(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 2 hours ago, FlerpDish said: So you're saying you have to fail to learn? Instead of telling the player what to do specifically or to have a quest mission that walks the player through this one very specific type of mission? Making a player to fail because of bad instructions is not a fun way to teach a player, nor does it bring anything to the game. Having clear instructions isn't handholding. And no, this is not similar to children not being able to drive motorcycles, you're overexaggerating this. This is more like telling a person who only knows how to cook eggs to bake a cake with barely any instructions. Yes, that's literally what learning is. Did you not die at all at any point in the game? People fail in games with the best tutorials....it's almost like there's a human factor that people conveniently never consider. Like I said, read the transmissions if you need the help that badly. Your tutorial isn't in the game yet, and it's not coming anytime soon, so by the time it's actually here in an update, you should know what to do by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreisterDino Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Let me say one thing first: Yes, Warframe could use better Tutorials for some of the Content, especially key-content like Modding. But this is such a basic and easy mission, it really shouldnt need a Tutorial. vor 2 Stunden schrieb FlerpDish: So you're saying you have to fail to learn? Instead of telling the player what to do specifically or to have a quest mission that walks the player through this one very specific type of mission? Making a player to fail because of bad instructions is not a fun way to teach a player, nor does it bring anything to the game. Having clear instructions isn't handholding. Maybe its because i am from a different generation of gaming (already play games for like 20 years), but yes, players failing and learning from their mistakes, observing the environment and put everything they know or get to know on the way together is not unusual in many games and can be fun. And this is definetly a key element of gaming. There are so many games in which you have to listen to dialogues or watch for clues in the world to understand what you have to do. DE once released Data on mission success rate: On average, we have a success rate of over 90% (and i wouldnt be surprised if the majority of the failed missions are just "oh wrong loadout, start again", host migrations or stuff like that). Warframe is already a really easy game and in most missions you cannot fail unless you want to. So what is the problem with a mission you have to take like 5 mins to figure it out and fail maybe once? But thats probably part of the problem: Warframe players are simply not used to fail at any point in the game, and the dogma of efficiency just doesnt allow the potential of just a few "wasted" minutes. But i think there is nothing wrong with failing every now and then, and like the data shows, we dont even fail that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayArchon Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 34 minutes ago, DreisterDino said: players failing and learning from their mistakes, observing the environment and put everything they know or get to know on the way together is not unusual in many games and can be fun. While I agree with this sentence, you quickly point out the issue with it: 34 minutes ago, DreisterDino said: DE once released Data on mission success rate: On average, we have a success rate of over 90% 34 minutes ago, DreisterDino said: Warframe players are simply not used to fail at any point in the game, and the dogma of efficiency just doesnt allow the potential of just a few "wasted" minutes. Warframe isn't a game that really operates like that (on a "learn from failure" approach). The game encourages efficiency, and the players come to expect it. So while there's nothing inherently wrong with learning to do Kuva Siphons by failing first, it doesn't fit in Warframe. The difference will be (and, based on anecdotal evidence in this thread, is) jarring to players who encounter it for the first time, and in the end, it will be less fun. Messing with player expectations is generally not a good thing (outside of story elements), and players in Warframe don't expect failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DealerOfAbsolutes Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Warframe could use more blaring red indication markers. Like a red glowing reticle that screams shoot me for the clouds. For boss weak points. For when our Warframes are targeted by Bombard rockets. Giant red glowing AOE circle denoting explosion radius ala Lenz for enemy explosives before they make contact so players can't complain about being one shot out of nowhere. Warframe is terrible at telegraphing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlerpDish Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: Yes, that's literally what learning is. Did you not die at all at any point in the game? People fail in games with the best tutorials....it's almost like there's a human factor that people conveniently never consider. Like I said, read the transmissions if you need the help that badly. Your tutorial isn't in the game yet, and it's not coming anytime soon, so by the time it's actually here in an update, you should know what to do by then. 59 minutes ago, DreisterDino said: Let me say one thing first: Yes, Warframe could use better Tutorials for some of the Content, especially key-content like Modding. But this is such a basic and easy mission, it really shouldnt need a Tutorial. Maybe its because i am from a different generation of gaming (already play games for like 20 years), but yes, players failing and learning from their mistakes, observing the environment and put everything they know or get to know on the way together is not unusual in many games and can be fun. And this is definetly a key element of gaming. There are so many games in which you have to listen to dialogues or watch for clues in the world to understand what you have to do. DE once released Data on mission success rate: On average, we have a