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Why do we have standing limit at max rank?


Kaichi16
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Okay, i understand time limits. it's a cheap way to make content last longer, but it's acceptable. 

Now, why do we have standing limits at max ranks? Syndicates and such, once you reach max rank, you shouldn't have a limit on how much you can gain. (not per day)

like, at max rank, you can get at most 135k standing. WHY? lots of stuff cost over 100k. You can't, for example, gather like... 300k(over the days) and buy 3 good mods to sell. you have to gather standing, buy thing, gather standing, buy thing. 

maybe i'm not expressing myself correctly...

Pointless things you shouldn't do in Warframe even if it's possible | Fandom

this. this 132k limit. why? weapons cost 100k and they sell pretty well in market. why cant i just get some standing, wait till someone wants to buy a weapon and just pick it once i need it?

AGAIN, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT DAILY LIMIT. I'M TALKING ABOUT TOTAL LIMIT. it's exactly like having a limit on how much credits you can have.

Edit1: Would increasing the standing cap at least to 300k be that impactful? would it break the game?

Edit2: My point was never about getting all syndicates(even tho i'd love to). all syndicate rewards can be easily traded through ingame chat with other players. but yeah, increase the negative cap as well, it really doesn't matter. 

I DO understand getting relics would be easier, but it already is. For those who don't know, run Ukko(literally one relic per minute) in Void for relics Lith, Meso and Neo and Xini - Eris or Apollo - Lua for Axi relics. i heard people also use hieracon for axi relics. almost any mission rewards relics. "oh but those who wanna get stuff in day 1 will abuse this system" yeah, so what? With this, we wouldn't have people putting stupid high prices for new stuff. and also, why does it matter if someone gets stuff in day one? again: OBTAINING RELICS IS NOT HARD. OBTAINING THE PARTS YOU WANT IS THE LONG PART.

Also Simaris shop doesn't have relic packs and everything is expensive, over 75k standing. Any explanation why this needs a cap?

Think like this: you only can get up to 1.5k credits. then you max rank a certain mod. now you're out of credits and you can not obtain more credits today. but there are still mods you need to rank up. 

 

btw, this "oh you only can't support rival syndicates" system is as impactful as choices in the war within quest. pretty lame, imo. if you're supposed to take it seriously, then we need more consequences other than "random eximus appears to kill you"(even new players can easily deal with 84% of those squads, maybe new loka is a bit harder?).

Edited by Kaichi16
people aren't understanding my point. again.
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Ya' know, that's an excellent question. It serves as a segway to a rather odd point. Did you know that Plague Star's reward system has the highest standing cap in the game? Almost 500k. The highest reputation cap for anything in the game, not even syndicate caps reach that high. I wouldn't be too distraught if DE were to tweak the total limit at max rank for every syndicate. Less restrictions means more flexibility, and for those who have yet to farm every single syndicate item, this would be decent QoL. Why disagree? It's not like we already have a hundred different time-gates already...

Edited by (PSN)IndianChiefJeff
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14 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

Why do we have standing limit at max rank?

Because if you had no Cap you could stack on reputation with one Syndicate then rank another that is opposed to it without going negative.

This also forces players to periodically spend their rep tho many players never cap out as they often purchase mods/weapons from the Syndicates to sell.

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

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1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because if you had no Cap you could stack on reputation with one Syndicate then rank another that is opposed to it without going negative.

is this really that impactful to the game? you already can trade with other players and get anything without spending a single plat. 

2 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

but we'd still need to open those relics. we have missions like ukko(=1 relic per minute). also, is it bad that people would have access to content faster? doesn't DE want us to experiment new content? do we really need a long boring farm for everything?

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18 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

do we really need a long boring farm for everything?

That's the core of every f2p game out there. Small and big inconveniences are created on purpose, so that solutions to those inconveniences can be sold for money.

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28 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Because if you had no Cap you could stack on reputation with one Syndicate then rank another that is opposed to it without going negative.

This also forces players to periodically spend their rep tho many players never cap out as they often purchase mods/weapons from the Syndicates to sell.

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

mostly this

 

withhout that i would have all syndicate by now

 

You can still achieve this by farmind medaillon though

 

 

Edited by Tsoe
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19 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

is this really that impactful to the game? you already can trade with other players and get anything without spending a single plat. 

In terms of meaningful choice, they don't want you to have positive relationship on all six syndicates. Subjectively, since it's inception, they wanted this to be a personal choice; objectively, they don't want you to go all solo into it.

