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Open Letter to the Warframe Community and Digital Extremes regarding The New War and reactions to it.


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14 minutes ago, (PSN)kite9000 said:

There lies the rub, what is many people?

I just see the same dozen or so posting thread after thread, message after message about how they are quiting, never coming back, blah blah blah... that is hardly, many people.

In general, people that are unhappy will post quicker and in bigger numbers than people that are happy.

If this quest is too difficult for them, why is that an issue for us or for DE? If the amount of people that have an issue with it are very small, which it seems to be, catering to that minority will not have a positive effect on the majority and by the way, it will barely have a positive affect on that said minority because even if DE bend over backwards, that minority will not find it enough and stop playing the game again until the next big update. At that point they'll play it for a few weeks, at most, complain, whine and disappear again for months or even years.

10 minutes ago, qvpdampe87 said:

no offence but they must be rly bad at the game to not be able to finish the quest- it must be a realy bad bug or something to not be able to finish the quet

this is the situation we find ourselves in, i don't really judge people for these things and i don't think it should matter, the least DE could have done was to add a way to abort the quest if someone is not able to finish it for whatever reason, this is my opinion and have been since they released the quest.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)kite9000 said:

Stealth? May I point to MR18 and MR8 test so that even those that got carried through all the spy missions should have at least some experience with it. But okay, let's say one does get carried through all the spy misisons and doesn't bother getting to MR8.... all that is really required in the stealth sections is observation and patience.

Stealth is a good example of a skill that has been checked by the MR tests prior to the quest. Arguably, the MR tests are more difficult.

3 minutes ago, (PSN)kite9000 said:

Boss fights with nimble enemies that are only vulnerable in certain ways during certain times and that are over several stages? May I point to Concilar Vay Hek fight on Earth, one of the first boss fights anyone has to do.

They can take in a co-op friend. They can upgrade/change their gear. Will most people just deal with without those options? Sure. Are they *required* to take on Vay Hek under a fixed scenario? Nope.

Quote

Perhaps someone that is stuck could explain what it is that they never had to do before in Warframe. (And that is assuming that they have never ever played any other game)

If you read all the other threads. It's doing eneough damage to the archons simultaneous to staying alive, without being able to take in a co-op friend or change gear.

Edited by schilds
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5 minutes ago, schilds said:

Not only that, it's a story quest that locks people out of the co-op game mode. Is there any other game with a single player campaign that does that?

Most other games keep their game modes separate. Warframe mixes them in some kind of hybrid of shared live universe with solo cinematic quests, and so DE has created a unique problem.

i don't think that this is a problem- this is a story and i want to experience it solo- yes maybe with friends will be fun but dont think that is so big of a problem- it is a problem for these people who dont know how to play and wait for others to do the dirty wokrs for them because in warframe is full of these people

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

Stealth is a good example of a skill that has been checked by the MR tests prior to the quest. Arguably, the MR tests are more difficult.

They can take in a co-op friend. They can upgrade/change their gear. Will most people just deal with without those options? Sure. Are they *required* to take on Vay Hek under a fixed scenario? Nope.

True, Vay Hek is not in a fixed scenario. BUT, unlike the fight with Vay Hek, where it's very likely that one ends up in there without a decent weapon, insufficiently modded, let alone with the right kind of damage, for the fights with the Archons you get a weapon that is specifically meant for the fights and which is the same for everyone. Which means that one gets the right tool to take on the Archons and there for makes it actually easier.

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3 minutes ago, schilds said:

Stealth is a good example of a skill that has been checked by the MR tests prior to the quest. Arguably, the MR tests are more difficult.

There's no MR9 or MR19 requirement for this quest. You can theoretically do this quest at MR8 I'm guessing? Maybe there ought to be such a requirement.

These MR tests are much harder than the stealth bits of the quest. In the quest, you can see the viewing cones of the deacons. In MR9 and MR19 tests these days, those Grineer can see clear across the map and you would never guess!

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Just now, nslay said:

There's no MR9 or MR19 requirement for this quest. You can theoretically do this quest at MR8 I'm guessing? Maybe there ought to be such a requirement.

Well ok. But at least stealth *is* checked somewhere else in the game ;-P.

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7 minutes ago, _junguler said:

this is the situation we find ourselves in, i don't really judge people for these things and i don't think it should matter, the least DE could have done was to add a way to abort the quest if someone is not able to finish it for whatever reason, this is my opinion and have been since they released the quest.

There are a myriad of mechanical and visual changes that are engaged for the duration of the quest, though... You can't just "back out" of them.  Hell, I'm sure a few of them trigger changes in the player's orbiter and starchart alone..   There are reasons in the code that "simply aborting" isn't really a thing, I'm sure, as well as story-driven reasons like IMMERSION. 