success rate of over 90% (and i wouldnt be surprised if the majority of the failed missions are just "oh wrong loadout, start again", host migrations or stuff like that). Warframe is already a really easy game and in most missions you cannot fail unless you want to. So what is the problem with a mission you have to take like 5 mins to figure it out and fail maybe once? But thats probably part of the problem: Warframe players are simply not used to fail at any point in the game, and the dogma of efficiency just doesnt allow the potential of just a few "wasted" minutes. But i think there is nothing wrong with failing every now and then, and like the data shows, we dont even fail that often. Gonna quote both of you because what I'm about to say kinda applies to both posts. Failing and learning is fine. But failing because of poor instructions on the part of the game is not fine. It just frustrates the player, and the player themselves wont feel that they "deserved" to fail. Have you ever played a MOBA, or a game similar to MOBAs? Have you ever had teammate feed their a**es off, leading to your team getting stomped even though you did well? That's the kind of feeling you give to players when they fail because they literally have no idea how to succeed due to the lack of instructions. They feel helpless, like the game is actively fighting against them. It's not a nice feeling, and may in fact turn players off from playing those missions entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, GrayArchon said: While I agree with this sentence, you quickly point out the issue with it: Warframe isn't a game that really operates like that (on a "learn from failure" approach). The game encourages efficiency, and the players come to expect it. So while there's nothing inherently wrong with learning to do Kuva Siphons by failing first, it doesn't fit in Warframe. The difference will be (and, based on anecdotal evidence in this thread, is) jarring to players who encounter it for the first time, and in the end, it will be less fun. Messing with player expectations is generally not a good thing (outside of story elements), and players in Warframe don't expect failure. Except that it does operate like that....which is why we have revives and the option to gain more lives via arcanes. The game is expecting you to occassionally fail, and provides a back up. Devs have already stated they aren't expecting people to run endurance missions and the insane level and armor increases are to encourage you to basically leave. It does fit in warframe, because a kuva siphon mission is the least jarring experience compared to what else is in the game....have you played through fully? Is profit taker not jarring lol?? Do you consider profit taker as equally jarring as a kuva siphon mission? Player expectations are messed with and will continue to be messed with....because some players have irrational and entitled expectations....ever read the bramma nerf thread? How about the Helmith roar nerf thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfly85 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 hours ago, -Krism- said: Pretty sure Lotus tells you exactly what to do She does. Tells you to use Spoiler mode and shoot the clouds. Only way she could help more is physically appear in the mission and do it herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, FlerpDish said: Gonna quote both of you because what I'm about to say kinda applies to both posts. Failing and learning is fine. But failing because of poor instructions on the part of the game is not fine. It just frustrates the player, and the player themselves wont feel that they "deserved" to fail. Have you ever played a MOBA, or a game similar to MOBAs? Have you ever had teammate feed their a**es off, leading to your team getting stomped even though you did well? That's the kind of feeling you give to players when they fail because they literally have no idea how to succeed due to the lack of instructions. They feel helpless, like the game is actively fighting against them. It's not a nice feeling, and may in fact turn players off from playing those missions entirely. I'm sure we can all expect some more rounds of tutorials, but it's never gonna be enough. What's your answer for people failing with the best tutorials in the gaming world? What else will a game have to do to carry the lowest denominator? After a point, the player needs to correct whatever handicaap they are placing on themselves. "Lead a horse to water..." "God helps those that help themselves..." etc etc. There are different games for different reasons. The world is big enough that if you can't make it in one game, there's more that are a better fit for the individual players skill/coordination level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlerpDish Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: I'm sure we can all expect some more rounds of tutorials, but it's never gonna be enough. What's your answer for people failing with the best tutorials in the gaming world? What else will a game have to do to carry the lowest denominator? After a point, the player needs to correct whatever handicaap they are placing on themselves. "Lead a horse to water..." "God helps those that help themselves..." etc etc. There are different games for different reasons. The world is big enough that if you can't make it in one game, there's more that are a better fit for the individual players skill/coordination level. I never said we should handhold the player. All I am advocating for is a better tutorial to kuva siphons, which is a mission type somewhat separated from the main game and which you can go the whole game through without doing a single one. Of course some people may fail to understand a tutorial even if it's the best one in the world, but that doesn't excuse the current lack of a decent tutorial or at the very least clear instructions for kuva siphons. There's a saying: "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." The game needs to teach you how to play the game. Giving the player everything isn't the solution, but a better tutorial for a very niche and unique mission type won't hurt anyone. (And no, telling the player to just "shoot the clouds lol" isn't clear instructions especially since kuva siphon missions are the only times we ever see that mechanic in place. Also doesn't help that the kuva clouds are quite hard to see, being completely black with the occasional red spark.