Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[Kontrollo]

Oh yeah, here's a bit of advice:

For the people who -- for one reason or another -- are not going to have a good time or don't want to engage with raids once they return; the 99% PvE content that isn't raids will still be there after the fact, anyway. So no need to worry.

Also, just make yourself heard that you want any rewards tradeable that you would hate to miss out on. Then you can just keep playing what you already like and let the market handle the rest.

[DreisterDino]

I just had a crazy thought... lets look at this again:

https://imgur.com/elsaWs8

 

So what about this: Instead of trying to fight against the addition of raids, maybe accept the results of a democratic survey which clearly show that ~84% of the players want to see Raids in Warframe again (voted 4/5/6). And from the remaining ~16%, only 6% are completly against the addition of Raids. We can only guess what the thoughts behind voting 2/3 are, but i guess its safe to say that even those people are not completely against Raids, because why wouldn't you just vote 1 then?

 

Spoiler

But i guess instead of accepting this simple fact, people rather start arguing over things like how a survey with over 70k participants isnt representative, why a person who voted 4 is clearly against Raids or how people all together are just clueless and shouldnt have been asked to begin with /s

 

[Darkduprey]

Le 05/03/2022 à 15:41, SneakyErvin a dit :

I'm probably gonna sounds like a total jerk here but 13k hours is pocket lint if you wanna throw a number around to try and prove something, which is why I never did it and instead just said I've experienced raids since DaoC. If I were to put an hour number on each activity I'd likely end up at around 20k+ hours on each, then maybe 20k+ hours ontop of that on other things aswell, including less "hardcore" dedication to raids and PvP, and that is with me not actually accounting for my unhealthy amount of time spent per day in my younger years. Part of these raid and pvp activities were also combined into one in a couple of games, both with more or less PvE focus.

Fair enough.

I don't think it makes you sound like a jerk, it's important to take into account your amount of experience in the subject when doing such an analysis, and well I started it anyway so I have no room to complain do I? :p

However it seems our respectives thousands hours of gameplay led to very different experiences.
 

Le 05/03/2022 à 15:41, SneakyErvin a dit :

Changing guilds rarely helps since there are just too many people going through the content in most such games, so you will always end up with toxicity in some form.

I.. Don't understand your point here.

The fact that there are "too many" people going through the content means that you will find EVERY type of people and EVERY type of groups so finding groups that are not toxic or even "fight" against toxicity is actually possible. On the other hand, when there are not many people playing it, then you have no choice but to deal with whatever you find and that's when you have to deal with toxicity with no way out.
 

 

Le 05/03/2022 à 15:41, SneakyErvin a dit :

Just the part of having to change a guild due to a specific mode is the very essence of toxic content.

I don't believe in such things, and not only when it comes to game but also for real life.

People who are toxic "under certain circumstances" are just toxic people, there is no such thing as "A good guy but sometimes an A****** but it's not his fault".
 

 

Le 05/03/2022 à 15:41, SneakyErvin a dit :

Plus I guess you've never heard of blacklists and other name/shame methods to keep "unwanted" players down outside of guilds they leave. Which was a very real thing, especially in WoW regarding raids. Didnt accept the "inner circle" loot distribution? Leave the guild and get bad mouthed by the same inner circle, ruining your rep in the new guild you find.

Well, I heard of it indeed, but my take on it is probably not gonna please you since I believe master loot is the only legitimate way to distribute loot and it's a gigantic shame that Blizzard removed it.

Loot distribution should be in the hands of the players. Yeah, sometimes not everybody will find the reasonning of the "inner circle" fair, some low-tier guilds only feed their leaders, etc. But it was players decisions and if you didn't agree with such decisions, you switched to an other guild. There might be "bad mouthing" but the only way to get bad mouthed so hard that you would not find any replacement guild at all is because you were actually not the nice player you pretend to be... Decent players never ends-up banned from everywhere. If they do, they did something wrong for real and it's not "bad mouthing".

Now we have a fully randomized system and random by definition is NEVER fair. It doesn't care about anything: About performance, about investment, about who needs it the most... It is just that. Random. Being lucky or not.

I definitelly prefered a system that would be controlled by groups of players organising their loots as they see fit, than just randomness that gives it to who is lucky at that specific moment.

From my own experience, which is obviously subjective, almost every time I've seen someone complain about loot master being "unfair", it's someone who didn't deserve the loot. Like someone constantly dying every try with no attempt at getting better, coming late to raids, trashtalking in chat... but refusing to hear that maybe someone else deserves the loot more than him. And then they run on the forum pretending the reason why we did not give them the loot is that "we only give it to our friends!!", since they refuse to hear any of the justification.

