Impulse_Nine Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 The first time I bisected a corpus crewman with a giant blade I asked myself a bit of a moral question "Am I really the good guy here? This kind of seems like a bad thing to be doing". Skip forward a few years and I'm playing around others microwaving people alive until they explode, or firing eggs into their heads that explode in swarms of flies... and thats when they aren't dying to me infecting them with boils that dissolve them from the outside inward. If the kill count of the Tenno didn't underline their disregard for life, their methods of execution certainly do. A few other little things have struck me since though. All these spies, captures and interceptions- all to keep the Grineer and Corpus in a stalemate to keep what is obviously a very bloody war carrying on. In the years I've been playing this game, nothing is being solved, mechanically or canonically. We aren't maintaining peace, we're maintaining a bloodbath. Many of the Fortuna missions have us acting in a fashion that seems to me to be a lot like terrorism- using violence to foster outcomes that should really be settled by law. Nef Anyo is a monster for sure, but its a well known trope that if you become a monster to defeat one, you do not improve the situation so much as replace the monster. The Tenno seem to be amazingly rich yet only ever give back when material favour is offered in compensation. Rubedo in at least one bit of text, is regarded as quite valuable. I could swim in my collection of it. If the fringe of civilisation under Lotus control exists, the people in it should be living like royalty, yet one line from Little Duck in disruptions involves trading food rations with Maroo. These people starve while I sit on industrial quantities of all *kinds* of valuables? Something seems off. Sargas Ruk is right when he insults us saying we are just looters. The main thrust of our missions is for things we loot from them. We do not seem to be building anything better. We are not making a positive alternative. No other new civilisation with a better way of life. Sure we protect the Ostrons, and the Syndicates, but outside of the Relays I haven't seen any space set up by the Lotus / Tenno which offers anyone a nice life despite us obviously having the resources for it. Nora Night is a woman of considerable means to offer a lot of Tenno a lot of valuable things- and what does she ask for in return? Blood, usually- and we eagerly serve her. Freeze people, poison people, kill them while doing a sweet slide. Sure there are a few less morbid challenges- but she is someone who says "Kill 1,500 soldiers and I'll like you a *lot* more". That sounds like violence for violences sake. That *definitely* isn't good! We regularily abduct people into the world of perpetual life, pain, and death that is Sanctuary, just for the good favour of a dubiously sane cephalon. But fear not, the sentients are coming! You look at their actions and I dont see anything even slightly as evil as us. Mostly they just seem to be interested in looking at whats going on. Granted the Eidolons and Vomvalysts are quite violent still, but the rest seem to be quite chill until tenno turn up when they understandably freak out and call in reinforcements. They cooperate with Corpus to create hideous amalgams... but that is partly spearheaded by a desperate Alad V, and from the sound of it the volunteers are zealous, but very much willing to undergo amalgamation. With the Orokin dead, why are they even really returning? Maybe to finish the job- the Orokin do seem to have an immortal vibe to them. But seeing sentients seem open to hypnotising hostile soldiers rather than outright killing them, and seeing how they *definitely* want to kill us, as well as desposing both Corpus and Grineer once and for all... I dunno... they sound more like saviours of sentient life, rather than takers of it... ...and thats something that stands out in stark contrast to us, the Tenno. There are a bunch of comics I havent read and cannon I dont know about. If someone could correct me with what I'm missing that justifies the Tennos barbarity and better demonstrates the malevolence of the sentients- please do! But without that I'm left asking myself "We are the bad guys, and the Sentients are coming to save everyone from us, right?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loza03 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 This theory comes up an awful lot. However... The Grineer are genocidal slavers. They're like if Halo Spartans got the logic of Daleks. They do everything we do, and more, on civilian populations. They resort to torture and cannibalism on a regular basis. They are willing to kill everyone to achieve their goals, and 'everyone' includes innocent civilians. The Corpus, meanwhile, are also slavers of a different sort. Their society is built on keeping 99% of their citizens in constant poverty to force them into labour, whilst simultaneously indoctrinating them into a religion which preaches how good this is. Most of their security are given bulky, expensive, impractical weapons that were probably designed for the showroom floor, not to actually protect