the strongest" defensive ability in the game due to its health in an earlier post. I failed to comment on it at the time, but I simply don't see that. The strongest defensive abilities in the game are Limbo's Cataclysm and Frost's Snowglobe, in that order, by a country mile before anything else. Cataclysm is a full invulnerable sphere which makes defence objectives immune to damage from the outside while serving as a full hold inside. Snowglobe is a full sphere with up to 1 000 000 health which serves as soft control inside. I simply don't see how anything that's not a sphere can beat those two. It quite literally doesn't matter how much health you give Atlas' Tectonics, I simply don't see it competing with Cataclysm and Snowglobe in the one and only situation where defensive abilities are actually useful.

Like I said - you've already compromised enough so I don't want you to change your mind just on my say-so. However, your alterations to Tectonics don't really solve the central issue I have with it right now on Live and so don't really change my decisions to dump it for something else.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

mean, Rhino's Iron Skin can (technically) scale limitlessly too, and it protects you from all status effects without requiring of any augment*.

I assume you're referring to Reinforcing Stomp? Because Iron Skin can't scale limitlessly. You can only recast it once it's depleted, so the maximum Iron Skin you can get is whatever you can achieve in a single activation. Sure, you can stack up a lot of armour bonuses and stack up something like 100K Iron Skin, but you'd need to wait for that Iron Skin to deplete before you stack more. And because Iron Skin isn't affected by shields or armour (or really, most forms of damage resistance), it's not equivalent to THAT much EHP. Iron Skin is basically an overhealth/heal mechanic similar to old-school City of Heroes Dull Pain. It doesn't so much "stack" as it just periodically overheals you.

I went back and looked at your proposal for Bulwark, and it's quite different. You propose adding "non-decaying" armour, meaning armour Atlas is never going to lose. This is wholly different from Iron Skin, as Rhino will always go back to base stats once Iron Skin expires. It's different from Nidus, as well - when he dies multiple times, he loses stacks of Mutation and can potentially be brought back down to little or nothing. Your Bulwark proposal is instead permanent. This is unique as far as I can tell, and has the potential to be fully game-breaking. I say "game-breaking" because it goes counter to the design of infinite content. If you look at it historically, the enemy level/stat ramp-up in infinite content was a means of forcing players out of the mission by making it too hard to continue, in lieu of having a discrete mandatory end point. By designing a Warframe which scales with enemy level, you fundamentally undermine the central premise of those missions.

I have no dog in the race anyway since I find endless content to be some of the least compelling that Warframe has to offer. Fair enough. This sort of design paradigm has the potential to be a non-starter when pitching this as a realistic Live game patch, though. Of all the things we've discussed here, this is the one I don't expect DE would accept for for the above reasons. Again - not trying to change your mind, so much as offer a word of caution. Infinite uncapped scaling is dangerous no matter the cost involved.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Like you yourself have stated, Atlas is on the slow side of frames (not that it is by much looking at his Prime honestly) so there's no reason to give him a super fast buildup for Rubble as much as it might be annoying that it decays or that it cannot be obtained easily on public matches. I personally play in solo all the time unless my friends are connected and honestly I can still get rubble easily with them because we go in group and my Atlas build has considerable range on it

I'll be speaking on the whole subject, but I picked this specific snippet to quote because I think it highlights my dissonance. You describe Atlas as being a "slow" Warframe (to the extent that anything in Warframe is slow), but you use this argument to defend a system which requires very fast gameplay. If Atlas plays thematically slowly, Rubble decays and he loses his central mechanic. The only way to stay on top of Rubble - especially since you now have abilities which drain it - is to run around like a man possessed punching everything that looks at you funny. This is precisely why I don't enjoy playing Atlas - because I'm always in a rush to punch more people before I run out of Rubble and lose my additional defences. Currently, he shares the same issue with Nidus in that his mechanic only really works in infinite content where enough enemy density is present to build up Rubble faster than it decays. That's not a "slow" Warframe in my book. That's a very fast Warframe for whom everything is ESO. The whole reason I proposed removing Rubble decays was specifically to slow him down, allowing me to actually explore the map or do things other than constantly hammer my 1 key. Or more broadly, to make Atlas more palatable in non-Infinite content.

I'm also really not sure I can accept the "Atlas is not a team Warframe." Like you, I solo most if not all of the time. I don't need Atlas to be any more team-friendly to appeal TO ME. However, I'm not trying to design a Warframe to appeal to just me. It needs to fit within the paradigm of the broader game, else what we end up with is a very, very niche product. Atlas doesn't need to necessarily have team synergy - I'd argue no Warframe needs that. But he does need to not compete with the rest of the team, either. This is the exact same reason nobody likes to team with Limbo outside of very specific circumstances. There's nothing wrong with Limbo himself, but people who play him are disruptive to the rest of the team more often than not. I can't really see a justification of knowing that Atlas suffers on teams and doing nothing about it. All Warframes - even the ones built to appeal to solo players - need compromises in their design to make them function properly on a team.

Then there's also the thematic argument. I'm willing to accept this for Tectonics, but not for Rubble. If we can come up with a good mechanic that doesn't fit the Rubble concept, we can redesign the Rubble concept. Look at Nidus. He gains stacks of "mutation" by simply hitting people with his abilities. There's no real explanation for how that actually happens, but nobody really cares. You hit them with ground spikes, you build up stacks. I'd argue that Nidus has a FAAAR better inherent mechanic than Atlas does. His doesn't decay unless used, he doesn't need to compete with team-mates for last-hits and he doesn't need a two-step process to gather it. Nidus has a plethora of issues all his own, but Mutation isn't one of them. You could easily change Atlas' Rubble mechanic to, say, "Momentum" or even something as simple as "Dominance." The more enemies he kills, the more dominant he becomes. The more abilities he uses, the more enemies he has to kill to become dominant again.

Personally, I feel that if Atlas wants to be a proper Tank (or a Titan), then he needs to compare favourably against the likes of Inaros and Nidus. Inaros has a nearly cost-less inherent resource of Scarab Armour. Yes, it costs ~3000 health to cast, but health is something that Inaros can generate quite easily. Scarab Armour doesn't decay unless used, or unless it absorbs status effects (as I feel that Negation Swarm should be inherent and not an Augment). Nidus I already addressed, but broadly: he has a slow-generating, non-decaying resources which is only used either actively to power otherwise-free abilities or passively should Nidus die. He's a lot more static due to the Field of Floppy Penises (I forget what that ability is called) and the Parasitic Link so I have some proposals to make about him. However, he has a far more "Titan-like" gameplay of slowly building up to great power than Atlas' "rush-to-punch" playstyle.

With all of that said, though, I am still selfishly-motivated. I don't like playing against the clock of a constantly-decaying resource that I actually need. I feel that Atlas would work better if his Rubble drained not over time, but when he used it. In my opinion, resources always work better when they're used up intentionally, than when they decay on their own. You can even foster a similar "gotta' go fast" playstyle by tuning the rate of resource generation vs. the rate of use from abilities. Atlas could still be driven to aggressively always punch people. It just wouldn't be because he's racing the clock, but rather because he'd want to use more of his fun abilities more often - exactly like Nidus does.

But again - that's personal preference. You don't need to change your proposal just to cater to me :)

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Everyone would get rubble by simply killing and using Petrify would be rendered useless and uneeded completely.

This notion confuses me. Are you suggesting that the only use for Petrify is to generate Rubble? Because if so, then I'd argue that's really bad design. An ability which exists solely to tag enemies for another ability's effect is what I'd consider needless bloat. If I were to run into a system like that, I'd drop the intermediary ability entirely and either make the effect inherent or bake it into another ability. Note that this is precisely what happened to Ember's Accelerant when she was redesigned - it doesn't exist any more, because it was an unnecessary intermediary step which took up an ability slot that could have been used for something else.

I don't think that's the case for Atlas, though. Petrify isn't just a means to Rubble - it's a very powerful hard control ability. It disregards enemy facing, it has a very long base duration and it affects enemies in a massive cone. Almost no other Warframe has a hold this powerful, and certainly not any of the Tank Frames. Sure, Inaros has a few control abilities but his Sand requires enemies to face him and is fairly short-duration while Scarab Swarm allows enemies to fire through it. Frost has a single-target hold and an expensive AoE hold, but both are fairly short-duration. Atlas has an easily-attainable large-scale hold. That's incredibly vaulable, far more so than any interaction it has with his other abilities.

I don't THINK you're suggesting that control abilities have no use, but just in case - hard control is very powerful in Warframe where the player needs to do more than just kill enemies as fast as possible. Despite Tectonics being pretty bad for defence (currently on Live), Petrify makes up a lot of ground because it can lock down large groups of enemies at long range. When designing Warframe abilities, I'm of the opinion that each must be powerful and useful in its own right BEFORE any synergies are considered. Synergy is important, don't get me wrong, but it should only ever enhance an already good ability. Synergy should never be a means of making a bad ability worth using - improving the ability should do that.

Rhino is the perfect example of doing this wrong. His charge is absolutely awful and entirely useless, but equally can't just dump it for a better ability because of Ironclad Charge. I don't need the Charge itself, I need it as a button to push that gives me more Iron Skin. That's bad design, because Charge isn't an ability - it's a placeholder for another ability. Essentially, Iron Skin occupies 2 ability slots. If I were redesigning Rhino, I'd either dump Ironclad Charge or merge it with Iron Skin and then give him a different 1 ability altogether.

In short, Atlas' Petrify is a very strong ability which can easily survive not being required for Rubble. In my estimate, at least.

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Now then, if there's more polishing to be made, we can continue to adjust it or if we have finally decided on a middle point where more or less both parties are satisfied, I could edit the main article to reflect these changes and end it, til someone else shows legitimate interest on it, that is. I'll be waiting more responses.

I don't think there's more we can do here, as we're starting to diverge a bit too far. If you're happy with your previous proposal, I'd say go with that and disregard this post - it's more for context than anything else. Probably best to let other people pitch in, moving forward :)

A parting sideways comment I couldn't fit anywhere else, though:

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

What if: Golems had a petrifying aura? The longer targets remain on it, the slower they become until they get completely petrified, 'til you kill them that is, as if it takes 3-4 seconds to fully petrify someone it would be a bummer they get de-petrified in about 8. That way building for Range would be even more worth it instead of focusing on strength.

I considered suggesting a petrifying aura around the Rumblers, but ended up not proposing it. If you're worried about the Rumblers Petrifying too much due to their single-target attacks, then an aura like that would petrify substantially more. I'd suggest a model of how much "too much" petrification (petrified enemies per unit of time, petrification uptime, etc.) and going from there. As it stands, we're using very vague terminology :)

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hace 18 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

My ideological criticism here is that I see pretty much no benefit to non-spherical protective barriers in Warframe. Volt kinda-sorta gets away with it for reasons we discussed earlier, but I simply don't see the merit of retaining that design in the here-and-now. All Warframes (including Atlas) are highly mobile. Static defences tie us down to a single spot, making us more vulnerable to grenades and Nullifiers and generally being flanked. "Cover" in general no longer has meaning in this game, especially for Atlas who - in your design - is a tank without shields. He gets even less benefit from breaking line of sight. I simply can't think of any situation where I'd even want to bother using tectonics if it doesn't offer full 360 degree protection.

