Argument to make Iron Shrapnel a base part of Rhino's kit.

[Neloc]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

….What? It feels like there’s some… twisty winding logic going on here.

Maybe we’re coming from two different perspectives of what a “Broken game” looks like. How does one break Warframe?

I can't tell if you think warframe is balanced, isn't balanced, or are just trolling at this point.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Neloc said:

I can't tell if you think warframe is balanced, isn't balanced, or are just trolling at this point.

Warframe’s balanced, it’s just that the vast majority of players bring equipment that’s unsuited to the mission level. AKA overtuned equipment that takes all the fight out of the mission.

Because players want the game to be braindead easy, and because the game lets them do so if they choose, the average player experiences a braindead easy Warframe because they bring equipment that the content has no chance of standing up to.

You are aware that if you don’t bring a nuke to the fight, then enemy types and evasion mechanics and abilities get a chance to breathe, right?

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, Neloc said:

I can't tell if you think warframe is balanced, isn't balanced, or are just trolling at this point.

….Is this why it’s so hard to imagine that there would be any sort of impact regarding changing recast on Iron Skin? Have you sort of just blown everything away and found the inability to recast is a minor inconvenience instead of an actual detriment mechanic?

[Neloc]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

….Is this why it’s so hard to imagine that there would be any sort of impact regarding changing recast on Iron Skin? Have you sort of just blown everything away and found the inability to recast is a minor inconvenience instead of an actual detriment mechanic?

Ah see I have a friend like you. He was a founder played the game in early beta and always talks about how difficult it was. Don't get me wrong I like a challenge too and yes with the right builds you can breeze through just about any content. I agree with all of that but that is what warframe is. Warframe has become a game where power creep is the game. All you have to do is look at some of the most recent additions, like Rivens can make any weapon completely busted, Helmith can make any warframe completely busted, and that is ok. Warframe has turned into that power fantasy game the one where you can feel powerful and have fun. There are still places for a challenge such as SP or Endless endurance if that is your thing. Heck you could just try off meta builds with warframes in normal missions just to add extra challenge and see if they work. 

This is the beauty of warframe if you want to challenge yourself you can. If you want to feel like an unstoppable force you can. It caters to a large amount of people and this is why so many people play it. Warframe isn't balanced and it never will be, its just too big. DE would have to stop making any new content and just balance stuff for years to actually make a balanced game but that isn't fun that is not ninja's in space that is bland same old 3rd person shooter.

In summary no this is not "some minor inconvenience" nor is it "a detrimental mechanic" it is just a clunky mechanic that could be changed. I along with a few others have laid out why this would be a good change. And again I say this is a PVE game so what if someone is using Saryn and wiping the whole map with spores? So what if Revenant can one shot basically any level enemy in the game that isn't a boss. So what if Mesa is a turret that melts anything. The main point is this is a game and it is supposed to be fun. Would making Iron skin recastable really ruin your experience that much? 

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 minutes ago, Neloc said:

Ah see I have a friend like you. He was a founder played the game in early beta and always talks about how difficult it was. Don't get me wrong I like a challenge too and yes with the right builds you can breeze through just about any content. I agree with all of that but that is what warframe is. Warframe has become a game where power creep is the game. All you have to do is look at some of the most recent additions, like Rivens can make any weapon completely busted, Helmith can make any warframe completely busted, and that is ok. Warframe has turned into that power fantasy game the one where you can feel powerful and have fun. There are still places for a challenge such as SP or Endless endurance if that is your thing. Heck you could just try off meta builds with warframes in normal missions just to add extra challenge and see if they work. 

This is the beauty of warframe if you want to challenge yourself you can. If you want to feel like an unstoppable force you can. It caters to a large amount of people and this is why so many people play it. Warframe isn't balanced and it never will be, its just too big. DE would have to stop making any new content and just balance stuff for years to actually make a balanced game but that isn't fun that is not ninja's in space that is bland same old 3rd person shooter.

In summary no this is not "some minor inconvenience" nor is it "a detrimental mechanic" it is just a clunky mechanic that could be changed. I along with a few others have laid out why this would be a good change. And again I say this is a PVE game so what if someone is using Saryn and wiping the whole map with spores? So what if Revenant can one shot basically any level enemy in the game that isn't a boss. So what if Mesa is a turret that melts anything. The main point is this is a game and it is supposed to be fun. Would making Iron skin recastable really ruin your experience that much? 

