Bosses and Boss fights. What needs changing?

[Lutesque]

1) Invulnerability Phases.

2) Excessive Knockdowns.

3) Excessive Tankiness.

4) Ability and Status Immunity.

5) Adds (Additional Enemies)

6) Unavoidable Attacks.

7) Visual Noise.

8) Stupid Forced Gimmicks (Heavy Weapons, Amps, Xoris, Parazon,etc)

9) Microscopic Weak Points.

10) Forced Co-Operation.

 

 

Basically the only well Designed boss in this game.. is The Seargent... the rest of them Suck Donkey @#&$....

On 2021-11-04 at 11:21 PM, Arniox said:

Nihil (one of the best and most unique and fun boss fights imo)

I don't know this Boss...

On 2021-11-04 at 11:21 PM, Arniox said:

Liches/Sisters

Ah yes that brings me to,:

11) Excessive Teleportation...

On 2021-11-04 at 11:21 PM, Arniox said:

Hemocyte - (uses old clunky mechanics from the Lephantis)

Hemocyte is one of the better Bosses... Atleast it can be Affected by Abilities it's only issue is the Invulnerability Phases.

On 2021-11-04 at 11:21 PM, Arniox said:

•  

3 - The finally, these's the super weak bosses. The bosses that require absolutely no effort to slaughter in a single run by shot. These bosses need a complete rework to be interesting or unique

No... They need to Shut Up and Die and give my my god damn Hydroid Systems....

23 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The "puzzles" you speak of, are easy ignored with a zero investment operator. A very similar fight to the section 2 fights you already bash.

Can also be ignored with:

Ivara's Dash Wire (Bonus Points because Team Mates can jump on the wire too)

Titania's Razorwing.

Hildryn's Helicopter.

Limbo.

Loki's Passive + Patagium

And that's all I can think of for now....

23 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Also nobody's allowed to touch a single hair on the Sergeant's head, he's one of my favorite boss fights in the game and I will not have him sullied.

PREACH !!!

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Before any change can be made to any boss, what needs to change is player attitude towards bosses. Mainly, they have to understand and make peace with the fact you should not be able to deal with a boss as easily as you deal with cannon fodder enemies

Never !!!

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Exploiter Orb is a good boss fight.

Unless you do it Solo... Then it's a terrible example due to the Boss Cheating....

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Reworked Jackal is a good boss fight.

🤔

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Why? Because they are mechanical challenges rather than gear checks

That's kinda bad design.... 

And it's why new players Struggle with these Bosses because all of a sudden the game just changes the rules without warning or Explanation....

You know what... Despite how much I love Sekiro... It also has this exact same problem.... The first time you encounter illusions is within the Last Butterfly Boss Fight... The first time you have to perform the lightning counter is within a Bossfight.... The first time you are unable to perform a thrust attack is within a Boss Fight... The first time you have to use The Bell is within a Boss Fight....

Wow... I didn't realise how many times Sekiro did this 😱....

21 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

. my fantasy version of the Sarge is a teleporting, sniper boss who takes time to line up a shot but can deal tremendous damage to you if he hits

Why do you hate us ? 🤨

21 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 

Tyl Regor - guy himself is manageable, but his drop table for Equinox is just.. yikes. at the very least I think you should get one random day part and one random night part for each run: at least then you're more likely to get the part you need

I've farmed Equinox on 3 Seperate Occasions and each time I got her relatively quickly 😱.... Luckiest Tenno in the World .. right here 😎 !!!

21 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 

Jordas Golem - change this to a fight that uses both archwing and railjack: players have to fly inside his body and destroy critical organs to make him vulnerable, then you fight him with railjack. the final blow is delivered via Forward Artillery, because only the BIGGEST gun will take him out for good

Considering how long it took me to acquire Atlas in just going to disagree with all of this.... 

21 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Phorid - either replace him with Juggernaut Behemoth (which is tougher but still doable for everyone) or rework him already: anything is better than what we have now.

