Camera Tilting Torture

[Ginthus]

I generally do not have any issues with camera shake as it usually just does what it says, it moves the image in all directions without touching the cameras rotation. I tried to analyse why I just get sick from some of these camera movements made by certain guns recoil and it has all to do with rotation. I am going to use the roll, pitch and yaw to explain the movements that become problematic, see image below.

Figure 1. The yaw, pitch, and roll angles in the human head motion

I am not a doctor but if you can read this text and move your head I am certain that you can verify my statements to be true. Human eyes automatically adjust for roll, pitch and yaw so unless you are upside down or in zero g you wont have a problem knowing exactly which direction is up. As a result, the image you in your head is also not rotating. I know there is tons of education videos on the subject which explains this 100 times better than I tried, like the semicircular canals in your ear which is kinda like your rotation sensor.

It seems that almost all guns either zoom in/out and/or pitch the camera slightly, which is completely fine as its what every game does (even though this makes zero sense since we are in 3rd person). I would have thought that the pitch rotation would make me sick but it just doesn't affect me, maybe at some ridiculous levels of rotation. However there are some weapons that for some reason combines the pitch with yaw rotations, I think I saw one that did roll which is bordering insanity. Please refrain from ever artificially introducing this, PLEASE. On a side note, all these rotations are extremely unnatural and you would never experience your inner world rotating like this unless you are intoxicated, maybe.

So these roll and yaw rotations makes me go motion sick extremely fast and I just can't play with any weapon that features this effect. Yes I do know there are recoil reduction mods and I wish they straight up removed the angular motion from the camera. But if this was ever supposed to be a solution then I suggest removing colourblind support and add that as a mod instead as well.

I had to shelf my Prisma Angstrum because of the recoil rotation and when I newly acquired the Tenet Diplos and it is like the epitome of motion sickness for me. The camera tilts up and slightly left AND right depending on which of the guns are shooting. If this "recoil" is required for some weird balancing act then please at least remove the roll and yaw from them and all other weapons that feature this effect.

Thanks.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

This sounds like a 'you' problem. Do you have vertigo? I have bad motion sickness. I can jsut stand on the floating docks at the lake then see the world spin. Or sit in a kayak with small waves hitting it to notice my head tense up from the motion. Disable motion blur, max out your field of view, get rid of that feature that blurs the far stuff but keep things close in focus (forgot what that's called). Recoil doesn't do anything special. It just joggle the camera. If shaking your own camera makes you sick, there's something options you can alleviate the problem.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

This sounds like a 'you' problem. Do you have vertigo? I have bad motion sickness. I can jsut stand on the floating docks at the lake then see the world spin. Or sit in a kayak with small waves hitting it to notice my head tense up from the motion. Disable motion blur, max out your field of view, get rid of that feature that blurs the far stuff but keep things close in focus (forgot what that's called). Recoil doesn't do anything special. It just joggle the camera. If shaking your own camera makes you sick, there's something options you can alleviate the problem.

This isn't just a "them" problem; people, myself included, have been suffering motion sickness from the recoil on a specific subset of weapons for years, and been requesting a change for years. OP just explained it in a much more understandable manner.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

9 hours ago, Ginthus said:

I generally do not have any issues with camera shake as it usually just does what it says, it moves the image in all directions without touching the cameras rotation. I tried to analyse why I just get sick from some of these camera movements made by certain guns recoil and it has all to do with rotation. I am going to use the roll, pitch and yaw to explain the movements that become problematic, see image below.

Figure 1. The yaw, pitch, and roll angles in the human head motion

I am not a doctor but if you can read this text and move your head I am certain that you can verify my statements to be true. Human eyes automatically adjust for roll, pitch and yaw so unless you are upside down or in zero g you wont have a problem knowing exactly which direction is up. As a result, the image you in your head is also not rotating. I know there is tons of education videos on the subject which explains this 100 times better than I tried, like the semicircular canals in your ear which is kinda like your rotation sensor.

It seems that almost all guns either zoom in/out and/or pitch the camera slightly, which is completely fine as its what every game does (even though this makes zero sense since we are in 3rd person). I would have thought that the pitch rotation would make me sick but it just doesn't affect me, maybe at some ridiculous levels of rotation. However there are some weapons that for some reason combines the pitch with yaw rotations, I think I saw one that did roll which is bordering insanity. Please refrain from ever artificially introducing this, PLEASE. On a side note, all these rotations are extremely unnatural and you would never experience your inner world rotating like this unless you are intoxicated, maybe.

So these roll and yaw rotations makes me go motion sick extremely fast and I just can't play with any weapon that features this effect. Yes I do know there are recoil reduction mods and I wish they straight up removed the angular motion from the camera. But if this was ever supposed to be a solution then I suggest removing colourblind support and add that as a mod instead as well.

