Argument to make Iron Shrapnel a base part of Rhino's kit.

[Neloc]

I know DE is super busy with the New War and probably a million other things, but I would like to suggest a change to Rhino that I think a lot of people have thought about or asked for. Can we please remove Iron Shrapnel as an augment and just have it as base part of Rhino's Iron skin ability? Since this is already an Augment I don't think it would be too hard to just turn it on by default on Rhino. (Disclaimer I am not a developer so this might actually be a very time consuming adjustment) However I would like to explain why I think it should be part of his base kit instead of an augment. I am going to attach an imgur folder link to a few pictures to prove my points.
 

https://imgur.com/gallery/K0ikc98
 

So first off disclaimer, yes I know that this is probably not the most min maxed super endgame Rhino build and there are ways to tweak it to get more iron skin, however this is my daily running build that I can use in pretty much any and all missions and gives me a good balance of everything. Second, yes I know some of the things I am about to discuss can be patched up by helmith but the point of this discussion is not to make Rhino stronger it is to put him in line with other frames. 

Now to cover the issue. I believe augments should add a new or unique way to play a frame or use an ability. For example Capacitance for Volt, this gives volt a way to make himself tankier as well as support his team with shields and CC. This is an example of an augment that gives the frame something new to play around and a unique build option. Iron shrapnel on the other hand just gives Rhino something other frames already have.

In this example I used Revenant because his Mesmer skin ability is similar to Rhino's Iron skin in the fact that it negates all in coming damage and statuses basically at the push of a button. However there is a few key differences between the two. One of the largest and most important to this discussion is Mesmer skin can be recast at any time without an augment where Iron skin cannot. Now I will discuss the different set ups that I used to set up the test for these two abilities, I will be ignoring anything both builds have in common such as growing power or a difference in mods because the main focus here is the set up and the results. To get the 75.5k iron skin I had to proc Arcane Tanker and hit 4 enemies with Ironclad charge (this was also made much easier by having an infusion for Rhino that gave me 100% ability range). To activate arcane tanker you have to call in your archgun which keeps you stationary for a time and makes you vulnerable. I kept the ironclad charge buff hitting 4 enemies because without a reliable way to group up enemies 4 seemed like a reasonable number to be able to consistently hit.  Now in the simulacrum where I done this testing I was able to survive 20 seconds with this amount of iron skin against 20 level 150 Corrupted heavy gunners by just standing there. 

Next I ran the same test with Revenant. Whereas Rhino takes a full set of arcanes, an archgun launcher, and hitting enemies with his first ability, with Revenant I activated Mesmer skin. Again I summoned 20 level 150 Corrupted heavy gunners and just stood there. I survived for 15 seconds, very similar times with very different set ups.

I am not hear to get into all the differences between the two frames or say one needs to be nerfed or the other needs to be buffed I am just focused on the fact that a frame like revenant can recast Mesmer skin whenever he wants where as Rhino cannot. I don't even mind using Arcane tanker and Ironclad charge because I think it is a super cool interaction that can lead to large amounts of Iron skin which is fun and interactive. However I think having to have an augment just to recast your ability  when you want to is a bit unnecessary and limits modding choices when you have to take two augments to pull off this combo. For instance if I did not need Iron shrapnel I could possibly put Flow in there for more energy so I could cast roar or stomp more, or I could add a range mod to get more benefit out of my other 3 abilities. So to summarize I believe that Iron Shrapnel should be removed as an augment and just be incorporated into Rhino's base kit as a quality of life change that I think would benefit the frame greatly. 