Last thing anyone needs is invasions taking longer to complete so no....

21 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Sprag & Venkra - these two were supposed to be getting a rework.. still waiting..

They are perfectly fine... Although making this Fight Take longer (let's be honest... That's what every rework does) would give me more time to look for Caches in public Groups.

19 hours ago, Arniox said:

Yes, engagement is a better word. There needs to be much more engagement. Some might argue that the Ropalolyst is boring and easy. But I actually enjoy the fight because you're engaged the whole way through, No "wait around, immortal" stages

Tell that to the player's waiting on the center platform who just do nothing while you play Chicken Rodeo on the Ropalolyst.

19 hours ago, Arniox said:

I actually prefer longer fights that leave a lasting impression. But I deffinately do agree that if they want to make boss fights long and challanging, they need to massively boost up the loot you gain from it because if you're trying to farm a rare mod drop, or the frame from a boss; then it becomes tedius if the fight is longer than 2-4 minutes

Bosses will be never be good if they continue to gate keep the Best Goodies behind Tedius RNG...

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

•  
• A mechanic the forces you to use a rarely considered piece of gear for DPS in part of the boss fight. (Archguns. And/or nechramechs too now.)

If you have to "Force" players to use something then it's just a Badly Designed Boss... If Archguns weren't so bad there wouldn't be a need to to use Force... You don't have to Force player to use The Kuva Bramma... It's a powerful weapon so players use it of their own free will...if every Archgun hit like The Arquebex then maybe players might consider them... While still allowing the players who got god rolls on their Bramma's to still use their weapon of choice.

9 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Only way is to remove the gear. Nihil was a different experience, was kinda good.

If I wanted a different experience I would just play a different game.... Last thing anyone wants is for the things that make Warframe Warframe to be removed just because some players can't be bothered to see what else is in their library...

9 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Grendel missions i enjoyed, because you couldn't use mods or operator, something along those lines would be fun for future bosses

I give up... I just give up 😭...

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I think it's significantly healthier than one-shoting a boss enemy for the boss battle

It's not though 🤔

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Below is the difference between an "endgame" player and myself in a Borderlands boss kill. And that it to say that the tremendous amount of effort it takes to get these kills is not representative of them, and that you'll never find a fun way to achieve what you want in games like these.

1. Endgame player - 

1. Myself -

 

Embed 😭 !!!

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Bosses are meant to be a test of the gear and power you've accumulated. Making them come off as almost unbeatable when you first start the game, and a sense of triumph later on. I want to play Warframe, I don't want to watch Warframe the movie or play excavation 2.0.

Sounds like one of those Dark Souls Elitist things they like to say... 🤔

2 minutes ago, Arniox said:

 

Like the two orb fights are really fun because they challenge us mechanically to use all our gear and to watch our for certain things

Until I see this fight being done with Every Warframe then the very thing you are describing just isn't true....BTW excessive Spamming of Operator will not be tolerated... I won't accept any attempts where The Warframe is nothing but a Gun Holder that you barely see for more than 3 Seconds at a time....

 

[Arniox]

6 hours ago, Galuf said:

Profit taker is imho the best boss atm. It's no bs you go in and fight the boss. The first time you go in, you get your ass whoped, I recall it when it got released it was mopping the floor time. The strategy is unique, there is not time gating, and ultimately at the end of the day you literally rekt it and it's worth it.

Exploiter is well designed but has obnoxious drops in rythm and imposes a spaghetti mission soft releoad in the process(like it was the case in raids)

Eidolons are extremly well designed but it gets telegraphed and close to a waiting game as well

Starchart bosses(the ones that drop frame parts) should be balanced toward not having to be too much longer than others

Yes, I agree with all of this. 

I love the orb fights. Definitely the profit taker most of all. Uniquely challanging because of mechanical difficulties. 