….right. Alright, I’m getting a better sense of where you’re coming from now.

You were referring to some sort of “Macro” balance or whatever is a fitting term, as many players on here typically do. Where the game is balanced around all the mods we can get, which means all the most powerful combinations we can bring to a fight.

I was referring to a sort of “Micro” balance, where it’s what we take into a mission that actually matters. The place where we get locked into what we bring and can’t access any of those many other mods we have back in the Orbiter. Bring the powerful mods to a level, I don’t know, 40 relic crack, and it’ll be easy. Bring a different combination and the game may give a fight; depends on what’s brought. And if it’s going to give a fight, I feel like that’s the important thing to balance for. You don’t…. have to bring the powerful mods, either. Just saying.

And if a player isn’t bringing a nuke to the fight, that’s going to influence how the fight plays out in regards to how mechanics like recasting Iron Skin works. I don’t know whether recasting will ruin my experience; it does sort of feel like it would make it easier to stay invincible, making it easier to trivialise the fight even if I’m locked into the equipment I brought specifically looking for a good fight, but ultimately I’d have to test. I feel like something’d change, and I want to know what it is.

[Neloc]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

….right. Alright, I’m getting a better sense of where you’re coming from now.

You were referring to some sort of “Macro” balance or whatever is a fitting term, as many players on here typically do. Where the game is balanced around all the mods we can get, which means all the most powerful combinations we can bring to a fight.

I was referring to a sort of “Micro” balance, where it’s what we take into a mission that actually matters. The place where we get locked into what we bring and can’t access any of those many other mods we have back in the Orbiter. Bring the powerful mods to a level, I don’t know, 40 relic crack, and it’ll be easy. Bring a different combination and the game may give a fight; depends on what’s brought. And if it’s going to give a fight, I feel like that’s the important thing to balance for. You don’t…. have to bring the powerful mods, either. Just saying.

And if a player isn’t bringing a nuke to the fight, that’s going to influence how the fight plays out in regards to how mechanics like recasting Iron Skin works. I don’t know whether recasting will ruin my experience; it does sort of feel like it would make it easier to stay invincible, making it easier to trivialise the fight even if I’m locked into the equipment I brought specifically looking for a good fight, but ultimately I’d have to test. I feel like something’d change, and I want to know what it is.

But the thing is if you want to trivialize a fight you can already do that. If you don't want to spam iron skin you don't have to (even though it wouldn't make you invincible and it wouldn't give rhino anything new). If you don't believe me do what I did in reverse go slap on Ironclad charge and Iron shrapnel on your rhino and see if you just feel like Rhino is now invincible and can't die. But I am going to say that using basic star chart enemies honestly doesn't really count because unless you are standing still and not shooting they basically can't kill Rhino anyways. This is not "a unique to Rhino" thing either there are plenty of frames at their base with no augments or crazy helmith setups that can basically slap an unmodded gun on and solo the star chart (it would just take a while). But just try it out and see if you are not interacting with Iron skin more thanks to the synergy of the two mods. See if it doesn't change your gameplay some. Because like I said I did try removing Iron shrapnel from my setup and it drastically changed how I felt about the frame's powers and how they work together.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Neloc said:

But the thing is if you want to trivialize a fight you can already do that. If you don't want to spam iron skin you don't have to (even though it wouldn't make you invincible and it wouldn't give rhino anything new). If you don't believe me do what I did in reverse go slap on Ironclad charge and Iron shrapnel on your rhino and see if you just feel like Rhino is now invincible and can't die. But I am going to say that using basic star chart enemies honestly doesn't really count because unless you are standing still and not shooting they basically can't kill Rhino anyways. This is not "a unique to Rhino" thing either there are plenty of frames at their base with no augments or crazy helmith setups that can basically slap an unmodded gun on and solo the star chart (it would just take a while). But just try it out and see if you are not interacting with Iron skin more thanks to the synergy of the two mods. See if it doesn't change your gameplay some. Because like I said I did try removing Iron shrapnel from my setup and it drastically changed how I felt about the frame's powers and how they work together.

Alright, so an unmodded weapon.

