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Lich/Sis Feedback on a range of issues


(PSN)AbBaNdOn_
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I've ramped up my Lich/Sis hunting now that im done with Steel Path.   I have come across alot of situations during the process I would like to talk about.

  1.  Stab/ No Stab - Aggro mechanics
  2.  Lich/Sis Slumping animation
  3.  Sisters and Hounds
  4.  Final Confrontations
  5.  Oull/Ultimatums
  6.  Murmur nodes
  7.  Helping

Ok now for the long versions... 

1.  Stab vs No Stab. The most efficient way to hunt Lich is to unlock 2 of your murmurs and use an Oull as the third.  This can all be done on the first murmur planet.   This relys on NOT stabbing your lich until you have those first 2 murmurs.   Understandably this annoys some people.  They dont get the murmur bonus that comes from stabbing a lich.   Making a Lich run away "can" shut off the flow of more thralls/other peoples lichs.   

I guess the aggro bar isnt really an issue for this.  Its just about people wanting to have that chance to get the whole sequence right on 1st stab.  I think an easy solution is to make fleeing liches grant like a normal thrall amount of murmur,  while at the same time making sure a fleeing lich doesnt shut off the flow of more thralls/other liches.  In Middle-Earth: Shadow of...  you had 3 options on taking down an Orc...  Kill, Convert, or SHAME.   Now 2 of those decisions were moved to the final showdown.   I think there should also be a decision phase in the murmur nodes....    When you down a lich in murmur nodes you should interact with your Lich and then get presented with two options....  Attempt Stab or Shame.   Shaming would just make the lich run away, but would also grant a thralls worth of murmur or a full lich stabs worth.   But this would let players get rid of the lich right off the bat instead of standing around and downing it three times.    Downing it 3 times still needs to be an option because some people dont even bother fighting their lich.  

But I think this would make all sides happy.    I think on a deeper level part of the problem between stab and no stab people are the mission types of murmur nodes.   Stabby people feel like they run out of "good" missions to fight on.  I definately sympathize with that...  I hate spy/rescue/intercept..  Otherwise I dont understand their impatience.   I am a non stabber and I see plenty of other non stabbers and I earn murmurs just fine!!!  Its still waaay faster than before...  even if I join mid mission or lich/thralls stop appearing..     Also new flash...  I see plenty of people stab their lich and the lich never disapears off the map and 100% blocks more thralls/liches.   

2. Slump Animation The animation for lichs going down is annoying and problematic.  They take a few steps back before dropping to knees.  This makes them back into wall, through terrain, off cliffs...  I knocked mine off a cliff last night and I saw it teleport back onto solid terrain so it looks like some work has gone into it.   But sometimes people stab liches and they never disappear and im wondering if this has anything to do with it?   If anything make lichs stumble a couple of steps forward...toward us.. 

3. Sisters and Hounds...... I am seeing really bad gameplay here.   Hounds = thralls....   But when you down a Sister she commands her Hound to explode......   Do we get screwed out of that murmur???   What I see in murmur nodes and final confrontations is that people 100% ignore the hounds and go straight for the Sister.   Do exploded hounds give murmurs/parts?  If they do not then I think you need to add "guard rails".  Make a Lich invincible as long as her hound is around.  FORCING *cough* teaching *cough* people to take out the Hounds 1st.  Now in the final confrontation this isnt about murmurs but Hound parts.  Im sure all sorts of e-peen guys will come in and say they have a bazillion hound parts because they run sisters so much.... good for you.   Not killing dogs and stabbing them takes away a chance at dog parts.   I realize 99% of people will just use the hounds they get of lich.  But some people maybe just me wanna make our own custom Hound out of parts....  

Speaking of.... we should have NEVER been given full entire hounds after every sister.  We should have only ever gotten Hound parts as a reward.  Is there any word on when we can delete hounds directly from the foundry???  I've already mastered the 3 hounds and letting the rest clog up my foundry so I can make a vid of the problem...  

