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Open Letter to the Warframe Community and Digital Extremes regarding The New War and reactions to it.


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6 hours ago, Kconvey said:

I have a major major issue with your post that I have brought up before.

The warning is utterly and completely useless.... you have NO WAY of knowing the quest and the archon fight is going to be too hard till you play it... and find out ....and stay with me here... its TOO HARD.

Seriously are you supposed to be imparted the knowledge of how hard the quest is, from the dark matter of the universe or something?

I found the archon fight to be harder than anything in Horizon Zero Dawn on a normal playthrough. That is way way too hard for a gamelocking event. The quest was clearly rushed to get it out for holidays and not properly tested for difficulty. 

If anything, this quest put a spotlight on the very wide player base of Warframe and actually narrowed down the debate of difficulty and challenge. When DE Steve posted his recent message, his words steered more toward a conclusion that their data suggested most players had a lot less of a problem getting through the quest. This is a great result (IF that is the case) because DE can "safely" move forward with more challenges that they know most players can handle.

This not to say those troubled players will be left behind but, let's be honest, this game has more community hand holding than any game I've ever played and this quest forced everyone to think on their own. Rushframe gets players killed in the quest. More importantly, this quest was NOT hard, it is challenging. It asks to recognize patterns, to take your time and to pay attention but It is no different than noob warframe play. 

This needed to happen, imo

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8 minutes ago, Skyfall81 said:

That is a good point, several big releases/updates in Dec. 

Looking at the longer trend, WF has definitely stopped growing, it's been contracting. Not like it has fallen off a cliff or dying though. Sure there are alot of differing opinions, but Warframe needs to become more inclusive if it wants to grow. Likely a topic for a different thread.

1. Steam data is only for ONE platform (and not even all of it, since Epic and DE each have their OWN launchers, too, whose data is not included in the Steam charts.).  It is in no way conclusive of growth/stalling/decline. 

2. WF's numbers are some of the biggest they've been.  Their growth for December rivals, and even appears to SURPASS, that of back at Tennocon '21.

3. Warframe is LITERALLY getting crossplay/cross-save this year + getting a MOBILE release!  It's hardly begun to grow.  How much more "inclusive" can it get?

4. What about any of this indicates to you that Warframe is "contracting" or declining in any way?   

These are genuine points and questions, and my intention is NOT to attack or belittle, please be aware.  Text can be read differently than intended, so I just want to clarify, but I am genuinely curious about why and how you've come to the conclusion you've come to.. because I see it from a number of people here on the forums (and elsewhere), and I just don't see data to back it up.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

If anything, this quest put a spotlight on the very wide player base of Warframe and actually narrowed down the debate of difficulty and challenge. When DE Steve posted his recent message, his words steered more toward a conclusion that their data suggested most players had a lot less of a problem getting through the quest. This is a great result (IF that is the case) because DE can "safely" move forward with more challenges that they know most players can handle.

This not to say those troubled players will be left behind but, let's be honest, this game has more community hand holding than any game I've ever played and this quest forced everyone to think on their own. Rushframe gets players killed in the quest. More importantly, this quest was NOT hard, it is challenging. It asks to recognize patterns, to take your time and to pay attention but It is no different than noob warframe play. 

This needed to happen, imo

Honestly, I agree.  It's a bit of "tough love" the game needed in some regards.   I mean, I, for one, am NO "pro gamer".  It took me 8+ hrs to beat this quest, and I died A LOT to the Wolf archon.   A  L O T. 

But, I mean... the game gives you a free revive and UNLIMITED retries.  It's not like it knocks you back to the beginning of TNW if you "lose too many lives".  You can LEARN from your failures and improve ON THE SPOT.   Something I gladly did.

Like you said, it's not "HARD", it's just a challenge, and some people seem perturbed by that alone.  The bow given is MORE than enough to do the bosses in.  The tools given to the Drifter are MORE than enough to heal and survive.  Understanding basic game mechanics helps, too (like using rolling to mitigate some of the damage from burning DOT).

