Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[Surbusken]

You also have to factor in the grind, which is the actual challenge.

Playing content 30-80 times for a 10 plat mod, no one is going to be in the mood for an 'epic' fight, meaning hard to figure out, takes longer and has a high fail rate.

Then you have to waste additional time and aggravation finding a group and deal with negativity.

 

10 years in they still trying to box everything into neat little generic genres from 1998, trying to find out what fun gameplay is.

Maybe we can copy-paste the raid formula from mmos?!?!?!11

When you are no closer after 10 years maybe it's time to throw in the towel and just accept you just aren't creative if copy-pasting is mostly your style.

You'd also assume they had plenty of experience with adding successful gameplay in their own game and drawing from those conclusions.

Then again maybe not, it was their call to add fishing, mining, railjack, k-drives and so on and generating fake metrics by gating rewards behind hated content.

I guess they sabotaged their own progression and learning on that one.

 

 

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

You also have to factor in the grind, which is the actual challenge.

Playing content 30-80 times for a 10 plat mod, no one is going to be in the mood for an 'epic' fight, meaning hard to figure out, takes longer and has a high fail rate.

Then you have to waste additional time and aggravation finding a group and deal with negativity.

 

10 years in they still trying to box everything into neat little generic genres from 1998, trying to find out what fun gameplay is.

Maybe we can copy-paste the raid formula from mmos?!?!?!11

When you are no closer after 10 years maybe it's time to throw in the towel and just accept you just aren't creative if copy-pasting is mostly your style.

You'd also assume they had plenty of experience with adding successful gameplay in their own game and drawing from those conclusions.

Then again maybe not, it was their call to add fishing, mining, railjack, k-drives and so on and generating fake metrics by gating rewards behind hated content.

I guess they sabotaged their own progression and learning on that one.

 

 

 

 

You know if you check the recent survey results, the only thing most people truly don't care about was K-Drive racing, right?

Despite all the grousing from angry, loud individuals, the survey made clear almost everything else from open worlds was really popular. 

I guess you sabotaged your own post since you didn't even read the survey. You would assume you have plenty of experience giving feedback from your post count, but then again, maybe not, considering the drivel you just posted. 

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

5 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

You also have to factor in the grind, which is the actual challenge.

Playing content 30-80 times for a 10 plat mod, no one is going to be in the mood for an 'epic' fight, meaning hard to figure out, takes longer and has a high fail rate.

Then you have to waste additional time and aggravation finding a group and deal with negativity.

 

10 years in they still trying to box everything into neat little generic genres from 1998, trying to find out what fun gameplay is.

Maybe we can copy-paste the raid formula from mmos?!?!?!11

When you are no closer after 10 years maybe it's time to throw in the towel and just accept you just aren't creative if copy-pasting is mostly your style.

You'd also assume they had plenty of experience with adding successful gameplay in their own game and drawing from those conclusions.

Then again maybe not, it was their call to add fishing, mining, railjack, k-drives and so on and generating fake metrics by gating rewards behind hated content.

I guess they sabotaged their own progression and learning on that one.

 

 

 

 

Look I'm sorry that you expected an F2P live service game to completely revolutionize online coop gameplay and it failed to meet your lofty standards. But have you considered you just ended up spouting utter nonsense drivel in your desperate attempts to be as condescending as possible.

1/10 no passing marks, try to have a point besides DAE 10 YEAR OLD GAME HARDSTUCK??!?! ME SO SMART FOR NOTICING OLD GAEM!!!!?!?! next time. 

[TheRealDestian]

22 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

DE already tried that approach once and it ended up making community growth hard to sustain in the long term.

Players who engage with the content right away get the rewards quickly since everyone is playing the newest thing, if there are no rewards worth comimg back, a lot of players simply won't bother to come back after obtaining these prestige items.

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean.

The solution there is a slow burn currency or resource that you can get from raids weekly that's useful. They can also do things like grant bonuses for running older content with a random squad as FFXIV has done this exact thing to wonderful effect.

[NecroPed]

If raids are to return I think they should have a solo practice mode(maybe even require solo completion once to unlock squad). That way people don't have to learn in a pub game or by watching videos and people will be more likely to find people who have at least completed the raid once. 