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 35 minutes ago, FlerpDish said: I never said we should handhold the player. All I am advocating for is a better tutorial to kuva siphons, which is a mission type somewhat separated from the main game and which you can go the whole game through without doing a single one. Of course some people may fail to understand a tutorial even if it's the best one in the world, but that doesn't excuse the current lack of a decent tutorial or at the very least clear instructions for kuva siphons. There's a saying: "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." The game needs to teach you how to play the game. Giving the player everything isn't the solution, but a better tutorial for a very niche and unique mission type won't hurt anyone. (And no, telling the player to just "shoot the clouds lol" isn't clear instructions especially since kuva siphon missions are the only times we ever see that mechanic in place. Also doesn't help that the kuva clouds are quite hard to see, being completely black with the occasional red spark.) It should only take a few missions to eventually notice a braid raising in the air and pointing towards a black cloud. I know PC users have smaller screens....but they also have better graphics and probably rendering, processing etc. I can see the clouds and my effects are turned down like 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlerpDish Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: It should only take a few missions to eventually notice a braid raising in the air and pointing towards a black cloud. >it should take a few failed missions to finally understand what to do in a mission Do you realize how stupid that is game design wise? "We designed this mission so that most players won't be able to understand what's going on until they run it a few times. Then they'll understand. Who needs actual tutorials, amaright?" Said no game dev, ever. 14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: I know PC users have smaller screens....but they also have better graphics and probably rendering, processing etc. I can see the clouds and my effects are turned down like 50%. Eh, better graphics don't automatically mean easier to see. The clouds are *visible*, but hard to notice when you're not actively looking for them. I even miss the clouds occasionally even though I'm actively looking for it. Thing is, new players would probably be looking at the kuva siphon directly, since the thing they're told to do is to destroy the kuva siphon. They'll probably be spamming attacks at the siphon itself, and may accidentally shoot a kuva cloud. Now you may think this is good, since they managed to destroy one braid, but I believe this is counterproductive. This may lead the player to think that spamming attacks at the kuva siphon instead of looking for a kuva cloud is the actual way to destroy the kuva siphon, thus leading to more misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, FlerpDish said: >it should take a few failed missions to finally understand what to do in a mission Do you realize how stupid that is game design wise? "We designed this mission so that most players won't be able to understand what's going on until they run it a few times. Then they'll understand. Who needs actual tutorials, amaright?" Said no game dev, ever. Eh, better graphics don't automatically mean easier to see. The clouds are *visible*, but hard to notice when you're not actively looking for them. I even miss the clouds occasionally even though I'm actively looking for it. Thing is, new players would probably be looking at the kuva siphon directly, since the thing they're told to do is to destroy the kuva siphon. They'll probably be spamming attacks at the siphon itself, and may accidentally shoot a kuva cloud. Now you may think this is good, since they managed to destroy one braid, but I believe this is counterproductive. This may lead the player to think that spamming attacks at the kuva siphon instead of looking for a kuva cloud is the actual way to destroy the kuva siphon, thus leading to more misinformation. "We designed the mission to assume the player can read and/or hear because this game is rated M and most people graduate high school around age 17 to 19 and the legal age of maturity is 18. We don't want to use too much exposition because we value our audience's intellect and desire to uncover mystery." Said some dev, somewhere. "When you're not actively looking for them." Then look for them....you clicked on the prompt to start the mission...why would you not pay attention? So a quick update to change the syntax and sentence structure of the transmissions should be sufficient then? To ensure they mention the braids and the clouds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlerpDish Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 21 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: "We designed the mission to assume the player can read and/or hear because this game is rated M and most people graduate high school around age 17 to 19 and the legal age of maturity is 18. We don't want to use too much exposition because we value our audience's intellect and desire to uncover mystery." Said some dev, somewhere. "When you're not actively looking for them." Then look for them....you clicked on the prompt to start the mission...why would you not pay attention? So a quick update to change the syntax and sentence structure of the transmissions should be sufficient then? To ensure they mention the braids and the clouds. As I have said in my original post, I've had people play the mission without knowing what the kuva siphon even is. If people didn't even know the kuva siphon itself existed, how tf are they supposed to know what to do? You keep assuming that the player playing the mission already know exactly what to do, while I am referring to players who have no idea what to do as it is their first time doing