For reference, I have been part of those "inner circles" for about 25% of my raiding time, and just a normal member for the other 75%. In both cases I didn't see any real abuse.

All in all tho, I spoke a lot but the main point is: I don't believe in the idea that finding a group that suits your taste and at least does not feel toxic to you is impossible.

I have found such groups in every game I play, including in games with a reputation for having an overall toxic community such as EvE Online or League of Legends. If I managed to find them everytime, I think it's safe to assume they exist.

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Oh yeah, here's a bit of advice:

For the people who -- for one reason or another -- are not going to have a good time or don't want to engage with raids once they return; the 99% PvE content that isn't raids will still be there after the fact, anyway. So no need to worry.

Also, just make yourself heard that you want any rewards tradeable that you would hate to miss out on. Then you can just keep playing what you already like and let the market handle the rest.

Really! So agreed.

So tired of hearing people say RAIDs shouldn't be back even though they are popular because they don't personally want them back.

Then don't play them. RAID rewards AFAIK were always tradeable. They can trade for it and play the rest of the game. And stop trying to take nice things away from the rest of us out of pure bitterness and resentment. 

[RichardKam]

12小时前 , Voltage 说:

The former is exactly what I want as it's a multiplayer game. The latter won't happen to me. The real world works like this too. You have to build a  competent group when there's a project/task to be completed. The people who sign up for it but aren't capable don't last very long in the group. I don't know why gamers see this as "toxic" or "mean". It's called life. 

If people guide those who don't know how to do raid nicely, it will be great. But given the fact that DE tutorial is non-existent, and the general atmosphere of tridolon, I expect to see a lot of name calling and cursing around raid when it goes live. 

Anyway, enjoy the future raid. Mostly likely I won't be playing it.

[Pizzarugi]

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Oh yeah, here's a bit of advice:

For the people who -- for one reason or another -- are not going to have a good time or don't want to engage with raids once they return; the 99% PvE content that isn't raids will still be there after the fact, anyway. So no need to worry.

Also, just make yourself heard that you want any rewards tradeable that you would hate to miss out on. Then you can just keep playing what you already like and let the market handle the rest.

And then you miss out on the exclusive rewards.

Inb4 "just trade for it"

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If you happen to enjoy one of many frames and weapons that aren't considered good for eidolons, you're simply just left out with no other options besides grinding to try and get something valuable in order to trade for the rewards in said exclusive activity.

Does anyone still remember how expensive Arcane Energize used to be, back when you had to do raids to even have a chance at getting it? Yeah, good luck earning your way to buying that.

If the rewards happen to be exceptionally good and something you really don't want to lose out on having, chances are good they'll be exceptionally expensive given the lack of supply due to how rigorous and strict team composition will be that most will be put off from participating in the raids.

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

And then you miss out on the exclusive rewards.

Inb4 "just trade for it"

If the rewards happen to be exceptionally good and something you really don't want to lose out on having, chances are good they'll be exceptionally expensive given the lack of supply due to how rigorous and strict team composition will be that most will be put off from participating in the raids.

You can't "inb4" when we already said it. 

Just trade for it.

There is no problem here. People who think every piece of content should be for total casuals and cater to pub chaos are trying to create a problem where there isn't one.

The devs have confirmed raids are coming back and no whinging on the forums from a vocal minority who wants everything to be least common denominator is going to change that.

So just trade for it. 

Not everyone is going to like all content in the entire game. But you have always been able to trade for the stuff from the content you don't like. That has ALWAYS been how WF works, and you have been around more than long enough to know that by now. 

[Pizzarugi]

10 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

You can't "inb4" when we already said it. 

Just trade for it.

There is no problem here. People who think every piece of content should be for total casuals and cater to pub chaos are trying to create a problem where there isn't one.

The devs have confirmed raids are coming back and no whinging on the forums from a vocal minority who wants everything to be least common denominator is going to change that.

So just trade for it. 

Do you really want to go back to when build-enabling things like Arcane Energize cost thousands of platinum to obtain, when the best you can do is grind for garbage that's worth low tens? Because I sure don't. It's bad enough a decent Riven already costs an arm and a leg if you're not willing to grind the tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of Kuva to try and make one yourself.

I put up with exceptionally rare, powerful equipment that costs exorbitant amounts of currency in Path of Exile to enable my builds. At least in PoE, I can do things that can provide an exceptional amount of currency for the time spent. In Warframe, you're lucky to find anything worth 100p or more these days, so you'd have to spend an ungodly amount of time saving up to buy whatever these raids will offer.

[0_The_F00l]

11 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I see nothing wrong with Scrapping the whole thing since we know DE isn't going bother with any of that....