19 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

but we'd still need to open those relics. we have missions like ukko(=1 relic per minute).

You can have them in your inventory forever and comeback to do them anytime you want, that's the beauty of the relics.

19 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

also, is it bad that people would have access to content faster? doesn't DE want us to experiment new content? do we really need a long boring farm for everything?

For a live service game, yes, they want to have a good, consistent number of daily-login players. You'll get to experiment with it; eventually for new players, very quickly for players that are well off.

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7 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

For a live service game, yes, they want to have a good, consistent number of daily-login players. You'll get to experiment with it; eventually for new players, very quickly for players that are well off.

isnt that a cheap way to make players come back every day? i mean... if you design a consistent good gameplay with good rewards, people will come back every day because they want to experience such stuff, not because they're "kinda forced" to come back. i believe those time gatings work for mmorpgs, warframe is a (mostly) single player shooter.

warframe already has lots of content, changing this wouldn't affect daily logins.

also, it's a game where you get loadout slots as rewards when ranking up your mastery instead of warframe slots/weapon slots, so we already have to pay money.

free games usually get money from cosmetics or small QoL, but in warframe you're almost forced to pay unless you only want to use 1 warframe and 2 weapons for your whole gameplay.

this change, this small change would make players stop coming every day? if not remove limits, at least give us a bigger limit, like plague star

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32 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

isnt that a cheap way to make players come back every day? i mean... if you design a consistent good gameplay with good rewards, people will come back every day because they want to experience such stuff, not because they're "kinda forced" to come back. i believe those time gatings work for mmorpgs, warframe is a (mostly) single player shooter.

To new and medium players that has interest, they'll comeback; it's the well-off players that falls off of that. When players are at a state where they got everything they wanted if not everything, that consistent good gameplay with good rewards starts fading, not in a bad way. It's more like "I spent my time on that content, I cashed out on the 'fun' and the rewards it has to offer. Time to shelf it and move on to the next." That list of things you want to do starts becoming shorter and shorter, eventually they're either logging for a short time or there's a pattern where they're only on few times a month. The former is okay it means you can put your energy and time somewhere else, the latter is not desirable.

36 minutes ago, Kaichi16 said:

warframe already has lots of content, changing this wouldn't affect daily logins.

In general limiting the speed of getting content is necessary for those daily logins. In the case of those six syndicates, their main reason is they don't want you to be that well off that. It affecting logins is more of a byproduct.

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6 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

This ^

When new primes come out I just buy relic packs and crack em until I get the new stuff, which sometimes takes a week or two if RNG doesn't favor me on the cracking. I don't drive myself nuts playing certain missions over and over for specific relic drops. Now granted I do usually have a decent amount of medallions to turn in by the next time a new prime drops, but it still slows me down. I'm patient, so it's fine. Impatient people that have to dress up a shiny new prime frame on the very first day can buy them outright or go nuts with the farming, and that's ok.

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47 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

When new primes come out I just buy relic packs and crack em until I get the new stuff, which sometimes takes a week or two if RNG doesn't favor me on the cracking. I don't drive myself nuts playing certain missions over and over for specific relic drops. Now granted I do usually have a decent amount of medallions to turn in by the next time a new prime drops, but it still slows me down. I'm patient, so it's fine. Impatient people that have to dress up a shiny new prime frame on the very first day can buy them outright or go nuts with the farming, and that's ok.

i get it, relics would be easier to obtain, but obtaining relics is the easiest part. cracking them is the long RNG part. Ukko - Void has all relics lith ~ neo, and you can get axi ones easily doing xini - eris(slow) or that apollo - lua. again i ask, would increasing the limit on standing (not only for syndicates, but simaris and open worlds) be so game breaking? 

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20 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

maybe i'm not expressing myself correctly...

I get what you mean...

You want to Horde your Standing until it reaches 6 Billion....

Honestly.... I want that too....

19 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

 

There is also the fact that many players keep their reputation for when new Primes come out to purchase Relic packs and if you had millions of rap in stock you could spend it all on relic packs and not have to go through the normal grind of obtaining them.

Oh The Horror !!! 😱...... 🤨 ?

19 hours ago, NekroArts said:

In terms of meaningful choice, they don't want you to have positive relationship on all six syndicates. Subjectively, since it's inception, they wanted this to be a personal choice; objectively, they don't want you to go all solo into it.