anyone. Earlier on, several Corpus got a quick buck by selling weapons to the Grineer - weapons used ON CORPUS COLONIES. What about the Sentients? Well, we only know three. Hunhow's objective isn't 100% clear - he's never targeted non-Tenno or Orokin organisations on-screen, so it may be he simply wants the Orokin dead. Erra's, however, appears to be omnicide. They don't just attack civilian populations on the way, or raid them for resources, they will actively expend resources for no purpose other than to attack civilian populations, as seen in the Octavia Comic. The Eidolon, back when it was conventionally alive, came to an Earth that was poisoned and dead save for the Unum and the Plains, and started destroying things that, by all accounts, seemingly had nobody living in them. Almost as if its goal was so motivated by hatred for the Orokin, that it wanted anything that remained of them ground to dust. At least of those who came to the Origin system, their goal is to not simply kill, but utterly erase either the Orokin or all biological life from existence, that nothing will ever, can ever know they even existed. As you may have noticed, there's a through line here. 'Civilian'. 'Citizen'. 'Innocent'. THAT is the divide between the Tenno and everyone else. Every other faction either draws no distinction between combatant and non-combatant, or prefers to attack those who have no interest in the war. Those who just want to live their lives in peace. The Tenno, meanwhile, exclusively target military operations. We don't just shoot Darvo in the face. We evacuate Grineer non-combatants too, for that matter. As for why the Tenno's goal is to maintain the War, there's a simple reason. If the Tenno wipe out the Corpus, then the Grineer will kill and enslave everything. If the Tenno wipe out the Grineer, the Corpus will too. If the Tenno wipe out both, well, we tried that. That's what they did to the Orokin. The resulting anarchy is what led to the rise of the factions to begin with. But, if the Grineer and Corpus are kept in a constant stalemate, attacking each other whilst constantly getting their numbers pruned by Tenno attacks, they can't attack civilian populations as easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anemone.Antimony Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 more than our gamified love of killing, the sentients are explicitly outright genocidal and see every faction as descendants of their orokin nemeses, and intend to wipe out or amalgamate every living thing in the system - anyone they strike deals with or show mercy to end up backstabbed when their use is through or absorbed into their ranks as an amalgam, as with alad v, ballas and for the latter, probably kahl and veso too. did you miss the mass destruction, indiscriminate killing and chaos in the new war trailer, keeping a mutilated ballas as a pet, or the fact that hunhow introduces himself as the sentient destroyer of worlds? good people generally don't eat planets, you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanaukas Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Loza03 said: As for why the Tenno's goal is to maintain the War, there's a simple reason. If the Tenno wipe out the Corpus, then the Grineer will kill and enslave everything. If the Tenno wipe out the Grineer, the Corpus will too. If the Tenno wipe out both, well, we tried that. That's what they did to the Orokin. The resulting anarchy is what led to the rise of the factions to begin with. But, if the Grineer and Corpus are kept in a constant stalemate, attacking each other whilst constantly getting their numbers pruned by Tenno attacks, they can't attack civilian populations as easily. There is also another reason. Corpus, for example, have specialized tech (that we dont have) to gather rare resources from desolate planets. Grinner are also kinda "patrolling" the system against infestation and sentients (they are the only ones close to sentient anomalies right now) while also digging rare resources with tech we don't have. Corpus and Grineer trades with each other and other colonies even if they are in war, the reason for an universal credit system sustent that idea of "cooperation for survival in a solar system ravaged by war". We exist to sustain that balance and strike when things are getting out of control to avoid the cataclysm of the Orokin empire fall. This is why all factions unites against infestation, when the entire life of this system is in danger, war is left behind until the most urgent danger is finished. Then war resumes... A never ending cycle. This will play a fundamental role in New War imho, the last trailer just make it crystal clear: "Fight together or lose everything" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impulse_Nine Posted November 13, 2021 Author Share Posted November 13, 2021 "Every other faction either draws no distinction between combatant and non-combatant, or prefers to attack those who have no interest in the war. Those who just want to live their lives in peace. The Tenno, meanwhile, exclusively target military operations." Ahhh ok! Add that to what you mentioned about the sentients in the comics I've missed, and this all makes sense to me now, thank you! ❤️ (although I still cant bring myself to use the Zymos 🤮) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soy77 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 They will be the good guys. If they win. Good guys are those who win the war and write the history in their favor. War are never black and white, there are never good and bad guys in war, everybody think they're the good guys. Thanos was just trying to bring balance to the universe, Firelord ozai was trying to unite the 4 nations. in their and their army's heads, they're the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: All these spies, captures and interceptions- all to keep the Grineer and Corpus in a stalemate to keep what is obviously a very bloody war carrying on. In the years I've been playing this game, nothing is being solved, mechanically or canonically. We aren't maintaining peace, we're maintaining a bloodbath. Wasn't the Nidus quest all about saving innocent people and succeding at it? Wasn't the Grineer queen going to take over our bodies to get inside the Tenno forces and kill everyone? Wasn't Nef Anyo quite literally stealing body parts from people because of his power and monetary interests? Wasn't the Infested going to spread all across the galaxy infecting and killing every living being? Aren't the Sentients coming to kill us all just because the Orokins (that are all dead or at least disappeared) f*ucked them over with the whole thing where they sent them in the void taking away their ability to reproduce? we stopped (and are going to) all those.. 8 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: Many of the Fortuna missions have us acting in a fashion that seems to me to be a lot like terrorism- using violence to foster outcomes that should really be settled by law. Nef Anyo is a monster for sure, but its a well known trope that if you become a monster to defeat one, you do not improve the situation so much as replace the monster. What law, tho? the closest thing to "police" in the Warframe universe were Dax soldiers and for what we know there are only 2 of them now, 3 if you count Umbra. i think this question is more about the morality and the emotional scaring that Tennos and Nef survivors will have to deal with seeing people literally being ripped apart for money. wich is good to ask ourselves these questions but in the mean time Fortuna needed someone to act before they were all dead like in the Deck 12.. 8 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: The Tenno seem to be amazingly rich yet only ever give back when material favour is offered in compensation. Rubedo in at least one bit of text, is regarded as quite valuable. I could swim in my collection of it. If the fringe of civilisation under Lotus control exists, the people in it should be living like royalty, yet one line from Little Duck in disruptions involves trading food rations with Maroo. These people starve while I sit on industrial quantities of all *kinds* of valuables? Something seems off. This seems a lot like a certain bunny i know... https://i.imgflip.com/44stns.jpg 9 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: Sargas Ruk is right when he insults us saying we are just looters. The main thrust of our missions is for things we loot from them. We do not seem to be building anything better. We are not making a positive alternative. No other new civilisation with a better way of life. Sure we protect the Ostrons, and the Syndicates, but outside of the Relays I haven't seen any space set up by the Lotus / Tenno which offers anyone a nice life despite us obviously having the resources for it. It's not shown in the game phisically but it is present in the lore, we don't elp just the Ostrons and the Syndacates but we help everyone that requests our help with the promise of being good and not turning evil afterwards. i don't remember the name of the specific faction (i'll search on it and pull it up here in a few minutes) but there are the factions of Grineer and Corpus people that turned on their factions and wanted to live a normal and peaceful life, the lore tells about several stations full of people that are just living their lives. Plus...what are WE as Tennos supposed to do? we are literally kids that the only thing they know is using an exoscheleton to fight evil 😳 9 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: Nora Night is a woman of considerable means to offer a lot of Tenno a lot of valuable things- and what does she ask for in return? Blood, usually- and we eagerly serve her. Freeze people, poison people, kill them while doing a sweet slide. Sure there are a few less morbid challenges- but she is someone who says "Kill 1,500 soldiers and I'll like you a *lot* more". That sounds like violence for violences sake. That *definitely* isn't good! She asks to do the dirty deeds to help the people that can't defend themselves, she doesn't ASK to poison, freeze or smash enemies... that's just a gameplay mechanic to give points.. 