What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino? You’re like, one step removed from what I was talking about in regards to seeing Iron Skin for what it is as a core ability at a core powerlevel. If you’re invincible in the Star Chart, all the way up through Sorties or Arbitrations, there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?

You gotta start at the start to understand where we’re all coming from in regards to a change that will permeate up through whatever personal combinations we have. It’s going to be hard to get an understanding of how well the foundation is holding up when there’s all this pretty carpet and whatever between you and said foundation

[Neloc]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Alright, so an unmodded weapon.

What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino? You’re like, one step removed from what I was talking about in regards to seeing Iron Skin for what it is as a core ability at a core powerlevel. If you’re invincible in the Star Chart, all the way up through Sorties or Arbitrations, there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?

You gotta start at the start to understand where we’re all coming from in regards to a change that will permeate up through whatever personal combinations we have. It’s going to be hard to get an understanding of how well the foundation is holding up when there’s all this pretty carpet and whatever between you and said foundation

I have experienced the new player experience fairly recently actually. So yes I have a fair understanding of what its like for a new player and what the foundation is like. And I don't think your comment came across like you wanted it to. 

"What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino? You’re like, one step removed from what I was talking about in regards to seeing Iron Skin for what it is as a core ability at a core powerlevel. If you’re invincible in the Star Chart, all the way up through Sorties or Arbitrations, there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?"

There would be no modding benefit happening on two things that are "unmodded".

Not to mention being able to recast iron skin wouldn't affect the earliest of early levels because it would only have synergy with Iron clad charge which is a syndicate mod which would have to either be traded for (which means a new player would have to have a large amount of knowledge about the game to ask for such a thing), or farmed which would take a good deal of time for a new player which means they would have learned a lot more about the game by then. This change would have little to no impact on new players. In fact most might be like "Hmm I can press my 2 again to remove my iron skin, just so I can press 2 to put it back on. That seems kinda pointless but ok." It wouldn't be until later when they learned about the synergies of mods and so on. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Neloc said:

I have experienced the new player experience fairly recently actually. So yes I have a fair understanding of what its like for a new player and what the foundation is like. And I don't think your comment came across like you wanted it to. 

"What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino? You’re like, one step removed from what I was talking about in regards to seeing Iron Skin for what it is as a core ability at a core powerlevel. If you’re invincible in the Star Chart, all the way up through Sorties or Arbitrations, there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?"

There would be no modding benefit happening on two things that are "unmodded".

Wait, what does this mean? Why is “Unmodded” in quotes?

[Neloc]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Wait, what does this mean? Why is “Unmodded” in quotes?

You said "What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino?" I was just emphasizing that if both things were unmodded like you said then this statement "there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?" doesn't make any sense because there would be no modding benefit on things that are unmodded.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Neloc said:

You said "What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino?" I was just emphasizing that if both things were unmodded like you said then this statement "there’s some sort of modding or benefit going on there, right?" doesn't make any sense because there would be no modding benefit on things that are unmodded.

 

Ah yeah, re-reading it I can see the confusion now. I get ya, thanks for clarifying

Yeah. Core power. I honestly thought you were implying that you’ve done Arbitrations or Sorties with core power, which would have been impressive, haha.

Hm. I’m going to do some testing to see what the difference is when actually engaged in a mission’s fight

 

[Neloc]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ah yeah, re-reading it I can see the confusion now. I get ya, thanks for clarifying

Yeah. Core power. I honestly thought you were implying that you’ve done Arbitrations or Sorties with core power, which would have been impressive, haha.

Hm. I’m going to do some testing to see what the difference is when actually engaged in a mission’s fight

 

Thats all I could ask for right now is just give it a try. If you want at the start of this post is my build I was running to give you a base line if you are interested. If you still think it would be too powerful I think we would just have to agree to disagree or you might find something I have missed that you could tell me about and I could try out.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, Neloc said:

Thats all I could ask for right now is just give it a try. If you want at the start of this post is my build I was running to give you a base line if you are interested. If you still think it would be too powerful I think we would just have to agree to disagree or you might find something I have missed that you could tell me about and I could try out.

 

Cool cool, I’ll note down your build for any referencing required 👍 

[T-Shark69]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I have no grudge against Steel Path; it’s an amazing place to test some builds that would otherwise trivialise the rest of the game.