Update:

So there has been a lot of discussion around the reason this Augment exists. Some people believe that if you could just recast Iron skin when you wanted it would be too powerful and that is why the mod stays an augment to keep people from abusing some mechanic. However even with Iron Shrapnel you have to remove all your remaining armor which leaves you vulnerable not to mention you cannot really run and repeatedly cast iron skin (yes you can bullet jump and cast it in air but if you are trying to abuse a system to stay invincible this seems very convoluted and unnecessary with other options in the game). The other issue is that I think some people think you would be able to super stack armor if you could just remove your Iron skin whenever you wanted, however something hit me today even without Iron shrapnel in your build you can recast iron skin any time you want. Now this is not a fun mechanic and its very clunky but you can do it. Simply fall off the map, anytime rhino falls of the map or ends up somewhere where the player can't stand he is reset onto the tile set. This automatically removes his iron skin which makes it recastable. Yes I know there is a hard landing animation and you would be vulnerable during it however there are actually ways around this with certain mods and as I said when recasting Iron skin with Iron Shrapnel there is a moment you are vulnerable as well so not much difference just a little more inconvenient.

[lukinu_u]

I totally agree.
A lot of augments are just small QoL changes or minor changes that should be innate.

Smoke Shadow, Afterburn, Guided Effigy, Elemetal Sandstorm, Soul Survivor, etc... are good examples.

This would be a lot of work, but most of these augments should be integrated into the ability and replaced by more game changing augments.

[Neloc]

32 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I totally agree.
A lot of augments are just small QoL changes or minor changes that should be innate.

Smoke Shadow, Afterburn, Guided Effigy, Elemetal Sandstorm, Soul Survivor, etc... are good examples.

This would be a lot of work, but most of these augments should be integrated into the ability and replaced by more game changing augments.

Thanks for the reply. I definitely agree.  I am not super versed on all the augments out there but I figured Iron shrapnel wasn't the only one. I just thought it was silly as it basically just let's you do what most warframes can do innately such as casting an ability again before its cool down elapsed. Heck even leave the extra puncture damage as an augment if you must but Iron skin should be recastable. 

So many frames like revenant, chroma, and I am pretty sure nezha can all refresh their defensive abilities. Why not rhino?

[cute_moth.npc]

I think Rhino should be able to do this without needing a mod, yes.

Is it okay if Zephyr and Nova can do it too? :3

[T-Shark69]

11 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I think Rhino should be able to do this without needing a mod, yes.

Is it okay if Zephyr and Nova can do it too? :3

Why not? Revenant can do it, and his 2 makes him literally immortal.

[Neloc]

Error when submitting post is below.

[Neloc]

43 minutes ago, Twin_Fawn said:

I think Rhino should be able to do this without needing a mod, yes.

Is it okay if Zephyr and Nova can do it too? :3

I would say there are two different kinds of defensive abilities. The first is timed defensive abilities stuff like Loki's invisibility for example and then there are resource dependent defensive abilities such as rhino skin or mesmer skin.

I say this because I feel like timed defensive abilities could trivialize the game if you could recast them whenever you wanted. Using loki invisibility again if you could refresh that whenever you wanted you really wouldn't have any threat or draw back. However recasting something like iron skin completely removes your defenses while it is down and you are vulnerable. So I am not sure at how I feel about timed abilities being recastable such as zephyr's turbulence.

However Nova's ability works a lot like Barruk's daggers except they don't disarm. And since Barruk can recast his ability I do not see why Nova couldn't as well.

[(NSW)Greybones]

There’s so little use for the insane amounts of power and health we can stack, personally I’m fine with Augments being QoL options that we can slot when we don’t need such tremendous power. I’m actually all for introducing more options to equip

edit: Personally, I haven’t felt so strongly the need to re-cast Iron Skin; I’ll just recast if possible when it disappears, so I’m pretty okay with the augment being the thing that grants the ability to do so; gives the augment a little more value

[Neloc]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

There’s so little use for the insane amounts of power and health we can stack, personally I’m fine with Augments being QoL options that we can slot when we don’t need such tremendous power. I’m actually all for introducing more options to equip

edit: Personally, I haven’t felt so strongly the need to re-cast Iron Skin; I’ll just recast if possible when it disappears, so I’m pretty okay with the augment being the thing that grants the ability to do so; gives the augment a little more value