Another thing I'd like to see is having all the stages achievable (but difficult) by one person, but far more forgiving if teamwork is used. I know it might seem a bit against the idea of raids, but I think something that is achievable by a single person can help alleviate the frustration of team mates not managing so well. 

Something I don't want to see is stationary stages where we can't move. I'm happy with being limited to smaller rooms, but I don't like having movement taken away, and I think it goes against warframes core gameplay.

[(XBOX)FireX2K]

Raids had multiple issues with it that if DE don't address it before its re-release will result in its downfall. Here are some I am aware of.

1) Needs a dedicated server. Having 1 player supporting the connections of 7 others is a recipe for disaster especially for those with not so good connections and if you apply cross play those w/ different systems.

I am sure many vets from the old days, knew which members of your clan have the best connection so if you want to go for wave 60/ 60 min tower keys run, you pick them so you won't d/c and potentially lose the rewards. Well Raids exacerbated this situation. 

I remember back with LoR was the only raid at the time, only 2 ppl within my clan who knew how to run it and were willing to help others run it were able to handle all 8 members w/o issues. Most of the clan members once understood the raid tried to set one up themselves only to struggle hard on stability the 5-6th member and completely d/c out on 8th. Now think of this occurring across all systems. Toxicity will rise because people who spend time waiting and preparing only to d/c part way will lead to only the few bother trying.

2) Difficulty. This can be kinda fixed by have separate difficulties like norm, nightmare, SP.

3) Rewards. This might be difficult because originally the arcanes were suppose to be here but with them being on eidolons now, DE needs to add a new kind of reward. If the rewards are a joke, then no one will both with them like with OV.

[Surbusken]

Like I said, the negativity you are displaying right now is examplifying the OP's point.

I mean you lost it, you couldn't tread water for 20 seconds in a calm, objective debate without going off.

So there you have it.

[Voltage]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Guys, you don't actually want raid, you just want to play raid with a perfectly coherent team, while in reality most of the time you will play with a random squad that 2/4 of them dunno how raid works.

The former is exactly what I want as it's a multiplayer game. The latter won't happen to me. The real world works like this too. You have to build a  competent group when there's a project/task to be completed. The people who sign up for it but aren't capable don't last very long in the group. I don't know why gamers see this as "toxic" or "mean". It's called life. 

[Pizzarugi]

I agree with OP. If eidolons are anything to go by, raids stifle build variety which is self-enforced by the community because X Frame's kit is overall a great deal more useful than Y Frame's. And just like eidolons, I expect to see only 4-6 frames and a handful of weapons only being considered 'viable' and anything else means you're either a noob, a leech, or a troll griefing the team. If you happen to enjoy one of many frames and weapons that aren't considered good for eidolons, you're simply just left out with no other options besides grinding to try and get something valuable in order to trade for the rewards in said exclusive activity.

Does anyone still remember how expensive Arcane Energize used to be, back when you had to do raids to even have a chance at getting it? Yeah, good luck earning your way to buying that.

Anything that tends to require coordination between teammates often results in toxic practices that ultimately stifle enjoyment. Gating good rewards behind it will only further encourage a festering of that toxicity. There's nothing wrong with asking for a complex and perhaps difficult activity to be implemented in the game, goodness knows I'd like Warframe to have some kind of endgame to challenge veterans, but finding ways to add it without excluding a majority of players is easier said than done. Raids are one such activity that excludes a majority of players.

[--END--Rikutatis]

Goodness, some of you guys are extremely selfish. So basically because you enjoy a more casual and solo playstyle and refuse to do coop content (which is totally in your right, lately I've been playing WF solo-casual as well), but you also want to make sure NO ONE else in the game can enjoy raids or other complex coop content? Cause god forbid coop content that requires coordination among players and clan mates in a coop online game right? Cause somehow you feel entitled to have absolutely everything that exists in the game.