ALL of these things should be expected of players that've gotten this far into the game already.   This isn't a "New Player" quest.  This is the current story's ENDGAME.  It's COMPLETELY reasonable to ask the players to put A BIT of effort into skills and puzzles here.  It's the bare minimum DE is asking for here.

I'm the FIRST person to argue AGAINST "elitism", but in this case, the solution really is "git gud".  Sometimes, one just has to step up to the plate and keep swinging.  

Honestly, if DE DID make it "easier", all that'd happen is you'd burn through the quest, and we'd be right back to forum posts about "Game has no challenge!  I'm bored!"

Cry me a river, people x.x  

Anyways, well said, Gen-Son.

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15 minutes ago, Skyfall81 said:

That is a good point, several big releases/updates in Dec. 

Looking at the longer trend, WF has definitely stopped growing, it's been contracting. Not like it has fallen off a cliff or dying though. Sure there are alot of differing opinions, but Warframe needs to become more inclusive if it wants to grow. Likely a topic for a different thread.

Warframe has only one big issue: The overly loud clickbait youtubers that trash it because they've overplayed it. If typing in Warframe gets you to a YouTube title that says "Players are upset at DE" or "Players are QUITTING Warframe", but you didn't know that the poster is only doing it because the name "Warframe" in the title gets him a minimum of 30k extra views, then I honestly wouldn't expect a tsunami of new players. It BS and needs to be addressed but DE focuses on moving forward. Commendable but it has to upset them too.

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

1. Steam data is only for ONE platform (and not even all of it, since Epic and DE each have their OWN launchers, too, whose data is not included in the Steam charts.).  It is in no way conclusive of growth/stalling/decline. 

2. WF's numbers are some of the biggest they've been.  Their growth for December rivals, and even appears to SURPASS, that of back at Tennocon '21.

3. Warframe is LITERALLY getting crossplay/cross-save this year + getting a MOBILE release!  It's hardly begun to grow.  How much more "inclusive" can it get?

4. What about any of this indicates to you that Warframe is "contracting" or declining in any way?   

These are genuine points and questions, and my intention is NOT to attack or belittle, please be aware.  Text can be read differently than intended, so I just want to clarify, but I am genuinely curious about why and how you've come to the conclusion you've come to.. because I see it from a number of people here on the forums (and elsewhere), and I just don't see data to back it up.

Nah, no worries bud, do not see it as attacking. 

Looking at the month over month data, looks they peaked in 2018. If the game is growing, would expect the numbers to be highest in 2020/2021. But agree this is steam numbers, so just one variable/source.

For inclusive, assume it could come off as "make it more casual." Not really my angle but example, better tutorials and hand holding early game. They made some updates to the first mission, which I heard was excellent. But one example, I had a friend that spent 20 hours in game before touching modding. The game could do better introducing the various systems. New players make decisions on games pretty quickly, and I feel WF is not friendly to new players.

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24 minutes ago, _junguler said:

you didn't offend me, i'm quite chill actually and very hard to offend, it's all good. we all love the game and want what's best for it.

the only thing i didn't like about the ques is- Kahl Veso and Teshin has to short gameplay time i wanted more- so i wish this yeat to see missions with drifter and graneer and corpus- 

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1 minute ago, Skyfall81 said:

Nah, no worries bud, do not see it as attacking. 

Looking at the month over month data, looks they peaked in 2018. If the game is growing, would expect the numbers to be highest in 2020/2021. But agree this is steam numbers, so just one variable/source.

For inclusive, assume it could come off as "make it more casual." Not really my angle but example, better tutorials and hand holding early game. They made some updates to the first mission, which I heard was excellent. But one example, I had a friend that spent 20 hours in game before touching modding. The game could do better introducing the various systems. New players make decisions on games pretty quickly, and I feel WF is not friendly to new players.

