Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[Impulse_Nine]

I've played about 4 games in my life with any seriousness. 2 of them had 1 thing in common that eventually lead to tremendous toxicity among the community: Dependence on teammates.

I'm not talking fighting alongside friendly players, as Warframe (which has a very good community I think) demonstrates- thats fine.

It stops being fine when progression becomes impossible without everyone optimising / performing a task correctly. In that situation people start having to "vet" each other for quality to be sure that this run is possible. Naturally this causes arguments, or run after run failing because people aren't filtering out those who don't know what they are doing - frequently both happen anyway. Seriously, I love Alien Swarm on Insane/Brutal but it is very nasty for new players, similar goes for Mann vs. Machine in TF2 at harder difficulties.

This eventually came to Warframe in the form of raids. I was skeptical when I heard about them and my fears proved entirely true- the game mode depended on people doing something other than pinging around the map tiles killing, and as a result (outside of dedicated groups of people who knew each other) I think most pub missions failed. Usually with a lot of swearing, shaming, and reference to peoples mothers too. I knew what I was doing in them and I wasn't having a good time- I feel genuinely sorry for the people who didnt, and had 3/4 vocal players swearing at them in the chat. Not everyone reads the wiki before playing a game after all.

 

Now, I see that survery result, wow, that is strong support for raids. Perhaps people just enjoyed the toxicity. Perhaps most people were in dedicated raiding teams and it was just pub matches that were absolute horror shows. But perhaps its strong because the alternative to saying "Yes I want more content" is to say "No I dont want more content" - and who doesnt want more content? Right?

 

More content does not mean good content though. The idea of people who dont even necessarily speak the same language working together is a nice idea, but it isnt one that works well in practice because when problems happen (and they will) it can often be impossible to fix them. Raids for a lot of people, me included, were fustrating, boring, toxic, unsatisfying, or all 4 at once.

If they are going to be brought back there will inevitably be some unique and valuable loot that cannot be acquired any other way. With the trading system being what it is, even if the rewards are tradeable, this will mean the above experience will be repeated. That isn't a good thing. You don't even need foresight to see, you can use 20/20 hindsight.

 

If raids are going to be anything more than relaxed 8 player killing sprees, then the problems of player interdependence will arise once more and the whole thing will devolve as it did before.

Somethings theoretical popularity does not determine its practical viability- for more examples of this see the difficulties in introducing hydrogen powered cars!

[DrBorris]

Ah, so because some people won't like a thing then nobody should have it. Got it. A few toxic butts mean the good people don't get to have fun.

Also, the Raid School Bus existed, one of the most welcoming subsections of the Warframe community.

[ZeroX4]

29 minutes ago, Impulse_Nine said:

I've played about 4 games in my life with any seriousness. 2 of them had 1 thing in common that eventually lead to tremendous toxicity among the community: Dependence on teammates.

I'm not talking fighting alongside friendly players, as Warframe (which has a very good community I think) demonstrates- thats fine.

It stops being fine when progression becomes impossible without everyone optimising / performing a task correctly. In that situation people start having to "vet" each other for quality to be sure that this run is possible. Naturally this causes arguments, or run after run failing because people aren't filtering out those who don't know what they are doing - frequently both happen anyway. Seriously, I love Alien Swarm on Insane/Brutal but it is very nasty for new players, similar goes for Mann vs. Machine in TF2 at harder difficulties.

This eventually came to Warframe in the form of raids. I was skeptical when I heard about them and my fears proved entirely true- the game mode depended on people doing something other than pinging around the map tiles killing, and as a result (outside of dedicated groups of people who knew each other) I think most pub missions failed. Usually with a lot of swearing, shaming, and reference to peoples mothers too. I knew what I was doing in them and I wasn't having a good time- I feel genuinely sorry for the people who didnt, and had 3/4 vocal players swearing at them in the chat. Not everyone reads the wiki before playing a game after all.

 

Now, I see that survery result, wow, that is strong support for raids. Perhaps people just enjoyed the toxicity. Perhaps most people were in dedicated raiding teams and it was just pub matches that were absolute horror shows. But perhaps its strong because the alternative to saying "Yes I want more content" is to say "No I dont want more content" - and who doesnt want more content? Right?

 

More content does not mean good content though. The idea of people who dont even necessarily speak the same language working together is a nice idea, but it isnt one that works well in practice because when problems happen (and they will) it can often be impossible to fix them. Raids for a lot of people, me included, were fustrating, boring, toxic, unsatisfying, or all 4 at once.

If they are going to be brought back there will inevitably be some unique and valuable loot that cannot be acquired any other way. With the trading system being what it is, even if the rewards are tradeable, this will mean the above experience will be repeated. That isn't a good thing. You don't even need foresight to see, you can use 20/20 hindsight.