Now, you can argue that I could just take the Augment which allows me to drop three walls and make a sort-of circle, if I mod for range. I would argue that this should be baseline functionality, rather than requiring and Augment and a dedicated build, because that's quite literally the only use I personally have of static defence abilities. I use hard fortifications on missions where I'm tasked with defending a fragile objective in the middle of wide open space. I can't move the objective, I can't kill enemies before they fire on it from long range, I need some kind of barrier between it and them. That's quite literally the only situation I can think of where hard fortifications are useful, and that situation more or less requires a full circle if not a full sphere. Anything less means an ability I would replace with something else.

You cited Tectonics as being "the strongest" defensive ability in the game due to its health in an earlier post. I failed to comment on it at the time, but I simply don't see that. The strongest defensive abilities in the game are Limbo's Cataclysm and Frost's Snowglobe, in that order, by a country mile before anything else. Cataclysm is a full invulnerable sphere which makes defence objectives immune to damage from the outside while serving as a full hold inside. Snowglobe is a full sphere with up to 1 000 000 health which serves as soft control inside. I simply don't see how anything that's not a sphere can beat those two. It quite literally doesn't matter how much health you give Atlas' Tectonics, I simply don't see it competing with Cataclysm and Snowglobe in the one and only situation where defensive abilities are actually useful.

Like I said - you've already compromised enough so I don't want you to change your mind just on my say-so. However, your alterations to Tectonics don't really solve the central issue I have with it right now on Live and so don't really change my decisions to dump it for something else.

Hey come on man you're skipping on the part where said that I'd let you hold Tectonics without requiring to equip Tectonic Fracture to create a rock blob around you with an opening towards the back-end of it depending on how long you held the ability button to raise it :P

And yes I cited Tectonics to be the strongest defensive measure after this rework for I changed the formula and increased the time window that allows them to absorb damage, which would be also way wider if you hold-cast. That should put it at pair with Frosty's globe or even stronger, that was the idea, even if it can't completely cover the objective.

So no, I won't change Tectonics, I think we reached a good point for everyone to like it but you skipped a bit of what was written, can't blame you since it is wall of text after wall of text.  (⌐■_■)

hace 22 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

I assume you're referring to Reinforcing Stomp? Because Iron Skin can't scale limitlessly. You can only recast it once it's depleted, so the maximum Iron Skin you can get is whatever you can achieve in a single activation. Sure, you can stack up a lot of armour bonuses and stack up something like 100K Iron Skin, but you'd need to wait for that Iron Skin to deplete before you stack more. And because Iron Skin isn't affected by shields or armour (or really, most forms of damage resistance), it's not equivalent to THAT much EHP. Iron Skin is basically an overhealth/heal mechanic similar to old-school City of Heroes Dull Pain. It doesn't so much "stack" as it just periodically overheals you.

I went back and looked at your proposal for Bulwark, and it's quite different. You propose adding "non-decaying" armour, meaning armour Atlas is never going to lose. This is wholly different from Iron Skin, as Rhino will always go back to base stats once Iron Skin expires. It's different from Nidus, as well - when he dies multiple times, he loses stacks of Mutation and can potentially be brought back down to little or nothing. Your Bulwark proposal is instead permanent. This is unique as far as I can tell, and has the potential to be fully game-breaking. I say "game-breaking" because it goes counter to the design of infinite content. If you look at it historically, the enemy level/stat ramp-up in infinite content was a means of forcing players out of the mission by making it too hard to continue, in lieu of having a discrete mandatory end point. By designing a Warframe which scales with enemy level, you fundamentally undermine the central premise of those missions.

I have no dog in the race anyway since I find endless content to be some of the least compelling that Warframe has to offer. Fair enough. This sort of design paradigm has the potential to be a non-starter when pitching this as a realistic Live game patch, though. Of all the things we've discussed here, this is the one I don't expect DE would accept for for the above reasons. Again - not trying to change your mind, so much as offer a word of caution. Infinite uncapped scaling is dangerous no matter the cost involved.

No, I was talking about Ironclad Charge which gives you more armour per enemy hit with Rhino Charge, armour which sums to Iron Skin's calculation too giving over 1 million health to it if modded properly (or more likely fully moded around it).


True scaling content in the game was designed to make the players want to quit but I feel like the factor that repells us from going for long into endless missions isn't the ever increasing damage or effective health of our enemies, as we've proven to be capable of dooming even level 10000 Stalkers in the past almost bare-handed, but the lack of something greater to obtain if we can get the same by doing 20 minutes over and over again instead of 20 hours.

 

After giving some though to what you've said about Bulk Up, I think I will change it, but it will still be satisfying to use, for everyone, myself included.

So, I looked at a mod I use almost all the time now, Mecha Pulse.
You know what Mecha Pulse does, don't you? 60% more armour per enemy within the AoE of the doggy, which is 30 meters, optimal on Steel Path but not so much outside of it. Not that we need massive amounts of protection outside of it except for special fights such as the Orb Mother and a couple more...
And I thought to myself "Hey, if infinite scaling health and armour is simply dumb op and gamebreaking, why not simply give a flat value, which will still be massive but more appealing and non-gamebreaking?" so I did this:

  • Bulk Up now infuses the stored rubble as an armour % increase, so if you have 1500 Rubble, you have 1500% more armour.
     
  • This armour value will be represented as a buff to the left of your health bar, just like any other buff, and decays at the same rate Rubble does right now after some seconds.
    To compensate, Bulk Up stops the rubble you gather and store from passively decaying. Basically Bulk Up becomes a decaying armour boost that you can refresh making use of your stored rubble, which now won't decay. I feel like this is a win-win for us both! Or is it?*
    *Somehow I feel like you will say that non-decaying rubble should be already a part of his kit without requiring of any augment but welp... We can't have it all in this world, even less when Rubble Heap as an augment exists, that would mean 0 cost for Landslide forever once you reached 1500 rubble, and we wouldn't want a game-breaking thing like that, right?
    True you could say "screw it, I am just using the augment for it pauses the rubble from decaying and I can now spam Landslide" but if Warframe Da'ats were not implemented, that is already 2 slots of your build taken.

     
  • This way we could score really, really high armour values and increase our overall effective health.
     
    • Brutal amounts of defence by casting Bulk Up with max stored rubble and Umbral/Regular Fiber equipped, for "start-chart" play lets say.
       
      • To put an example, lets say you have a full Umbral Atlas Prime, (And the hypothetical case of Augment Da'ats being in the game too so you could slot Rubble Heap + Bulk Up without consuming physical space on the build) and cast Tectonic Bulk Up when you have 1500 rubble stored. That would give you a whooping 10911 armour for a 97.32% damage reduction and give a effective health multiplier of x37,37
         
    • Absolutely insane/Titanic levels of armour on Steel Path if casted after Mecha Pulse buff has been activated.
       
      • You would be required of bringuing a specific type of pet (K9s) and some special mods on it in order to get these results, a bit of a RPG~ish aspect as some would say. Thing which I've been fancying a lot as of lately.
         
      • With Full Umbral, Bulk up, and Mecha Pulse that affected 25 enemies, to put a fairly high number yet not the max it could reach, you would gain 18786 armour (lmao) for a DR of 98.43% (am dying) and finally an EHM of x63,62 (I'M DEAD). Oh wait, there's also Rumblers absorbing part of the game when activated or Adaptation on top of it all (I CANT).
         

Now to fix any possible issues with how these apply, lets go over the thought process:

  1. At first I thought of making Bulk Up be a X% over the final, so if would have been ([(Armour*Armour mods *Mecha Pulse]*Bulk Up), and this would have given ridiculous numbers that I thought were just too much (Easily 175K which could give a 99.83% damage reduction and x589 health multi). That all was without the flat damage reduction of the golems or Adaptation thrown into the formula. So the final formula shall be the one I wrote above and that's it. Not broken, just really strong.
     
  2. Then there was the dilemma of; "What if Mecha Pulse armour buff runs out?" Should it cut the (X%+Y%) boost of it combined with Bulk Up, leaving only the decaying armour value of Bulk Up to work? And I said, no.
    If you activate Bulk Up after Mecha Pulse has triggered, it will retain the % gained from applying both as 1 single instance*, which you can still refresh if you use Tectonics consuming part of that stored rubble.
    *So basically if you had 1500% from BU and 1500% from MP, you would keep the 3000% even if MP boost ran out, though BU would keep decaying at the same rate and only indicating the armour bonus of it. That means you would be loosing more armour at the same rate, so recasting your ability would be important.
     
  3. There was also the problem of "If I cast BU Tectonics while I have a lower % bonus gained from Mecha Pulse, I would get a lower extra value of armour boost" which is an annoying thing I've ran onto when using Mecha Pulse all the time.
    While the proposed fix for this should belong to my future Pets & Companions revisit post (WIP), as it affects this one thread almost directly I will include that proposed change here too:
     
    1. I don't want Mecha Pulse to simply keep adding extra armour % if you happen to kill 2 marked enemies in a row, but to at least refresh your current value unless the new instance proportionates a bigger number. Then it would refresh + use the new number as value to refresh.
       
    2. However, as Mecha Set spreads status over all enemies within its range, I thought of a very interesting iteration with Petrify to help gain rubble massively.
      Basically you would petrify the marked target, kill it, and this would spread petrify to all other enemies.

      If this were combined with the Seismic Pulse augment I designed for Landslide, it would give an amazing Synergy, even more if slapping Rubble Heap on top of it all. That way, the 3 Warframe Da'at slots I proposed would be filled with these three augments and the build would still have space for all the important modding, though the aura and at least 1 mod slot, not the exilus, would be taken by mecha Pulse and Mecha Overdrive. Damn I've created an Atlas build that doesn't even exist.
       
    3. If the value of a new Mecha Pulse instance surpasses the one of the currently sumed to Bulk Up, the new value will substitute the previous one. If it is lower, it will just refresh the duration.
       
    4. This also means you could gain even more armour if you do not cast BU when another Mecha Pulse instance happens. To clarify, you could have your +3000% from BU+MP, and then the aside instance of MP giving you another X%, so going over 4500% armour could be achievable, but only for some seconds (20s if am not mistaken is what Mecha Pulse lasts).
       
    5. Also, the unused stored Rubble would count as even more extra armour.
       
    6. On another notion, this also oversimplifies the calculation for Rumbler's armour and health, so that they are just Atlas² in terms of health.
       

On a side note, I thought of making Bulk Up also give a health bonus while it is active, but this one wouldn't decay until you ran out completely of the ability buff, but it would be +0'5% more health per rubble unit. So like a Fire Elemental Ward, but refreshable.

 

 

That should make it for Bulk Up and Tectonics in general to be in a pretty strong state now, but not simply be game breaking and have stupid high numbers or complicated calculations behind it.

Hopping on to the next one (damn I've been typing and thinking all this for the past 3+ hours, gonna take a break playing WF with the bois and will continue at night).

hace 8 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I'll be speaking on the whole subject, but I picked this specific snippet to quote because I think it highlights my dissonance. You describe Atlas as being a "slow" Warframe (to the extent that anything in Warframe is slow), but you use this argument to defend a system which requires very fast gameplay. If Atlas plays thematically slowly, Rubble decays and he loses his central mechanic. The only way to stay on top of Rubble - especially since you now have abilities which drain it - is to run around like a man possessed punching everything that looks at you funny. This is precisely why I don't enjoy playing Atlas - because I'm always in a rush to punch more people before I run out of Rubble and lose my additional defences. Currently, he shares the same issue with Nidus in that his mechanic only really works in infinite content where enough enemy density is present to build up Rubble faster than it decays. That's not a "slow" Warframe in my book. That's a very fast Warframe for whom everything is ESO. The whole reason I proposed removing Rubble decays was specifically to slow him down, allowing me to actually explore the map or do things other than constantly hammer my 1 key. Or more broadly, to make Atlas more palatable in non-Infinite content.