Give the New Player Experience quest a try Skyfall, and let us know what you think. I'd rather you get a direct feel of it instead of guessing the experience and I think DE intentionally made it repayable for that reason.

 

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14 minutes ago, qvpdampe87 said:

the only thing i didn't like about the ques is- Kahl Veso and Teshin has to short gameplay time i wanted more- so i wish this yeat to see missions with drifter and graneer and corpus- 

i'm looking forward to finally play the quest once we have a few patches in and know what is DE's stance on the criticisms this quest/update has gotten, should be a interesting a few weeks.

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4 minutes ago, _junguler said:

i'm looking forward to finally play the quest once we have a few patches in and know what is DE's stance on the criticisms this quest/update has gotten, should be a interesting a few weeks.

great i played it day 1 and didn't encounter a single bug everythins was smooth and very well made on PC that is dont know about the consoles

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15 hours ago, Viridian_Dawn said:

Hello Warframe, I wanted to write this to mention some things about what I’ve been seeing going on in the forums and the subreddit regarding The New War.

I’ve been seeing all sorts of posts and comments regarding The New War. Both good and bad. I’ve seen people saying that The New War is the best quest to come out of Warframe, and I’ve seen people saying The New War is the worst part of Warframe to ever exist. I don’t mind people who give constructive criticism about the quest. Constructive criticism helps the devs figure out what issues people have with The New War and fix them if they think it is necessary. It’s very helpful to offer both constructive criticism, and mention what they did right. People offering both constructive criticism and what they think was good about the quest is probably the most helpful for the devs. What I cannot deal with is people just going around saying that The New War is terrible and there is nothing good about it and not explaining it or just saying it’s terrible because they cannot complete it or “it’s too hard”. I wouldn’t mind this if they explained why they don’t like it, but some people don’t. They just criticize it and don’t elaborate all that much on it. What is really bad is when people are saying they like The New War, then someone comes and comments on their post or comment and says that their wrong and The New War is terrible. This is like what happened with Regal Aya and Prime Resurgence. Some people offered constructive criticism about not having Platinum in Regal Aya purchases, and others just complained about it and didn’t offer any constructive feedback. As DE said when they added Platinum to Regal Aya purchases, “Those who chose to be toxic will be able to participate in this change thanks solely to the constructive feedback that occurred - toxicity is never tolerated or rewarded.”

Basically, what I’m saying here is that being “toxic” about The New War will not get your issue fixed, but offering feedback about your issues might end up with you getting a response and possibly getting your issue fixed.

Remember, The New War, which is a very long and complicated quest, was developed mostly after the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. Also, remember that Digital Extremes is based in Canada where the restrictions about COVID are very high. They had to develop this quest while working at home for the most part. This was definitely a grueling task, and even though the quest did come out late, remember it could have taken even more time.
Personally, I have some constructive feedback to offer to DE about The New War, and also some things that they did well. (Spoilers Ahead! If you have not yet played the New War, consider playing it before reading the following section.)

I think that overall, The New War was a pretty good quest. I do acknowledge that some parts of the quest are definitely harder than others, and there are some parts that I think could use some change, but I am fine with where the quest is now. I’m going to go over some common issues I see that people talk about the New War and say what I think about them. (Note, that this is my opinion, so this is what I think about these issues. Other people are going to feel differently about this, and I’m okay with that. This is just my opinion.)

The two biggest issues I see people complain about are these: The Archon fight, and not being able to quit The New War once they start.
I think that the Archon fight is not that bad, but this is from someone who plays warframe alot. For a “casual gamer” as some people say, I agree with the fact that it is probably quite difficult. I think that maybe making the Archons have less health would help so you can kill them quicker, and maybe making them do less damage would help. But I personally would go with making them have less health so you can do more damage to them, and possibly get through the fight faster/easier.