Fair Enough but what does that have to do with The  Max Cap ?

18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Of course.  But the corrolary is medallions would be pointless without a standing cap.

Good.... I never liked those anyway... 😤

 

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4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Fair Enough but what does that have to do with The  Max Cap ?

It's like what BiancaRoughfin said, you'll be able to get high reputation with one syndicate and be able to ranks their enemies without the former going negative.

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Going to have to agree with the other sensible people in this thread:

Max cap is to prevent you from buying the expensive things more than one at a time. It's a literal block to you doing that without going and handing over some more Medallions.

You can stockpile medallions, but you must use them, you can't just 'forget' to take off your Sigil for a month or two and suddenly have enough standing to buy forty Syndicate weapons and trade them to new players.

It forces you to engage with the Syndicate Missions, in order to get those medallions.

Why? Who really knows why, but the answer appears to be 'because they want you to grind'.

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On 2021-10-19 at 11:53 AM, Kaichi16 said:

Would increasing the standing cap at least to 300k be that impactful? would it break the game?

The impact of a raised cap will be more beneficial from a new player perspective. Syndicate farming differs drastically depending on how far you've progressed through the game. Newer players have more incentives to rank up when compared to experienced players, cosmetics are more compelling after all. The more experienced players typically invest in relic packs whenever new Price Accesses come along, they also try to sell augment mods & the occasional weapon, but the prior activity takes precedence over the latter. The only real solution to this debacle would be a potential price increase to relic packs, but that's something I believe these folks are trying to avoid. It doesn't matter to me though, as I'm still trying to get all I can from each syndicate without dropping too much plat, even as an MR 28 duderino. I've already spent several years trying to advocate for more syndicate cosmetics for just about everything, from K-Drives & weapons to Operators & Railjacks. An increased cap would aid greatly in my fashioning efforts should the time ever come.

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10 hours ago, NekroArts said:

It's like what BiancaRoughfin said, you'll be able to get high reputation with one syndicate and be able to ranks their enemies without the former going negative.

No you wouldn't....

If you Rank One Up... The others go down..... Increasing The Max Cap had absolutely Zero Affect on that as far as I can tell 🤔..... All it means is the Syndicates that hate you will hate you even more now....

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

Max cap is to prevent you from buying the expensive things more than one at a time. It's a literal block to you doing that without going and handing over some more Medallions

But if the medallions allow you to bypass that then what's the point ? People are already doing this and have done so for as long as I can remember....

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

You can stockpile medallions, but you must use them, you can't just 'forget' to take off your Sigil for a month or two and suddenly have enough standing to buy forty Syndicate weapons and trade them to new players

Except you can't do that... All Syndicate Weapons are MR 12.... So what exactly are you going to do with 40 Vaykor Heks ? 🤔

And again... The Medallions would allow you to do this Anyway....

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

It forces you to engage with the Syndicate Missions, in order to get those medallions

And that's a good thing ? 🤨

4 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

The more experienced players typically invest in relic packs whenever new Price Accesses come along, they also try to sell augment mods & the occasional weapon, but the prior activity takes precedence over the latter.

I figured as much.... It's notoriously Tricky trying to Sell Syndicate Stuff for platinum barring the Major Exceptions (Despoil, Infiltrate, Scattered justice Etc)...

4 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

as I'm still trying to get all I can from each syndicate without dropping too much plat, even as an MR 28 duderino.

Do what I do....

Skip The Plat and go for Full on Syndicate Exchanges....

I got all the Augments this way... Weapons too.... I didn't care if Vaykor Hek is worth more than Secura Penta...  If they wanted it they would have to trade for it Fair and Square..... Assuming you have the patience for this.... It's not exactly Fast and it's the one area where warframe.market offers no help what's so ever.

 

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6 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

The impact of a raised cap will be more beneficial from a new player perspective. Syndicate farming differs drastically depending on how far you've progressed through the game. Newer players have more incentives to rank up when compared to experienced players, cosmetics are more compelling after all. The more experienced players typically invest in relic packs whenever new Price Accesses come along, they also try to sell augment mods & the occasional weapon, but the prior activity takes precedence over the latter. The only real solution to this debacle would be a potential price increase to relic packs, but that's something I believe these folks are trying to avoid. It doesn't matter to me though, as I'm still trying to get all I can from each syndicate without dropping too much plat, even as an MR 28 duderino. I've already spent several years trying to advocate for more syndicate cosmetics for just about everything, from K-Drives & weapons to Operators & Railjacks. An increased cap would aid greatly in my fashioning efforts should the time ever come.