 

If raids are going to be anything more than relaxed 8 player killing sprees, then the problems of player interdependence will arise once more and the whole thing will devolve as it did before.

Somethings theoretical popularity does not determine its practical viability- for more examples of this see the difficulties in introducing hydrogen powered cars!

Omg you are 100% right
Let's go even further

Because we don't like things that some ppl post on forums let's remove ability to make new posts

This would solve the problem

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

If they bring back raids, do not play them if you do not like them. If DE puts some loot you really want behind them, just farm stuff, sell it, and buy the raid loot with plat. Why shouldn't raids brought back if the majority wants them back? I don't like doing Tridolons, but you don't see me go around shouting about Tridolons should be removed from the game.

[TheArmchairThinker]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)Viveeeh said:

If they bring back raids, do not play them if you do not like them. If DE puts some loot you really want behind them, just farm stuff, sell it, and buy the raid loot with plat. Why shouldn't raids brought back if the majority wants them back? I don't like doing Tridolons, but you don't see me go around shouting about Tridolons should be removed from the game.

You see people saying conclave should be removed and the rewards moved elsewhere, that kind of player just exist

[SneakyErvin]

As someone who has raided since DaoC through several different MMOs I can safely say that raids have been the most toxic content to take part in, even more so than PvP. DaoC was the exception due to uhm... "open" raids. Where you kinda ran to a raid and just joined up with people and slaughtered your way through it while others were also there slaughtering their way through it, or in the case of Darkness Falls, enemy factions tried to slaughter you and the raid bosses as you tried to slaughter the raid bosses and the enemy faction.

And that was in games where you actually had a foundation to build the raids on, which WF doesnt have, not even on the very distant horizon. I think many people that want "raids" havent actually experienced a raid and all that comes with them that makes them unique and engaging. I've played "raids" in arpg style games that have lacked the foundation and they are as lackluster as content can get with no actaul reason to be a raid except for having an increased arbitrary player number. Atleast those have been in games with dedicated servers, so no host migration crap, which is also a big drawback in WF. 

Those people that really want that genuine WF raid feeling, you can always just run a friend-door map with a friend (or pug) over and over, the mechanics are nearly identical to that of a raid.

[Impulse_Nine]

The "If you dont like it dont play it" argument is quite right as long as the loot at the end of it is functionally irrelevant. Consider conclave- lots of people dont like it and lots of people dont play it, no problems there. The rewards are only useful in conclave.

The problem with raids was that Arcanes were/are not at all irrelevant. Energise is so powerful it has been nerfed and I still think it makes a huge impact on many builds in all PvE environments- and I think many other arcanes make a really big difference too. If you're playing Warframe, you'll be wanting those arcanes.

This lead to lots of people feeling compelled to do a thing they didn't really want to do, because they did (very reasonably) want the loot at the end of it- and lots of toxicity flowed from that. It wasn't a few people, it was lots!

If raids only lead to Raid-related powerups, then sure, as with conclave, no problem- I just doubt that will be what happens if they reintroduce them, and there are many *many* other more pressing matters DE need to be looking at first.

 

About the importance of popularity though- I came to this game from another game called Planetside 2. That game started out quite interesting. Its pure PVP so the Devs (rightly) kept a close eye on balance. They also were lead by community feedback. But this ended up managing to kill the game for me and many others.

From community feedback, differences between factions were slowly ironed out to the point that most combat, regardless of faction, was basically the same experience, with functionally identical guns, tanks, and planes. It got boring. PS2 is still going, but has a fraction of the player base it used to (although there were a couple of reasons for that, its true).

Community feedback *is* very important, but it isnt a substitution for a professionally employed game developer.

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Viveeeh said:

If they bring back raids, do not play them if you do not like them.

And people didn't play it because of what OP talked about. This is why they ended up being pulled with Arcanes moved to Eidolons, because literally barely 1% of the entire community utilised them. Not good, especially when that 1% became extremely wealthy in regards to platinum, with some of them using it for RMT.

I get the feeling most people asking for raids aren't actually asking for raids at all, and are more so just wanting more challenging/difficult content as a whole. Such a thing doesn't have to come in the form of raids.

Mirroring Ervin, I've played enough MMO's in my life with 'raids' to know just how well they turn out to be. Spoilers: they were all just as--if not more--toxic than PvP... let's not go down that route please. The day Warframe's community turns into a toxic cesspit akin to most MMO's will probably be the final nail for me.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said:

The "If you dont like it dont play it" argument is quite right as long as the loot at the end of it is functionally irrelevant.