9 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: We regularily abduct people into the world of perpetual life, pain, and death that is Sanctuary, just for the good favour of a dubiously sane cephalon. This i have to agree on but i can also give the benefit of the doubt to the Tenno; We don't REALLY know that he "digitalize" them and enslave the enemy in a perpetual agony. we, as players, know that because it's a recurring joke in streams and because of the vailed comment he makes. i don't really know HOW MUCH the Tenno really knows about it. and i would assume not much since...again, it's a kid. 9 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: You look at their actions and I dont see anything even slightly as evil as us. Mostly they just seem to be interested in looking at whats going on. Granted the Eidolons and Vomvalysts are quite violent still, but the rest seem to be quite chill until tenno turn up when they understandably freak out and call in reinforcements. They cooperate with Corpus to create hideous amalgams... but that is partly spearheaded by a desperate Alad V, and from the sound of it the volunteers are zealous, but very much willing to undergo amalgamation. With the Orokin dead, why are they even really returning? Maybe to finish the job- the Orokin do seem to have an immortal vibe to them. But seeing sentients seem open to hypnotising hostile soldiers rather than outright killing them, and seeing how they *definitely* want to kill us, as well as desposing both Corpus and Grineer once and for all... I dunno... they sound more like saviours of sentient life, rather than takers of it... ...and thats something that stands out in stark contrast to us, the Tenno. That's just what a Sentient mimic would say. i have my eyes on you, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Pablogamer585 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 I think there's a pretty simple example we can put here to compare ourselves to the "good guys" concept. Think of the Doomslayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 The only time i can recall the Tenno being straight out EVIL is when The man in the wall used Lotus and us to attack Erra. but to that point...we didn't have much of a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)max141064 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said: i don't remember the name of the specific faction (i'll search on it and pull it up here in a few minutes) but there are the factions of Grineer and Corpus people that turned on their factions and wanted to live a normal and peaceful life, the lore tells about several stations full of people that are just living their lives. Found it! sorry for the wait. Kavor Defector | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void_Sentient Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 17 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said: The first time I bisected a corpus crewman with a giant blade I asked myself a bit of a moral question "Am I really the good guy here? This kind of seems like a bad thing to be doing". Skip forward a few years and I'm playing around others microwaving people alive until they explode, or firing eggs into their heads that explode in swarms of flies... and thats when they aren't dying to me infecting them with boils that dissolve them from the outside inward. If the kill count of the Tenno didn't underline their disregard for life, their methods of execution certainly do. A few other little things have struck me since though. All these spies, captures and interceptions- all to keep the Grineer and Corpus in a stalemate to keep what is obviously a very bloody war carrying on. In the years I've been playing this game, nothing is being solved, mechanically or canonically. We aren't maintaining peace, we're maintaining a bloodbath. Many of the Fortuna missions have us acting in a fashion that seems to me to be a lot like terrorism- using violence to foster outcomes that should really be settled by law. Nef Anyo is a monster for sure, but its a well known trope that if you become a monster to defeat one, you do not improve the situation so much as replace the monster. The Tenno seem to be amazingly rich yet only ever give back when material favour is offered in compensation. Rubedo in at least one bit of text, is regarded as quite valuable. I could swim in my collection of it. If the fringe of civilisation under Lotus control exists, the people in it should be living like royalty, yet one line from Little Duck in disruptions involves trading food rations with Maroo. These people starve while I sit on industrial quantities of all *kinds* of valuables? Something seems off. Sargas Ruk is right when he insults us saying we are just looters. The main thrust of our missions is for things we loot from them. We do not seem to be building anything better. We are not making a positive alternative. No other new civilisation with a better way of life. Sure we protect the Ostrons, and the Syndicates, but outside of the Relays I haven't seen any space set up by the Lotus / Tenno which offers anyone a nice life despite us obviously having the resources for it. Nora Night is a woman of considerable means to offer a lot of Tenno a lot of valuable things- and what does she ask for in return? Blood, usually- and we eagerly serve her. Freeze people, poison people, kill them while doing a sweet slide. Sure there are a few less morbid challenges- but she