That is a very good example of a defeatist statement.

11 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well if the Baker doesn't Acknowledge Diabetes exists then Yes... Nobody Should Get Cake....

What a load of self centered rubbish ,

11 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's a Good Start 👍 !!!

Great , cause we already have that start in the new war , it is a solo mission with multiple stages and challenges.

11 hours ago, Lutesque said:

No Idea....

I guess one thing I could do is just remove the Cooldown from on call Crew and Triple it so that you can summon all three of them...

Then I don't have to care about everybody elses Behavior....

Ah , glad to see you are talking about things you have no idea about, but dont worry i was well aware of this fact.

[Numerikuu]

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Just trade for it.

[Flashbacks to old raids where certain Arcanes were selling for literally $200-$400 worth of platinum (at rank 3, that price would probably be near double now) because barely 1% of the community played them and held the monopoly]

For real though. I'm not against Raids returning... if completely redone and thought out better. But if they return in the same manner as how they were before? It's just going to be a repeat of the past.

Spoiler

And nobody should want that... besides RMT'ers perhaps 😂

 

[Tesseract7777]

52 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

[Flashbacks to old raids where certain Arcanes were selling for literally $200-$400 worth of platinum (at rank 3, that price would probably be near double now) because barely 1% of the community played them and held the monopoly]

For real though. I'm not against Raids returning... if completely redone and thought out better. But if they return in the same manner as how they were before? It's just going to be a repeat of the past.

  Hide contents

And nobody should want that... besides RMT'ers perhaps 😂

 

I mean, to be fair afaik that was only because there was a hard cap on one a day, whereas Eidolon arcane sellers can spam 6x3 or whatever it is in one night cycle. 

If they put in a once a day raid cooldown again, and put something like OP arcanes in and it is as tough to do without voice chat coordination as LOR then yes we have a bit of a problem. 

But I am expecting them to have learned at least a bit since then. 

[KIREEK]

It's not that we enjoyed the toxicity, i did my part when filtering out the players who either lied before or didn't reply to simple raid questions, this avoided users from sneaking into parties to be carried as i already knew not to trust the player, this was however made inefective recently since now there is only an 100 ignore cap.

There was however a downside to this, recruiting took way longer if we didn't have the usuals to help us out and this resulted into no one wanting to recruit, we surely wanted to do the raids, but the player recruiting had to ensure the player was up to par, this discouraged the game altogether, fun the 1st few times, not so much when you wanted a quick run.

Doing a mindless recruit or letting in previously ignored players who mislead/trick users was a recipe for disaster.

While having a small group of regulars was easy enough, warframe isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so a group of regular on the long term is very difficult, you can't rely on the same players 24h a day, 7 days a week for the next 4 years, eventually players will stop playing, take vacations, switch working hours, play other missions,......

[Kontrollo]

6 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

And then you miss out on the exclusive rewards.

Inb4 "just trade for it"

Obviously, that's where you have to give them feedback that you want things to be tradeable. I thought I made that pretty clear:

10 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Also, just make yourself heard that you want any rewards tradeable that you would hate to miss out on. ...

Then: just trade for it.

[Darkduprey]

Il y a 6 heures, Pizzarugi a dit :

Inb4 "just trade for it"

And what's wrong with that?

il y a une heure, KIREEK a dit :

you can't rely on the same players 24h a day, 7 days a week for the next 4 years

Sure... But you don't need it?

First of all that's nearly impossible that you will either need or even want to do this content for 4 years lol, maybe a few months at best before you have everything you will ever need there.

And secondly... Why would you want the same group with no turn-over at all in the spawn of 4 years?

Nothing works like that, not even real life companies.

[Pizzarugi]

4 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

For real though. I'm not against Raids returning... if completely redone and thought out better. But if they return in the same manner as how they were before? It's just going to be a repeat of the past.

This is what I'm worried about the most about raids. It's one thing for the activity to only allow a very small minority of players to engage in it due to extreme limitation in build viability, but gating incredibly strong rewards behind it that will become expensive due to lack of supply is just asking for us to return to a time when certain build-enabling rewards were forever beyond reach for most players. I'd be a lot less hesitant about their return if we were certain we're not bringing back that era.

[--END--Rikutatis]

9 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Do you really want to go back to when build-enabling things like Arcane Energize cost thousands of platinum to obtain, when the best you can do is grind for garbage that's worth low tens? Because I sure don't. It's bad enough a decent Riven already costs an arm and a leg if you're not willing to grind the tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of Kuva to try and make one yourself.