But what about Arbitrations, Sorties, SP, Eidolon Hunts, Orbs, Railjack, Liches, Sisters, Deimos, Grendel, mining, fishing, TNW, or any other piece of content not everyone likes that has rewards locked behind it? The pattern so far has been pretty clear: if want the reward, you need to either play for it or pay for it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Yea, I didn't wanna be that guy, but watch all the complaints roll in....because some guy with 6 roommates all on wifi causes a host to migrate 30min into a raid, causing people to lose loot. 

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

This thread is horrific.

"I think other people shouldn't be allowed to have nice things because sometimes people are big meanieheads!". 

HUSH. 

[CoffeeElemental]

Yeah, as if Eidolons/Orbs weren't enough for people (and i almost like those things). As if having to withstand 3 other idiots in a squad (let's be honest here - most of the pubs are like that) wasn't enough for people - they want more of it.

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, Impulse_Nine said:

It stops being fine when progression becomes impossible without everyone optimising / performing a task correctly. In that situation people start having to "vet" each other for quality to be sure that this run is possible. Naturally this causes arguments, or run after run failing because people aren't filtering out those who don't know what they are doing - frequently both happen anyway. Seriously, I love Alien Swarm on Insane/Brutal but it is very nasty for new players, similar goes for Mann vs. Machine in TF2 at harder difficulties.

This eventually came to Warframe in the form of raids. I was skeptical when I heard about them and my fears proved entirely true- the game mode depended on people doing something other than pinging around the map tiles killing, and as a result (outside of dedicated groups of people who knew each other) I think most pub missions failed. Usually with a lot of swearing, shaming, and reference to peoples mothers too. I knew what I was doing in them and I wasn't having a good time- I feel genuinely sorry for the people who didnt, and had 3/4 vocal players swearing at them in the chat. Not everyone reads the wiki before playing a game after all.

You know, in retrospect this explains how "That's a 50 DKP Minus!" happened

[vanaukas]

I Think EIdolon hunting shows how toxic an idea of coordination in WF can be. People is still being insulted because they don't know the exact pixel where they should put themselves at X m above the ground in archwing to make vombayst spawn faster.

That being said, I don't think player toxicity should be a reason to avoid making content, in the same way that I do believe on free speech IRL despite the enormous ammounts of censorship everywhere to "avoid toxicity", which not only doesn't solve the issue, but radicalizes those who are punished for it.

[Hypernaut1]

people like the IDEA of raids, but LoR wasnt great. Personally, i think a dual railjack crew raid mission with each crew completing objectives simultaneously could be a good starting point for raid like content. 

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

people like the IDEA of raids, but LoR wasnt great. Personally, i think a dual railjack crew raid mission with each crew completing objectives simultaneously could be a good starting point for raid like content. 

I think this is where the OP has it totally wrong.

There are ways to create RAIDS that don't require a level of cooperation that doesn't really work for a PUB. 

They just need to make one. Hopefully the long teased pseudo-raid for the third orb hits the mark -- time will tell. 

LOR's issue was that without full coordination, it was relatively impossible. But that doesn't mean RAIDS are inherently toxic and shouldn't be brought back. 

[vanaukas]

4 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But that doesn't mean RAIDS are inherently toxic and shouldn't be brought back. 

Nah dude, let's be honest, raids in every game are toxic AF because require a lot of coordinated effort, unless they are dumbed down and then forgotten because they aren't exciting anymore. Take WoW as prime example of this.

[DreisterDino]

You know what?

 

I will just let you keep your grudge over Raids and not gonna try to argue against it.

In the meantime, i will just happily wait for Raids to come back which will hopefully offer some meaningful co-op content with a slight challenge and something to do with Friends or Clanmates which has been missing in Warframe for way too long already, and several surveys have shown quiet a few people are looking forward to this.

 

  

Am 3.3.2022 um 19:16 schrieb [DE]Dudley:

It’s exciting to see that a majority of the results align with our current aspirations for Warframe.

Vice versa, i am excited to see how future Raids will look like and hope they will make good use of Railjack and/or Open Worlds for example, which in my opinion are two locations which offer great Raid-potential. Maybe future Raids turn out to be lackluster, but if they are good it might be the best thing happen to Warframe in years.

[Darkduprey]

Il y a 11 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

As someone who has raided since DaoC through several different MMOs I can safely say that raids have been the most toxic content to take part in, even more so than PvP.

Well as someone who cumulates 13k hours of gameplay in games with both PvP and raids pretty much evenly shared between the two activities, I can safely say that this sentence is either a troll of a fake from someone who tried two raids and three PvP matches in his gamer life.

 

Raids are something you are supposed to do with an organised group that you will play with for weeks, months, potentially even years.

If you find this group toxic and do not simply move to an other group (and there is a TON to choose from), you are the problem. Changing guild/clan/whatever in an MMO is never a problem.