Then there is the argument over not being able to quit The New War once you begin the quest. I personally think that this argument is a bit nonsensical, as in order to start The New War, you are given a prompt that says you will not be able to change your loadout or do normal Warframe things once you begin the quest, and in order to being, you have to type “NEWWAR”

Another thing I suggest is regarding the selecting the Lotus at the end of The New War. I think that the prompt where you confirm your pick should also say something along the lines of “Remember, you are not picking this from your point of view, you are picking it from Natah/Lotus/Margulis’ point of view. Pick what you think she would pick.” From what I’ve been seeing, a lot of people are picking based on appearance alone. There are some people picking based on events, but I think people should be reminded that they are picking Natah/Lotus/Margulis based on what they think she would want. Not what the Tenno would want. However, I am okay with people picking based off of the name, as it is permanent. I think people would be a lot less concerned about it if they knew they could change what she looks like, but I think not knowing that adds to the pick.
There is only one more slight issue I have. Teshin. I just want to know why you killed him off (if he is actually dead), and didn’t mention it. Erra just kills him and that’s that. I just want to know the reason behind it, that’s all.

Now for what I think was good. Digital Extremes, I want to say good job to you. You produced a very complicated and large quest in not too much time and during a global pandemic. Honestly, I really like this quest. The visuals are really good and the music as well. Kudos to Keith Power for creating another masterpiece, “For Narmer”, as well as the other people who worked on that song and the other songs in The New War. I think the story was quite good as well. There are a couple things here and there, but I don’t think anything that makes this quest any less impressive. Good job DE!
Overall, I think that The New War is quite good, but I do acknowledge that there are a few issues with it, and that it is to be expected. I think that if people want to complain about The New War, they should offer feedback on what could be done to fix their issue and also maybe mention a few things they liked about it. Just complaining about it will get nothing done.

Fellow Tenno,
Viridian Dawn

 

You don't get to tell what my opinion is, nor the manner in which I render it. Your opinion of my opinion is entirely irrelevant and literally of no consequence.

 

Furthermore DE only takes insulated and curated feedback, so your paradigm of "must be structured and formatted in the best possible terms and light for maximum acceptability" in a construct which DE has deliberately, by design, ignored for eight years. Your FUD regarding NW's construction is also factually false and entirely confabulated.

 

And the icing on the cake being the only vector DE actually makes consistent  and sweeping changes with and from is negative feedback. By all means continue to ignore that Railjack and the feedback thereof didn't actually exist, reality says otherwise.

Edited by -Kittens-
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6 minutes ago, qvpdampe87 said:

great i played it day 1 and didn't encounter a single bug everythins was smooth and very well made on PC that is dont know about the consoles

i'm also on pc (linux) and game is running perfectly, from what i understand this quest was relatively bug free, people had issues with the archon fights and the stealth sections.

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I'm 56years old. I didn't figure out the sweet spot for the powershot with the new amp/pistol until I took it for a spin in the Simulacrum.

I went into the quest blind (no spoilers thank you very much) and still managed to do it. Same goes for my wife. I know of a couple that are both 70+ and still managed to do TNW. Each one of us doing it without looking stuff up. So can we please stop with the nonsense of that it's too difficult. If you think TNW is too difficult then how did you ever manage to get the quests prior to it done? Makes me wonder how all those macho young blokes that are whining about there not being a quit option feel when hearing a 70+ woman had no issues with the quest.  No small wonder they have there panties in a twist.  :)

The one thing that could have been a tad clearer, to my taste, where the instructions about the Sirocco as well as the Nataruk. Unlike the statements about the Archons which you could only miss if you just couldn't be bothered the ones about the weapons could have been better timed. Partially no doubt my own fault, but in both cases I got so sensory overloaded at the time of the instructions for those weapons, that I missed the clue about how to use them optimally. The result was that it took me about an hour of grinding down the owl because I knew there was the non charged and the fully charged shot but during the fight I never caught on to the 'perfect shot'.