I'm also really not sure I can accept the "Atlas is not a team Warframe." Like you, I solo most if not all of the time. I don't need Atlas to be any more team-friendly to appeal TO ME. However, I'm not trying to design a Warframe to appeal to just me. It needs to fit within the paradigm of the broader game, else what we end up with is a very, very niche product. Atlas doesn't need to necessarily have team synergy - I'd argue no Warframe needs that. But he does need to not compete with the rest of the team, either. This is the exact same reason nobody likes to team with Limbo outside of very specific circumstances. There's nothing wrong with Limbo himself, but people who play him are disruptive to the rest of the team more often than not. I can't really see a justification of knowing that Atlas suffers on teams and doing nothing about it. All Warframes - even the ones built to appeal to solo players - need compromises in their design to make them function properly on a team.

Then there's also the thematic argument. I'm willing to accept this for Tectonics, but not for Rubble. If we can come up with a good mechanic that doesn't fit the Rubble concept, we can redesign the Rubble concept. Look at Nidus. He gains stacks of "mutation" by simply hitting people with his abilities. There's no real explanation for how that actually happens, but nobody really cares. You hit them with ground spikes, you build up stacks. I'd argue that Nidus has a FAAAR better inherent mechanic than Atlas does. His doesn't decay unless used, he doesn't need to compete with team-mates for last-hits and he doesn't need a two-step process to gather it. Nidus has a plethora of issues all his own, but Mutation isn't one of them. You could easily change Atlas' Rubble mechanic to, say, "Momentum" or even something as simple as "Dominance." The more enemies he kills, the more dominant he becomes. The more abilities he uses, the more enemies he has to kill to become dominant again.

Personally, I feel that if Atlas wants to be a proper Tank (or a Titan), then he needs to compare favourably against the likes of Inaros and Nidus. Inaros has a nearly cost-less inherent resource of Scarab Armour. Yes, it costs ~3000 health to cast, but health is something that Inaros can generate quite easily. Scarab Armour doesn't decay unless used, or unless it absorbs status effects (as I feel that Negation Swarm should be inherent and not an Augment). Nidus I already addressed, but broadly: he has a slow-generating, non-decaying resources which is only used either actively to power otherwise-free abilities or passively should Nidus die. He's a lot more static due to the Field of Floppy Penises (I forget what that ability is called) and the Parasitic Link so I have some proposals to make about him. However, he has a far more "Titan-like" gameplay of slowly building up to great power than Atlas' "rush-to-punch" playstyle.

With all of that said, though, I am still selfishly-motivated. I don't like playing against the clock of a constantly-decaying resource that I actually need. I feel that Atlas would work better if his Rubble drained not over time, but when he used it. In my opinion, resources always work better when they're used up intentionally, than when they decay on their own. You can even foster a similar "gotta' go fast" playstyle by tuning the rate of resource generation vs. the rate of use from abilities. Atlas could still be driven to aggressively always punch people. It just wouldn't be because he's racing the clock, but rather because he'd want to use more of his fun abilities more often - exactly like Nidus does.

But again - that's personal preference. You don't need to change your proposal just to cater to me :)

Well I just said Atlas was "a bit on the slow side" due to his base movement speed being below one, that was all. Then, his Prime changed that so, he's basically as fast as everyone else. Or, everyone else who has average sprint speed, that is.

Now, as I am writing this part at night, after finishing my day and Warframe session, I have gathered some feedback for myself and realized that you are a bit wrong on something.
When playing Atlas, one doesn't need to run around like a maniac to obtain rubble. It is not a race to be at 100% all the time, unless you are playing with randoms, in which case, do you really have the right to complain about not being able to obtain rubble?

I was playing with my Chroma friend today, both of us complain about how our mains deserve reworks worthy of their themes of Dragon and Titan (Maybe I'll do a Chroma Rework in the future, who knows), and we went to Selkie on Steel Path, which is our survival node of prefereance as there reside the strongers Grineers by default, and we always fancy some nice fight.
I carried my Gaze kitgun and my Atlas with his Larva infused, and in under 3/4 of a minute, I already had maxxed out my rubble without using Landslide once.
Needless to say, my friend has a very "blender" gameplay style so he throws himself to kill anything he finds and yet, that didn't disturb me from getting rubble at all. If so, he just killed the petrified enemies giving me the rubble I would have gotten anyways.
Then Acolyte came and in 4 punches he was gone. My friend was like "Wait, you already killed him? The heck you wearing on Atlas?"
I wasn't even using a stat stick, just my War build for corrosive and crit + Primed Bane of Grineer.

The thing is, rubble isn't the problem itself, but instead the enemy density of the game. If we jack up how much rubble we get from killing enemies or enemies killed by allies, I can tell you I would have maxed out my rubble in 20 seconds at max in that node, but in a normal one perhaps it would have taken me a full minute, which honestly, is still an extremely short amount of time.

It was as easy as to use Larva, then Petrify, and shoot with my kitgun, and because my doggy attacks them when they take a bleed proc, I use to get my energy bar filled instantly and can do it continuously and mixing some other elements in between.

So, rubble is actually reasonable fast to obtain, and the problem is not it, but the amount of enemies we face instead. We need to have either a really big amount of them or at very least group them up to obtain a handful of it, and then it decays because there aren't more enemies to petrify, or simply we don't have enough energy to do so.
Right now rubble has no use outside of granting healing, extra armour, and activating Rubble Heap, so even if my rework were to happen, and it is focused for "harder content" where enemy spawn is way better, I think it would still be fine if how much rubble we get remained the same.

Now then, with the changes we've finally bestowed upon Bulk Up, I think you will be satisfied as finally, you wouldn't have rubble decaying and could store it even if you don't plan on using it after maxing out the meter.
Honestly, outside of Steel Path, I don't need rubble to be up all times to stay alive as the build for the frame and the gameplay style is what matter most at the time of surviving a fight, than not just his "special mechanic/resources".

That is why, rubble shall remain untouched, with the exception of the minor change that makes it grant healing and armour at the same time, which translates to obtaining rubble faster as you do not have to be at 100% health for the meter to be fill-able. Again, win-win situation.

hace 8 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

This notion confuses me. Are you suggesting that the only use for Petrify is to generate Rubble? Because if so, then I'd argue that's really bad design. An ability which exists solely to tag enemies for another ability's effect is what I'd consider needless bloat. If I were to run into a system like that, I'd drop the intermediary ability entirely and either make the effect inherent or bake it into another ability. Note that this is precisely what happened to Ember's Accelerant when she was redesigned - it doesn't exist any more, because it was an unnecessary intermediary step which took up an ability slot that could have been used for something else.

I don't think that's the case for Atlas, though. Petrify isn't just a means to Rubble - it's a very powerful hard control ability. It disregards enemy facing, it has a very long base duration and it affects enemies in a massive cone. Almost no other Warframe has a hold this powerful, and certainly not any of the Tank Frames. Sure, Inaros has a few control abilities but his Sand requires enemies to face him and is fairly short-duration while Scarab Swarm allows enemies to fire through it. Frost has a single-target hold and an expensive AoE hold, but both are fairly short-duration. Atlas has an easily-attainable large-scale hold. That's incredibly vaulable, far more so than any interaction it has with his other abilities.

I don't THINK you're suggesting that control abilities have no use, but just in case - hard control is very powerful in Warframe where the player needs to do more than just kill enemies as fast as possible. Despite Tectonics being pretty bad for defence (currently on Live), Petrify makes up a lot of ground because it can lock down large groups of enemies at long range. When designing Warframe abilities, I'm of the opinion that each must be powerful and useful in its own right BEFORE any synergies are considered. Synergy is important, don't get me wrong, but it should only ever enhance an already good ability. Synergy should never be a means of making a bad ability worth using - improving the ability should do that.

Rhino is the perfect example of doing this wrong. His charge is absolutely awful and entirely useless, but equally can't just dump it for a better ability because of Ironclad Charge. I don't need the Charge itself, I need it as a button to push that gives me more Iron Skin. That's bad design, because Charge isn't an ability - it's a placeholder for another ability. Essentially, Iron Skin occupies 2 ability slots. If I were redesigning Rhino, I'd either dump Ironclad Charge or merge it with Iron Skin and then give him a different 1 ability altogether.

In short, Atlas' Petrify is a very strong ability which can easily survive not being required for Rubble. In my estimate, at least.

This notion confuses you because you didn't read the paragraph for what it meant.

The point of it was that if rubble was obtained from simply killing, what would be the point of using Petrify which is the only way to get it as of now.
Path of Statues is ultra wack so don't even bother bringing it up as an argument, please.
A 4 Atlas squad could replace Petrify with this rework as they wouldn't need it at all to obtain rubble, just killing would put them at 100% all the time effortlessly.

So no, this is not about "Petrify's only purpose being obtaining rubble", as I already know it is a good CC but its casting cost disuades the player from doing so, moreover given it has limited range, LoS, and duration. A Banshee walking back and forth with Silence active would do basically the same and on an area.

My point remains, that if killing gave rubble, Petrify wouldn't be needed, and would be replaced by a helminth subsume like Ensnare or Larva instead to group up enemies which also restrict their movement/displacement.

hace 8 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I considered suggesting a petrifying aura around the Rumblers, but ended up not proposing it. If you're worried about the Rumblers Petrifying too much due to their single-target attacks, then an aura like that would petrify substantially more. I'd suggest a model of how much "too much" petrification (petrified enemies per unit of time, petrification uptime, etc.) and going from there. As it stands, we're using very vague terminology :)

Lets say Golems by default have a 7.5 meter radious area of petrification, which has a fall-off factor to it.
So, at melee range, 2-3 meters lets say, this one wouldn't be affected by modding, the petrify has 100% effectiveness so it takes 4 full seconds to fully convert anyone at that range.
Now, at the 7'5 meters mark, this effect drops to 25% effectiveness rate, so it would take 20 seconds to fully petrify a target, but they do it slowly, so think about is as a version of Gloom that slows down the longer they stay on it until fully petrified.

Because Golems are 2 and they always get up close to their adversaries noses, it would be common they petrify a single target, smash it to bits now that their damage is 💪🏼, and then proceed on to the next one. This would mean they can continuously petrify targets for you as long as you keep them alive, or the target isn't extremely resilent.

That should be the perfect middle ground between attacks that petrify, and a non-game breaking petrify given they now last forever or til you decide it's their time to rest. Also, because Rumblers do take part of the rubble you store to reinforce them, I thought it would be nice if they dropped 150 rubble each on death, as you use half of your rubble meter to build them, but this way even if you spam-cast Rumblers, you won't get free limitless rubble.

What you create is returned to you in the purest of forms.

 

 

That should do it for this instance of small adjustements.
Every reply we get closer to a balance point to finally agree on a final product, though some of our ideals might collide still.