On normal star chart missions sure the amount of Iron skin you can get usually will see you through a whole mission with ease. However when you start hitting higher level content such as Steel path it doesn't really hold up that well or even something like liches or any of the other many bosses we have. But the base fact is that there are many other frames that can recast their defensive ability to ensure up time. I have yet to see a rhino build that doesn't use Iron Shrapnel just because it is so essential. I want Augments to be options not feel like requirements.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Neloc said:

On normal star chart missions sure the amount of Iron skin you can get usually will see you through a whole mission with ease. However when you start hitting higher level content such as Steel path it doesn't really hold up that well or even something like liches or any of the other many bosses we have. But the base fact is that there are many other frames that can recast their defensive ability to ensure up time. I have yet to see a rhino build that doesn't use Iron Shrapnel just because it is so essential. I want Augments to be options not feel like requirements.

Ech. Steel Path is pretty dumb anyways as a perpetual playing mode unless I really really like a build, and that build’d probably have Iron Shrapnel if I’m playing Rhino, so no big complaints from me in that regard.

What’s so important about Rhino being able to recast his Iron Skin? It’s just to soak up some damage, and once it’s gone, just add some more Iron Skin, right?

 🤔 Or is this something to do with the invulnerability period when casting IS?

[Neloc]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ech. Steel Path is pretty dumb anyways as a perpetual playing mode unless I really really like a build, and that build’d probably have Iron Shrapnel if I’m playing Rhino, so no big complaints from me in that regard.

What’s so important about Rhino being able to recast his Iron Skin? It’s just to soak up some damage, and once it’s gone, just add some more Iron Skin, right?

 🤔 Or is this something to do with the invulnerability period when casting IS?

Its not about giving Rhino more power it is about giving more power to the player. It allows the player to choose when to refresh Iron skin. For example say you start a mission and you don't have Iron Shrapnel, the mission starts and you use Iron skin now you have a 7k hp iron skin. Now if the enemies are actually a threat they could eat through your Iron skin pretty quick so you go through the first two tiles and they have taken your iron skin down to 500hp now you have to go into the next room with only 500 hp on your iron skin which puts you at risk of them completely removing it and killing you because you don't have the option to refresh. On the other hand if you do bring Iron shrapnel you can refresh it but you are loosing out on a mod slot that could be used for range, energy, duration, or any number of any mods that you might find useful.

In the end it is giving more options to the player. If someone like Revenant can get his own version of Iron skin without any set up and can recast it, that gives him extra modding options for the player and makes them a more versatile warframe. I am just looking to give a mod slot back to Rhino players because honestly having a mod to recast an ability like Iron skin is outdated and build inhibiting.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, Neloc said:

Its not about giving Rhino more power it is about giving more power to the player. It allows the player to choose when to refresh Iron skin. For example say you start a mission and you don't have Iron Shrapnel, the mission starts and you use Iron skin now you have a 7k hp iron skin. Now if the enemies are actually a threat they could eat through your Iron skin pretty quick so you go through the first two tiles and they have taken your iron skin down to 500hp now you have to go into the next room with only 500 hp on your iron skin which puts you at risk of them completely removing it and killing you because you don't have the option to refresh. On the other hand if you do bring Iron shrapnel you can refresh it but you are loosing out on a mod slot that could be used for range, energy, duration, or any number of any mods that you might find useful.

In the end it is giving more options to the player. If someone like Revenant can get his own version of Iron skin without any set up and can recast it, that gives him extra modding options for the player and makes them a more versatile warframe. I am just looking to give a mod slot back to Rhino players because honestly having a mod to recast an ability like Iron skin is outdated and build inhibiting.

I’m not one to strictly compare one Warframe to another, because I can only ever feel like playing one at a time and I find the “Oh but this Frame can do this thing better than this frame” both toxic and counter-productive to niche options, but Mesmer Skin costs like 50 energy to recast. That’s an expensive armour option for even the most minor of chip damage when I can dodge shots and bounce around in Iron Skin for potentially quite a while before having to recast (outside SP).