I had to shelf my Prisma Angstrum because of the recoil rotation and when I newly acquired the Tenet Diplos and it is like the epitome of motion sickness for me. The camera tilts up and slightly left AND right depending on which of the guns are shooting. If this "recoil" is required for some weird balancing act then please at least remove the roll and yaw from them and all other weapons that feature this effect.

Thanks.

…. How can it tilt both left and right at once?

 

also are you talking about the recoil, the zoom, or the screen shake?

[Drasiel]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

…. How can it tilt both left and right at once?

 

also are you talking about the recoil, the zoom, or the screen shake?

it wouldn't tilt both left and right at once it'd be one or the other, or one then the other. Several of the guns have recoil that will move up and down as well as left and right while firing. I am talking about Recoil. To a lesser or greater extent these guns are normally really bad: Twin Stubba, dual Cestra, Argonak, Larkspur-ground, Decurions-ground, and several more because I don't want to find my list right now. You can almost completely alleviate the motion sickness of these guns by slapping on a - recoil mod (except for the two archguns because archguns don't have a - recoil mod).

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

This isn't just a "them" problem; people, myself included, have been suffering motion sickness from the recoil on a specific subset of weapons for years, and been requesting a change for years. OP just explained it in a much more understandable manner.

Screen shake is the same thing as camera jitters. Do you get motion sickness if you rapidly swing the camera around? Where does your eyes focus? The crosshair? The corner? The enemy unit? I have vertigo. I can't turn my head on the right side when I sleep without feeling the world spinning. There are ways to induce motion sickness. Understand one own cause comes first. By understand them, one can minimize those causes.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

23 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

You can almost completely alleviate the motion sickness

But I still don’t get where the motion sickness comes from…. 
 

 I have a lich with dual twin stubbas. Will destroy then get back to you.

[Uhkretor]

... I'm confused... OP just said it caused motion sickness to him/her, I don't get why the sudden accusation flick...

[Ginthus]

4 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Do you have vertigo?

No, but by the description of the condition I can say that I've felt like the world spins when closing my eyes at dumb levels of intoxication which I don't do anymore. I do get car sick quickly if I don't look at the road. The solutions for me in those situations is to either be the driver or closing my eyes and trying to sleep. In a sense, I stop being the driver when these guns decide to rotate the camera as a function of me clicking a button and the frequency being decided by fire rate all while I should be in charge of rotations with my mouse.
 

"Joggle" "Jitters" "Screen shake"

My explanation was a bit lacking, Figure 1 still holds true.
Rotation of the X-axis is Roll, moving along the X-axis would be linear motion in the X direction.
Rotation of the Y-axis is Pitch, moving along the Y-axis would be linear motion in the Y direction.
Rotation of the Z-axis is Yaw, moving along the Z-axis would be linear motion in the Z direction.

2D movements in the YZ-plane is usually what camera shake means (screen shake would be more correct if this was the only movement), usually a form of cheap effect added in videos. There is however a small change in pitch and yaw if the effect was real camera shake, that is why only some games causes issues for me. Planar movements are of no concern to me personally, the same is not true for changes in pitch and yaw and the weapons mentioned being rather extreme on the effect.
 

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

Twin Stubba, dual Cestra, Argonak, Larkspur-ground, Decurions-ground, and several more because I don't want to find my list right now.

I am going to test out those weapons you mentioned, thanks.

 

23 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I don't get why the sudden accusation flick

I don't think I am being accused of anything but I guess explaining this is like explaining the colour green to a person that has never been able to perceive that wavelength. It must seem crazy that something like that is possible I guess, or at the very least people will have doubts.
 

[Lutesque]

18 hours ago, Ginthus said:

 

It seems that almost all guns either zoom in/out and/or pitch the camera slightly, which is completely fine as its what every game does

It most certainly is not fine....if they wanted to have Recoil they should put it on the Reticle... Not the Camera... Zoom should be adjusted in the Options... Not by Rivens 😐...

18 hours ago, Ginthus said:

But if this was ever supposed to be a solution then I suggest removing colourblind support and add that as a mod instead as well

I mean.... I get your point but seriously... DE WILL DO THIS 😱 !!!

11 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

get rid of that feature that blurs the far stuff but keep things close in focus (forgot what that's called)

Depth Of Field 😝.

10 hours ago, Drasiel said:

This isn't just a "them" problem; people, myself included, have been suffering motion sickness from the recoil on a specific subset of weapons for years, and been requesting a change for years. OP just explained it in a much more understandable manner.