I guess on this point I could be wrong and would love to be corrected.   If a Sister explodes her hound do we get murmurs?  Do you have to kill hounds during final confrontation to have a shot at parts??  Because I roll with various amounts of people and get various amounts of parts at the end.  Never 4 parts for 4 sisters.... 

I guess I will also throw this out there......  Hound parts = precept mods....  but you have to waste mod slots on equipping the precepts.   How about making those precepts INNATE to the parts.  So if you want your hound to have certain precepts you have to use certain parts.   Letting it have those precepts without wasting the mod slots on them??  I mastered the hounds asap and deleted em.  I think I have the parts to make a cool custom hound.  Im probably not gonna use all the parts with the best precepts.... so on one hand im glad I get to build the kind of hound I want,  on the other Im kinda mad I have to waste mod slots on precepts, even if I can equip any of them.  Guess I'll have more opinions about this after I really build up my perfect hound.   

4. Confrontations....  two very annoying things during this part of Lich/Sister process....   First on PS4 loading in to Railjack confrontations take forever.   If anyone joins right as your about to enter the ship they may make it into the game... but their lich never shows up.   Second is the biggest and most annoying issue...   getting near a Lich/Sister triggers an introduction cut screen.... but people are using wukong/nezha to get to the next Lich fight asap meaning everyone else is trying to navigate through the ship and constantly have custscenes interrupting us.   Please for the love of platinum turn off those intro cutscenes.  They dont add anything relevant to the mission.  

On the other hand you could take a negative and turn it into a positive.  When the #$^$%& people who like to rush reach a Lich/Sister and trigger the cutscene......BOOOOOOM  trigger a hero moment of all squadmates standing in the doorway about to crush this lich (make it unskippable).   But when one player reaches that tile ALL players get warped to that tile...  That would a positive thing..as far as interruptions go...     (The hero walk during Ropalolyst and ripping chunks out of exploiter are my moments in warframe normal missions.  I wish mission extractions had awesome moment like that. )

5. Oull/Ultimatum.  These do not drop enough.... especially ultimatums.   The worst bottleneck in the Lich/Sister process right now is aggression.  Failing a stab... ready to test your next sequence..... but having to grind missions just for the sake of pissing off your lich to make him show up.    Besides leveling up your Lich/Sis this is the 2nd biggest reason people want to be efficient and do not stab their lich until they have 2 murmurs back at Lv1.   They are trying to save the time of having to grind murmurs for no other reason than making the lich show up.   Lv 1 the grind is needed.  Lv2 ok why not finish out your last murmur and maybe not use your oull or use it for a mod you dont have alot of.  But Lv3+ lichs your over it and just want to get the sequence right.    Ultimatums would be great for that but they are ONE use and they are very rare drop.  Basically I save them for Lv4 when im 100% and then only if I have extra or the Lich has something I really want..  

I guess its a matter of luck and or desperation as to how much you use Oull.  I have been getting very lucky at getting sequence at Lv3 or below lately so im burning up my oull mods pretty quick.   These should be like 20-25% drop off any lich stab or non stab(3 downs).  Ultimatums should be like 33% on failed stabs....  and drop like 2-3 at a time. (like mod charges)

If you tweaked the game I think you could do away with ultimatums all together....  The higher the level of your lich....the more aggro he is/gains...  1-2 = normal,  3 = x2,  4-5 = x3 ???  In the current process you shoud be DONE murmur farming halfway into 3 if you make it that farm.  

6. Murmur Nodes...  two points to make here.... herding players into a tiny corridor of planets to run murmur nodes on was a good idea.  In some ways it helps.   For me personally I miss the freedom and variety of the old murmur nodes (granted there were no sisters back then and you need to divide things).   What I miss the most is deciding when to move on or I guess more accurately would be to say deciding which nodes/mission types to skip.    Now it feel likes there is less choice.   I have to farm Level 1 for the first 2 murmurs which means doing mission types I dont wanna do.   For me I do the crappy missions first so there is less chance of offending whiny cryaby noobs when I dont stab my lich.  Then when I make my 1st stab and I fail I get forced to 2nd planet even though I still had a bunch of good nodes left back on the first.... 