The player has infinite tries to beat this quest at ANY save point.  I really don't understand why people can't just keep trying and improving.  I died SO many times to the Wolf Archon.. but every time, I used my death as an opportunity to learn more about the environment, the phases, how my abilities worked, etc.  and eventually I figured out how to win.  

Simple. As. That.    Was it tough? Yeah!  But it's MEANT to be.  It's the "big quest to end all prior quests".  We've been through a TON of other stories to GET to this point!  Why is it then unreasonable to assume we'd have SOME modicum of skill, hm?

Anyone who's seen my streams knows I'm the clumsiest, noobiest MR30 you'll meet... and I STILL pulled it off.  Day 1, no guides.  

People just need more patience.

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)kite9000 said:

True, Vay Hek is not in a fixed scenario. BUT, unlike the fight with Vay Hek, where it's very likely that one ends up in there without a decent weapon, insufficiently modded, let alone with the right kind of damage, for the fights with the Archons you get a weapon that is specifically meant for the fights and which is the same for everyone. Which means that one gets the right tool to take on the Archons and there for makes it actually easier.

THIS ^^^^   Nobody was dropped in without adequate gear to complete the missions.  EVERYONE who beat it used the EXACT SAME SETUP available to other players.

If so many others did it, it's by definition NOT "impossible".

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8 minutes ago, (PSN)kite9000 said:

True, Vay Hek is not in a fixed scenario. BUT, unlike the fight with Vay Hek, where it's very likely that one ends up in there without a decent weapon, insufficiently modded, let alone with the right kind of damage, for the fights with the Archons you get a weapon that is specifically meant for the fights and which is the same for everyone. Which means that one gets the right tool to take on the Archons and there for makes it actually easier.

That just makes it non-negotiable. I'd argue that difficulty is orthogonal.

Vay Hek is negotiable. He *can* be hard, as you say. He can also be very easy.

The archons are at a fixed level of difficulty (whether you think that's easy or hard).

Edited by schilds
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1 minute ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

There are a myriad of mechanical and visual changes that are engaged for the duration of the quest, though... You can't just "back out" of them.  Hell, I'm sure a few of them trigger changes in the player's orbiter and starchart alone..   There are reasons in the code that "simply aborting" isn't really a thing, I'm sure, as well as story-driven reasons like IMMERSION. 

The player has infinite tries to beat this quest at ANY save point.  I really don't understand why people can't just keep trying and improving.  I died SO many times to the Wolf Archon.. but every time, I used my death as an opportunity to learn more about the environment, the phases, how my abilities worked, etc.  and eventually I figured out how to win.  

Simple. As. That.    Was it tough? Yeah!  But it's MEANT to be.  It's the "big quest to end all prior quests".  We've been through a TON of other stories to GET to this point!  Why is it then unreasonable to assume we'd have SOME modicum of skill, hm?

Anyone who's seen my streams knows I'm the clumsiest, noobiest MR30 you'll meet... and I STILL pulled it off.  Day 1, no guides.  

People just need more patience.

yep exactly- saying " oo no it is hard cant do it " is just excuse that you dont want to impruve or put some effort 

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4 minutes ago, schilds said:

Well ok. But at least stealth *is* checked somewhere else in the game ;-P.

but the player IS tested... during the quest.  

They are given the SAME gear as EVERY other player who has run this quest.  They are given LITERALLY UNLIMITED ATTEMPTS to get each part right.

If you fail, you have the opportunity to LEARN and try again, use different paths, different tools... approach it differently.  Adapt.

That people refuse to do that is not something DE would've fixed with more skill checks.  Those players just would've complained about those, too.  

It doesn't matter where you put the check/gate... the issue lies with the unwillingness on the part of the players to adapt and grow beyond their comfort zones.

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Just now, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

but the player IS tested... during the quest.  

Yes? My point is that the game does not check those skills anywhere *prior* to the quest, not in tens or hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime.

2 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

That people refuse to do that is not something DE would've fixed with more skill checks.  Those players just would've complained about those, too.  

I'm not a game designer, but I personally would not build a game that advertises as a gear-based co-op game for tens/hundreds/thousands of hours of player time (that's what the game does by not having anything but basic checks up until TNW) and then suddenly springs a non-negotiable skill-check surprise on them at the end of the main story chain that potentially locks them out of the gear-based co-op part :P.

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1 minute ago, qvpdampe87 said:

this discussion shows me that some people dont want challenge

That's true. Some people want an easy time. And the game lets them have it. Then in TNW the game suddenly says, nope you can't have it, now git (slightly) gud or you can't play anymore.