Yes, PUGs and public matches do have toxic players sometimes (and they are wrong, if they only want to play with knowledgeable and efficient players, they should join a clan or only group with friends). However the experience is usually much better and more smooth in established clans and communities. Just join one that fits your playstyle - from casual and chill to sweaty hardcore, all of them exist within WF. And if you don't want to join clans or interact with other people, then simply don't play raids, let other people enjoy them. Spend some money on plat (or farm it) and buy the gameplay rewards from other players who do raids. Or do some FOMO treatment and accept it that you don't need to have every single item and cosmetic that exists in the game. 

I don't even care about these upcoming raids, I doubt DE can make good raids anyways because of broken gameplay and power creep, but this mentality is what keeps sinking this game into mediocrity, not the other way around. Everything must be hyper casual, easy, solo friendly, etc etc. You guys say toxic raids kill games, yet some of the most famous and successful MMO/looter/coop games in history also happen to be the ones with the absolute best raids: WoW, FF14, Destiny 1 and 2, etc. Yea, only a small percentage of the player base end up successfully completing the hardest raids in those games, and yet they still thrive. It's just something to be aspired for by everyone. Gives purpose to the grind, and a long term goal to aspire to. 

 

[Surbusken]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

The former is exactly what I want as it's a multiplayer game. The latter won't happen to me. The real world works like this too. You have to build a  competent group when there's a project/task to be completed. The people who sign up for it but aren't capable don't last very long in the group. I don't know why gamers see this as "toxic" or "mean". It's called life. 

To stay with your analogy:

A video game is a consumer product i.e. the opposite of 'job performance', where it then obviously also functions the reverse of your analogy.

 

It's entirely and exclusively up to the sellers to win over the customer, give them what they want and make the sale.

The customer is free to complain, make any outlandish requests they want, pack up their money and leave with zero obligations of any kind.

So, no, it doesn't 'function like that' at all, not even remotely, a little bit, not even at all.

 

And yeah sure, if you want to talk about 'groups' in society, lol, then yeah... enough said?

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

You know if you check the recent survey results, the only thing most people truly don't care about was K-Drive racing, right?

Despite all the grousing from angry, loud individuals, the survey made clear almost everything else from open worlds was really popular. 

I guess you sabotaged your own post since you didn't even read the survey. You would assume you have plenty of experience giving feedback from your post count, but then again, maybe not, considering the drivel you just posted. 

Honestly it looks like open worlds are rather lukewarm in their reception given how 3/4 is the most common answer (honestly no idea why they went with 1-6 instead of 1-5) for all of it aside from racing and exploring, where one is far more disliked and the other more popular. I just wouldnt consider something with an avarage between 3-4 out of 6 as really popular. Only "exploring", which gets old fast, sits at 50% of the players with a 5/6 ranking.

[bad4youLT]

I guess you haven't seen or heard about 7-8 Tridolon run groups , they been here for a long time and the game and community is fine .

I wasn't die hard fan of Raids back then they were here but I did enjoy them for the most part , all of my runs of LoR and JV were public and while I was able to complete JV only once ( last stage is nightmare if you don't know what to do ) the LoR was pretty chill as long as everyone knew what to do .

Only Nightmare LoR really required strict and tight team control that needed seasoned veterans .

From your post I'm judging that you had no experience with Raids then they were here because if you did you would have know they were less toxic then try hard Tridolon runs as those are time gated and highly depend on each player competence .

[Hayrack]

remindMe

They're gonna lock some Warframe behind Raids, mark my words.

 

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2022-03-05 at 2:14 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

conclave that made it end up as the most isolated content island in the whole game. 

I think this is mainly due to it being a PVP mode, something that not a lot of people like engaging with, especially since the majority of the game is centered around PVE. Now, if the mode could be something like the DZ from Division (a mix), then more people might actually play more.

[----Legacy----]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

I think this is mainly due to it being a PVP mode, something that not a lot of people like engaging with, especially since the majority of the game is centered around PVE. Now, if the mode could be something like the DZ from Division (a mix), then more people might actually play more.

Back in the day gameplay wasn't as braindead as it is today. DE encouraged competition even in PvE through events (trophies where exclusive to the top clans of each tier) and you would even see the staff play full lobby pvp on prime time amd people engaged with it.