And eidolons as well. Even though they've been meta ground to high heaven, it's still an art to be able to do a 6x3. It's still mechanically very challenging. And for newbies, a 1x3 is also challenging. I love how the boss fight as a whole has become a challenge for everyone. Be it a mechanical challenge, or a skill and timing challenge for high MR

[Arniox]

4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Stupid Forced Gimmicks (Heavy Weapons, Amps, Xoris, Parazon,etc)

You have to get used to this. These are no longer just gimmicks. They're your gear and you need to respect them because they're being used more and more. 

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Forced Co-Operation.

That's how warframe is meant to be played. In a team. You can't possibly be so introverted you can't work with a team to take down a boss

 

6 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Invulnerability Phases.

2) Excessive Knockdowns.

3) Excessive Tankiness.

4) Ability and Status Immunity.

5) Adds (Additional Enemies)

6) Unavoidable Attacks.

7) Visual Noise.

8) Stupid Forced Gimmicks (Heavy Weapons, Amps, Xoris, Parazon,etc)

9) Microscopic Weak Points.

10) Forced Co-Operation.

All of these are a sign of really good boss design. With mechanical challanges, skill tests, timing, and etc. 

Get used to it. 

[Lutesque]

14 minutes ago, Arniox said:

You have to get used to this. These are no longer just gimmicks. They're your gear and you need to respect them because they're being used more and more. 

LoL... No they are not... I can do all my regular content just fine without using literally any of these..... If they want me to use them then make the actually worth using...

15 minutes ago, Arniox said:

That's how warframe is meant to be played. In a team. You can't possibly be so introverted you can't work with a team to take down a boss

Listen here Captain Presumptuous... My issue is not that I have issues playing with Other people... I actually like playing with other people... But other people also refuse to communicate and coordinate in the Majority of the missions I encounter them in...

Part of this is just player Behavior but for the most part it's a Failure in Design...

20 minutes ago, Arniox said:

All of these are a sign of really good boss design. With mechanical challanges, skill tests, timing, and etc. 

Get used to it. 

🤨 No....

Also name any beloved game where the boss spends more time being invulnerable than it does being vulnerable while still invalidating all the mechanics you learned up to this point and then proceeds to chain Knock you down and uses Adds to hang up on... Name one game that people praise for having all those things ? 🤨

The issue of visual noise can't even be debated... You can't call something that induces motion sickness, migraines and Epilitic Fits examples of Good Game Design....

I mean you can if you want to but if that's genuinely how you feel then please tell me right now so that I can waste my time else where.

[KitMeHarder]

26 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

If you have to "Force" players to use something then it's just a Badly Designed Boss... If Archguns weren't so bad there wouldn't be a need to to use Force

To a degree, you can be right at times. But it's for a small portion of the PT fight, and without nerfs, this is how you spice up the game... and I don't want nerfs. To DEs credit they have made significant improvements to archguns, but in typical fashion they just don't keep it up, invalidating what little use heavy weapons had now that they don't have galvanized mods and arcanes. So yeah, it'd also be nice if heavy weapons didn't suck when they force me to use them.

And like you brought up with the Bramma, without mechanics like this, what's to stop me from just using the Redeemer on every boss then? As long as it's done well, I'm fine with a bit of heavy-handed challenge, because the alterative will never happen in a game like this.

33 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Embed 😭 !!!

If you're the guy from before, I still refuse until I can resize them. :p

34 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Sounds like one of those Dark Souls Elitist things they like to say... 🤔

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ never played the games. But I'm open to your take then, because the other guy I argued against says stuff like "bosses should take every frame 5 minutes to kill, regardless of investment".

[Lutesque]

18 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

To a degree, you can be right at times

Be honest, Tenno... I'm always right 😁.

19 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And like you brought up with the Bramma, without mechanics like this, what's to stop me from just using the Redeemer on every boss then?

If that's what you want to do then is that a bad thing ? 🤔

It's the same issue with the sudden influx of Wukong Players everywhere.... 