I for one found it refreshing to have a quest that for a big part brought it back to basics. No matter how much time and/or plat you had put into the game, the quest was until the final act the same for everyone. The only difference I see between the ones that finished it and those that didn't is the ability and willingness to adapt. BTW : didn't experience any bugs on console

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8 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

And the icing on the cake being the only vector DE actually makes consistent  and sweeping changes with and from is negative feedback massive complaints.

There, fixed it for you. In other words, if it's really an issue with a big chunk of the community then DE has listened and changed.

A bunch of loudmouths shouting about how they hate everything, how they will never come back, and who then spend hour after hour on the forums complaining how it's not fair that the mission that says that they won't be able to quit doesn't allow them to quit, should however be treated with the same respect as they themselves show.

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12 minutes ago, _junguler said:

i'm also on pc (linux) and game is running perfectly, from what i understand this quest was relatively bug free, people had issues with the archon fights and the stealth sections.

well this is not a problem from the game it is a problem for this people which can't figure it out how to play it

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1 minute ago, qvpdampe87 said:

well this is not a problem from the game it is a problem for this people which can't figure it out how to play it

it's a double edged sword really, it's their problem if they can't do it and that will become the game's problem that for whatever reason many people can't do the quest, these people didn't have much issues doing the earlier quests so we can assume this quest is asking too much out of them.

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8 minutes ago, _junguler said:

it's a double edged sword really, it's their problem if they can't do it and that will become the game's problem that for whatever reason many people can't do the quest, these people didn't have much issues doing the earlier quests so we can assume this quest is asking too much out of them.

dont think so because this quest is not for new players you know- why do you think you must have RJ necromech and amp- the other think is why do you think we have to confirm it to start the quest- so if you are not familiar with the game mechanics and systems then this quest is not for you yet

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1 minute ago, qvpdampe87 said:

dont think so because this quest is not for new players you know- why do you think you must have RJ necromech and amp- the other think is why do you think we have to confirm it to start the quest- so if you are not familiar with the game mechanis and system then this quest is not for you yet

i understand what you are saying and they were warned before starting the quest, but for whatever reason they started it and are now stuck, we need to help them go over the hump so they can be back to playing the game they know and love.

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4 minutes ago, _junguler said:

... for whatever reason many people can't do the quest, these people didn't have much issues doing the earlier quests so we can assume this quest is asking too much out of them.

There lies the rub, what is many people?

I just see the same dozen or so posting thread after thread, message after message about how they are quiting, never coming back, blah blah blah... that is hardly, many people.

In general, people that are unhappy will post quicker and in bigger numbers than people that are happy.

If this quest is too difficult for them, why is that an issue for us or for DE? If the amount of people that have an issue with it are very small, which it seems to be, catering to that minority will not have a positive effect on the majority and by the way, it will barely have a positive affect on that said minority because even if DE bend over backwards, that minority will not find it enough and stop playing the game again until the next big update. At that point they'll play it for a few weeks, at most, complain, whine and disappear again for months or even years.

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7 minutes ago, _junguler said:

i understand what you are saying and they were warned before starting the quest, but for whatever reason they started it and are now stuck, we need to help them go over the hump so they can be back to playing the game they know and love.

no offence but they must be rly bad at the game to not be able to finish the quest- it must be a realy bad bug or something to not be able to finish the quet

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If you examine all other situations in the game, you will find that none of them actually presents the same combination of restrictions or checks the same combination of skills as TNW. There have always been other options. That means someone can play all the way up to TNW without exercising that set of skills at the level TNW requires. Whether or not you think that level is high or not, the point is that they aren't checked.

Maybe that seems surprising given the wide variety of situautions Warframe throws at players, but it really shouldn't be since Warframe is primarily a co-op, gear-based game and communicates as such from the start. The few other situtions in the game where you can't take in a co-op friend or plan/switch out your gear, only check basic skills like walking or aiming at static targets with no danger/pressure, or they're entirely optional (and don't lock you out of the rest of the game).

Can people exercise skill? Sure, of course they can, and most people will. But Warframe does not require them to, and they are not *guaranteed* to have done so prior to TNW.