That’s beside the point though, just an observation. Regarding recasting; if someone outside of SP can kill me before I notice that my IS has depleted and I either reposition or recast, then I think that’s one of those situations where it might be worth exploring what I could have done differently, using that period of being dead as a chance to reflect.

I’m all for options, but in this case I feel like it sounds like being able to recast IS isn’t a thing worth addressing

[Leqesai]

15 minutes ago, Neloc said:

Its not about giving Rhino more power it is about giving more power to the player. It allows the player to choose when to refresh Iron skin. For example say you start a mission and you don't have Iron Shrapnel, the mission starts and you use Iron skin now you have a 7k hp iron skin. Now if the enemies are actually a threat they could eat through your Iron skin pretty quick so you go through the first two tiles and they have taken your iron skin down to 500hp now you have to go into the next room with only 500 hp on your iron skin which puts you at risk of them completely removing it and killing you because you don't have the option to refresh. On the other hand if you do bring Iron shrapnel you can refresh it but you are loosing out on a mod slot that could be used for range, energy, duration, or any number of any mods that you might find useful.

In the end it is giving more options to the player. If someone like Revenant can get his own version of Iron skin without any set up and can recast it, that gives him extra modding options for the player and makes them a more versatile warframe. I am just looking to give a mod slot back to Rhino players because honestly having a mod to recast an ability like Iron skin is outdated and build inhibiting.

I agree with Greybones on this. I used to be in the camp of "let us recast IS whenever we want" but I like that there is at least some challenge when playing Rhino due to IS running out. 

When you can get IS health values of over 1 million there is very little risk. Being able to control when it drops basically ensures you're able to retain tons of health. Having this ability cost a mod slot is worth it IMO.

[Neloc]

9 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I agree with Greybones on this. I used to be in the camp of "let us recast IS whenever we want" but I like that there is at least some challenge when playing Rhino due to IS running out. 

When you can get IS health values of over 1 million there is very little risk. Being able to control when it drops basically ensures you're able to retain tons of health. Having this ability cost a mod slot is worth it IMO.

I am all for having a challenge and I would argue that there is still risk to casting Iron skin as when you recast it completely removes your entire defense so its not like you can just do it whenever. Also I have a question what all do you have to do to get 1 million Iron skin? Do you have to dump stat range? Maybe efficiency, or duration? Or maybe a whole set of arcanes? When you do that all you usually have is IS or you had to farm/buy an certain set of arcanes. I want to be able to have a cohesive build that can use all the powers not just one or two. That goes for any frame.

[Leqesai]

5 minutes ago, Neloc said:

I am all for having a challenge and I would argue that there is still risk to casting Iron skin as when you recast it completely removes your entire defense so its not like you can just do it whenever. Also I have a question what all do you have to do to get 1 million Iron skin? Do you have to dump stat range? Maybe efficiency, or duration? Or maybe a whole set of arcanes? When you do that all you usually have is IS or you had to farm/buy an certain set of arcanes. I want to be able to have a cohesive build that can use all the powers not just one or two. That goes for any frame.

 

Here is a solid guide to getting 1 million+ Iron Skin. It is pretty darn easy in Steel Path to get it.

[Neloc]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m not one to strictly compare one Warframe to another, because I can only ever feel like playing one at a time and I find the “Oh but this Frame can do this thing better than this frame” both toxic and counter-productive to niche options, but Mesmer Skin costs like 50 energy to recast. That’s an expensive armour option for even the most minor of chip damage when I can dodge shots and bounce around in Iron Skin for potentially quite a while before having to recast (outside SP).

That’s beside the point though, just an observation. Regarding recasting; if someone outside of SP can kill me before I notice that my IS has depleted and I either reposition or recast, then I think that’s one of those situations where it might be worth exploring what I could have done differently, using that period of being dead as a chance to reflect.