Why does anybody just Automatically assume that anything that suddeny becomes Popular is a Problem ?  If they like Monkey Boy and Luv Zarr then I say Let them be...my only gripe with Wukong players is the one Wukong Player who Killed my Synthesis Target Last night....

This is literally the only issue I've had with Wukong Players... 

Obviously if you use Redeemer Prime on everything you clearly love that weapon.... How would you feel if they suddeny decided to force you to use something else....

25 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

If you're the guy from before, I still refuse until I can resize them. :p

I always tell everyone to Embed... Even though I myself also find it extremely Cumbersome the Forum is kinda picky about the sorts of links it will or won't embed.

27 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ never played the games. But I'm open to your take then, because the other guy I argued against says stuff like "bosses should take every frame 5 minutes to kill, regardless of investment".

Whoever said that is my Hero ♥️ !!!

[KitMeHarder]

8 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

If that's what you want to do then is that a bad thing ?

Personally I like using the best items in a game, or at least ones that are very competitive. But I also like variety. That being said, this game and every game like it will never have an enjoyable amount of variety in their endgame content.

But both boxes can be checked if you limit the gear you can use in the upper echelon of bosses, creating a unique "best in slot" for each one. And at least for me this works, and is best option I've seen or seen the devs take. It's not always the answer, but it's the best when it is.

15 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

It's the same issue with the sudden influx of Wukong Players everywhere.... 

I don't have a problem with this or Wukong. What I have a problem with would be how the game design makes Cloud Walker so hyper relevant in so many places (not his clone or passive like people like to think), and is the main reason you see the Kong so much. After that it's just more bad game design that makes Wukong a nice well rounded platform that easily incorporates all the new meta stuff... so might as keep using him since CW is so good. (BTW I use Wukong all the time.)

24 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

How would you feel if they suddeny decided to force you to use something else...

As opposed to it being nerfed? I'd feel awesome about it. The places this game does or has forced players to use something is infrequent enough that I think it's a good mechanic, even if nothing more but to "keep the peace" of the nerf rants.

26 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Whoever said that is my Hero ♥️ !!!

How would you do it? Because at current it's done by ignoring hundreds of hours of grinding, by adding cutscenes and by adding invuln phases. Some things you seemed to be against, but now praise.

[Megalomaniakaal]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

On 2021-11-05 at 1:43 AM, Jarriaga said:

Exploiter Orb is a good boss fight.

Unless you do it Solo... Then it's a terrible example due to the Boss Cheating....

I do it solo with Octavia and I have no idea what you are talking about. Eh, I guess stealth is a harder cheat than whatever it supposedly does.

[TheGrimCorsair]

18 hours ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

I do it solo with Octavia and I have no idea what you are talking about. Eh, I guess stealth is a harder cheat than whatever it supposedly does.

Also easy to faceroll solo with Chroma.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-11-04 at 2:21 PM, Arniox said:

In my opinion, there are three categories of bosses. Two of which, really should get some updates. I'm not going to mention any of the field bosses as, while I wouild love a proper boss fight to be built for them, I don't mind basically just a "difficult" enemy within a normal mission. These include:

• Ven'kra Tel / Sprag
• Lynx
• Juggernaut
• Corrupted Vor
• The G3
• John Prodman
• All the Acolytes
• Stalker's
• Zanuka Hunter
• Wolf of Saturn Six

1 - New and well built bosses. These bosses are newly updated and work well. They're not too clunky. Have understandable mechanics and are actually somewhat fun to do in repeat. They also sometimes offer a bit of challange. Even if it's just the puzzel that's challanging.
These include, but are not limited to:

• Kele De Thaym
• Jackal
• Ambulas
• Razorback
• Zealoid Prelate
• Ropalolyst
• Nihil (one of the best and most unique and fun boss fights imo)
• Eidolons
• Orb Mothers
• Liches/Sisters

2 - Old and Clunky bosses. Alot of these bosses got "somewhat recent" updates within the grand scheme of things, but now days, those "updated" boss fight mechanics have become extremely clunky, sometimes quite glitchy, and involve a tone of immortal phases that force the player to wait around a lot of the time doing nothing. These immortality phaess only exist because there is no actual challange or puzzel to defeat these bosses. If you can time it well, most of these bosses only survive longer because they have immortal phases and would instantly die otherwise. I would love to see a complete rework to alot of these bosses so they're more enjoyable and faster paced. Harder and more challanging. Some of these bosses are very old and if they did get reworks, it was quite a long time ago. 