I personally don't have any Medical Reactions to Recoil... I just really @_#$-ing Hate it... 😤

9 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

. How can it tilt both left and right at once?

Maybe thats what motion sickness feels like.... Like things are move left and right simultaneously.... Kinda like Synesthesia 😝...

9 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

…. How can it tilt both left and right at once?

 

also are you talking about the recoil, the zoom, or the screen shake?

All of them.... Delete them all 😤...

 

[Uhkretor]

@Ginthus

Does disabling Screen Shake help mitigating it though? I have that option disabled.

[Drasiel]

13 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Screen shake is the same thing as camera jitters. Do you get motion sickness if you rapidly swing the camera around? Where does your eyes focus? The crosshair? The corner? The enemy unit? I have vertigo. I can't turn my head on the right side when I sleep without feeling the world spinning. There are ways to induce motion sickness. Understand one own cause comes first. By understand them, one can minimize those causes.

If I set camera movement speed to really high yes I will get motion sickness, I have turned down where that doesn't affect me. I focus on the reticule or the enemy. I understand how to manage the motion sickness warframe gives me, I disable DOF, and motion blur, I slow down camera turn speed, I disable screen shake, normally I would also disable head bob but that's not a problem in warframe. With all that turned off or down certain guns will still make give me motion sickness purely because of the recoil. Let me try to find something someone else posted about it. Here it is, why some guns cause really bad motion sickness for people:

12 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

But I still don’t get where the motion sickness comes from…. 
 

 I have a lich with dual twin stubbas. Will destroy then get back to you.

certain gun's recoil either makes the whole screen shake or affects multiples of pitch, yaw, and roll. That triggers motion sickness. I am curious do you understand the basics of what can cause motion sickness in people? it's basically when the motion that our eyes are seeing does not line up with the motion that our body is feeling this dichotomy creates motion sickness. Games have suffered from this since the very first FPS with clever designers finding ways to mitigate and almost entirely remove it some cases. Warframe (since they added remove screen shake) has generally been very good about this. Certain guns recoil is terrible for it.

I actually hope you are one of the people that doesn't get motion sick from the recoil of those guns. Not everyone gets motion sickness, and even of those that do severity can really range the whole gamut from eye discomfort to full blown nausea and dizziness.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I used to get motion sickness from recoils but had adjusted my view onto other more static objects. I get motion sickness from counting the trains that goes by on the railroad. It's gong to be very difficult for a developers to adjust said recoil to reduce motion sickness. All we can hope for is for DE to get rid of shaking altogether.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

5 hours ago, Drasiel said:

That triggers motion sickness. I am curious do you understand the basics of what can cause motion sickness in people?

Huh…. There were a few times where started feeling dizzy after shooting certain weapons… couldn’t even look at the screen.

 

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

All of them.... Delete them all 😤...

I agree. First time I played wf made my brain explode. I was somehow looking at the screen, at the window and firing all at once that everything was blurry…. WF is hard getting used to.

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I used to get motion sickness from recoils but had adjusted my view onto other more static objects. I get motion sickness from counting the trains that goes by on the railroad. It's gong to be very difficult for a developers to adjust said recoil to reduce motion sickness. All we can hope for is for DE to get rid of shaking altogether.

I disagree simply from the fact that it seems to be a specific type of recoil that causes this. Most guns are fine with small subset of them being awful and triggering motion sickness quite badly. If it was just general recoil that was bad all the weapons would trigger it but they don't.

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

Huh…. There were a few times where started feeling dizzy after shooting certain weapons… couldn’t even look at the screen.

 

I agree. First time I played wf made my brain explode. I was somehow looking at the screen, at the window and firing all at once that everything was blurry…. WF is hard getting used to.

That would be a mild sensation of motion sickness yes.

[Ginthus]

@Uhkretor
I have motion blur and screen shake disabled. 
As for other potential things that might affect the motion, or the smoothness of the motion at least is that I am running the game at ~120fps@144Hz

@Drasiel
So I did some testing with the weapons you mentioned and yeah, depending on the amplitude and frequency of the recoil some of these weapons are just impossible for me to use.
I didn't have the Twin Stubba but the Stubba alt-fire has the bad recoil effect. I wonder if enough weapons had this effect more players that experience this motion sickness would voice their opinions. At the current state it doesn't look like a lot of easily available weapons have this effect. Stubba has it in the alt-fire but I don't think new players will know what that even means for quite a while.

DE please just give us a remove recoil option, add some other form of accuracy penalty to balance it if that is the reason for this being overlooked. I am all for "cool" effects but the recoil doesn't create immersion, it breaks immersion since I do in fact need to stop using the weapon or stop playing.