Galvanized Scope / Galvanized Crosshairs

[Tiltskillet]

tl;dr : Please give Galvanized Scope / Crosshairs the same buff stack behavior as the other Galvanized mods.  The way it is now is pretty effed up, and  even if it were bandaged up a bit would still make no sense in the context of the other mods.

 * * *

Most of the Galvanized mods have generous stack behavior.  Fulfill the conditions for Galv. Diffusion:   you get another stack and you refresh the timer for -all- your Diffusion stacks.  Let the timer expire on multiple stacks and you just lose one,  and you refresh the timer on the remaining stacks.

Galvanized Scope and Crosshairs are different.  Each stack has its own timer.  If the UI  could reflect this correctly and the timer was long enough, this could actually be fine.  But neither one is the case. 

First, the UI.  The buff icon bar only shows the timer of the most recent stack, which is probably unavoidable.  But much worse: it only updates the stack count when you generate a new stack or lose all of them. Consequently, we are losing stacks in the background and have no idea that it's happening.  Well, that's not quite true.  If your UI shows you have 5 but you've lost 4 of them and then get another headshot kill, the UI will instantly go from 5 to 2.  Two stacks is actually correct, but to the player it looks like they got a headshot but lost 3 stacks.  Hah, that has got to be driving people crazy.

If all that's not clear, I can provide video.  (And I probably will do so for the bug report part of this.)

Second, the timer.  Scope/Crosshairs have much more restrictive conditions than the other Galvanized mods.  You have to zoom in of course.  You have to get a direct damage headshot kill, which is obviously harder than -any- kill.  Not only that, but if you headshot the target but it dies from a resulting bleed, burn, or poison proc, it doesn't count.  The kill conditions on the other mods don't care about any of that.  Kill a target anywhere and however you want, as long as you were using your weapon to do it, you win.  So why do Scope/Crosshairs have 12 second timers while the status and multishot Galvanized mods mostly sit at 20?  (The one exception, Galvanized Shot is at 14 for some reason.) 

And to circle back: it's not just those  few seconds difference.  It's that, plus gaining a Scope/Crosshairs stack doesn't refresh the timer on the rest of them.   Max out Chamber stacks at 5 and you can go 99 seconds without a kill before you lose all of them.  The Galvanized crit mods, it's always 12 seconds at best.  Huge disparity.

 * * *

What I'd like:  Give these two Galvanized mods the same timer refresh behavior as the rest.  Since the buff bar seems to work for these already, hopefully that's an easy change.  I really think this will make the most sense to players, most of whom would expect similar mods to act in similar ways.   And consider lengthening the timer a bit.

Alternate suggestion:  If changing the refresh behavior isn't in the cards, at least lengthen the timers significantly and fix the buff bar so that it updates the stack counter correctly.

Alternate or extra credit suggestion:  Maybe  the condition on Scope/Crosshairs should simply be "headshots" rather than "headshot kills".   Or, figure out how to get DoT kills resulting from headshot hits to get headshot kill credit.  If either one of these can happen, than the timers aren't quite as critical. (pun intended)

Thank you.

 

 

[Prof_Blocks_007]

13 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

If all that's not clear, I can provide video.  (And I probably will do so for the bug report part of this.)

Got you covered! (decided to record video footage of this bug today, and happened to find your recently posted topic while searching the forums for existing threads about it, so I might as well post them here  )

First one, declining crit chance while the UI still displays 5x stacks (the background stack loss):

https://giant.gfycat.com/LankySpitefulLark.mp4

 

Second one, "losing" stacks on kill (the UI only updating on kill):

https://giant.gfycat.com/EnviousKindlyBirdofparadise.mp4

 

And to add a little bit of feedback of my own - it'd be nice if the on-kill stacks (+200%) could be separated from the 'while aiming' condition, so that aiming/not aiming is only the difference between +320% and +200%, instead of +320% and +0% (at full stacks).

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

Got you covered!

Awesome!  You saved me  a lot of time.  I can spend way, way too long recording, and still not get it as as clear and concise as yours.

 

6 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

And to add a little bit of feedback of my own - it'd be nice if the on-kill stacks (+200%) could be separated from the 'while aiming' condition, so that aiming/not aiming is only the difference between +320% and +200%, instead of +320% and +0% (at full stacks).

I totally agree on this 💯%.   I thought about mentioning it, but decided I'd gone on long enough.   I'm glad you did.  Honestly, one of this game's great pleasures for me has been snapfiring headshots, so I don't use these mods that much or ungrudgingly except with snipers.  Decouple some of their benefits from the aim requirement and they'll be a ton more appealing to me.

[Lutesque]

It would be simpler to just Remove The Damn Things....

I don't mean Remove them from your builds... I mean Remove Them From the game....