• Captain Vor - (has bubble immortal phases and instantly dies otherwise. Very boring. Would love to see a more puzzel based, challanging fight for the new player experience to get them hooked)
• Councilor Vay Hek - (Flies around and can only shoot at him when he talks. Possibly the most annoying boss to do because he has such long immortal stages)
• Lieutenant Lech Kril - (Can only shoot him in the back and when he freezes solid. Super boring and way too easy. Has long immortal phases)
• General Sargas Ruk - (Again, can only shoot him when he "Flames On" and is just boringly easy otherwise)
• Tyl Regor - (Has super long and glitchy immortal phases and doesn't involve the water in the actual fight. Just as an annoyance. Needs another complete rework imo)
• Balor Formorian - (Boring and with no sustenance to it)
• Raptors - (Again, too easy and with no puzzel or challange to it. The only difficulty for new players is the amount of damage these guys do)
• Lephantis - (Is glithcy, barely used at all except for Nekros. Has no challange or puzzel to it. Just wait for mouths to open and shoot)
• Juggernaut Behemoth & Jordas Golem - (Personally, i'd love to see an updated and cleaned up version of the Raid implemented as his actual boss fight. With the final stage also being reworked to possibly be fighting in the skies of Deimos)
• Hemocyte - (uses old clunky mechanics from the Lephantis)

3 - The finally, these's the super weak bosses. The bosses that require absolutely no effort to slaughter in a single run by shot. These bosses need a complete rework to be interesting or unique. And I mean, entirely rework the boss itself and their fight. Because, for some of these bosses, I can't see a way that their current form would ever be challanging or difficult. This is actually a kindof small list. But these enemies often don't have any, or very few immortal phases (Which is a good thing) but they also have absolutely no challange to their normal stages.

• The Sergeant - (By far, one of the weakest and most useless bosses of all time)
• Alad V - (A bit of a callange for new players and a "sudo" immortal phase. But for experienced players, offers no puzzel or challange and is very easy to defeat)
• Hyena Pack - (Also no puzzel or challange and no real immortal phase. Can be one shot with most end game builds)
• Phorid - (Probably the second weakest and most useless boss in the entire game. Can literaly just be run by gunned down in a single shot)
• Mutalist Alad V - (I love that he can control players to do his bidding. This needs to be expanded on. But otherwise he offers no challange or puzzel to complete)

 

Now, I'm not saying to just straight up increase these bosses' difficulty just to make them more challanging. Because that's not a challange. What I want is for these outdated clunky, or way too easy bosses to be reworked so that they have a puzzel, or series of challanges to complete in order to kill them. Maybe specific places to shoot them. Similar to how the Jackal was reworked to be both easy to speed run over and over. But also challanging to complete his puzzel, avoid his laser grid/shockwaves and to stand up to the challange.

Please DE, after the new war is over and done with. Please rework these bosses. @[DE]Steve@[DE]ScottP

I think you're forgetting a few things when it comes to the weak bosses. All of those bosses are supposed to be memes or new player level bosses. Reworking them just so vets can go back to fighting them again would be a waste because now those bosses would no longer be for new players learning the game and NOT having the late builds to rely on. New players have to figure out lephantis and the phorid like we did "growing up" in Warframe. It wouldn't be fair to them.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-11-06 at 1:40 AM, KitMeHarder said:

How would you do it? Because at current it's done by ignoring hundreds of hours of grinding, by adding cutscenes and by adding invuln phases. Some things you seemed to be against, but now praise.