I’m all for options, but in this case I feel like it sounds like being able to recast IS isn’t a thing worth addressing

I understand what you mean. The only reason I use revenant is because his mesmer skin works the closest to IS. It costs the same amount as IS it blocks damage and status like IS. There is only two main differences between MS and IS. One IS cannot be recast and MS can. Two yes MS can be removed with chip damage however it could also theoretically block more than any amount than IS ever could because it doesn't have a damage cap. So if the shot is 1 dmg you loose some MS but if the shot is 2 billion you blocked 2 billion. And yes I get the fact that you may never want to go against an enemy that does 2 billion dmg in one shot but again my point is not to make Rhino into a second revenant. I don't want him to have a million IS every time I hit the ability I just want the ability to choose when I refresh it. 

It can still run out if I am not paying attention just like it can now the only thing this change would do Is give Rhino player 1 extra mod slot. The ability to recast shouldn't be locked behind a mod because honestly this ability isn't so game breaking that it should be mod gated. 

[Neloc]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

 

Here is a solid guide to getting 1 million+ Iron Skin. It is pretty darn easy in Steel Path to get it.

Yes this is a build option that requires quite a bit of setup. But I fail to see why it is such a problem to allow Rhino to recast IS? Yes you can theoretically make any warframe un-killable with a very niche setup of mods, arcanes, focus abilities ect. My point is not to make Rhino unkillable it is just to allow him to have a mod slot back for more build customization. Its almost like having a frame that has to have a mod equipped to regen shields. Why would you want that when everyone else can just do that? Its not making that warfarme any stronger than any other by just letting him do what everyone else can do naturally.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, Neloc said:

I understand what you mean. The only reason I use revenant is because his mesmer skin works the closest to IS. It costs the same amount as IS it blocks damage and status like IS. There is only two main differences between MS and IS. One IS cannot be recast and MS can. Two yes MS can be removed with chip damage however it could also theoretically block more than any amount than IS ever could because it doesn't have a damage cap. So if the shot is 1 dmg you loose some MS but if the shot is 2 billion you blocked 2 billion. And yes I get the fact that you may never want to go against an enemy that does 2 billion dmg in one shot but again my point is not to make Rhino into a second revenant. I don't want him to have a million IS every time I hit the ability I just want the ability to choose when I refresh it. 

It can still run out if I am not paying attention just like it can now the only thing this change would do Is give Rhino player 1 extra mod slot. The ability to recast shouldn't be locked behind a mod because honestly this ability isn't so game breaking that it should be mod gated. 

Why is it important enough to want to refresh Iron Skin that you would feel shoehorned into using an augment to get the chance? You mentioned earlier that you had concerns about dying before getting the chance to recast it, but I’m wondering if there are other options available that would make re-casting not-so-crucial

[Leqesai]

6 minutes ago, Neloc said:

I understand what you mean. The only reason I use revenant is because his mesmer skin works the closest to IS. It costs the same amount as IS it blocks damage and status like IS. There is only two main differences between MS and IS. One IS cannot be recast and MS can. Two yes MS can be removed with chip damage however it could also theoretically block more than any amount than IS ever could because it doesn't have a damage cap. So if the shot is 1 dmg you loose some MS but if the shot is 2 billion you blocked 2 billion. And yes I get the fact that you may never want to go against an enemy that does 2 billion dmg in one shot but again my point is not to make Rhino into a second revenant. I don't want him to have a million IS every time I hit the ability I just want the ability to choose when I refresh it. 

It can still run out if I am not paying attention just like it can now the only thing this change would do Is give Rhino player 1 extra mod slot. The ability to recast shouldn't be locked behind a mod because honestly this ability isn't so game breaking that it should be mod gated. 