Off to sleep I go now, I'll see you when I see you. (_  _)*zzZ*

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12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Hey come on man you're skipping on the part where said that I'd let you hold Tectonics without requiring to equip Tectonic Fracture to create a rock blob around you with an opening towards the back-end of it depending on how long you held the ability button to raise it :P

Oh, no. I'm aware. I think I reference that somewhere along the way. Like I said, though - my disagreement here is ideological. I simply don't see the benefit of "a wall" in Warframe. The only situation where I feel that static fortifications are even worth bothering with are defence objectives, and those situations only really benefit from circular and spherical abilities. Semi-circular abilities or multiple walls can work to an extent, but to me it just feels like missing the point. I don't want to get into the "why" of it again since we've established you don't agree with my ideology here and the point isn't to nag you into changing your mind. This is just where I stand, personally.

Incidentally, what circumstances do you envision where a wall like that would be worth using? Just for my own curiosity, this isn't a trap question. That's really my biggest hang-up. I can't really think of when I'd have use for something like that at all. This was always my biggest issue with Tectonics on Live, as well. It doesn't matter how tough the wall is (and the Live version is already pretty tough), I simply can't find a use for it on any mission type. I could grab the "multiple walls" Augment, but that would be throwing good mod capacity after bad abilities. How do you envision using it?

 

12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

And I thought to myself "Hey, if infinite scaling health and armour is simply dumb op and gamebreaking, why not simply give a flat value, which will still be massive but more appealing and non-gamebreaking?" so I did this:

Just as an aside - the issue I had with your original proposal wasn't "scaling" but rather "stacking." You'll note that with both of the examples you gave - Ironclad Charge and Mecha Pulse - their effects don't stack with themselves. Iron Skin needs to fully deplete before it can be recast and Mecha Pulse depends on your pet marking targets, which has a cooldown. I guess Mecha Pulse can be slightly overlapped since max duration is 20 seconds and minimum cooldown is 15, but you can't really stack it properly. I may have misread how your original Bulk Up worked, but it sounded like every activation stacked permanent EHP bonuses. That's what concerned me.

 

12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

*Somehow I feel like you will say that non-decaying rubble should be already a part of his kit without requiring of any augment but welp... We can't have it all in this world, even less when Rubble Heap as an augment exists, that would mean 0 cost for Landslide forever once you reached 1500 rubble, and we wouldn't want a game-breaking thing like that, right?

Not quite. I thought so while reading the initial proposal, but that's not what the Augment actually does. It DOES stop Rubble from decaying, but it replaces it with a decaying armour buff, so you're really just shifting my complaint sideways to another stat. Either way, I wasn't going to say anything :) Like I said - my goal here isn't to browbeat you into changing your mind, so banging on about the same issues doesn't really help. Don't worry about placating me.

With that said, I do like this iteration of Bulk Up better because it avoids the infinite stacking issue of the previous one. Sure, you could get some absurd levels of armour in the same way you can with Iron Skin (which I'm generally not a fan of), but it's well within precedent of what the game already does. I don't feel the need to press the point further, this is I think more than close enough to what I'd be willing to accept. We can niggle about specific stat values, but I don't think there's merit in it. I'm fine with the basic concept of an ability that gives you bonus temporary armour based on your Rubble.

Just as a quick follow-up note, though - I'd recommend looking at armour in terms of bonus EHP, rather than just damage resistance percentage. Warframe's armour system is clever, in that EHP as a function of resistance has increasing returns while resistance as a function of armour has diminishing returns, meaning EHP as a function of armour has linear returns. I like to use the function EHP = HP + HP*(Armour/300). That's not a correction, just a proposal as it also incorporates your modified health values.

 

12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

There was also the problem of "If I cast BU Tectonics while I have a lower % bonus gained from Mecha Pulse, I would get a lower extra value of armour boost" which is an annoying thing I've ran onto when using Mecha Pulse all the time.
While the proposed fix for this should belong to my future Pets & Companions revisit post (WIP), as it affects this one thread almost directly I will include that proposed change here too:

Considering you're making ostensibly Atlas' version of Iron Skin (hence why I've been calling it Stone Skin), then your solution makes sense as it's ostensibly the same. The Bulk Up armour bonus is fixed at the time of casting and doesn't change if Atlas' armour changes thereafter. That means you get less benefit if you cast it with unusually low armour and more benefit if you cast it with unusually high armour. Like I said before - I'm not really a fan of this approach as it creates very strange builds, but it's well within precedent with the rest of the game so I can't really argue against it. You're entirely consistent with how the rest of the game works, so that should shield you from criticism on this topic moving forward - including my own :)

Just as a passing thought, though - I'd stick with either bonus armour OR bonus health, but not both. The bonus EHP gained from armour is a multiple of total health and armour, so boosting both is just "double-dipping." If you want to increase EHP, pick one or the other but don't mess with both. Atlas' thing is "armour," so I'd say stick with armour.

 

12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

The thing is, rubble isn't the problem itself, but instead the enemy density of the game. If we jack up how much rubble we get from killing enemies or enemies killed by allies, I can tell you I would have maxed out my rubble in 20 seconds at max in that node, but in a normal one perhaps it would have taken me a full minute, which honestly, is still an extremely short amount of time.

With the way you have your abilities set up, sure. My counter-proposal had a LOT more use for Rubble, meaning that it Atlas would be encouraged to continue dumping it over and over again. Building up to max Rubble in 20 seconds wouldn't be an issue if Atlas could repeatedly dump all 1500 of it into abilities repeatedly. My example here would be Ember's Immolation. Ember is encouraged to build it up high for damage resistance, but not TOO high else she starts burning energy. The general gameplay loop, then, is to build up Immolation, then dump it, then build it all over again. I've already used Inaros as an example, as well. His Scarab Armour builds up in ~10 seconds, but he's encouraged to dump it in increments of 25% for ability use, as well as lose 3% for every status effect resisted (with Negation Swarm). While Scarab Armour contributes only I think double base armour (so an extra 225) vs. Rubble which contributes 1500, I feel they're comparable.

That's not the design you're after, however. You're sticking closer to current Live designs, which is fine. As long as you're happy with what you're proposing, then feel free to disregard. Again - I'm not trying to change your mind.

 

12 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

This notion confuses you because you didn't read the paragraph for what it meant. The point of it was that if rubble was obtained from simply killing, what would be the point of using Petrify which is the only way to get it as of now. So no, this is not about "Petrify's only purpose being obtaining rubble", as I already know it is a good CC but its casting cost disuades the player from doing so, moreover given it has limited range, LoS, and duration. My point remains, that if killing gave rubble, Petrify wouldn't be needed, and would be replaced by a helminth subsume like Ensnare or Larva instead to group up enemies which also restrict their movement/displacement.

Slightly edited the above quote down to what I consider are the main points. I'd ask that you give me a bit of credit here. I'm arguing in good faith and doing my best to follow, but I still can't. Here, you acknowledge that Petrify is a good control ability, yet still ask what the point of using it would be. I don't really know how to answer that without it coming across like sarcasm, but: "The point of Petrify is to be a good control ability. It doesn't need to be anything more." I simply don't see a world where I'd even consider dropping Petrify before I dropped Tectonics. Control is a very valuable tool on its own merit, even if it did literally nothing else. I genuinely don't know why you feel that Petrify needs to be mandatory for Atlas in order for it to be worth using.

Yes, Petrify is too expensive, this I agree with. It can be made less expensive without much issue. There's no rule in Warframe design which says that abilities need to cost 25/50/75/100 if they're in slot 1/2/3/4. Many Warframes follow this framework, to be sure, but many don't. Just from the Warframes I've brought up - Inaros' Scarab Armour costs no energy and Scarab Swarm costs only 25 Energy. Ember's Inferno costs no energy to cast, but drains 10 energy per enemy affected. I could go on, but my point is this - you can give Atlas' abilities any energy cost you want, including 25 per cast for Petrify even if it's in ability slot 2. Hell, Nidus himself burns 40 energy for his 1 ability and 25 for his 2 ability, and those are pretty comparable to Atlas' 1 and 2 in your design. 1 is an ability attack, 2 is control.

If you look at Petrify and think to yourself "I wouldn't use this ability if I didn't HAVE to in order to power a completely different ability," then that should tell you that Petrify itself needs to be improved. Nobody should feel pressured to use a bad ability just for the sake of synergy, and no Warframe should ever put people in that position. It seems I have a much higher opinion of Petrify than you do, which is fair enough. However, if you couldn't justify keeping Petrify but for Rubble, I'd recommend looking into ways of improving Petrify's cost/value proposition. Rubble aside, it sounds to me like Petrify needs buffs.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Lets say Golems by default have a 7.5 meter radious area of petrification, which has a fall-off factor to it. So, at melee range, 2-3 meters lets say, this one wouldn't be affected by modding, the petrify has 100% effectiveness so it takes 4 full seconds to fully convert anyone at that range. Now, at the 7'5 meters mark, this effect drops to 25% effectiveness rate, so it would take 20 seconds to fully petrify a target, but they do it slowly, so think about is as a version of Gloom that slows down the longer they stay on it until fully petrified. Because Golems are 2 and they always get up close to their adversaries noses, it would be common they petrify a single target, smash it to bits now that their damage is 💪🏼, and then proceed on to the next one. This would mean they can continuously petrify targets for you as long as you keep them alive, or the target isn't extremely resilent.

I'm going to give a few more stats to what you just said and make some assumptions. Let's say that Rumblers have an aura which applies "percentage petrification" per second. You want a single Rumbler to petrify an enemy at up to 3 meters in 4 seconds, so that's 0.25 per second. You want this effect to drop to 20 seconds at 7.5 meters, so that's 0.05 per second. I'm going to assume for this to scale linearly the same way damage falloff does. You're cautious about petrifying enemies too quickly so I'll also assume you don't mean for this effect to stack when two Rumblers are within range of the same target. Although... if that's the case, then we need to ensure the effect from the one who's closest would take precedence.

The reason I ask is because I wanted to see if the same metrics could be replicated by modifying attacks. Note that I'm not saying you SHOULD do this, so much as I merely want to know if you COULD. There are two approaches here - guaranteed "percentage petrification" per attack, or chance to proc full petrification per attack. Let's do both.

I don't can't find stats for how fast Rumblers attack, so I'm going to pull a number out of my ass for the sake of argument and roll with it. Let's say they punch once every 2 seconds. To remain consistent with the aura you've proposed, then a Rumbler would need to apply 0.5 "percentage petrification" per attack or have 50% chance to petrify per attack. In the former case, they'd petrify a target every 2 attacks (so every 4 seconds) and in the latter they'd petrify a target ON AVERAGE every 2 attacks (or every 4 seconds).

Now let's say Rumblers throw a boulder once every four attacks - 3 punches, then boulder. 1 out of 4 attacks at 2 seconds per attack is 1 boulder every 8 seconds. If we want the boulder to petrify consistent with your larger radius, then it would need to apply 0.4 "percentage petrification" per attack or have a 12.5% chance to petrify per boulder. To avoid complicating melee probability, we can just assume that Rumblers will only use their "throw stone" attack when they aren't already in range to use one of their melee attacks, so those can stay the same.

A note on the alternatives here, though. Your proposal for a petrification aura is a multi-target effect, meaning that the Rumblers would entirely petrify all enemies in melee range with them in 4 seconds and all enemies "nearby" in 20. My counter-proposal only affects the Rumbler target making it single-target, but it does allow for the petrification effect to stack (mainly because there's no good way to prevent it). That way, two Rumblers would be able to petrify individual targets faster if they gang up on them, but not petrify in an AoE in my proposal, whereas they'd passively petrify in an AoE in your proposal, but would be less effective against a single target.