I can't tell you how.... But all I can tell you is any fight that Drags on longer than 5 Minutes sucks Donkey Balls....

On 2021-11-06 at 7:07 AM, Megalomaniakaal said:

I do it solo with Octavia and I have no idea what you are talking about. Eh, I guess stealth is a harder cheat than whatever it supposedly does.

What I'm talking about is the Spawn pattern of The Raknoids.... The most annoying thing about this Boss was the Raknoids tossing their Coolant before I could ever see them let alone actually kill them...

So just to confirm my Suspicion I modded my Guass with literally every single Enemy Radar Mod I owned.

Vigilante Pursuit.

Enemy Sense.

Stealth Drift.

Enemy Radar.

And Primed Animal Instinct...

And Sure enough just as I suspected I could see Red Blips Popping up directly underneath the Exploiter  when my back was turned....

One time the game Actually F@$@$ Up and I was lucky enough to see a Raknoid Spawning with my Actual Eyeballs right underneath the Exploiter...

7 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Also easy to faceroll solo with Chroma.

I did it with Inaros back when Proton Pulse was bugged so I believe you can do it with Any WarFrame.... Especially now that you can Subsume Vial Rush and Firewalker for the Sake of Traversal...

Vial Rush doesn't even cost Energy so it's always usable no matter what... Once the coll down ends Obviously 😝.

 

 

[KitMeHarder]

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I can't tell you how.... But all I can tell you is any fight that Drags on longer than 5 Minutes sucks Donkey Balls....

I think you misunderstood. I was just using a hypothetically amount of time. The guy wasn't saying bosses should be short, but that no matter how good you are or how much you invest in your arsenal, a boss fight should take the same amount of time. No more, no less.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-11-05 at 3:38 PM, KitMeHarder said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ never played the games. But I'm open to your take then, because the other guy I argued against says stuff like "bosses should take every frame 5 minutes to kill, regardless of investment".

I love the bosses in SoulsBorne games.

At the same time, it is different from Warframe bosses. In Warframe players are meant to fight the boss over and over in order to get what they need from the boss (re: Tyl Regor and Equinox parts). So they are not meant to be difficult, just replayable. In Dark Souls and other such games the bosses are not meant to be farmed, they are meant to be one and done and then we move on to the next part of the game.

As for bosses, below are videos. Judge for yourself.

Abyss Watchers: This is one of my favorite boss fights in Dark Souls 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKuAWchxPo8

Pontiff Sulyvhan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASgsL3INnl0

From Bloodborne: Martyr Logarius https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjdHdC8unLQ

I have no problem with these boss fights. I don't want them changed at all. With that said, fights like these would not work in Warframe because Warframe's design requires players fight the boss repeatedly to get the desirable loot. In Bloodborne, Dark Souls etc. you get the loot after you kill the boss.

EDIT: I give you the boss fight some players hate, but I would not want changed because it is a perfect fight for the boss we are fighting. Fits his personality perfectly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44sXRB_KHwE

EDIT 2: Also, in regards to length, keep in mind these videos are of someone who is either really good and/or, and I think more likely, more experienced with the fights. It takes me much longer to fight these bosses.

[mrpyro12345678]

I'll just note, Starchart bosses are pretty much early game bosses, and they should demonstrate abilities one by one. So by reworking Jackal, DE pretty much had made an out-of-sequence boss, having invulnerability phases, laser walls, various phases, enviroment usage etc...

Don't get me wrong, Jackal is epic, but that's just too much stuff for new players to learn! If we had to rework Jackal again, I would prefer making it an artillery battery like it was in the beginning, demonstrating strong Corpus attacks at their highest potential (except maybe the rockets, at least rework the rocket attack). And perhaps make Jackal especially vulnerable when it's in attack mode.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think you're forgetting a few things when it comes to the weak bosses. All of those bosses are supposed to be memes or new player level bosses. Reworking them just so vets can go back to fighting them again would be a waste because now those bosses would no longer be for new players learning the game and NOT having the late builds to rely on. New players have to figure out lephantis and the phorid like we did "growing up" in Warframe. It wouldn't be fair to them.