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Revenant's Mesmer Skin and Rhino's Iron Skin function differently. Refreshing Mesmer Skin without an augment makes sense because it can take considerably less hits before needing a refresh, making Revenant far more risky to play than Rhino with a solid Iron Skin build. Over 1 million Iron Skin health is somewhere like 10 minutes of Steel Path without needing a refresh. Mesmer Skin needs refreshed like every minute or so (whenever it drops under 10 I refresh) and also requires Rolling Guard for true immunity. In both cases a mod is required to make the ability really powerful. Iron Skin requires the augment and Mesmer Skin requires Rolling Guard. 

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, Neloc said:

letting him do what everyone else can do naturally.

Many abilities have restrictions. It isn't like you're singling out the one case where recasting while active isn't an option.

[Neloc]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Revenant's Mesmer Skin and Rhino's Iron Skin function differently. Refreshing Mesmer Skin without an augment makes sense because it can take considerably less hits before needing a refresh, making Revenant far more risky to play than Rhino with a solid Iron Skin build. Over 1 million Iron Skin health is somewhere like 10 minutes of Steel Path without needing a refresh. Mesmer Skin needs refreshed like every minute or so (whenever it drops under 10 I refresh) and also requires Rolling Guard for true immunity. In both cases a mod is required to make the ability really powerful. Iron Skin requires the augment and Mesmer Skin requires Rolling Guard. 

But mesmer skin doesn't require any of that you can just reave thralls and get the charges back. Revenant doesn't need any mods to be truly immortal. But again this is not the point I am not trying to make Rhino a better tank or drastically change his kit I am trying to give him more build options by removing a mod that is doing something that should just be innate. 

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, Neloc said:

But mesmer skin doesn't require any of that you can just reave thralls and get the charges back. Revenant doesn't need any mods to be truly immortal. But again this is not the point I am not trying to make Rhino a better tank or drastically change his kit I am trying to give him more build options by removing a mod that is doing something that should just be innate. 

It shouldn't be innate though. That is just your opinion. It works fine the way it is. 

[Neloc]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Many abilities have restrictions. It isn't like you're singling out the one case where recasting while active isn't an option.

No but as mentioned above when talking about Zephyr and Nova I feel like there are some warframes that should be able to recast their abilities because there are counter parts that can. Nova for instance her defense ability is very similar to Baruuk's daggers. Why is it that Barruk can recast his but Nova cannot? I am not saying rhino is the only instance I am just saying that Rhino has an augment that literally just lets him recast his defense ability. What if Barruk or Revenant had that restriction? Why don't they? All I am saying is put people on an equal playing field. Even with this change Rhino's playstyle will stay basically the same and you can still do the crazy 1 million IS builds but I don't see why being able to recast it is in such contention.

[Neloc]

13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It shouldn't be innate though. That is just your opinion. It works fine the way it is. 

But isn't it just your opinion that it works just fine the way it is? See I have pointed out several examples where this type of thing is built into the ability but there has not been a argument of why it should stay a mod. Other than "it works fine the way it is". This change would not make it to where Rhino could one shot all enemies in the game it wouldn't make it to where he could survive any hit, it wouldn't make him overpowered in any way. So the question is why is this a mod that needs to exist?

[Leqesai]

9 minutes ago, Neloc said:

But isn't it just your opinion that it works just fine the way it is? See I have pointed out several examples where this type of thing is built into the ability but there has not been a argument of why it should stay a mod. Other than "it works fine the way it is". This change would not make it to where Rhino could one shot all enemies in the game it wouldn't make it to where he could survive any hit, it wouldn't make him overpowered in any way. So the question is why is this a mod that needs to exist?

The burden of proof is on you since you are putting forth the idea that it should be changed. I personally dont think the false equivalency between rhino and other frames is a solid argument in defense of your position. 

Wanting it to be changed is fine. Whether or not it "should" is a more complicated position. I dont think it should be changed but i wouldnt be put off if they did homogenize these abilities somewhat. I have honestly never had an issue with timer abilities and refresh functionality. I typically dont bother using iron shrapnel because i rarely get in situations where the ability needs refreshed prior to fully getting depleted. Especially with shield gating.