Again, I'm not saying "change it" - the aura proposal is perfectly serviceable and I've no real criticism of it. The only reason I didn't propose it myself is I didn't think you'd agree :) In this case, I just wanted to try and demonstrate that there are options. Honestly, the Aura option is probably the stronger.

 

Like I said - don't feel compelled to make adjustments just because I keep arguing the points. If you're happy with the proposals then stick with them. I just don't understand some of them and don't agree on others, but it's not my proposal.

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hace 45 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Like I said - don't feel compelled to make adjustments just because I keep arguing the points.
If you're happy with the proposals then stick with them.
I just don't understand some of them and don't agree on others, but it's not my proposal.

You're the only person in this thread whose continuous feedback critisizing my design has helped me improve and balance it over the span of these past days, so don't worry about me being happy, I am already happy (more or less) with the current state of Atlas in game, but I know for a fact he could be much more if a proper touch-up happened, and happy because someone is willing to spend some of his time thinking alongside another mind on how to make things better for the rest of the playerbase. Now, lets go over there rest:

hace 49 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Like I said, though - my disagreement here is ideological. I simply don't see the benefit of "a wall" in Warframe.
The only situation where I feel that static fortifications are even worth bothering with are defence objectives, and those situations only really benefit from circular and spherical abilities. Semi-circular abilities or multiple walls can work to an extent, but to me it just feels like missing the point.

I don't want to get into the "why" of it again since we've established you don't agree with my ideology here and the point isn't to nag you into changing your mind. This is just where I stand, personally.

Incidentally, what circumstances do you envision where a wall like that would be worth using? Just for my own curiosity, this isn't a trap question.
That's really my biggest hang-up. I can't really think of when I'd have use for something like that at all.

This was always my biggest issue with Tectonics on Live, as well. It doesn't matter how tough the wall is (and the Live version is already pretty tough), I simply can't find a use for it on any mission type. I could grab the "multiple walls" Augment, but that would be throwing good mod capacity after bad abilities. How do you envision using it?

In all honesty, Bulkwrath as it stands rigth now is probably the worst defense-oriented ability, but it has some stupid and fun uses. I personally do not think it is useful in any particular situation as a radial defence like you've mentioned is straight up better, but Tectonics has a little neat thing which isn't actually bad, and only if Warframe's AI of enemies were smarter, it could allow it to act as a source of CC too.

Tectonics aren't seen as a threat by enemies sometimes, so if you stand behind them, you're invisible! Atlas happened to be one of my go-to Kuva Litch hunters when using Zenith and Tectonics for the Litches do not realize or understand they are being shot through it, leading to easy peasy litch squeezy. However, what I wish Tectonics did was disuade enemies from attacking it, and force them to try find another way through to their objectives, unless this were the only way to get to it.

With my rework proposal for Tectonics, both base and augment wise, I allow that tiny pebble wall to either be something worth calling a wall, or a bowl of rock that covers you and your allies, fixing this way the issues it carries by default of covering just one side, and what a "side"... Now that I'm talking about it, the rock bowl generated by holding cast for Tectonics shouldn't be able to turn into a boulder anymore, just replaced.

So, to be fair I cannot defend Tectonics (that sounds kinda dumb ',:| ) for they lack everything as a defensive ability right now, but if my rework were to happen and AI wasn't so dumb, it would be a defence + CC as it could cover and redirect enemy pathfinding. That would be the only example, besides having all enemies in front of you deploying it like a way wider Volt shield, where Tectonics would be rendered useful.

It's no use for me to try and overthink how to defend the undefendable (as of now) as much as I want to convert it into something likeable (in the future) :T

hace 1 hora, Steel_Rook dijo:

Just as an aside - the issue I had with your original proposal wasn't "scaling" but rather "stacking." You'll note that with both of the examples you gave - Ironclad Charge and Mecha Pulse - their effects don't stack with themselves. Iron Skin needs to fully deplete before it can be recast and Mecha Pulse depends on your pet marking targets, which has a cooldown. I guess Mecha Pulse can be slightly overlapped since max duration is 20 seconds and minimum cooldown is 15, but you can't really stack it properly. I may have misread how your original Bulk Up worked, but it sounded like every activation stacked permanent EHP bonuses. That's what concerned me.

Not quite. I thought so while reading the initial proposal, but that's not what the Augment actually does. It DOES stop Rubble from decaying, but it replaces it with a decaying armour buff, so you're really just shifting my complaint sideways to another stat. Either way, I wasn't going to say anything :) Like I said - my goal here isn't to browbeat you into changing your mind, so banging on about the same issues doesn't really help. Don't worry about placating me.

With that said, I do like this iteration of Bulk Up better because it avoids the infinite stacking issue of the previous one. Sure, you could get some absurd levels of armour in the same way you can with Iron Skin (which I'm generally not a fan of), but it's well within precedent of what the game already does. I don't feel the need to press the point further, this is I think more than close enough to what I'd be willing to accept. We can niggle about specific stat values, but I don't think there's merit in it. I'm fine with the basic concept of an ability that gives you bonus temporary armour based on your Rubble.

Just as a quick follow-up note, though - I'd recommend looking at armour in terms of bonus EHP, rather than just damage resistance percentage. Warframe's armour system is clever, in that EHP as a function of resistance has increasing returns while resistance as a function of armour has diminishing returns, meaning EHP as a function of armour has linear returns. I like to use the function EHP = HP + HP*(Armour/300). That's not a correction, just a proposal as it also incorporates your modified health values.

Considering you're making ostensibly Atlas' version of Iron Skin (hence why I've been calling it Stone Skin), then your solution makes sense as it's ostensibly the same. The Bulk Up armour bonus is fixed at the time of casting and doesn't change if Atlas' armour changes thereafter. That means you get less benefit if you cast it with unusually low armour and more benefit if you cast it with unusually high armour. Like I said before - I'm not really a fan of this approach as it creates very strange builds, but it's well within precedent with the rest of the game so I can't really argue against it. You're entirely consistent with how the rest of the game works, so that should shield you from criticism on this topic moving forward - including my own :)

Just as a passing thought, though - I'd stick with either bonus armour OR bonus health, but not both. The bonus EHP gained from armour is a multiple of total health and armour, so boosting both is just "double-dipping." If you want to increase EHP, pick one or the other but don't mess with both. Atlas' thing is "armour," so I'd say stick with armour.

Yeah, the stacking values would be exponentially scaling at a pretty brute rate even if the progression were slow 😥
That was the very reason why I decided to change it to something that could still give a great boost, but wasn't broken, besides it is now way faster!

Regarding Ironclad charge - this going a bit off topic - Since Mecha Pulse increases your final armour value, wouldn't that mean using both together would work best for Iron Skin?

And yes, you had read right the original Bulk Up concept, but once we are done with this polishing phase, I shall change the original post and edit the augments and images to reflect these changes aswell.

 

About non-decaying rubble only when using Bulk Up, I think it's the fairest point for us both as I don't really think it is necessary to have non-decaying rubble, but you would fancy it being this way, so it might work as well ( ·3·)👍🏼
Though honestly, this is also carries an inconvenience, because we need to take into account this is an augment, and if Da'ats/Augment slots from my other post don't happen to be accepted, we would need to sacrifice 1 slot. (´・ω・`)

Thought, I think we are okay with making a bit of a sacrifice every now and then for some extras.

 

I'm not a fan of Iron Skin either but this augment is more consistent that just "A layer of health over your actual health" imo.
We have stronk armour buff but we would require of interesting and different setups to squeeze the best out of it, or use it as it is to get also good results but not as exxagerated. I think it is a perfect middle ground, as (as per usual) I am forgetting that with the rework Atlas would have more HP and armour (thought I haven't stated any values I think?) so the overall armour would actually be higher that what I have calculated. (Way higher now that I'm doing some math, oh boy this would be wonderful).

Also you're right (as per usual), I didn't calculate the EHP using the right formula, lemme try using a full Umbral Atlas Prime as an example though he has less hp and armour that what my proposed rework would have with those same mods...

Right, calculations done, the current EHP of a full umbral Atlas with 0 rubble is around 7716, so if we added Bulk Up to this formula, without a possible Mecha Pulse proc (lets image we are running a Vulpaphyla instead), the EHP would go up to 69450, wow, that is quite an upgrade (And also extremly close to a very particular meme number, talk about the odds...). And this is all without Rumblers' damage reduction or Adaptation...

So yeah, that's it, I don't think I need to push this augment further, you're right, lets forget about adding more HP when applying Bulk Up since we are cranking up Atlas' base one with the rework, we would be going plus ultra if we did that, and I would like to be tanky but not just afk levels of tanky.

Another problem solved you see?
It's not just about changing my mind or that I am happy with the design but about making the right things for one might have not seen the problem at first. (ノω<。)

hace 1 hora, Steel_Rook dijo:

I'd ask that you give me a bit of credit here. I'm arguing in good faith and doing my best to follow, but I still can't.
Here, you acknowledge that Petrify is a good control ability, yet still ask what the point of using it would be. I don't really know how to answer that without it coming across like sarcasm, but: "The point of Petrify is to be a good control ability. It doesn't need to be anything more." I simply don't see a world where I'd even consider dropping Petrify before I dropped Tectonics. Control is a very valuable tool on its own merit, even if it did literally nothing else. I genuinely don't know why you feel that Petrify needs to be mandatory for Atlas in order for it to be worth using.

Yes, Petrify is too expensive, this I agree with. It can be made less expensive without much issue. There's no rule in Warframe design which says that abilities need to cost 25/50/75/100 if they're in slot 1/2/3/4.

If you look at Petrify and think to yourself "I wouldn't use this ability if I didn't HAVE to in order to power a completely different ability," then that should tell you that Petrify itself needs to be improved. Nobody should feel pressured to use a bad ability just for the sake of synergy, and no Warframe should ever put people in that position. It seems I have a much higher opinion of Petrify than you do, which is fair enough. However, if you couldn't justify keeping Petrify but for Rubble, I'd recommend looking into ways of improving Petrify's cost/value proposition. Rubble aside, it sounds to me like Petrify needs buffs.

Like I said, I can't blame you, we're having such an extensive debate I think we should comprehend if we misunderstood something from eachother's posts every now and then.

I wouldn't consider dropping Petrify over Tectonics either but once again; if we obtained rubble from simply killing this ability's main attraction being to generate rubble would be ignored and substitued for another CC ability like Ensnare or Larva which don't have the LoS impediments and also restric movement from enemies. Not sure if Harrow's subsume is his first but that would do what Petrify does with the plus of regen shields, although since Atlas Prime with this rework wouldn't have shields, it would be useless. Not for regular Atlas though.

Regarding how would I tackle the current issues with Petrify, I did in the main post of the thread if am not mistaken, I said I would change it from his third to his second and reduce the ability casting cost to 50, which should be good enough of a change so that it doesn't become too cheap and spammable as a CC source but still rbe eliable for what it is intended which is gain the rubble for the other 2 abilities and his passive.

Another thing was allowing the conic LoS to be affected by range mods to extend its potential further which not only means getting more rubble but also stopping more enemies from damaging you, so technically more survivability too. Perhaps we could lower its cost juuust a bit moreso it becomes even more reliable to CC and keep getting rubble endlessly by downing the enegy cost to as low as 40 at base. Almost half of what it currently takes...

One final touch, we could do something else to Petrify (And just Petrify, not abilities that could petrify like the Rumblers) that perhaps would satisfy you rubbleness needs.