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4 minutes ago, schilds said:

If you examine all other situations in the game, you will find that none of them actually presents the same combination of restrictions or checks the same combination of skills as TNW. There have always been other options. That means someone can play all the way up to TNW without exercising that set of skills at the level TNW requires. Whether or not you think that level is high or not, the point is that they aren't checked.

Maybe that seems surprising given the wide variety of situautions Warframe throws at players, but it really shouldn't be since Warframe is primarily a co-op, gear-based game and communicates as such from the start. The few other situtions in the game where you can't take in a co-op friend or plan/switch out your gear, only check basic skills like walking or aiming at static targets with no danger/pressure, or they're entirely optional (and don't lock you out of the rest of the game).

Can people exercise skill? Sure, of course they can, and most people will. But Warframe does not require them to, and they are not *guaranteed* to have done so prior to TNW.

this is a story quest not a co-op game mod

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Not only that, it's a story quest that locks people out of the co-op game mode. Is there any other game with a single player campaign that does that?

Most other games keep their game modes separate. Warframe mixes them in some kind of hybrid of shared live universe with solo cinematic quests, and so DE has created a unique problem.

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48 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

You don't get to tell what my opinion is, nor the manner in which I render it. Your opinion of my opinion is entirely irrelevant and literally of no consequence.

 

Furthermore DE only takes insulated and curated feedback, so your paradigm of "must be structured and formatted in the best possible terms and light for maximum acceptability" in a construct which DE has deliberately, by design, ignored for eight years. Your FUD regard NW's construction is also factually false and entirely confabulated.

 

And the icing on the cake being the only vector DE actually makes consistent  and sweeping changes with and from is negative feedback. By all means continue to ignore that Railjack and the feedback thereof didn't actually exist, reality says otherwise.

You really DID miss their whole point, though, if THAT is your response. 

They NEVER said you shouldn't have opinions, nor that they ought be all positive.  ONLY that your "feedback" ought be CONSTRUCTIVE, not just destructive. 

It's not enough to say "x BAD"... you need to include "x might be better IF...." etc.  Otherwise, you're not really proposing solutions, you're just saying you don't like it.

Saying "I HATE this meatloaf!" is not constructive.  "I think this meatloaf is bland and could use more salt, perhaps a bit more spice" is constructive. It gives the creator somewhere to GO with the feedback. 

The issues with RJ were more about functionality and accessibility.  TNW is not a widely accessible quest because it's not meant to be. It's "endgame" in terms of story, currently.  Expecting a certain level of skill and awareness of the game is not unreasonable.  Functionally, TNW is completely "doable".  I'm an idiot with games and I still beat 'em (even if it took me more than a few tries on certain archons and spy segments).  There were no game-breaking bugs in TNW that prevented progression UNLIKE RJ.

So no, again, shouting "TNW BAD!" at DE isn't going to encourage any improvements or changes.  It's clearly doable just fine as it is.

You're fine to have your opinions, but do not state them as facts that "need to be heard".  Not all opinions are created with equal merit.  Not all feedback needs to be implemented.

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2 minutes ago, schilds said:

Can people exercise skill? Sure, of course they can, and most people will. But Warframe does not require them to, and they are not *guaranteed* to have done so prior to TNW.

Ignoring the Kahl and Veso-R bits, what is something that one hasn't had to do before ever prior to TNW and that they got stuck on?

Stealth? May I point to MR18 and MR8 test so that even those that got carried through all the spy missions should have at least some experience with it. But okay, let's say one does get carried through all the spy misisons and doesn't bother getting to MR8.... all that is really required in the stealth sections is observation and patience.

Boss fights with nimble enemies that are only vulnerable in certain ways during certain times and that are over several stages? May I point to Concilar Vay Hek fight on Earth, one of the first boss fights anyone has to do.

Perhaps someone that is stuck could explain what it is that they never had to do before in Warframe. (And that is assuming that they have never ever played any other game)

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