If "corridors" help create squads then imagine what a single node per level would do.....   If everyone was forced into defense or intercept or survival.   To compensate, each week or day the murmur node for Lich/Sis for Level 1-5 would move to a random spot on star chart.  Like the only Sister Lv1 node could be Lua - Stoffler for the whole day, the next It could be Ceres - Seimeni and the next Void - Mot.   But everyone with the same level of Lich/Sis would be forced into the same node. So it should be full squads every time.  BUT we also get variety and hopefully you exclude all junk nodes from hosting murmurs.   No capture/spy/rescue etc.   You just run that same node until you succeed or fail at stabbing your lich.  (sending u to final fight or onto the next level of lich/sis murmur)

Well that kinda bled into my second point I was going to make about junk nodes.   Show the stats on which nodes at each level of murmur nodes get run.   Why is spy in rotation??  Sure some people run junk nodes.  But the vast majority of people ???  make every murmur node worthwhile ffs.....  you have alot of other modes that change the default mission type on nodes like nightmares, syndicates, invasions.   There is NO reason a spy node in normal star chart cant become exterminate when its a murmur node...

7. Helping...this has inda taken a hit in the new Lich/Sis system...   I love the difficulty of murmur nodes....  Not to easy and not to hard...  just fun...  I loved to help people murmur farm in the old system even when I didnt have a lich.   Even with the new "corridors" herding people into the same murmur nodes I still see endless crys for help in recruit chat.  But now I figure why bother... randoms will probably show up anyways to run with them.  But worst of all is that before you could help people all the way to the end until they had kill/capped their lich.   Now you get RJ blocked.  If you dont have a Lich/Sis ready for confrontation you cant do the RJ phase....  That happened to me the other day.. I knew it would... but I was helping a newb with a Lv4-5 Lich and he finally got the sequence and I was like cya... good luck with your nightmare lich lol.  

Also is helping on sister side stupid??   If I dont have a sister after me im not gonna generate more thralls am i???  Lich side I dont think thats a problem since thralls just spawn... but sister thralls are the hounds...  no sister..no hounds...

Honestly I really hate this new grouped up Final Confrontation.  You made Lich/Sis so OP some people NEED squads of people to help take them down.   You get more rewards the more people you have?? (oull/ultimatums/hound parts???).  Doesnt feel like personal nemisis anymore...    Confrontations need to be open to ALL players.   4 lich = more rewards need to GO.  

 

Those are the issues impacting me when I do this content.  Overall I think its great though.  Love the faster process.  Love maxing out my guns and collecting ephemera.   Tenet melee.... still major wtf....  (super pissed we didnt get Tenet Ferrox)

infested liches = Nightmares ??  Monstrosities?  Big Zits? 

 

 

 

 

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Sorry for your frustration, but most of this isn't happening. 

Sisters aren't for new players exactly, so this is for people that have had some experience and time in the game already. We already know how to utilize the game's mechanics to fight the sister with ease. You should try asking for advice instead of blaming the sister fight. 

And this content is probably meant to not be soloed so easily. Having teammates is a part of the experience and if you're having trouble you can ask for help on recruit chat. 

If you do liches with public matches then you take responsibility for people stabbing or not stabbing their lich. Find a team to communicate with or stop trying to tell other people how to play. Buy extra Oull mods or farm them.

"Only killing mechanized hounds in nodes occupied by the player's Sister will further anger the Sister and increase the meter. Occupied node mission completion and killing mechanized hounds in different Sister nodes (via taxi) will not increase the Sister's anger, although the latter will still progress the murmur."

There's your answer for that.

And modding is a part of the game.....you have to mod every pet and companion for every ability. This is nothing new....

Spy is in rotation because it's a mission in the game like all the others. As I said before, this isn't for new and inexperienced players so you should know how to do a spy mission.

Edit: one more excerpt: 

"The Hounds that accompany the Sisters of Parvos have each of their parts randomly selected on creation of the Sister, and the player will inherit their Hound upon vanquishing their controlling Sister. Vanquished Sisters are also guaranteed to drop one random Hound component blueprint, which can be assembled with Legs' assistance."