What if Power strength affected the rubble drop chance, which is forcefully 100% eveni f you have less than 100% power strength, but goes up if you build for some of it? That way even if teammates killed enemies, you would still get a fair amount of rubble.

hace 2 horas, Steel_Rook dijo:

I'm going to give a few more stats to what you just said and make some assumptions.

Let's say that Rumblers have an aura which applies "percentage petrification" per second. You want a single Rumbler to petrify an enemy at up to 3 meters in 4 seconds, so that's 0.25 per second. You want this effect to drop to 20 seconds at 7.5 meters, so that's 0.05 per second. I'm going to assume for this to scale linearly the same way damage falloff does. You're cautious about petrifying enemies too quickly so I'll also assume you don't mean for this effect to stack when two Rumblers are within range of the same target. Although... if that's the case, then we need to ensure the effect from the one who's closest would take precedence.

The reason I ask is because I wanted to see if the same metrics could be replicated by modifying attacks. Note that I'm not saying you SHOULD do this, so much as I merely want to know if you COULD. There are two approaches here - guaranteed "percentage petrification" per attack, or chance to proc full petrification per attack. Let's do both.

I can't find stats for how fast Rumblers attack, so I'm going to pull a number out of my ass for the sake of argument and roll with it. Let's say they punch once every 2 seconds. To remain consistent with the aura you've proposed, then a Rumbler would need to apply 0.5 "percentage petrification" per attack or have 50% chance to petrify per attack. In the former case, they'd petrify a target every 2 attacks (so every 4 seconds) and in the latter they'd petrify a target ON AVERAGE every 2 attacks (or every 4 seconds).

Now let's say Rumblers throw a boulder once every four attacks - 3 punches, then boulder. 1 out of 4 attacks at 2 seconds per attack is 1 boulder every 8 seconds. If we want the boulder to petrify consistent with your larger radius, then it would need to apply 0.4 "percentage petrification" per attack or have a 12.5% chance to petrify per boulder. To avoid complicating melee probability, we can just assume that Rumblers will only use their "throw stone" attack when they aren't already in range to use one of their melee attacks, so those can stay the same.

A note on the alternatives here, though. Your proposal for a petrification aura is a multi-target effect, meaning that the Rumblers would entirely petrify all enemies in melee range with them in 4 seconds and all enemies "nearby" in 20. My counter-proposal only affects the Rumbler target making it single-target, but it does allow for the petrification effect to stack (mainly because there's no good way to prevent it). That way, two Rumblers would be able to petrify individual targets faster if they gang up on them, but not petrify in an AoE in my proposal, whereas they'd passively petrify in an AoE in your proposal, but would be less effective against a single target.

Again, I'm not saying "change it" - the aura proposal is perfectly serviceable and I've no real criticism of it. The only reason I didn't propose it myself is I didn't think you'd agree :) In this case, I just wanted to try and demonstrate that there are options. Honestly, the Aura option is probably the stronger.

Indeed, I wouldn't like the effect to stack if two Rumblers were close to the same target (if*), moreover if they now have power to maul things within seconds because of their stats being tied to melee mods, as this could lead to them beating the crap out of everything they petrify rather fast and keep on going on a killing spree almost as fast or more than you.

[*IF]The number pulled out of your buttocks ins't far from reality to be fair, Rumblers do attack every 1.8~ish seconds but perhaps we can combine both of our suggestions into one, once again. Rumbler's ranged attacks could apply a 0'5 petrifcation effect while their attacks could give 0'2, and if a target were petrified, they would focus on killing him first before skipping on to the next one, like Hunter IDK-what which does this for pets but with the bleed procs.
If there were ot be two targets petrified from the start, golems should focus on the one each has closer, and if it happens to be the same, so be it, they would go on to the next one and continue the labour as efficiently.

I personally prefer to apply a % of slowdown per hit over having a chance to apply a full petrification per hit.

Honestly for this one case we got plenty of way to do it but I will go for "Hits give petrify% and Rumblers have a slowdown aura".

This last paragraph is a matter of personal taste so personally I wouldn't mind it if the final version were altered to be either your suggestions or mines.

 

Now, I am hungry so time for a snack and see you later once again (ง •_•)ง

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

It's no use for me to try and overthink how to defend the undefendable (as of now) as much as I want to convert it into something likeable (in the future) :T

Fair enough. I think we've reached an impasse in regards to Tectonics and discussing it further doesn't seem to be yielding any worthwhile results. I'd say go with your own design and best of luck :) I personally want to scrap the ability and replace it with something quite different which isn't in the cards. As such, moving on...

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Regarding Ironclad charge - this going a bit off topic - Since Mecha Pulse increases your final armour value, wouldn't that mean using both together would work best for Iron Skin?

If you're talking about Iron Skin itself, then yes - of course. As far as I'm aware, both Ironclad Charge and Mecha Pulse are additive with other armour buffs and work off of base armour so the order in which they're triggered shouldn't matter for the underlying math. That's what I don't like about Rhino - so much of his maximisation requires on triggering a lot of short-duration armour buffs simultaneously, not because you intend to keep the armour but just as a "stat stick by another name" so Iron Skin spawns with a higher number. There's also Arcane Tanker, among a few others.

If you're talking about Atlas' Bulk Up / Stone Skin, I was under the impression that you would be using an approach similar to Iron Skin. That is to say, the bonus armour amount is based on Atlas' armour when it's initially cast but doesn't change if Atlas' armour changes subsequently. There aren't a lot of "clean" ways to do it any other way in the first place. In that case, the same applies - using all sources of bonus temporary armour together at the time of casting Augmented Tectonics would be the most optimal way to use that, as it would give you the largest number for bonus armour.

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

About non-decaying rubble only when using Bulk Up, I think it's the fairest point for us both as I don't really think it is necessary to have non-decaying rubble, but you would fancy it being this way, so it might work as well ( ·3·)👍🏼
Though honestly, this is also carries an inconvenience, because we need to take into account this is an augment, and if Da'ats/Augment slots from my other post don't happen to be accepted, we would need to sacrifice 1 slot. (´・ω・`)

I don't intend to push the Rubble subject further, so that's fine as far as compromises go. Like I said - you're moving the "decaying stat" issue to another stat so the situation remains similar. That fits your intended design, so go with that.

And yes, I did consider the issue of an Augment being ostensibly a whole other ability, but that didn't seem worth getting into. It's a much broader topic with a lot of game-wide design implications that I don't think we're going to resolve in this thread. That and I didn't want to push your design even farther off its origin :) Suffice it to say that while your Bulk Up augment is quite extreme as far those go, it's not entirely unprecedented. While not quite as extreme, Valkyr's Mania Augment (hope I got the name right this time) still alters her Mania to a significant enough degree to give you sufficient precedent.

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Right, calculations done, the current EHP of a full umbral Atlas with 0 rubble is around 7716, so if we added Bulk Up to this formula, without a possible Mecha Pulse proc (lets image we are running a Vulpaphyla instead), the EHP would go up to 69450, wow, that is quite an upgrade (And also extremly close to a very particular meme number, talk about the odds...). And this is all without Rumblers' damage reduction or Adaptation...

That doesn't sound so extreme, really. Let me give you a bit of context. I just checked my Inaros Prime. He's sitting on 8510 raw health + 658 armour + Scarab Armour (another 225). I'm going to ignore Arcanes for the time being since Atlas can use the same combo of Guardian + Grace that I am. That's 8510 + 8510*(883/300) ~ 33 557.76 EHP. Seems like you came up with nearly double that. That's not too surprising given how much armour Atlas has, though I'm not sure what values you're using for health, base armour and Bulk Up. Sticking to numbers I have - even accounting for Arcane Guardian, the best I can get for Inaros is ~59 087.77. Although as a "regenerating" tank, he doesn't survive so much on raw EHP but also on regen, which where Arcane Grace is really overpowered. I'd be curious how much Arcane Guardian would help your Atlas, given that you're working with quite a bit less health.

I say less health, but your OP seems to suggest giving Atlas Prime 525 health (which is JUUUST shy of Inaros Prime at 575) and 800 armour. That's... a lot. I don't know if you want to get into number-crunching, but a 525-health, 800-armour Atlas should have a lot more than 7000-8000 EHP even with a basic build. My own Atlas Prime has 1838 health and 997 armour, for a total EHP of 1838 + 1838*(997/300) ~ 7 946.29. And mind you - mine's not actually Full Umbral - I didn't use any Umbral Mods at all, whereas I very much did on Inaros.

Number-crunching is actually one area where I might be able to help, since it's technically within my field of expertise :) My Bachelor's is in applied mathematics - has to count for something, I figure. Don't worry about making up stats if you don't have anything planned, but that might be fun.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

I wouldn't consider dropping Petrify over Tectonics either but once again; if we obtained rubble from simply killing this ability's main attraction being to generate rubble would be ignored and substitued for another CC ability like Ensnare or Larva which don't have the LoS impediments and also restric movement from enemies. Not sure if Harrow's subsume is his first but that would do what Petrify does with the plus of regen shields, although since Atlas Prime with this rework wouldn't have shields, it would be useless. Not for regular Atlas though.

Ah, I see. So your concern is less about the ability being bad for control and more about it not being as good as other control? Hmm... Not sure I agree, but let's run with it for now. You mentioned Ensnare, Larva and Condemn. Both Larva and Condemn have fairly short base durations - 7s and 6s, respectively. Condemn does recover shields, but your version of Atlas doesn't have shields so I don't feel that's a sufficient benefit. Larva has pretty good utility, but it's not really much of a control ability - it's very short and has a lot of failure conditions. Ensnare does have a long-ish duration, but that's a single-target hold. It can propagate to other targets, but every step of propagation loses 25% duration. Atlas, meanwhile, has a 20-second hard hold which - I just found out - also drops enemy elemental resistances by 50% additive across the board.

I don't remember all the Warframe abilities by heart, so if you can think of other contenders, post them and we can look at them, too. The reason I ask is to establish a baseline - what should we expect of "a really good hold" and what can we do to improve Petrify in that direction independent of any synergies?

First things first, I'd go one step beyond what you proposed and drop its cost to 25 energy. Condemn's 25, Larva's 25 (despite being a 2 ability) and Ensnare is 50 though that's likely more for the 100% bonus damage synergy with Whipclaw and Venari. I'd say dropping the cost is easily justified. I'd also argue that giving the hold a bit more duration as a means of setting it apart wouldn't hurt. Boosting Rank 4 duration to 25 should do wonders, especially if you build for ability duration. I don't know about making it a one-handed action, but I wouldn't be opposed to speeding up its animation. Basically, I want Atlas to work as a pretty solid hard CC Warframe, not just a guy who punches things, and making sure Petrify is worth using is fairly important for that.

And yes, I know you proposed 40 energy as a compromise, but this is one of those "you can go bigger" moments, I think :) The original Petrify is just WAAAY too expensive for what it does, so I'm not worried about cutting its cost down to a third and also increasing its other stats. If it becomes spammable, then let it be spammable. If Inaros can spam Dessication in a 15 meter cone in front of him with a much wider arc for 25 energy, Atlas should, as well.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Another thing was allowing the conic LoS to be affected by range mods to extend its potential further which not only means getting more rubble but also stopping more enemies from damaging you, so technically more survivability too. Perhaps we could lower its cost juuust a bit moreso it becomes even more reliable to CC and keep getting rubble endlessly by downing the enegy cost to as low as 40 at base. Almost half of what it currently takes...