They should do like many games do. Give them more mechanics on a higher difficulty. Normal star chart would keep the current bosses and on steel path they'd increase their mechanics and behavior while also introducing new drop tables. Would kill two birds with one stone, #1 Bosses turning into content worth running, #2 Steel Path not just being a synonym for endless.

[Megalomaniakaal]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

But all I can tell you is any fight that Drags on longer than 5 Minutes sucks Donkey Balls....

I don't necessarily agree with this 100%, I agree that it probably should be possible to finish every boss fight in 5 min. or less if you use the right tactics, but it should be possible to drag it out and take your sweet sweet time with it if that is what you are after. That is what I tried doing the first time I ran PT and I really hated it when I realized I needed to finish the last stage in 5 min. or less. but oh well, at least it's a one off, right? Wait. Ropa, damn it.

[Felsagger]

Want good boss fights: 

 

ELDEN RING. 

 

Look elsewhere for bosses and good boss fights. This is a portable generic cellphone game in such department. It is meant to be easy.

Simple. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They should do like many games do. Give them more mechanics on a higher difficulty. Normal star chart would keep the current bosses and on steel path they'd increase their mechanics and behavior while also introducing new drop tables. Would kill two birds with one stone, #1 Bosses turning into content worth running, #2 Steel Path not just being a synonym for endless.

And I think that's the largest disconnect. While I do absolutely LOVE your idea (I'd even take the old Jackal and leave it in the regular star chart and bring Jackal 2.0 into Steel Path), I think we are trying to turn Steel Path into something it was never supposed to be. I include myself in that group. 

The real is that vets get the top end bosses and mini bosses, aka the top tier bosses OP mentioned. The forums complained about them all at one point, with some needing a nerf by DE due to the outcry (Wolf, Profit Taker, Stalker) I'm good with that since VERY few players I've seen can actually handle an eidolon, profit taker, the zealot, Nighil, even sentients, disruption and the very first stage of Steel Path without need their hands held.

[Felsagger]

If you have trouble defeating bosses in here, then Bloodborne, Dark Souls series, Daemon Souls, Sekiro and Elden Ring are not for you. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

If you have trouble defeating bosses in here, then Bloodborne, Dark Souls series, Daemon Souls, Sekiro and Elden Ring are not for you. 

Exactly, which is why Warframe players play Warframe. The replay value of those games aren't meant to match Warframe's and, most importantly, replacing their protagonists with the gameplay mechanics of any of Warframe's frames and load outs would make any boss far to simple. Even the sentinel would make the job trivial. And that's the point of why Warframe can't find an equal. Nothing can withstand the matchup long term.

Don't get me wrong, those games are great. The limits, sequels and extremely controlled environments of each, however, are not something a Warframe player can relate to so things like game and boss difficulty are hard to discuss.

 

[Arniox]

On 2021-11-06 at 11:32 AM, Lutesque said:

Also name any beloved game where the boss spends more time being invulnerable than it does being vulnerable while still invalidating all the mechanics you learned up to this point and then proceeds to chain Knock you down and uses Adds to hang up on... Name one game that people praise for having all those things ? 🤨

Probably dark souls. Any of them. Or Bloodborne. That game tests your entire character and being. And I wouldn't be suprised if one or two bosses at the very minimum had all those features. 

I love the more mechanically challanging bosses in warframe. But I could never ever even touch the dark souls series because they're so, SOOOO much harder and would test anyone's personal breaking point. But people still love those games.

I'm not going to argue wih you because there's no point. It's just a game. Everyone enjoys different things in warframe and plays it for many many different reasons. But a growing portion of players do enjoy a greater and greater mechanical challange so that they actually feel like the bosses aren't just a one shot, boring, forgettable enemy.