Edited by (PSN)Madurai-Prime
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A lot of that boils down to the choice of whether to solo or PUG a lich/sister.  Points 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7 at least center around that choice for sure.  And it is very clear OP that you favor PUG and your perspective is entirely about making that better.  Fair enough there, to each his own.

I solo these things and if you implemented some of your suggestions like point 6 then I'd stop playing this content.  From my perspective these things are stupidly easy... I use them to level frames and we don't even have the forma change yet.  They made the murmur grind so much quicker that you don't need the boost from some rando's lich appearing any more.  I honestly don't understand why you would want to PUG at this point unless you were a player so under geared that you couldn't handle level 50 enemies (sortie #1). 

A PUG group is no help in the effort (since there isn't any real effort) and it opens the door to a whole list (your list) of problems.

Also this just has to be explicitly stated... no capture or rescue or spy?  F&*K that idea!  Those are the only nodes I LIKE!  You really need to consider that other people play the game differently.

Edited by (PSN)Agent_CHAR
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7 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Making a Lich run away "can" shut off the flow of more thralls/other peoples lichs

This just isn't true. In my own experiance not stabbing lich doesnt do anything, proces continues normally after that. 

7 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Its just about people wanting to have that chance to get the whole sequence right on 1st stab.

Also this isnt true either. It's best that you start stabbing once you uncover first requiem. Having 2 requiems uncovered is still a slim chance to guess the right order from first try. Its more probable you will fail than guess it. 

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9 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Its just about people wanting to have that chance to get the whole sequence right on 1st stab

I have Stabbed a Lich got all 3 mods right without knowing any mods or using Oull

9 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

The worst bottleneck in the Lich/Sister process right now is aggression

I agree, Kuva Lich Spawning is too slow.

9 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

For me I do the crappy missions first so there is less chance of offending whiny cryaby noobs when I dont stab my lich. 

 I stopped reading after that. Calling people names for not doing things the way YOU want to do them isn't good feedback 

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20 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 You should try asking for advice instead of blaming the sister fight. 

What am i blaming on them??

20 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And this content is probably meant to not be soloed so easily. Having teammates is a part of the experience and if you're having trouble you can ask for help on recruit chat. 

What makes you think im having trouble and need help ? 

20 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you do liches with public matches then you take responsibility for people stabbing or not stabbing their lich. Find a team to communicate with or stop trying to tell other people how to play. 

I dont tell anyone to stab or not stab.   I see it brought up on the forums all the time.  Im saying I understand some of the pro stabber frustration.  I think DE could help the situation by making liches who run still drop some amount of murmur and not mess with future thrall/lich spawns.  Then I think both sides could get along fine.   Like I said, it would be cool if you could even speed up making the lich run away with like a Humiliate option instead of having to down him 3 times.  (but you also can not remove downing 3 times because some people do not fight them at all)

---------------------------

My questions about the hounds are....

-If a sister blows up a hound do you get the thrall murmur?   Because people are ignoring hounds and going straight to lich.

-Do you have to kill hounds BEFORE killing sister in final confrontations in order to roll a hound part at end of fight?   Because again... people are ignoring hounds and going straight for Lich.  

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19 hours ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

A lot of that boils down to the choice of whether to solo or PUG a lich/sister.  Points 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7 at least center around that choice for sure.  And it is very clear OP that you favor PUG and your perspective is entirely about making that better.  Fair enough there, to each his own.

I'd be totally fine solo.  Your right tho,  I guess I do favor PUGS and having randoms around.   For ME, more people = more thralls/more enemies/more req relics/more affinity (for focus farming).

I also tried to explain some ways DE are forcing us into groups which is bad.  Basically hounds parts and or oull/ultimatum drops.  Sure you can fight your lich solo at the end but if you have the chance at more rewards in a group?  

20 hours ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

I solo these things and if you implemented some of your suggestions like point 6 then I'd stop playing this content. 