the mission. Having clear instructions isn't exposition. What's next? No tutorial on how basic movements should work because "most people have played video games and should know, probably"? Being 18 doesn't automatically make you understand every game's mechanics. And no, not just a syntax update. They should just redo the entire transmission, mention the cloud approaching the siphon when the cloud spawns from the direction the braid is pointing in, and mention that the operator mode is key. Right now, all the Lotus says (other than "the operator mode is key") is "the resonance frequency has changed, you're onto something", which doesn't explain anything to the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PublikDomain Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, FlerpDish said: And no, not just a syntax update. They should just redo the entire transmission, mention the cloud approaching the siphon when the cloud spawns from the direction the braid is pointing in, and mention that the operator mode is key. Right now, all the Lotus says (other than "the operator mode is key") is "the resonance frequency has changed, you're onto something", which doesn't explain anything to the player. Sounds like a good place for a quest. After TWW you get immediate access to Kuva Siphon missions, when there's A) some story that's been left out and B) a new mode to be taught. The Elder Queen is now dead, and the Worm Queen is up to something involving more of that Kuva stuff from the end of TWW. What is she planning? What even is Kuva? A quest could mention what the Worm Queen's been up to, what she's using Kuva for, maybe expand on the lore around Kuva, and of course give players a more scripted piece of Kuva Siphon gameplay so they can understand what's actually going on. All of this stuff is already hinted now at if you pay attention to the transmissions and are up on the rest of the game's lore, but like with most of the game you can blaze through everything at mach 12 and never even notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)jaggerwanderer Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 50 minutes ago, PublikDomain said: Sounds like a good place for a quest. After TWW you get immediate access to Kuva Siphon missions, when there's A) some story that's been left out and B) a new mode to be taught. The Elder Queen is now dead, and the Worm Queen is up to something involving more of that Kuva stuff from the end of TWW. What is she planning? What even is Kuva? A quest could mention what the Worm Queen's been up to, what she's using Kuva for, maybe expand on the lore around Kuva, and of course give players a more scripted piece of Kuva Siphon gameplay so they can understand what's actually going on. All of this stuff is already hinted now at if you pay attention to the transmissions and are up on the rest of the game's lore, but like with most of the game you can blaze through everything at mach 12 and never even notice it. I mean this all can just be woven into The War Within fight with the Queens. You know where there's no dire consequences in failing. We could of just have a phase were those fat balls of flesh can run around while the Queens drains Kuva. It is up to the tenno to stop the process with Tenshin telling us what to do and how to do it. Kuva Siphon and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said: They already have, people just ignore them. If there's too much going on in the tileset, CC the enemies so you can pay attention to the prompts and transmissions. It's ok if you miss a cloud, most can be seen. Try adjusting light or display settings? Pretty sure Lotus tells you to "destroy the Kuva clouds" AFTER you do exactly that. If you fail to do that she just say random BS like "It's using your energy to...this is bad. Destroy it" which doesn't tell anything at all. And pls Kuva Siphon is just a chore players would be doing hundreds of thousands of time. It's not some super-duper secret technique only the best vets know how to do that. Just show players the God damn way to do it and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotyke Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said: Pretty sure Lotus tells you to "destroy the Kuva clouds" AFTER you do exactly that. If you fail to do that she just say random BS like "It's using your energy to...this is bad. Destroy it" which doesn't tell anything at all. And pls Kuva Siphon is just a chore players would be doing hundreds of thousands of time. It's not some super-duper secret technique only the best vets know how to do that. Just show players the God damn way to do it and be done with it. The moment you get close you get a big "Press 5 to use Transference", it's already a big hint that your Warframe and weapons will not cut it. And looking at the Siphon as it raises the braid at a direction and you see a red/black cloud coming from that direction... Looter shooter reasoning says "Shoot/Hit/Stab/Blast/Kick/Tackle/Tickle/Penetrate it!" as far as I know. The Braid stands erect and succs cloud? Hitting erect dangle bit doesn't flaccid it... Maybe hitting the cloud? Erect dangly bit explodes... Climax. All it needed was a child's touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ErydisTheLucario Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 I feel so called out...yeah that's me. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I'm MR25, to this day idk how to properly damage the siphons. Then again I'm not so big on gathering Kuva anyway since I don't really dabble in Rivens. Point is, this is something I should learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George_PPS Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 11 hours ago, FlerpDish said: Did a few kuva siphon runs yesterday, and out of the 6 I did, in 4 of those runs the people I was running with didn't know how to damage the kuva siphons/didn't even know what a kuva siphon was. I was in the same situation when I did my first kuva siphon. All the game told you was that "your operator is key" and to "destroy the kuva clouds". For one, the kuva clouds are near invisible in a darker tile set, and in the chaos of fighting it's essentially invisible. Another thing is that kuva siphons are first introduced in their own separate mission, and not during the War Within quest, meaning players would have no prior experience on how to do the kuva siphons. It's almost necessary for a player to go online and watch/read up on how to destroy the kuva siphons because of how poorly the games explains it. When I first did a kuva siphon run, I thought we were supposed to shoot the kuva siphon itself with your operator, or to dash through it or something like that, like how you were supposed to dash through the Elder Queen in the War Within quest. Any thoughts? Similar experiences? Or were you able to figure out kuva siphons the first time you ever encountered one? The invincibility of the guards could be nullified by dash through them but it’s no more. Not only that,,DE also massively increased the numbers of the guards in these missions and also their hit boxes are literally only 25% or 10% as big as before. Just need to get used to it and grind Kuva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeaHands Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Gotta make an embarrassing confession, have been doing Kuva Siphon/Floods for about 2 years now. Had no idea you could shoot the clouds. I must have missed a few times with my Mote Amp and assumed that was not the way to destroy them. I've been Void dashing through the clouds this whole time. The game could 100% be more clear on what to do. The first couple of times I did the missions I assumed the Kuva Clouds were just a texture that appeared in these specific missions, like the air particle effects in Infected missions. Never in a millions years did I think I was suppose to shoot a cloud. Especially since the main time you see kuva up to that point was in pools of liquid and in the container that you have the option to drink. There may have been clouds floating around but I didn't notice. Also the Lotus is completely useless until you actually shoot a cloud. All they need to do is keep the transference prompt at the top of the screen, after maybe 4 failures, just add another prompt to target the Kuva Cloud? People trying to compare learning Kuva Siphons to a learning moment in Mega Man, Dark Souls, or Metroid need to stop. All the subtleties in the world can't convey the fact you need to attack a texture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DealerOfAbsolutes Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 7 hours ago, FlerpDish said: >it should take a few failed missions to finally understand what to do in a mission Do you realize how stupid that is game design wise? "We designed this mission so that most players won't be able to understand what's going on until they run it a few times. Then they'll understand. Who needs actual tutorials, amaright?" Said no game dev, ever. Eh, better graphics don't automatically mean easier to see. The clouds are *visible*, but hard to notice when you're not actively looking for them. I even miss the clouds occasionally even though I'm actively looking for it. Thing is, new players would probably be looking at the kuva siphon directly, since the thing they're told to do is to destroy the kuva siphon. They'll probably be spamming attacks at the siphon itself, and may accidentally shoot a kuva cloud. Now you may think this is good, since they managed to destroy one braid, but I believe this is counterproductive. This may lead the player to think that spamming attacks at the kuva siphon instead of looking for a kuva cloud is the actual way to destroy the kuva siphon, thus leading to more misinformation. Literally me for months. Literally the same problem with a lot of bosses. At least one person in the squad knows what they are doing and for the rest, it's a blink and you miss it moment where they don't learn anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowgrav Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 9 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said: Warframe could use more blaring red indication markers. Like a red glowing reticle that screams shoot me its strange that i got these perminent red enimy marker that you speak of in the simulacrum for certain enimys so i guess some people need help even in the simulacrum with finding the enimys or figuring out what to do ....even there in the simulacrum???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DealerOfAbsolutes Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, lowgrav said: its strange that i got these perminent red enimy marker that you speak of in the simulacrum for certain enimys so i guess some people need help even in the simulacrum with finding the enimys or figuring out what to do ....even there in the simulacrum???? I'm not talking about the radar. I'm talking about things like Sargus Ruk weak points. Usually half the squad deals no damage to him and one guy is clean up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 9 hours ago, GrayArchon said: Warframe isn't a game that really operates like that (on a "learn from failure" approach). The game encourages efficiency, and the players come to expect it. So while there's nothing inherently wrong with learning to do Kuva Siphons by failing first, it doesn't fit in Warframe. The difference will be (and, based on anecdotal evidence in this thread, is) jarring to players who encounter it for the first time, and in the end, it will be less fun. Messing with player expectations is generally not a good thing (outside of story elements), and players in Warframe don't expect failure. So all the bosses in WF arent designed as the game intends them to be? All (well most) of those are "figure it out or fail/retry" encounters if you arent relying on the collected info of other players. So trial and error fits very well into WF since players have gone through it with such encounters to collect that info for other to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)The Neko Otaku Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Lotus literally says target the cloulds, vouces lines were added a year ago to help people with siphon are people deaf and unable to read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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