The decay came after the PvP events where a small amount of loud self entitled players made a huge fuss over being <<<forced>>> to play pvp to get the event rewards, even though these could already be obtained in many other ways, like alerts and invasions. They also made a fuss over some really petty things like a stratos emblem (which was later removed).

Half related PS: i think it's kinda fun when people say "X content is toxic" while totally disregarding and even normalizing toxicity towards anyone who enjoys said "X content" since it highlights the "stop enjoying what i don't like" hipocryte mindset of many people in this community.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

3 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

and you would even see the staff play full lobby pvp on prime time amd people engaged with it.

Who wouldn't want a shot at members of a games' staff? Just think of players of Halo 3 who were the first to get the achievement for beating Bungie staff in multiplayer.

[SneakyErvin]

48 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

remindMe

They're gonna lock some Warframe behind Raids, mark my words.

Yep, sadly that will happen since that is the DE appraoch to get people into the content they wanna push. Even though I for instance enjoy RJ, I can still see it as troublesome for some to see frames locked behind it.

4 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Half related PS: i think it's kinda fun when people say "X content is toxic" while totally disregarding and even normalizing toxicity towards anyone who enjoys said "X content" since it highlights the "stop enjoying what i don't like" hipocryte mindset of many people in this community.

That isnt really being toxic though, that is having an opinion and speaking from experience (hopefully, since otherwise how would they know if it is toxic or not?). I think it is less about telling people not to enjoy it and more that they highlight actual issues that likely will arise from it. I mean, like with raids and PvP, it isnt some new or rare thing that they both breed toxicity in different forms and it isnt like WF would be immune to those side effects. And in WF's case it wouldnt be out of the ordinary bad either if the game was made like those other games, but in the end it isnt. We wont only get the regular toxicity based on the mode itself and the elitism regarding choices etc. It will also come down to outside factors like connectivity since that is how WF is set up. Ontop of it all, WF doesnt have the mechanical foundation to produce "good" raids, since it will all be arbitrary mechanics that may serve just as well in a 4 man group or solo for that matter.

Other companies have realized that in their attempts at similar "non structured" raid setting, where they've released full blown raids only to later reconsider reworking them into small group or solo content, because the mechanics were just arbitrary to increase number of players needed, without any actual valuble engagement for the whole group. Which in reality is a must in order for raids to have a reason and be raids. Each player must be engaged, otherwise, what is the point for an increased mandatory group size?

[----Legacy----]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Who wouldn't want a shot at members of a games' staff? Just think of players of Halo 3 who were the first to get the achievement for beating Bungie staff in multiplayer.

Nice nitpick, though. And even though you may be right, the point is more about how DE advertising content to push it is a good thing. The issue comes from how they always focus on pushing the next new thing while warframe has so much content already that many things are forgotten and left to rot with little to no maintenance or straight up in an unfinished state, sometimes for entire years since they just move on and rarely look back.

[PerishedFraud]

On 2022-03-04 at 12:51 PM, Impulse_Nine said:

Snip

[----Legacy----]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt really being toxic though, that is having an opinion and speaking from experience (hopefully, since otherwise how would they know if it is toxic or not?).

A lot of people won't see it as toxic simply because they are probably on the same side as the ones being toxic, which normalizes toxicity towards certain groups.

On a sidenote, there's a difference between "talking from experience" -which is right- and "making assumptions" -which is wrong-. Especially when we think about how different is people, how environment shapes behaviors, and how a lot of those assumptions (usually disguised as "experience") are actually players projecting themselves or their fears and making a slippery slope out of it.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, like with raids and PvP, it isnt some new or rare thing that they both breed toxicity in different forms and it isnt like WF would be immune to those side effects.

And this is exactly what i mean in the previous segment. Some people love to claim that pvp is toxic by itself, yet rarely ever bother to interact with pvp focused communities to see how these actually are.

Fwiw, competitive people just want a good fight against others similar or even higher skilled players to improve and help others to get better in order to have more fun opponents to fight against, which also provides a reason to become even better (reason why the skill gap has become so wide for conclave since PvE doesn't encourage any way of learning other than modding, which takes a step back in PvP).