Also this just has to be explicitly stated... no capture or rescue or spy?  F&*K that idea!  Those are the only nodes I LIKE!  You really need to consider that other people play the game differently.

Your are right again.  I am partial to PUGing murmur nodes.   I hate captures because they are so short,  most of the time if I join one in progress the host is already taking down the target, and we only get a few murmurs on the way to the exit.  Rescue/spy is more about randoms setting of the alarms.  

You said I need to consider other people..   if only 5% of people do Spy murmurs and 95% avoid them like the plague... who are the ones being incosiderate of others??   Hey and I will happily concede if the numbers and data show otherwise.   But I did call on DE to show that data/info!!

You didnt say otherwise but just to be clear I am ONLY talking about murmur nodes.  Not removing those nodes from the whole game.  (I would happily love to see Spy void fissures eat dirt tho also)

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15 hours ago, RistN said:

This just isn't true. In my own experiance not stabbing lich doesnt do anything, proces continues normally after that. 

Also this isnt true either. It's best that you start stabbing once you uncover first requiem. Having 2 requiems uncovered is still a slim chance to guess the right order from first try. Its more probable you will fail than guess it. 

Thats why "can" was in qoutes.   I not stab my lich ALOT and usually have no problems,  but I have seen it shut off the flow sometimes.   I see Lich bug out after being stabbed and refuse to leave alot more...  

Having 0% chance at something is better than having more??  Wow that is one perspective I guess.   As I wrote this and you responded yesterday I successfully stabbed my lich with a 59% gun and ephemera at Lv1 lol.  

2 murmur and an Oull is a 1/6 chance at being right on first try...   

Im not saying either way is better or people should only do things one way.   According to forums people are very annoyed with Non stabbers.   I get the fact they feel like they are missing out on murmurs.   I suggested several things DE could do to alleviate the situation. 

 

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Ok I went back and read the patch notes on Sisters.....

  • Oull are 25% drop from a successful stab (NOT SHARED)
  • Ultimatum are 25% Drop from kill/convert (NOT SHARED)

Those were two things I thought might be forcing grouped play so I am happy to see that.  I feel better about going solo.

  • Hound parts is very unclear....They said once you take down your Sis you get her weapon and hound,  but you also have a shot at a hound part(didnt give %).   So maybe this is only if you KILL and not convert.  Also this IS very much shared...    But the important part is that it looks like extra parts have nothing to do with killing the hound in confrontations......    The only reason to run group confrontation is if you are scared or if you want extra dog parts...  (which for me I already have a ton of)

---------

This takes alot of stress out of things.   BUT.... Oull should be like 33% drop...   Ultimate should be like 50%.   Ultimatums are perfect for when u fail a stab and then 100% know the sequence.  

==================

Still concerned with Hound explosions and murmur.

Aggro..

But I guess my biggest issue now is not being able to help in final confrontations if you do not have a Bro/Sis.   According to my research.... a non Sis player would prevent the squad at a chance of a hound part and a non Sis player would be able to get hound parts.   So is that a big enough deal to prevent non Sister people from doing final confrontations???  I would say no!! Let us in!!   Bother confrontations have ZERO reason to prevent non lich people from doing final confrontations....  Very mixed signals about getting and giving help from DE...   

Edited by (PSN)AbBaNdOn_
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3 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

 I hate captures because they are so short,  most of the time if I join one in progress the host is already taking down the target, and we only get a few murmurs on the way to the exit.  Rescue/spy is more about randoms setting of the alarms.

Again, solo solves those issues.  I stroll through my captures and rescues at the same pace I would an exterminate.

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

if only 5% of people do Spy murmurs and 95% avoid them like the plague... who are the ones being incosiderate of others?

Solo nodes and coop nodes can peacefully coexist is what I'm saying.  If you want to play a defense in a PUG then that should be available to you.  If I want to solo a spy how does that impact you?  Short answer is it doesn't.