As far as I can tell, cone range is already affected by ability range. Are you referring to cone angle? Allowing Atlas to affect both would be a bit much, I think. The reason for this is that cones gain drastically increasing returns in term of coverage the longer they are, because they grow wider towards the far side. Allowing both might make the area a bit too massive. I'm curious about doing the opposite - increasing base cone range to 20 meters. That would allow Atlas to get a large number of people if he has sufficient distance from them without requiring a wider cone - the cone would widen just from the increased range.

I got a little lazy and used an online arc calculator because it's past midnight, but... With an angle of 60 degrees and a radius of 15 meters, the ability covers 117.81m^2. Boosting that radius by just 5 meters gives you 209.44m%2 - nearly double. I think it's a neat way to get around increasing cone width, though that does make the ability a bit more complex to use since you'd want to use it at close to max range.

Alternately, you could drop the range (or keep it at 15m) and increase angle a little bit, say to 75 or 90 degrees. That would give you a lot more coverage, as well. I don't know that it's a good idea to make both cone range and cone angle affected by range mods since - again - you're kind of compounding the effect. One or the other should work sufficiently well, and you can always just boost the stats a little.

 

5 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

[*IF]The number pulled out of your buttocks ins't far from reality to be fair, Rumblers do attack every 1.8~ish seconds but perhaps we can combine both of our suggestions into one, once again. Rumbler's ranged attacks could apply a 0'5 petrifcation effect while their attacks could give 0'2, and if a target were petrified, they would focus on killing him first before skipping on to the next one, like Hunter IDK-what which does this for pets but with the bleed procs.
If there were ot be two targets petrified from the start, golems should focus on the one each has closer, and if it happens to be the same, so be it, they would go on to the next one and continue the labour as efficiently.

To be fair, that wasn't a COMPLETE guess :) I've seen the things attack enough to sort of eyeball their patterns, though I was pretty sure I'd be off by more...

Either way, I think that we don't really need to combine mechanics in this case. It overcomplicates the ability and chances are that players wouldn't notice anyway. I'd say go with just one or the other. I personally think the Aura approach is the superior one in this case. It's easier to visualise and less susceptible to AI target priority. The Rumblers want to be in melee, they petrify anything around them, that's simple enough to track. I do agree on target priority, as well. Rumblers should prioritise attacking Petrified enemies with no special consideration about whether a given enemy is already being targeted by another Rumbler.

That seems like the simplest approach, and it gives Atlas another source of Pterification. I personally like that quite a bit. With or without my proposed Rubble changes, he ought to have more access to Petrification than just his two most expensive ability casts.

This is a bit of an ideological issue with me. I know Warframe doesn't have traditional MMO/Hero Shooter classes of Tank/Healer/DPS. However, it very much has what I'd describe as Tank/Brawler Warframes who trade some amount of direct damage in return for personal durability. It's my belief that those Warframes should also be the ones with the heaviest control abilities, or at the very least with the most reliable hard control. It just makes sense for their general archetype. The game does seem to reflect this to a significant extent, with the likes of Atlas, Inaros, Nidus, Grendel, Rhino, etc. having reliable CC. As such, to me it makes sense for Atlas to be spamming CC as part of his standard kit.

Not to mention the broader "City of Blasters" issue that Warframe is suffering from right now. The "why take a Controller for CC when I can take a Blaster and just kill things" conundrum. Within this sort of environment, I feel that substantial CC would still be fairly balanced, all things considered. Yeah, Atlas could petrify a lot of people and keep them petrified for long... But a Mesa/Ember/Saryn can just kill them. Overall, I'm not that worried about over-tuning Petrify, or Rumblers. I suspect you'll disagree, but that's fair enough I think :)

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hace 21 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Fair enough. I think we've reached an impasse in regards to Tectonics and discussing it further doesn't seem to be yielding any worthwhile results. I'd say go with your own design and best of luck :) I personally want to scrap the ability and replace it with something quite different which isn't in the cards. As such, moving on...

In the end it is all about player's choice, we might not like certain abilities of certain frames and surely all of us would rework them differently, that's what leads to variety and a colourful community filled with ideas ( ·3·)👍🏼

hace 23 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

If you're talking about Iron Skin itself, then yes - of course. As far as I'm aware, both Ironclad Charge and Mecha Pulse are additive with other armour buffs and work off of base armour so the order in which they're triggered shouldn't matter for the underlying math. That's what I don't like about Rhino - so much of his maximisation requires on triggering a lot of short-duration armour buffs simultaneously, not because you intend to keep the armour but just as a "stat stick by another name" so Iron Skin spawns with a higher number. There's also Arcane Tanker, among a few others.

If you're talking about Atlas' Bulk Up / Stone Skin, I was under the impression that you would be using an approach similar to Iron Skin. That is to say, the bonus armour amount is based on Atlas' armour when it's initially cast but doesn't change if Atlas' armour changes subsequently. There aren't a lot of "clean" ways to do it any other way in the first place. In that case, the same applies - using all sources of bonus temporary armour together at the time of casting Augmented Tectonics would be the most optimal way to use that, as it would give you the largest number for bonus armour.

Just Iron Skin, don't worry, I really don't want to overcomplicate things for Tectonics anymore really, we have reached the perfect spot where we only happen to disagree on numeric values or simply, the ability itself. Lucky us we got Helminth to fix that, if we can call that a fix...

hace 26 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Valkyr's Mania Augment (hope I got the name right this time)

Noooot quite but don't worry, it's basically the same as the current name 😆

hace 28 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

That doesn't sound so extreme, really. Let me give you a bit of context. I just checked my Inaros Prime. He's sitting on 8510 raw health + 658 armour + Scarab Armour (another 225). I'm going to ignore Arcanes for the time being since Atlas can use the same combo of Guardian + Grace that I am. That's 8510 + 8510*(883/300) ~ 33 557.76 EHP. Seems like you came up with nearly double that. That's not too surprising given how much armour Atlas has, though I'm not sure what values you're using for health, base armour and Bulk Up. Sticking to numbers I have - even accounting for Arcane Guardian, the best I can get for Inaros is ~59 087.77. Although as a "regenerating" tank, he doesn't survive so much on raw EHP but also on regen, which where Arcane Grace is really overpowered. I'd be curious how much Arcane Guardian would help your Atlas, given that you're working with quite a bit less health.

I say less health, but your OP seems to suggest giving Atlas Prime 525 health (which is JUUUST shy of Inaros Prime at 575) and 800 armour. That's... a lot. I don't know if you want to get into number-crunching, but a 525-health, 800-armour Atlas should have a lot more than 7000-8000 EHP even with a basic build. My own Atlas Prime has 1838 health and 997 armour, for a total EHP of 1838 + 1838*(997/300) ~ 7 946.29. And mind you - mine's not actually Full Umbral - I didn't use any Umbral Mods at all, whereas I very much did on Inaros.

Number-crunching is actually one area where I might be able to help, since it's technically within my field of expertise :) My Bachelor's is in applied mathematics - has to count for something, I figure. Don't worry about making up stats if you don't have anything planned, but that might be fun.

I used a Rank 30 Atlas Prime with Full Umbral set for these calculations with 1500 Rubble infused for Bulk Up (1500% which works like MP, over the modded armour value).
Though, now you have mentioned Nidus, and I am really tempted to try my Atlas/Sevagoth type build on him too, could be really interesting, thanks for the indirect idea!

Atlas and Nidus have really similar stats but it does seem like there's a little mistake with Atlas' P stats as with full Umbral set he gets 1389 starting at 475 armour, whereas Nidus Prime gets 1199 starting at 525. This might be because Nidus gains armour as he ranks up, so the one used for his calculation is his base armour. I hadn't thought of this before.

And honestly, I like the concept of Inaros as a God and Atlas as a Titan, since I love old mythology, Egyptian being my favourite, so I don't see why not both could share similar HP and Armour stats, even if one had its balanced shifted towards one more than the other.

Also it does seem like I messed up while doing the formula by hand because I checked now online and full umbral Atlas P. has around 11k of EHP, seems I suck a bit at math lately D:
So numbers would be higher that what I've posted yare yare daze... don't really want to bother you with numbers right now, though I think both of us like them but it can get a bit "heavy".

If I do an Inaros rework in the future /as honestly I'd like to do one for all frames who seem in dire need of a hand/ I'll make sure to tag you so we can talky talk about it for hours and hours and make it just right.

hace 47 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Ah, I see. So your concern is less about the ability being bad for control and more about it not being as good as other control? Hmm... Not sure I agree, but let's run with it for now. You mentioned Ensnare, Larva and Condemn. Both Larva and Condemn have fairly short base durations - 7s and 6s, respectively. Condemn does recover shields, but your version of Atlas doesn't have shields so I don't feel that's a sufficient benefit. Larva has pretty good utility, but it's not really much of a control ability - it's very short and has a lot of failure conditions. Ensnare does have a long-ish duration, but that's a single-target hold. It can propagate to other targets, but every step of propagation loses 25% duration. Atlas, meanwhile, has a 20-second hard hold which - I just found out - also drops enemy elemental resistances by 50% additive across the board.

I don't remember all the Warframe abilities by heart, so if you can think of other contenders, post them and we can look at them, too. The reason I ask is to establish a baseline - what should we expect of "a really good hold" and what can we do to improve Petrify in that direction independent of any synergies?

First things first, I'd go one step beyond what you proposed and drop its cost to 25 energy. Condemn's 25, Larva's 25 (despite being a 2 ability) and Ensnare is 50 though that's likely more for the 100% bonus damage synergy with Whipclaw and Venari. I'd say dropping the cost is easily justified. I'd also argue that giving the hold a bit more duration as a means of setting it apart wouldn't hurt. Boosting Rank 4 duration to 25 should do wonders, especially if you build for ability duration. I don't know about making it a one-handed action, but I wouldn't be opposed to speeding up its animation. Basically, I want Atlas to work as a pretty solid hard CC Warframe, not just a guy who punches things, and making sure Petrify is worth using is fairly important for that.

And yes, I know you proposed 40 energy as a compromise, but this is one of those "you can go bigger" moments, I think :) The original Petrify is just WAAAY too expensive for what it does, so I'm not worried about cutting its cost down to a third and also increasing its other stats. If it becomes spammable, then let it be spammable. If Inaros can spam Dessication in a 15 meter cone in front of him with a much wider arc for 25 energy, Atlas should, as well.

Yeah, Petrify is a really good ability, and I must have been sleeping on it a lot (stats wise only, as I use it all the time) because I remember I used to have so little duration of only 8 seconds back then and less range too like 10 meters by default, yet now the targets seem to be petrified forever so I was a bit confused, checked that stats and correct, it has 20 seconds of duration while I always thought it had only 10s (O-o )

Have I been living under a rock all this time? All puns intended.

Now that I bear Petrify's base stats in mind, I understand why at first I left it untouched completely on the rework, I said it was one of his good abilities and I was right, and I also see why you defend it so much. Seems that as we kept talking I lost memory recollection of some things leading to unneeded changes being made.

So, as Petrify is actually awesome stats-wise by default, I think dropping its energy cost below half of what it currently takes should do it, at 30 energy per cast.
Neither for me nor for you, perfect middle ground.