is someone who says "Kill 1,500 soldiers and I'll like you a *lot* more". That sounds like violence for violences sake. That *definitely* isn't good! We regularily abduct people into the world of perpetual life, pain, and death that is Sanctuary, just for the good favour of a dubiously sane cephalon. But fear not, the sentients are coming! You look at their actions and I dont see anything even slightly as evil as us. Mostly they just seem to be interested in looking at whats going on. Granted the Eidolons and Vomvalysts are quite violent still, but the rest seem to be quite chill until tenno turn up when they understandably freak out and call in reinforcements. They cooperate with Corpus to create hideous amalgams... but that is partly spearheaded by a desperate Alad V, and from the sound of it the volunteers are zealous, but very much willing to undergo amalgamation. With the Orokin dead, why are they even really returning? Maybe to finish the job- the Orokin do seem to have an immortal vibe to them. But seeing sentients seem open to hypnotising hostile soldiers rather than outright killing them, and seeing how they *definitely* want to kill us, as well as desposing both Corpus and Grineer once and for all... I dunno... they sound more like saviours of sentient life, rather than takers of it... ...and thats something that stands out in stark contrast to us, the Tenno. There are a bunch of comics I havent read and cannon I dont know about. If someone could correct me with what I'm missing that justifies the Tennos barbarity and better demonstrates the malevolence of the sentients- please do! But without that I'm left asking myself "We are the bad guys, and the Sentients are coming to save everyone from us, right?" Don't be afraid... I think I like this theory most of all. While I generally like to play or consider myself the good guy you are right. All we really seem to do is take and kill, aside from rescue or defection missions. I think the only true evil is us, and the infested. That said I really hope a lot of this will be covered in The New War with me, obviously being a big fan of sentients in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonelesswater123 Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 5 hours ago, 73yearsold said: Sorry you don’t get it. All sides are bad. Taking zero action is the smart thing to do. And letting civilians be enslaved or die is totally the right move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 On 2021-11-12 at 4:49 PM, Impulse_Nine said: You look at their actions and I dont see anything even slightly as evil as us. They're genocidal killdroids who regularly brainwash their own people to create unarguing slaves. Half the Sentients don't know the difference between "nation" and "species", and the other half don't care. They are named after pagan death gods. They exterminate innocent bystanders just for existing. They promoted a violent and sadistic nutjob who brags about being the "destroyer of worlds" to the head of their intelligence agency The Tenno are morally grey, but the Sentients are morally and ethically black as neutronium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 1 hour ago, 73yearsold said: racist much? Ethic, not ethnic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Cargan2016 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 threw out history the good guys are the ones that won the war as they ones that write the history books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Pablogamer585 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 Look I'll be honest: You guys are making a pretty big fuss about this. I'm here to kill those who hurt others (Ostrons, Solaris for example) in any way possible, I don't care about the method, the more interesting or fun, the more I'll enjoy the bloodbath, undepending of faction. I am morally "the good guy" because I kill "the bad guys" who hurt "the guys who cannot defend themselves" in 99% of the games we play, the moral actions that shift out inner balance as Tennos do not affect these at all, so, we aren't the bad guys here, for ourselves and those we've helped , but we clearly aren't the good ones for our foes either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaEnkiNoEnlil Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 In my opinion, no one is right, everyone is a victim of the Orokin and not a single one of them is trying to overcome these traumas: The Tenno are rebel kids because the Orokin killed their chosen mother; The Grinner were treated as slaves in the Orokin era and they're still commiting the same error by having that hierarchy of theirs; The Corpus: the Corpus. The Sentients are just rebel kids that were given consciouness and want to destroy the Origin System because they want to protect their home from the Orokin, when they haven't realized yet the Orokin are dead and literally nobody has given a single #*!% about their home since the Orokin Empire vanished. Note: I said the Orokin are dead because the ones left weren't even considered Orokin, they were all victims of them, mistreated in different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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