[snip]

It’s true that we don’t know what DE are capable of, but I wouldn’t hold my breath personally if there’s more to consider than just the bit of coding necessary to add Iron Shrapnel’s recast feature into Rhino’s default Iron Skin.

Steel Path is relevant because it's the best place to farm resources, gives arcanes needed to make guns more relevant compared to melee, and gives players a challenge in the form of mini bosses periodically spawning, and for solo players gives the much sought after increased spawn rates compared to normal missions. It's not just a place to test weapons. Also just because one way to play si considered meta and sought more after doesnt mean that there isn't build variety. Case in point, I dove into SP Mot with Iron Skin removed completely as a skill.
That said and out of the way, Iron Skin being recastable by default has beend a requested addition as far as I can remember, seen posts and videos about before I even started playing. Years before Steel Path or even Arbitrations were added to the game. It's not just about being more powerful, it's about being in control of your own survivability skill. Iron Shrapnel should be that one mod that we slot in when we want to do big AOE damage, not the mandatory mod for Iron Skin usability.

> Why bulk up armour when I can just recast when there’s enemies shooting at me?
That's a valid way to use Iron Skin and has been for a while already. But it's not the only, nor best way to use it. Armor stacking is still gonna be the better choice if you wanna charge it once and focus on other skills without needing to cast it often.

>Abuse of 3 seconds of invulnerability.
>Ironclad Charge being super powerful
Can already be done without the augment at all via shield gating tactics. Can be done on Nezha too, in addition to having a secon invulnerability phase after his Halo breaks.. Atla's Rumbled augment which gives him a variant of Iron Skin can also be recasted. There's already precedent for it.
I. Charge is already superpowerful even without the recast. Case in point I use it on my extermination Roar build where you dont need to recast at all. Or even in the Mot video I posted above since, recast or not, its the best armor boosting mod in the game.
>If you’re going to say that recast isn’t unreasonable, then you need to test that theory to see whether it’s true. 
I cant test it to its full extent obviously but ive already considered its impact on newer players and gave my thoughts on how it would impact it. Take also into consideration that other frames already can get comparable amounts of EHP at will much easier so I dont see how it would affect the game more than it already is affected. Iron Skin also has a lot of drawbacks attached to it already. Namely all the gear, mods, and circumstance required to pull that EHP off, and also the inability to proc "on hit/damaged" arcanes which severely limit what you can use with Iron Skin active. So I don't really see recast by default making the setup instantly OP compared to what can already happen in the game. 

[T-Shark69]

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I don't use Iron Shrapnel in Steel Path and don't have issues with Iron Skin. I won't pretend that Iron Shrapnel isn't useful but at the same time I don't feel compelled to use it. 1M Iron Skin health lasts a long time, and I don't really feel like I need to recast the ability most of the time.

I dont use it on my short mission build either, but its necessary on survival runs or endless modes in general. You keep mentioning the 1M Iron Skin but as I said, the recast is a fundamental requirement to pull it off consistently. It's even part of the build guide you yourself linked earlier...

[T-Shark69]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What about an unmodded weapon… and an unmodded Rhino?

That's what I brought when unlocking Grendel the first time.... I think I had a clip in which I waded into a bunch of Nullifiers during the excavation mission, swinging War ,and I came out alive. Content outside of Sorites/Arbies/SP is really really really not that difficiult for any frame, not just Rhino. So i don't see how making something innate would make Rhino blast through lower level content so much more easily that you're questioning if innate recast is a good idea.

[Leqesai]

54 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

I dont use it on my short mission build either, but its necessary on survival runs or endless modes in general. You keep mentioning the 1M Iron Skin but as I said, the recast is a fundamental requirement to pull it off consistently. It's even part of the build guide you yourself linked earlier...

Yeah it is part of that build guide but i typically dont run with it on my setup. I dont always end up with 1m iron skin but on average i would say it is between 400k and 1.3m so it doesnt bother me much. Only reason i go this direction is to avoid accidentally disabling iron skin because i am a spaz and hit tok many buttons.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, T-Shark69 said:

That's what I brought when unlocking Grendel the first time.... I think I had a clip in which I waded into a bunch of Nullifiers during the excavation mission, swinging War ,and I came out alive. Content outside of Sorites/Arbies/SP is really really really not that difficiult for any frame, not just Rhino. So i don't see how making something innate would make Rhino blast through lower level content so much more easily that you're questioning if innate recast is a good idea.