[Alpheus]

On 2022-01-25 at 3:23 AM, Tiltskillet said:

Alternate or extra credit suggestion:  Maybe  the condition on Scope/Crosshairs should simply be "headshots" rather than "headshot kills".   Or, figure out how to get DoT kills resulting from headshot hits to get headshot kill credit.  If either one of these can happen, than the timers aren't quite as critical. (pun intended)

A long time ago on Elder Scrolls Online, one of the problems a class had with some of their passives and abilities was that they required the player to get the killing blow to receive any benefit, which in a party of 4 or 12 with dozens of DoTs going was pretty slim. They addressed it by changing the condition from "on killing an enemy with X-type ability" to "if the enemy dies within 2 seconds of being struck".

I'd say an equivalent course of action, where a target that dies within N seconds of a headshot counts toward the stacks, would be a more forgiving condition that isn't quite as thoughtless as proccing with any old headshot like it is with Arcane Precision. 2 seconds is way too long for a game like Warframe, but 0.5 seems reasonable.

[(PSN)isbergen]

Primary Deadhead needs fixing too as it has the same stupid degradation mechanic. Of course it's on headshot kill mechanic also makes it next to useless with DOT.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-01-27 at 12:39 PM, isbergen said:

Primary Deadhead needs fixing too as it has the same stupid degradation mechanic. Of course it's on headshot kill mechanic also makes it next to useless with DOT.

It decays in the same way as the other weapon arcanes and like all but the two Gal crit mods.  The UI updates the buff counter correctly too.

The dot problem does hold them back a lot though.  Which is another reason why this...

On 2022-01-25 at 12:23 AM, Tiltskillet said:

figure out how to get DoT kills resulting from headshot hits to get headshot kill credit. 

...would be good .  

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Alpheus said:

A long time ago on Elder Scrolls Online, one of the problems a class had with some of their passives and abilities was that they required the player to get the killing blow to receive any benefit, which in a party of 4 or 12 with dozens of DoTs going was pretty slim. They addressed it by changing the condition from "on killing an enemy with X-type ability" to "if the enemy dies within 2 seconds of being struck".

I'd say an equivalent course of action, where a target that dies within N seconds of a headshot counts toward the stacks, would be a more forgiving condition that isn't quite as thoughtless as proccing with any old headshot like it is with Arcane Precision. 2 seconds is way too long for a game like Warframe, but 0.5 seems reasonable.

I think 0.5 is a little too short, but the approach is good.  I really like that it makes killstealing less of a factor too.   (Which I think tends to be a  bigger deal for headhunters than the people they're squad-ed up with.)

One ramification with either of our suggestions is that AoE weapons could leverage them, maybe unless there was special coding involved. 

But to whatever extent that encourages big AoE weapon users to consider headshots, it seems to me like there's at least some positives too.  And more precise small AoE weapons that would be even better at thisaren't particularly OP right now.   Although there are probably some I'm forgetting.

Anyway, it's something I hadn't thought about and seems worth consideration.

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

On 2022-01-26 at 2:56 AM, Lutesque said:

It would be simpler to just Remove The Damn Things....

I don't mean Remove them from your builds... I mean Remove Them From the game....

Useless suggestion.  The mods were intdroduced to "balance" guns and melee - and by in large they have - no longer is content over level 200 just people spamming melee button.

But of course the downside is now they just spam bramma/zarr.  The OP's suggestions would balance this out - in fact perhaps the non-headshot timers should behave the way the headshot currently does and vice versa - as the current timer mechanic rewards the brainless shoot big boom at your feet and punishes the single target precision player.

 

but maybe de is shooting to increase the pool (number of) of brain-dead players - perhaps they spend more plat.

[(PSN)isbergen]

54 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It decays in the same way as the other weapon arcanes and like all but the two Gal crit mods.  The UI updates the buff counter correctly too.

Re: Deadhead: Really? I could have sworn the whole stack was lost when the 1st timer expired. I'll have to check that again.

[Alpheus]

28 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

One ramification with either of our suggestions is that AoE weapons could leverage them, maybe unless there was special coding involved. 

Well Galvanized Shot's bonus already only applies to "direct" attacks rather than the AoE portion, so it wouldn't be too far a stretch to append a "headshot" requirement to a condition like that. 

[Lutesque]

On 2022-01-27 at 11:53 PM, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

Useless suggestion.  The mods were intdroduced to "balance" guns and melee - and by in large they have - no longer is content over level 200 just people spamming melee button.

Well naturally... Now you're spamming Whatever Gun you're using....

It didn't Fix the issue of Spam all it did was Change the Category in which the Spamming Occurs.... 

On 2022-01-27 at 11:53 PM, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

But of course the downside is now they just spam bramma/zarr.  The OP's suggestions would balance this out - in fact perhaps the non-headshot timers should behave the way the headshot currently does and vice versa - as the current timer mechanic rewards the brainless shoot big boom at your feet and punishes the single target precision player.

See....