I get your point you made originally that a player can run out of missions that they prefer to play.  I have certainly been forced onto nodes that I wouldn't normally run by a lich that refused to make an appearance.  All DE needs to do to address that is never clear a node.  I should be able to run the same exterminate 5 times if I want and you should be able to run the same defense node as much as you want.  They would need to add in some auto-level up mechanic though so people didn't sit on level 1 liches for the entire time.  Something tied to the anger meter probably like if the meter ever hits max then a level up happens.  It could be that simple.

But this is a problem we have in other areas of the game that are a lot older and DE has never done anything to fix the problem in those.  Mainly I'm referring to void fissures and the fact that some players want short/fast things like captures while other want long endless survivals.  Both mission archetypes should be available at all times at all level fissure levels.  But they aren't.  I look at the list of fissures up and frequently say "nope not running any now, nothing I like up".  Day/night cycles on PoE... I could go on all sorts of tangents about DE creating barriers to play the content you want to play when you want to play it and how that is bad player experience.  I don't need liches to get added to that list of content.

 

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11 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

2 murmur and an Oull is a 1/6 chance at being right on first try...   

Well thats my point. Thats a pretty slim chance and idk why would anyone think he will get it right first time when odds say they are more likely to fail.Makes no sense.

Real reason why people dont stab in 99. 9% of cases is that they didn't uncover their first requim yet. 

Also I made successful stabs with  one and even with none requiem uncovered, but that just ment I was lucky, not that it is a viable way to play that mode. 

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20 hours ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

All DE needs to do to address that is never clear a node.  I should be able to run the same exterminate 5 times if I want and you

Great idea!! This works for all parties!!!

I dont know why you locked it down to one planet and an auto level system to get to next level lich/murmur...   You could just farm Lv1 nodes however many times you want until you stab lich.  Then that planet shuts off like now and your kicked to the next one where you can play nodes as much as you want.   (maybe you were trying to incorporate my idea for single murmur nodes and moving them around every day/week for variety??)

-----

I like that they herded people into the same 5 bro/sis planets based on lich level.   I just wanna see more vareity.  I dont care how they do it.   

  • change the 5 planets each day/week
  • only use 5 specific nodes and change em every day/week (admittedly bad for people who get a node they dont like)
  • Use one planet for bro/sis and just advance through the lich levels on that planet, but the planets change every day/week

It makes sense for kuva lich to only be on grineer map and sisters to only be on corpus map.  But in the future and for variety I am totally fine with Bro/Sis appearing on ANY planet.   Maybe our Bro/Sis is flexing not just on us but also on the other factions lol.  

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2 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

You could just farm Lv1 nodes however many times you want until you stab lich.

What will happen is people will murmur farm a level 1lich until all three words are known and only then start stabbing.  The number of liches that never advance to level 2 will go way up and seeing a level 5 lich will just never happen.  Those are things I'd like to avoid since this is supposed to be high-level, end game-ish type of content.  Liches should reach level 5 (sometimes) and some of the progression should be done at levels higher than 1.

Right now I really like the cadence of the sisters.  Their structure is very rigid almost always, with only the very rare deviation.  Two missions gets me a word known.  She often spawns in that 2nd but I send her away so that she will re-show on the 3rd mission and then I stab with a known word.  Level up, move to the next planet and repeat.  Three of the last four I've done were finished in two stabs thanks to oull.  The liches I like a lot less.  DE has fixed the murmur side of things to match the sisters well enough (not perfectly), but the liches are much more random on whether or not they actually show up.  That aspect of liches needs some love from DE.

EDIT - Oh and to be clear a level up should always happen on a stab like it does now.  I'm suggesting that a level up should also unavoidably happen if you don't stab the lich/sister.  The trigger of how that happens could be a number of different things.  Connecting it to the anger meter is only one possibility, one that I like because it's simple.

Edited by (PSN)Agent_CHAR
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  • What if Lv4 Lich added +5%  onto the weapon bonus
  • What if Lv5 Lich added +10%  onto the weapon bonus  

Cap is still 60%.   But essentally if you let your Lich reach the higher difficulties it actually served a purpose??   For example I roll a Lich with 40% fire kuva grattler.   If I let that Lich hit Lv5 and I take him down...  The grattler would become  50% fire kuva grattler. 

 

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