i find it a bit stupid that the cap is 132k but max rank stuff cost 100k~125k... it costs ALL your standing. high costs should be put on one-time buyings, like cosmetics, but weapons, captura stuff, those things can be sold and you'll probably sell more than one.

and also, i'm talking about not only syndicates. SIMARIS. everything(good things) costs 75k~100k. THIS really needs a cap upgrade. open worlds are basically dead shops. buy everything once and bye bye.

i think i said before, but getting relics is the easiest and fastest part, i never spent standing on relic packs, as weapons can be sold for plat (and relics can be obtained easily and fast)

btw new players dont have max rank syndicates, as far as i know

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4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

No you wouldn't....

If you Rank One Up... The others go down..... Increasing The Max Cap had absolutely Zero Affect on that as far as I can tell 🤔..... All it means is the Syndicates that hate you will hate you even more now....

Going off from OPs theory of having a max cap of 300k standing, you absolutely can get all 6 into max rank. The rank of one only goes down when the amount subtracted is greater than the amount you have. Since it takes a total of 306,000 standing to get a rank -2 syndicate to rank 5, having 300k on 4 appropriate syndicates can easily be work with to get the two -2 ranked syndicates to rank 5 without dropping the max ranks of the first 4.

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15 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Going off from OPs theory of having a max cap of 300k standing, you absolutely can get all 6 into max rank. The rank of one only goes down when the amount subtracted is greater than the amount you have. Since it takes a total of 306,000 standing to get a rank -2 syndicate to rank 5, having 300k on 4 appropriate syndicates can easily be work with to get the two -2 ranked syndicates to rank 5 without dropping the max ranks of the first 4.

OP Wants the Max Cap Increased... That Includes the Max Negative Cap aswell.... You're just concocting a scenario just so you can disagree with OP....

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14 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

OP Wants the Max Cap Increased... That Includes the Max Negative Cap aswell.... You're just concocting a scenario just so you can disagree with OP....

Everything from the OP is in relation to the max rank. They have an issue with the cap of 132k because if they want to be prepare to sell weapons they have to use their own weapons slots as a bank rather than the syndicate itself.

Until they make another edit to verify that their suggestion also means the negative cap or they agree to apply that as part of their feedback, everything in the OP strongly suggest the cap at max rank.

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29 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Everything from the OP is in relation to the max rank. They have an issue with the cap of 132k because if they want to be prepare to sell weapons they have to use their own weapons slots as a bank rather than the syndicate itself.

Until they make another edit to verify that their suggestion also means the negative cap or they agree to apply that as part of their feedback, everything in the OP strongly suggest the cap at max rank.

Like I said.... You're just concocting Issues where there aren't any... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 Besides.... If someone wants to be Max Rank with all Syndicates... Let them...  it's already Possible to do 4 Anyway and it's not like those players are living it up.

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13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

But if the medallions allow you to bypass that then what's the point ?

I literally answered that in a point you read and responded to here:

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:
21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It forces you to engage with the Syndicate Missions, in order to get those medallions

And that's a good thing ? 🤨

And to that I say:

I didn't say it was. But it's the actual goal of the system.

The goal of putting these Syndicates in has never been a real purpose beyond 'A new part of the grind you have to engage with, extending play time and offering another way to gain rewards'.

DE's ultimate goal is always to extend engagement. If you recall so many of the changes over time to the game as a whole, it's all about engagement over time. Even the change to the Relic system in the first place was because DE saw players not engaging with the old Key system in the way they wanted them to be, going for long-runs when the player base overwhelmingly only played for short bursts. 20 minute game times was the limit to the normal players, so they reduced everything to be built around the single-mission or 20 minute game. Where a Survival to 20 minutes would get players 4 rolls of their Relics, for example, but would only likely net the player one or two Relics in return. So each game was shorter, but people would engage more over time because the grind was the same and the availability of the missions was more plentiful than prior.

It's the same with the Syndicate grind, every single Syndicate. The more types of grind, the more time you have to invest, and so every form of grind has its own Standing or its own Currency.

And in every Syndicate there is a cap, because it makes you buy things slower from scratch, not because it stops you from buying more than one at a time. You have to grind Resource A, and when your Daily cap of Resource A is filled, you then go grind Resource B, which can be traded for Resource A above the Daily cap.