 

Il y a 11 heures, Impulse_Nine a dit :

This lead to lots of people feeling compelled to do a thing they didn't really want to do, because they did (very reasonably) want the loot at the end of it- and lots of toxicity flowed from that. It wasn't a few people, it was lots!

I mean, they moved Arcanes to Eidolons which I believe is far worst than raids have ever been (BOTH the content itself and the toxicity of people playing it), so I'm not sure how the current situation is any better?

[Crevab]

13 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

 let's remove ability to make new posts

 

Were  you trying to make that seem like a negative thing?

[PollexMessier]

I literally just want more 3d emblems.

I really doubt it'll be an issue though. The difficulty vote for it was highly in favor of sortie level which is easily manageable by the time you get to it already. If they go with that I dont think it's gonna be an issue. I rarely run into players that are so badly geared they cant contribute even in steel path.

I joined the game while trials were still around but they were removed by the time I felt far enough in the game to actually try them and I'm not happy about it. I want them back. I feel like I was cheated out those emblems because DE was just too lazy to maintain it.

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

Nah dude, let's be honest, raids in every game are toxic AF because require a lot of coordinated effort, unless they are dumbed down and then forgotten because they aren't exciting anymore. Take WoW as prime example of this.

I think RAIDS are a form of free speech. 

It is censorship to take away RAIDS because some people can be toxic, just like it is censorship to take away using the "g word" because some people abuse it, even though it shouldn't have any negative connotation.

All restrictions on free speech do are radicalize and isolate the people who are more problematic, and they will just spread their toxicity elsewhere imo. It also sweeps the problem under the rug (human behavior) instead of taking real steps to address it. 

I think it is a necessary evil to allow free speech by making all forms of content even if it is potentially contentious, and let support sort out the really bad ones who go too far. 

[vanaukas]

6 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think RAIDS are a form of free speech. 

It is censorship to take away RAIDS because some people can be toxic, just like it is censorship to take away using the "g word" because some people abuse it, even though it shouldn't have any negative connotation.

All restrictions on free speech do are radicalize and isolate the people who are more problematic, and they will just spread their toxicity elsewhere imo. It also sweeps the problem under the rug (human behavior) instead of taking real steps to address it. 

I think it is a necessary evil to allow free speech by making all forms of content even if it is potentially contentious, and let support sort out the really bad ones who go too far. 

But I agree on that, I'm just saying raids are toxic because requires literal strangers to cooperate. Above us a guy talks about how raids aren't toxic because you are in a group for "weeks, months or even years"... But public raids are the ones with issues (and yes, those exists). And it's the same with PVP. Of course in a choesive group you won't have much issues, but in public games everything is a mess in every single genre of videogame that have online features. For some reason some people find their fun on griefing other players and nothing can stop that behavior.

I'm completely OK with raids coming back, I don't care if they are toxic, but I won't deny those issues in order to have them back (as some users have done here). I'm just hoping for a good experience overall and, hopefully, not a sensory overload like Eidolons or Profit Taker.

[Tesseract7777]

17 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

But I agree on that, I'm just saying raids are toxic because requires literal strangers to cooperate. Above us a guy talks about how raids aren't toxic because you are in a group for "weeks, months or even years"... But public raids are the ones with issues (and yes, those exists). And it's the same with PVP. Of course in a choesive group you won't have much issues, but in public games everything is a mess in every single genre of videogame that have online features. For some reason some people find their fun on griefing other players and nothing can stop that behavior.

I'm completely OK with raids coming back, I don't care if they are toxic, but I won't deny those issues in order to have them back (as some users have done here). I'm just hoping for a good experience overall and, hopefully, not a sensory overload like Eidolons or Profit Taker.

I get what you are saying, I think. 

One thing people forget (heck some weren't even around for it) is that they were already trying to make it at least somewhat difficult to jump into a LOR or JV with a bunch of rando's. You had to have a key, and manually invite people using recruit chat. 

And I believe you only got one run a day. So people were a lot more careful setting up.

You can run eidolons and profit taker all you want all day long, and there is an option where you can join total randoms and just pop in together, and imo that may not be a great idea. 

I understand some people want everything pubbable and that used to be me, but I am not sure everything works as a pub without an unreasonable amount of chaos. 

Just Teralyst or PT with rando's is one thing, but doing say the entire lot of eidolons, now that is a different story. Lot's that can go wrong along the way from the pure chaos of random people. 

[Darkduprey]

il y a 49 minutes, vanaukas a dit :

But I agree on that, I'm just saying raids are toxic because requires literal strangers to cooperate. Above us a guy talks about how raids aren't toxic because you are in a group for "weeks, months or even years"... But public raids are the ones with issues (and yes, those exists).

If I were the one to design them they would not exist, because I do not think such content should be allowed for non pre-made group at all.