🤔 And yet I’m gonna go ahead and ask. You are of course free to be absolutely inarguably undeniably correct in your speculation as a long-time veteran of the game who knows how it should work (a stance which seems birthed from an idea that Steel Path is the one true gamemode worth considering, or something). And I already told you those ideas off the top of my head were not going to be defended by me, so go ahead and argue against them to your heart’s content in your previous post. I skimmed your responses.

You have given me something additional to consider though; the impact on arcanes or mods that would normally be blocked by Iron Skin. If we can recast at will, I’m wondering what kind of effect it will have on those (perhaps there’s a reason they were designed to not be triggered while Iron Skin is active, perhaps not. gotta test)

[T-Shark69]

49 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🤔 And yet I’m gonna go ahead and ask. You are of course free to be absolutely inarguably undeniably correct in your speculation as a long-time veteran of the game who knows how it should work (a stance which seems birthed from an idea that Steel Path is the one true gamemode worth considering, or something). And I already told you those ideas off the top of my head were not going to be defended by me, so go ahead and argue against them to your heart’s content in your previous post. I skimmed your responses.

You have given me something additional to consider though; the impact on arcanes or mods that would normally be blocked by Iron Skin. If we can recast at will, I’m wondering what kind of effect it will have on those (perhaps there’s a reason they were designed to not be triggered while Iron Skin is active, perhaps not. gotta test)

Youre making an awful lot of assumptions about me in there, and truth be told the only reason why SP is being brought up is because you keep mentioning it. I don't think i have  anything left to say about your arguments.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Sincerely, at this point I'd rather prefer if they just forgot about the existance of Rhino. 

He is one of the strongest WF's in the game rn. Due to the recent addition to Helminth (aka Parasitic Armor). I'm afraid they'll find some stupid reason to nerf him as they do with everything.

[Neloc]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)GodMasterTP said:

Sincerely, at this point I'd rather prefer if they just forgot about the existance of Rhino. 

He is one of the strongest WF's in the game rn. Due to the recent addition to Helminth (aka Parasitic Armor). I'm afraid they'll find some stupid reason to nerf him as they do with everything.

Honestly I don't think you have to worry about them nerfing Rhino when Revenant exists.

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

OP, you're 100% correct, also if Rhino released today all of his augments would just be in his kit. Rhino feels dated and clunky anyone who says otherwise either barely plays him or has some weirdo ego/elitism about the "set up". I do all of it and yeah it works but it's annoying and silly when rev and adaption nezha can do the same S#&$ only slightly less effective with 0 effort. Going further people who think Rhino is fine have either never payed attention to good synergy in kits in WF and other games, or are being intentionally ignorant.

 

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Baron Kit said:

if Rhino released today all of his augments would just be in his kit.

Hard disagree. If Rhino was released today he would very likely be a completely broken mess. Just look at the dumpster fire that is Yareli. Being released now is absolutely no guarantee of quality.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Baron Kit said:

anyone who says otherwise either barely plays him or has some weirdo ego/elitism about the "set up"

 

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Baron Kit said:

people who think Rhino is fine have either never payed attention to good synergy in kits in WF and other games, or are being intentionally ignorant.

This is the wrong way to approach an argument. If you want anyone to take your opinion seriously then you need to not make wild (and off-base) claims about groups of people for whom you have no evidence being how/what you describe.

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Hard disagree. If Rhino was released today he would very likely be a completely broken mess. Just look at the dumpster fire that is Yareli. Being released now is absolutely no guarantee of quality.

 

This is the wrong way to approach an argument. If you want anyone to take your opinion seriously then you need to not make wild (and off-base) claims about groups of people for whom you have no evidence being how/what you describe.

Yareli is the odd one out. Sev, Lavos and xaku are all solid, cool cherry picking tho. As for the rest, you and grey already proved me right, im not here to debate useless arguments. OP is objectively right. Open close.

[PeridosPrime]

What’s more urgent for Rhino is making his Ironclad Charge part of his default 1 ability, because the base ability becomes utterly useless beyond Mars level enemy. 

In a more wider and deeper scope, DE really has to spend time in the future reviewing the damage system of Warframe/Archwing abilities as, in the current state, most damage abilities are complete dog S#&$ and have no real way of damage scaling.