I put up with exceptionally rare, powerful equipment that costs exorbitant amounts of currency in Path of Exile to enable my builds. At least in PoE, I can do things that can provide an exceptional amount of currency for the time spent. In Warframe, you're lucky to find anything worth 100p or more these days, so you'd have to spend an ungodly amount of time saving up to buy whatever these raids will offer.

I think you're overreacting a little. I remember those days, and I didn't have energize back then and didn't want to spend 4k plat to buy one either. And while it was very powerful (even more powerful than it is now after the nerf) and in certain ways game changing, it wasn't the only way to build infinite energy either. You either spammed energy pizzas for frames that didn't channel, or build for max efficiency for frames that needed to channel. That's it. We got used to the lazy way of energize + neutral efficiency and no need for energy pizzas, but WF offers multiple other options. And those other options are all powerful enough to get you to level cap enemies if you build smart, it's not like without energize you can't do endgame content. 

Plus, if you don't want to spend a lot of time grinding 4k plat to buy super rare raid exclusive content (and I sincerely doubt DE will allow that to happen again, they weren't happy with it and it seems like they want the plat value of items to remain low) you can always swipe your credit card and spend real money on it. That's the whole point of a F2P game and how their monetization works. Game is free, but they expect a percentage of players to spend some money here and there for convenience and to skip grind. Not saying it's a great monetization system (lately I tend to favor B2P games to avoid the f2p bs), but it's how WF works. 

[(XBOX)Varzin]

First and foremost I do not believe that my mere dislike of something warrants said thing not being included in a game. 

That said I can say from my long experience with Destiny that raids can be an extremely toxic and stressful activity depending on how they are handled. 

IF Warframe is going to get raids or raid like activities I would ask the fallowing:

1. Keep the mechanics relatively simple. I'm not saying everything has to be as easy as "press the interact button to progress" but I also shouldn't need a 30 minute YouTube tutorial just to know what to do. Mechanics should be simple enough to learn on the spot but complex enough to be interesting, which I know is a difficult balance to strike. Above all else I would strongly suggest not including anything that requires voice communication.

2. Tanky enemies/bosses are not challenging nor are they fun, they're annoying and boring. If I fail it should be because I didn't execute on the mechanics properly or was not skillful enough to survive, not because I didn't bring the right gun with it's DPS maxed out to infinity. 

3. Finding a group to play with should not be a barrier to entry. With Warframe's built in matchmaking I'm sure this won't be an issue most of the time anyway but it's something to keep in mind as raids traditionally require a greater level of cooperation than normal activities. 

During the long time which I played Destiny (don't know if anything has changed in the past couple years) raids did not support matchmaking despite other game modes having it. The reason given was that raid mechanics were too complex to play with randoms and required active communication. There was no jump in and play with raids, you had to go to the Destiny forums or some other LFG site to find people, party up on your platform of choice, and only then you could start. Finding a group could take literal hours depending on your situation, God forbid you be a solo player like myself or simply have few friends who play the same game. This was further hampered by people being extremely exclusionary about who they'd party up with. "Vault of Glass must be level 40 Sunsinger with Gjallarhorn" was not an uncommon LFG heading. Not to say that everyone was like that, but many were and it was a constant problem. I really don't want to see "Shadow of Natah must be MR30 Inaros Prime with Viral/Heat Tenet Envoy".

Borderlands 3 had a couple raid-like activities which they called Takedowns. Of the 2 I would look to the Guardian Breach Takedown. It's mechanics are pretty simple and easy to understand just by looking at them but I felt they were effective enough to make the activity more interesting than standard combat, particularly the boss fights. I certainly can't speak for everyone but that is a level of complexity I'm happy with.

I personally have no interest in raids, I prefer activities I can do on my own. If Warframe is going to have raids, which it seems like it probably will, I just don't want them to be anything like my past experiences. Make them challenging sure, just don't make them so extreme that players feel like they're unapproachable.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

A lot of people won't see it as toxic simply because they are probably on the same side as the ones being toxic, which normalizes toxicity towards certain groups.

On a sidenote, there's a difference between "talking from experience" -which is right- and "making assumptions" -which is wrong-. Especially when we think about how different is people, how environment shapes behaviors, and how a lot of those assumptions (usually disguised as "experience") are actually players projecting themselves or their fears and making a slippery slope out of it.

And this is exactly what i mean in the previous segment. Some people love to claim that pvp is toxic by itself, yet rarely ever bother to interact with pvp focused communities to see how these actually are.

Fwiw, competitive people just want a good fight against others similar or even higher skilled players to improve and help others to get better in order to have more fun opponents to fight against, which also provides a reason to become even better (reason why the skill gap has become so wide for conclave since PvE doesn't encourage any way of learning other than modding, which takes a step back in PvP).