However, you can only hit a maximum cap before you have to buy something, meaning that you can't spend your entire Stockpile of Resource B, you have to trade, buy, trade, buy, trade, buy in sequence.

And most importantly, the only place to get Resource B is in those specific missions that you have to take time out of your day to do. Either in addition to, or as a replacement for, some other aspect of your grind. So the only way you can stockpile Resource B is by doing more grind that isn't related to the other grind.

Which accomplishes DE's goal of more engagement over time.

You are having to play the game, you can't just go to one location and get all of the Standing resources at once, there is no 'loot cave' for Standing, because Standing has a cap, unlike loot.

I didn't say it's a good thing.

I'm saying it's fulfilling DE's actual goal.

All of these things it's literally blocking you from doing are genuinely to force you to engage with the specific parts of the grind, parts that DE have implemented so you have no other way to get the things they offer without engagement. Want to bypass your cap and buy multiple things at once? Best get on that Medallion grind, because that's the only way.

So whether we think it's a good thing or not is completely irrelevant, because if it's not Syndicates, DE will find the next thing they can use to extend player engagement over time.

(In a more sinister point of view, it's also teaching one of the key points of micro-transaction basics: get players spending their resources as they acquire them, not stockpile them. It means that whenever you release something that's higher value, a higher amount of them have to engage with the grind because so few of them have actually bothered to stockpile. If this is applied to Premium Currency, it means that players buy into that system more and more, because they are used to spending a little here and a little there from the other things the game offers. But DE wouldn't be engaged in any of that now... would they...?)

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9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I literally answered that in a point you read and responded to here:

And to that I say:

I didn't say it was. But it's the actual goal of the system.

The goal of putting these Syndicates in has never been a real purpose beyond 'A new part of the grind you have to engage with, extending play time and offering another way to gain rewards'.

DE's ultimate goal is always to extend engagement. If you recall so many of the changes over time to the game as a whole, it's all about engagement over time. Even the change to the Relic system in the first place was because DE saw players not engaging with the old Key system in the way they wanted them to be, going for long-runs when the player base overwhelmingly only played for short bursts. 20 minute game times was the limit to the normal players, so they reduced everything to be built around the single-mission or 20 minute game. Where a Survival to 20 minutes would get players 4 rolls of their Relics, for example, but would only likely net the player one or two Relics in return. So each game was shorter, but people would engage more over time because the grind was the same and the availability of the missions was more plentiful than prior.

It's the same with the Syndicate grind, every single Syndicate. The more types of grind, the more time you have to invest, and so every form of grind has its own Standing or its own Currency.

And in every Syndicate there is a cap, because it makes you buy things slower from scratch, not because it stops you from buying more than one at a time. You have to grind Resource A, and when your Daily cap of Resource A is filled, you then go grind Resource B, which can be traded for Resource A above the Daily cap.

However, you can only hit a maximum cap before you have to buy something, meaning that you can't spend your entire Stockpile of Resource B, you have to trade, buy, trade, buy, trade, buy in sequence.

And most importantly, the only place to get Resource B is in those specific missions that you have to take time out of your day to do. Either in addition to, or as a replacement for, some other aspect of your grind. So the only way you can stockpile Resource B is by doing more grind that isn't related to the other grind.

Which accomplishes DE's goal of more engagement over time.

You are having to play the game, you can't just go to one location and get all of the Standing resources at once, there is no 'loot cave' for Standing, because Standing has a cap, unlike loot.

I didn't say it's a good thing.

I'm saying it's fulfilling DE's actual goal.

All of these things it's literally blocking you from doing are genuinely to force you to engage with the specific parts of the grind, parts that DE have implemented so you have no other way to get the things they offer without engagement. Want to bypass your cap and buy multiple things at once? Best get on that Medallion grind, because that's the only way.

So whether we think it's a good thing or not is completely irrelevant, because if it's not Syndicates, DE will find the next thing they can use to extend player engagement over time.

(In a more sinister point of view, it's also teaching one of the key points of micro-transaction basics: get players spending their resources as they acquire them, not stockpile them. It means that whenever you release something that's higher value, a higher amount of them have to engage with the grind because so few of them have actually bothered to stockpile. If this is applied to Premium Currency, it means that players buy into that system more and more, because they are used to spending a little here and a little there from the other things the game offers. But DE wouldn't be engaged in any of that now... would they...?)

Wall Of Text 😱 !!!

 

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