It's better to Remove Them From The Game... 😝

 

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well naturally... Now you're spamming Whatever Gun you're using....

It didn't Fix the issue of Spam all it did was Change the Category in which the Spamming Occurs.... 

See....

It's better to Remove Them From The Game... 😝

 

Speaking of spam, 13k posts, most nonsense with logic like "Because  object x is green, it will rain in spain tomorrrow". 

Should play more, post less.  🤣

 

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

Speaking of spam, 13k posts, most nonsense with logic like "Because  object x is green, it will rain in spain tomorrrow". 

Exactly... Object should Be Blue.... Anybody who says Object Should Green is Just Wrong.... 😤

1 hour ago, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

Should play more, post less.  🤣

You Do You Homie.... Cause...

 

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)THE NTT said:

Speaking of spam, 13k posts, most nonsense with logic like "Because  object x is green, it will rain in spain tomorrrow". 

Should play more, post less.  🤣

 

What, no!   I value those thread bumps.   

You're doing gawd's work, Lute!

[GustavoPitanga]

Le 25/01/2022 à 05:23, Tiltskillet a dit :

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-02-05 at 9:03 AM, GustavoPitanga said:

 

First off, it looks like you're quoting me when you're not. Please fix that.

Anyway, it's a reasonable idea and would certainly be an improvement.  Especially if they could get the stack counter working properly.

But it's more complicated than just transferring the stack behavior of the other mods and/or changing it all to headshot rather than headshot kill.  To me, simplicity has some appeal.

[GustavoPitanga]

I have a suggestion to change these mods, which I believe is most likely to be added to the game.
Headshots could add 2 or 3 seconds (or a different time) to the headshot kill stack. This would make stack maintenance a lot easier making these mods more viable, all crit weapons would benefit from this change, especially those with high fire rate but also those built for cutting procs because once you have the stacks, maintenance of them would be viable.
A possible way to counterbalance this improvement if the DE deems it necessary, would be to have 6 stacks of +30% critical chance instead of 5 stacks of +40%, this would decrease the maximum critical chance offered by the mod (from 320 % to 300 % ) and it would also take a little longer to reach max critical chance.

[Tiltskillet]

I did double check this today just on the off-chance  it had been touched up along with the Gundition Overload mods, but no dice.

I forgot to link to the bug report thread, so here's that:

 

[Tiltskillet]

I've been doing some more experimenting with gas and electric procs, and need to revise a minor statement I made in this thread.  At the time I thought these procs were mostly random in what body parts they hit.  Now, while there seems to be an occasional body part hit  I can't quite explain, I'm sure it's mostly not random. 

So practically speaking, gas and electric procs can help keep Galvanized Scope/Crosshairs running, and do so in a (mostly) logical way:  hit heads, get head procs, get headshot kills with those procs.  So I deleted the bit complaining about these in the OP.   (Heat, toxin, and slash procs are unchanged, unable to hit specific bodyparts at all.)

Since I was messing around with the mods anyway, I verified that the buff counters for these mods still don't update to show stacks timing out until they're all gone.  It would be really great if that got fixed. 

And I still think the buffs themselves should work the same way as the rest of the galvanized mods:  meet the condition, add one stack to the counter, refresh the timer on all stacks.  Since the buff counters for the other galvanized mods do work correctly, perhaps  fixing this would take care of both problems.

[Nira]

Went to +1 and realised I already had previously :D

Anyways, yeah it's a change that's long overdue. No discernible reason for all the stacks to just poof on these two mods, especially considering they're the only Galvanized mods that actually require the player to do anything other than just blow stuff up.

[UdsUds]

Wouldn't it be easier to be "ON HIT" gain stack? or would it be to over powered?

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, UdsUds said:

Wouldn't it be easier to be "ON HIT" gain stack? or would it be to over powered?

Overpowered, no, not necessarily.  If so, I'd say just reduce the timer some and maybe the bonus a little. Or alternately, it could be @Alpheussuggestion upthread where there's a short "target dies within x seconds after a headshot" timer.  Either way, it would have the great advantage of  fixing the problem with procs not counting toward headshot kills. 

Even more than any of that, I'd love the "while aiming" requirement removed. 

But those are getting further from what the mods they're based off of do, or further from what the other Galvanized mods  do.   Really, if they just fixed the stack counters, and made it so headshot kills refreshed every stack, I'd be delighted.

[Tiltskillet]

The UI bug got fixed today, so at least the stack timer doesn't outright lie anymore.  That's very good news.

Given their short duration, headshot kill requirements, and mandatory ADS, the buffs would still really benefit from having the same refresh behavior as the other Galvanized mods though.  Plus it would make more sense to people using these mods for the first time to have them work on the same general principle.

If that's not in the cards I'd love it if they were entirely headshot "hit" activated.  Or if the ADS requirement was removed.  Or the most basic and conservative improvement, just increase the duration substantially.