That said, I suspect the people who complain the game is easy are not the same people who complain the game is too hard :P.

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Just now, schilds said:

That's true. Some people want an easy time. And the game lets them have it. Then in TNW the game suddenly says, nope you can't have it, now git (slightly) gud or you can't play anymore.

That said, I suspect the people who complain the game is easy are not the same people who complain the game is too hard :P.

well good this quest shows how "good" the players are and i'm not so sure of that   "That said, I suspect the people who complain the game is easy are not the same people who complain the game is too hard"

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

Yes? My point is that the game does not check those skills anywhere *prior* to the quest, not in tens or hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime.

I'm not a game designer, but I personally would not build a game that advertises as a gear-based co-op game for tens/hundreds/thousands of hours of player time (that's what the game does by not having anything but basic checks up until TNW) and then suddenly springs a non-negotiable skill-check surprise on them at the end of the main story chain that potentially locks them out of the gear-based co-op part :P.

Your point is moot, though.

This isn't a "surprise".  It has been REPEATEDLY said to the players that you NEED TO BE PREPARED.  The pop-up prior to starting the quest makes the player unquestionably aware that there IS NO TURNING BACK, so if there is prep to do, it is to be done prior.

Everything else has NOTHING to do with preparation, as all the tools and skills and stats are EXACTLY the same for EVERY PLAYER.

If a thousand or a million players can run TNW with stuff provided, so can any other player, provided they can play basic, unmodded Warframe.

Regardless, you completely dodged my points - The Quest IS the skill-check you're asking for, and if people fail it, why would it matter if it happened sooner than later?  No matter when they encounter that check, they'd either overcome it to win, OR they'd give up and whine about it.  When that happens is largely irrelevant. 

The game is trying to GROW, and you're sitting here trying to stomp it back in its old box with "Well, you never tried to grow before, so NO GROWTH FOR YOU!"

The game gives you UNLIMITED LIVES.  You can die to the same boss FOREVER, and it is up to YOU, the player, to turn each death into an opportunity to LEARN. 

Shoot arrow. Does damage.  Charge arrow. Does MORE damage.  Archon heals?  Stop it from healing.  Too slow? Figure out how to get it faster.  Not sure of weakness?  Revisit what Hunhow said.  ABSOLUTELY STUCK?  Guides online. Plenty of 'em.

Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there is nothing "broken" about TNW. It's obviously completely doable for a large number of people.  Youtube is LITTERED with full playthroughs... Many of which ALSO did not have the benefit of having guides prior. 

People CAN learn and adapt IF they choose to.   Nothing DE does will enhance the experience if it's just "making it easier".   There's MEANT to be struggle.. it's the new friggin WAR, not the "New Scuffle Outside The Lunchroom Whilst Wearing Oven Mitts".   Good grief...

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

There are a myriad of mechanical and visual changes that are engaged for the duration of the quest, though... You can't just "back out" of them.  Hell, I'm sure a few of them trigger changes in the player's orbiter and starchart alone..   There are reasons in the code that "simply aborting" isn't really a thing, I'm sure, as well as story-driven reasons like IMMERSION. 

The player has infinite tries to beat this quest at ANY save point.  I really don't understand why people can't just keep trying and improving.  I died SO many times to the Wolf Archon.. but every time, I used my death as an opportunity to learn more about the environment, the phases, how my abilities worked, etc.  and eventually I figured out how to win.  

Simple. As. That.    Was it tough? Yeah!  But it's MEANT to be.  It's the "big quest to end all prior quests".  We've been through a TON of other stories to GET to this point!  Why is it then unreasonable to assume we'd have SOME modicum of skill, hm?

Anyone who's seen my streams knows I'm the clumsiest, noobiest MR30 you'll meet... and I STILL pulled it off.  Day 1, no guides.  

People just need more patience.

i understand your points and i agree with them completely, but seeing as some people get frustrated to the point of uninstalling the game and not coming back anymore i think this level of challenge is beyond their level of comfort, a game like warframe thrives on the amount of people that play it daily and the more the better.

i think a mercy option to skip these fights or at least some things that make the fights easier to handle is going to be a better option for the game

i remember when i bought my ps4 back in early 2014 there wasn't much to play so i only had warframe to keep me busy for awhile so i played thru all the hard parts with the under powered gear i had but then again i'm a very patient person who has time for these things.

now consider the amount of free to play games out there that have to compete for the time and attention of these gamers, a game like warframe can't afford to lose it's potential paying customers for these things, at least in my opinion it can't.

maybe and probably i'm overthinking this but i'm sure DE is going to do something about this situation if they beginning to think it's going to hurt their bottom line ...