Lets forget about increasing the cone angle, which is what I had proposed and leave the range as it is, but I would keep the addition of extra rubble drops in base to Power Strength.

hace 57 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

To be fair, that wasn't a COMPLETE guess :) I've seen the things attack enough to sort of eyeball their patterns, though I was pretty sure I'd be off by more...

Either way, I think that we don't really need to combine mechanics in this case. It overcomplicates the ability and chances are that players wouldn't notice anyway. I'd say go with just one or the other. I personally think the Aura approach is the superior one in this case. It's easier to visualise and less susceptible to AI target priority. The Rumblers want to be in melee, they petrify anything around them, that's simple enough to track. I do agree on target priority, as well. Rumblers should prioritise attacking Petrified enemies with no special consideration about whether a given enemy is already being targeted by another Rumbler.

That seems like the simplest approach, and it gives Atlas another source of Pterification. I personally like that quite a bit. With or without my proposed Rubble changes, he ought to have more access to Petrification than just his two most expensive ability casts.

Yeah, Golems with a Petrifying aura + focused targeting and damaging capabilities seems good enough already.
Like I said their damage and attack speed would be influenced by the melee mods equipped on Tremors so that's another key factor that boost their DPS.

One teeny tiny addition I would give to Golems is a combo link that goes both ways, so if they hit an enemy, that combo also counts towards Tremors' combo counter.

hace 59 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Not to mention the broader "City of Blasters" issue that Warframe is suffering from right now. The "why take a Controller for CC when I can take a Blaster and just kill things" conundrum. Within this sort of environment, I feel that substantial CC would still be fairly balanced, all things considered. Yeah, Atlas could petrify a lot of people and keep them petrified for long... But a Mesa/Ember/Saryn can just kill them. Overall, I'm not that worried about over-tuning Petrify, or Rumblers. I suspect you'll disagree, but that's fair enough I think :)

As much as I personally don't mind it, I know what you talk about. A lot of people complains about AoE nuking being meta and leaving single-target or not so aoe things in the background :P

Damage is true meta over super defences or CC, even more if invisibility is the best survivability. Though, petrifying things lowkey works like an area debuff too, since petrified targets also take more damage, so it is a CC with a bit of nuking orientation given how Landslide has AoE too, if you think about it.

That is why I love Atlas, his kit has a bit of everything even if none of those are the best of their class (by far for most cases excluding Petrify)!

And that's it, looks like we've made the final adjustments to this rework! Thanks a lot for your help Rook, couldn't have done it without you :d
Though now I'll have to tweak some augments, but I count on you to help me with that if I require of help.

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It looks like we're pretty much done here. I say this mostly because we seem to have either come to a compromise or an impasse on most points, so I don't really have much left to add without going off-topic. Seems like you're good to go. Do tag me if you ever mess with Inaros, just be warned - I have far stronger feelings about him than I do Atlas :)

 

On 2021-11-30 at 1:49 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

And honestly, I like the concept of Inaros as a God and Atlas as a Titan, since I love old mythology, Egyptian being my favourite, so I don't see why not both could share similar HP and Armour stats, even if one had its balanced shifted towards one more than the other.

I mostly brought up Inaros here as a point of reference. He's commonly seem as one of the toughest Warframes in the game, so balancing around his durability should be a decent starting point. It IS worth remembering, though, that Inaros is a "regenerator" far more so than he's a "resistor," in that a large portion of his durability is found in healing and sustain. His large health pool makes Arcane Grace and other "% of total health" heals very powerful on him. Medi-Ray, for instance, is drastically improved. Your Atlas is far more of a Resistor so it makes sense that he'd have higher overall EHP, though it's worth accounting for healing, as well.

You did mention not wanting to get into numbers, though, so that's fair enough. For if/when you decide to do more number-crunching, I'd propose including potential healing in there, as well. You could, for instance, look for an incoming DPS breakpoint where health remains stable - sustain able to recover as much health as the damage dealt. Or you could pick a range of DPS values and chart time-to-kill / time-to-fill depending on whether DPS exceeds sustain or not. Video game performance metrics are a fascinating subject that's not nearly as straightforward as it might seem on cursory examination of the individual pieces.

But that's going off-topic. Seems like you have a version of Bulwark that you're happy with and I can work with, with the only niggles being stats. So go with that, I'd say.

 

On 2021-11-30 at 1:49 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

So, as Petrify is actually awesome stats-wise by default, I think dropping its energy cost below half of what it currently takes should do it, at 30 energy per cast.
Neither for me nor for you, perfect middle ground.

Yup, 30 sounds good. Although in fairness, you did compromise VERY close to what I proposed, so how could I say otherwise? :) 30 is good - spammable enough to be a powerful control ability, but not cheap enough to be effectively free. It's also worth noting that a shield-less Atlas will also be recovering more health via Rage / Hunter Adrenalyne, since no health will be lost in damaging shields or the shield gate. Energy economy should be made easier as a result. I actually have a lot of words to say about "energy" in Warframe, but that would go WAAAY off-topic so maybe another time.

Seems like that's the only change you're looking to make to the ability, then? No increase in base duration or base cone length or base whatever else I mentioned that I don't remember any more? I mean, that's fine by me in general, since I already think that Petrify is a pretty dang good control ability. I'm glad to see you seem to agree, incidentally. Like I said - Atlas was my very first Warframe back in I think 2018. I leaned on Petrify very heavily at the time, though I rarely had enough Energy to use it much. As a new player who didn't have infinite Energy Restores or really any energy recovery mechanisms, that 75 cost was brutal. I ended up basically not using most if any of my abilities.

Energy economy aside, just lowering the cost of Petrify and loving it to the number 2 slot would be acceptable. I see no reason to argue further.

 

On 2021-11-30 at 1:49 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Yeah, Golems with a Petrifying aura + focused targeting and damaging capabilities seems good enough already. Like I said their damage and attack speed would be influenced by the melee mods equipped on Tremors so that's another key factor that boost their DPS. One teeny tiny addition I would give to Golems is a combo link that goes both ways, so if they hit an enemy, that combo also counts towards Tremors' combo counter.

I missed the bit about Rumblers being affected by Exalted Weapon mods, but it makes sense. You're skirting a bit close to "stat stick" territory, but I don't think it's worth worrying about in this case. The Tremors Exalted Weapon you're designing should be powerful enough to encourage building it for direct performance, rather than sacrificing performance for the sake of the Rumblers. Unlike melee weapon stat sticks, you also can't change the Exalted Weapon, so no danger of having to pick trash weapons just for their gimmicks. I think this is sufficiently mitigated that I've no reason to complain.

As to Golems sharing combo with Atlas, my stance on it is "sure, why not?" I'm not a big fan of melee combos, but I equally don't see an obvious issue with it. Yes, it means Atlas will have easier access to Combo from Tremors, but eh. He's a "punching" sort of guy. Let him have it. Seems fine to me.

 

On 2021-11-30 at 1:49 AM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

As much as I personally don't mind it, I know what you talk about. A lot of people complains about AoE nuking being meta and leaving single-target or not so aoe things in the background :P Damage is true meta over super defences or CC, even more if invisibility is the best survivability. Though, petrifying things lowkey works like an area debuff too, since petrified targets also take more damage, so it is a CC with a bit of nuking orientation given how Landslide has AoE too, if you think about it.

Pretty much, yeah. This is why I'm generally pretty lenient when it comes to control ability balance. It makes no sense to be conservative with over-tuning control abilities when players will disregard them anyway, in favour of more damage. Sometimes you need to over-things to a significant extent just to overcome mental momentum and get players to think that "Hey, this ability that doesn't deal damage is still pretty neat. Maybe I'll invest in it, instead of swapping it out for Rhino Roar again." It does mean that we're risking overwhelming enemy lockdown, but... I mean, when you can already overwhelmingly KILL enemies...

Point being, I wouldn't mind an even better Petrify :) Up to you, though. Just one of those "feel free to be bold with your proposals" things.

 

And yeah - looks like we're done for the moment. Hopefully I was able to help in a substantive manner, hopefully Atlas gets a bit of love :)

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hace 7 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

It looks like we're pretty much done here. I say this mostly because we seem to have either come to a compromise or an impasse on most points, so I don't really have much left to add without going off-topic. Seems like you're good to go. Do tag me if you ever mess with Inaros, just be warned - I have far stronger feelings about him than I do Atlas :)

Yup, took us a couple days but we made the best out of it :d

hace 7 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

I mostly brought up Inaros here as a point of reference. He's commonly seem as one of the toughest Warframes in the game, so balancing around his durability should be a decent starting point. It IS worth remembering, though, that Inaros is a "regenerator" far more so than he's a "resistor," in that a large portion of his durability is found in healing and sustain. His large health pool makes Arcane Grace and other "% of total health" heals very powerful on him. Medi-Ray, for instance, is drastically improved. Your Atlas is far more of a Resistor so it makes sense that he'd have higher overall EHP, though it's worth accounting for healing, as well.

You did mention not wanting to get into numbers, though, so that's fair enough. For if/when you decide to do more number-crunching, I'd propose including potential healing in there, as well. You could, for instance, look for an incoming DPS breakpoint where health remains stable - sustain able to recover as much health as the damage dealt. Or you could pick a range of DPS values and chart time-to-kill / time-to-fill depending on whether DPS exceeds sustain or not. Video game performance metrics are a fascinating subject that's not nearly as straightforward as it might seem on cursory examination of the individual pieces.

But that's going off-topic. Seems like you have a version of Bulwark that you're happy with and I can work with, with the only niggles being stats. So go with that, I'd say.

I perfectly understand you brought Inaros and Nidus as references, same way I used Excalibur as one when debating with Madurai-Prime on my augments thread.

And yes, Atlas is way more resilence-oriented than regeneration-oriented due to how his kits work.

When it comes to numbers I didn't want to get on them since the very beggining because it is what throws people off the most in this game.
They see a number they don't like they already loose their heads :P

hace 11 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

Seems like that's the only change you're looking to make to the ability, then? No increase in base duration or base cone length or base whatever else I mentioned that I don't remember any more?

Yeah, making it way cheaper and be the 2nd should be good enough improvements given how his kit has been reworked by us :D

 

hace 12 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

I missed the bit about Rumblers being affected by Exalted Weapon mods, but it makes sense. You're skirting a bit close to "stat stick" territory, but I don't think it's worth worrying about in this case. The Tremors Exalted Weapon you're designing should be powerful enough to encourage building it for direct performance, rather than sacrificing performance for the sake of the Rumblers. Unlike melee weapon stat sticks, you also can't change the Exalted Weapon, so no danger of having to pick trash weapons just for their gimmicks. I think this is sufficiently mitigated that I've no reason to complain.

As to Golems sharing combo with Atlas, my stance on it is "sure, why not?" I'm not a big fan of melee combos, but I equally don't see an obvious issue with it. Yes, it means Atlas will have easier access to Combo from Tremors, but eh. He's a "punching" sort of guy. Let him have it. Seems fine to me.

Oh, I've mentioned Rumblers being affected by the melee mods and combo counter of Tremors quite a couple times already!

Regarding golems perfroming combos, I think you have missunderstood this one a bit, I said, Rumblers will give you combo every time they hit an enemy, like Ash's Rising Storm augment that makes each stab the clones do, give you extra combo counter. It's a QoL "extra combo counter".

So, thank you very much Rook, I'll make sure to tag you whenever I do a Pocket-Sand God Rework in the future, will put it on my to-do list, but as for now, time to edit the main post to reflect all the changes done ( •̀ ω •́ )/

 

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