Toxicity in PvP usually comes from the frustration of people who cares more about rewards (syndicate standing, a rank, a leaderboard position, whatever) than about improving.

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And in WF's case it wouldnt be out of the ordinary bad either if the game was made like those other games, but in the end it isnt. We wont only get the regular toxicity based on the mode itself and the elitism regarding choices etc. It will also come down to outside factors like connectivity since that is how WF is set up.

This only shows a huge failure on community management. Everything in the game is so easy that players have developed a strong atychiphobia, so players will do whatever it takes to avoid even taking the chance to fail a mission, going as far as blaming everyone else for mission failures -sometimes even before failure becomes imminent- while refusing to see their role in such failure. DE's focus on rewards over gameplay is another thing to keep in mind here.

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF doesnt have the mechanical foundation to produce "good" raids, since it will all be arbitrary mechanics that may serve just as well in a 4 man group or solo for that matter.

I'd say warframe (the game) does indeed have good mechanical foundation for raids. The real issue is -imo- how the lack of a defined power ceiling makes the devs unable to develop content that challenges players without arbitrary mechanics; and how powercreep removes any need to engage deeply with warframe's mechanical aspect.

33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Each player must be engaged, otherwise, what is the point for an increased mandatory group size?

This is what i hated the most about old raids, the "CC everything and let someone else handle the puzzle" approach encouraged by RSB which basically gave them "students" who would be nothing but CC batteries to trivialize enemies while "instructors" got to play the game without enemies.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-03-05 at 2:49 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

In this particular topic the OP is not advocating for design checks or better user experience that Norman promotes , he is advocating for complete access denial to everyone just because he himself does not like it and is either incapable or unwilling to handle it via other means , which is what i have problems with.

I see nothing wrong with Scrapping the whole thing since we know DE isn't going bother with any of that....

On 2022-03-05 at 2:49 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

That is the equivalent of saying , "nobody gets cake cause i am diabetic." , it sounds like the tantrums of a petulant child.

Well if the Baker doesn't Acknowledge Diabetes exists then Yes... Nobody Should Get Cake....

On 2022-03-05 at 2:49 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

 

You cannot build for idiocy or toxicity while also allowing for freedom of choice and speech,

Unless you want to limit the game to canned chat with extremely linear game play , which might as well be solo.

It's a Good Start 👍 !!!

On 2022-03-05 at 2:49 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

And since you feel the need to quote the father of UX , perhaps you can give some advice on how you would design some checks to avoid such behaviors and experiences?

No Idea....

I guess one thing I could do is just remove the Cooldown from on call Crew and Triple it so that you can summon all three of them...

Then I don't have to care about everybody elses Behavior....

 

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The issue comes from how they always focus on pushing the next new thing while warframe has so much content already that many things are forgotten and left to rot with little to no maintenance or straight up in an unfinished state, sometimes for entire years since they just move on and rarely look back.

Warframe players try to burn me at the stakes when I say I'm not as bored with Warframe as some veterans are because during "content droughts" I still enjoy Conclave lol 

Imagine that. Something to do during content droughts. A fast mobility-focused PvP shooter with basically endless learning curve. Imagine Warframe retaining just a little bit more players between major PvE updates and DE saving themselves that much little bit more room before rushing out the next new thing and then moving onto the next new thing. 

I know veteran PvE players ask for sustainable PvE content precisely because they don't want to be bored with Warframe. These are frustrations stemming entirely from liking the game and I'll always respect that. But sustainable PvE content is a tall order even in smaller and better balanced games. I don't believe Warframe's years of mistakes and power creep will allow for interesting PvE design, let alone a sustainable one, unless players are willing to accept dealing with power creep involves some hard nerfs. 

But that last sentence is the most difficult part, isn't it? When I say DE painted themselves into this corner I don't mean solely in terms of design space. They've ended up fostering a loud section of a population that is completely averse to any kind of challenge or failure or even paying attention to the game they're playing. And they managed to do this all in spite of Warframe's excellent core mechanics. It's almost impressive. 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

Link to survey results?

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

Never mind, found it