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6 minutes ago, schilds said:

Yes? My point is that the game does not check those skills anywhere *prior* to the quest, not in tens or hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime.

I'm not a game designer, but I personally would not build a game that advertises as a gear-based co-op game for tens/hundreds/thousands of hours of player time (that's what the game does by not having anything but basic checks up until TNW) and then suddenly springs a non-negotiable skill-check surprise on them at the end of the main story chain that potentially locks them out of the gear-based co-op part :P.

Every operator based quest does this and NO ONE complained. NO ONE. The War Within and the Sacrifice both had operator play that prevented gear access. 

Honestly, this is ridiculous.

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@(PSN)JustJoshinEnt

Sorry, but I'm going to wrap up my part in this discussion because

  1. You're getting completely aggro.
  2. The argument that because *some* people can do something then *everyone* can do it, is not logically sound. I can't address a point that makes no sense to me (other than to say it makes no sense to me).
Edited by schilds
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1 minute ago, _junguler said:

i understand your points and i agree with them completely, but seeing as some people get frustrated to the point of uninstalling the game and not coming back anymore i think this level of challenge is beyond their level of comfort, a game like warframe thrives on the amount of people that play it daily and the more the better.

i think a mercy option to skip these fights or at least some things that make the fights easier to handle is going to be a better option for the game

i remember when i bought my ps4 back in early 2014 there wasn't much to play so i only had warframe to keep me busy for awhile so i played thru all the hard parts with the under powered gear i had but then again i'm a very patient person who has time for these things.

now consider the amount of free to play games out there that have to compete for the time and attention of these gamers, a game like warframe can't afford to lose it's potential paying customers for these things, at least in my opinion it can't.

maybe and probably i'm overthinking this but i'm sure DE is going to do something about this situation if they beginning to think it's going to hurt their bottom line ...

You're definitely overthinking this.  NOBODY knows what DE "needs" better than DE.  This is basically like "mansplaining" but from players to devs.  

DE knows their metrics, their financial needs, their playerbase numbers, etc.  Better than ANY of us, I'd reckon.  They DO know what they're doing.

Our little anecdotes here on the forums aren't really data points that will sway or surprise ANYONE at DE one way or another.

Steve isn't going to pop in and be like "Oh, well if "EDGE_LORD_FRED" says we need a nerf to the boss, I guess my hands are tied! I mean, I only went through TONS of schooling and YEARS of dev experience, but I mean... Fred CLEARLY knows better what's best for the game I design... so... "

DE know it's bottom line.  Leave that to DE.  Worry about YOUR experience, not theirs.

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1 minute ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Every operator based quest does this and NO ONE complained. NO ONE. The War Within and the Sacrifice both had operator play that prevented gear access. 

Honestly, this is ridiculous.

It's the *combination* of restrictions, *along with* the *combination* of skills being checked. The situation presented in TNW is unique in this respect. 

Anyhow, now we're just going in circles.

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

@(PSN)JustJoshinEnt

Sorry, but I'm going to wrap up my part in this discussion because

  1. You're getting completely aggro.
  2. The argument that because *some* people can do something that *everyone* can do something is not logically sound. I can't address a point that makes no sense to me (other than to say it makes no sense).

I'm not "aggro", my dude.  I'm simply making honest and wordy replies to make my stances clear as day.   That you interpret someone being blatant and upfront with you as "aggro" is a you thing. :/   Can't help you there.

And yeah, NOT everyone will be able to do the thing.  ISN'T it YOU who said there "should be skill checks prior"?  What do you think those checks would be for?  TO SORT OUT WHO HAS THE SKILLS AND WHO DOESN'T, lol.   Just the same as a gear check is there to tell the player "Oi! You don't have this?  Go get it before continuing..."  Same applies here.

"You weren't able to kill 'em with the weapon we gave you that kills them?  And the skills that are specifically able to counter theirs?  Get back in there and improve!"

It makes -perfect- sense.   ANY other game with any requirement for skills is by default "not accessible to everyone".   I SUCK at shooters.  I SUCK at SoulsBourne games.  Do I think they should be made "easier" to cater to my lack of skills in those areas? NO!   I simply need to improve.  

And the only way to improve is to PRACTICE... something Warframe is MORE than lenient with by giving you UNLIMITED tries with zero penalties.

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4 minutes ago, schilds said:

It's the *combination* of restrictions, *along with* the *combination* of skills being checked. The situation presented in TNW is unique in this respect. 

Anyhow, now we're just going in circles.

Not surprising, the people who liked it, liked it and the people didnt, and both sides are deeply deeply entrenched in their positions.

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