Here's some questions i'd love to hear your opinion on:
- What if they made the boss have a 100% chance to drop a random part of the frame AND the weapon from each boss + make the mod drop table seperate and drop at the same time. And then mechanically buffed the boss and made it more interesting, unique, and fun to fight? You would always recieve a frame part, weapon part and a mod drop from each fight so you wouldn't have to grind as much. And at the same time, you had an enjoyable and mechanically challanging boss fight. How would you feel about that option?

- What if one day soon, they do actually mechanically change some of your "favourite" bosses. Like sargent? Would you quit? Or would you keep playing because you enjoy warframe for other reasons?

[Arniox]

On 2021-11-06 at 12:07 PM, Lutesque said:

It's the same issue with the sudden influx of Wukong Players everywhere.... 

I actually, kinda think this is because of chinese players. Wukong is a really important "god" within chinese culture. And warframe is being played more and more by chinese players. Probably because tencent owns a huge portion of DE and the game is probably being advertised like crazy over there as a chinese friendly game.

The reason I say this is also because I'm seeing alot more chinese text in names, in chat, and in builds being shared and posted.

I have nothing against this personally. It is quite interesting to see how the meta shifts with an entire new culture joining en'mass

[Felsagger]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Exactly, which is why Warframe players play Warframe. The replay value of those games aren't meant to match Warframe's and, most importantly, replacing their protagonists with the gameplay mechanics of any of Warframe's frames and load outs would make any boss far to simple. Even the sentinel would make the job trivial. And that's the point of why Warframe can't find an equal. Nothing can withstand the matchup long term.

Don't get me wrong, those games are great. The limits, sequels and extremely controlled environments of each, however, are not something a Warframe player can relate to so things like game and boss difficulty are hard to discuss.

 

Yes. 

Warframe has the formula of the same boss with different tools. The other games creates a journey. Yes these games have replay value and of course hidden challenges. Warframe is a game where people discover styles or try new things over the road already walked. 

These are two different philosophies of game design that are perfectly valid. DE is NOT capable of making boss fights like Sekiro but that's not a limitation. It's a matter on their game design approach. For better boss fights of course From Software delivers light years ahead. 

This game was designed as a portable phone game device. It's impossible to plug a heavy complex battle in a phone device unless your input comes from keyboard/mouse or pad. With all the issues the game has I'm sure that the portable phone standard will become one of the hardest goal for DE to accomplish. 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

1 minute ago, Arniox said:

I actually, kinda think this is because of chinese players. Wukong is a really important "god" within chinese culture. And warframe is being played more and more by chinese players. Probably because tencent owns a huge portion of DE and the game is probably being advertised like crazy over there as a chinese friendly game.

The reason I say this is also because I'm seeing alot more chinese text in names, in chat, and in builds being shared and posted.

I have nothing against this personally. It is quite interesting to see how the meta shifts with an entire new culture joining en'mass

Also, Wukong is fun to play with.

[Arniox]

10 hours ago, mrpyro12345678 said:

I'll just note, Starchart bosses are pretty much early game bosses, and they should demonstrate abilities one by one. So by reworking Jackal, DE pretty much had made an out-of-sequence boss, having invulnerability phases, laser walls, various phases, enviroment usage etc...

Don't get me wrong, Jackal is epic, but that's just too much stuff for new players to learn! If we had to rework Jackal again, I would prefer making it an artillery battery like it was in the beginning, demonstrating strong Corpus attacks at their highest potential (except maybe the rockets, at least rework the rocket attack). And perhaps make Jackal especially vulnerable when it's in attack mode.

https://youtu.be/iutAnzTT9W0?t=1311

If you watch this video from the time in the link (should auto go to the time). A brand new player who is reviewing the game, said that he really, really enjoyed the Jackal fight for how the difficulty ramped up for him and he enjoyed the semi-chaotic, invigorating fight.