Toxicity in PvP usually comes from the frustration of people who cares more about rewards (syndicate standing, a rank, a leaderboard position, whatever) than about improving.

This only shows a huge failure on community management. Everything in the game is so easy that players have developed a strong atychiphobia, so players will do whatever it takes to avoid even taking the chance to fail a mission, going as far as blaming everyone else for mission failures -sometimes even before failure becomes imminent- while refusing to see their role in such failure. DE's focus on rewards over gameplay is another thing to keep in mind here.

I'd say warframe (the game) does indeed have good mechanical foundation for raids. The real issue is -imo- how the lack of a defined power ceiling makes the devs unable to develop content that challenges players without arbitrary mechanics; and how powercreep removes any need to engage deeply with warframe's mechanical aspect.

This is what i hated the most about old raids, the "CC everything and let someone else handle the puzzle" approach encouraged by RSB which basically gave them "students" who would be nothing but CC batteries to trivialize enemies while "instructors" got to play the game without enemies.

I think a big issue is that some people see toxicity in everything. I'm personally on the level where toxicity is rooted in behavior towards your fellow players. Like being just straight up disgusting in the way you approach other players. The whole "it requires grouping, it is toxic" idea that some put forward I just cannot support, but when death threats or having inner circle dealings that benefit some, toxicity becomes real to me.

There is really no part of WF where I see a foundation for raids. Every player fills every role and there are some roles that cannot even be properly done. We have no real aggro management, no direct healing, no direct tanking and everyone can use the same weapons, which is where our DPS mostly comes from. I'm not going to enjoy puzzles as a bandaid mechanic to require more than X number of people in a group. And just adding more mobs of higher hp/damage wont do it for me either, since what in that sets it appart from practically anything else in the game? Not even bosses have a chance to be of raid design, because we lack those things that sets apart headless chicken approach bosses of dungeons in other games from raid bosses. We will always be stuck with the headless chicken bosses here, DE cant add those special things where the tank and healer needs to be on their toes for instance. But then again I think it really comes down to players wanting raids in WF dont really know what it is that they want. I think many have never set foot in a raid outside of WF trials even, so dont really have an idea what an amazing thing a raid can actually be.

13 hours ago, Darkduprey said:

Fair enough.

I don't think it makes you sound like a jerk, it's important to take into account your amount of experience in the subject when doing such an analysis, and well I started it anyway so I have no room to complain do I? :p

However it seems our respectives thousands hours of gameplay led to very different experiences.
 

I.. Don't understand your point here.

The fact that there are "too many" people going through the content means that you will find EVERY type of people and EVERY type of groups so finding groups that are not toxic or even "fight" against toxicity is actually possible. On the other hand, when there are not many people playing it, then you have no choice but to deal with whatever you find and that's when you have to deal with toxicity with no way out.
 

 

I don't believe in such things, and not only when it comes to game but also for real life.

People who are toxic "under certain circumstances" are just toxic people, there is no such thing as "A good guy but sometimes an A****** but it's not his fault".
 

Well, I heard of it indeed, but my take on it is probably not gonna please you since I believe master loot is the only legitimate way to distribute loot and it's a gigantic shame that Blizzard removed it.

Loot distribution should be in the hands of the players. Yeah, sometimes not everybody will find the reasonning of the "inner circle" fair, some low-tier guilds only feed their leaders, etc. But it was players decisions and if you didn't agree with such decisions, you switched to an other guild. There might be "bad mouthing" but the only way to get bad mouthed so hard that you would not find any replacement guild at all is because you were actually not the nice player you pretend to be... Decent players never ends-up banned from everywhere. If they do, they did something wrong for real and it's not "bad mouthing".

Now we have a fully randomized system and random by definition is NEVER fair. It doesn't care about anything: About performance, about investment, about who needs it the most... It is just that. Random. Being lucky or not.

I definitelly prefered a system that would be controlled by groups of players organising their loots as they see fit, than just randomness that gives it to who is lucky at that specific moment.

From my own experience, which is obviously subjective, almost every time I've seen someone complain about loot master being "unfair", it's someone who didn't deserve the loot. Like someone constantly dying every try with no attempt at getting better, coming late to raids, trashtalking in chat... but refusing to hear that maybe someone else deserves the loot more than him. And then they run on the forum pretending the reason why we did not give them the loot is that "we only give it to our friends!!", since they refuse to hear any of the justification.

For reference, I have been part of those "inner circles" for about 25% of my raiding time, and just a normal member for the other 75%. In both cases I didn't see any real abuse.

All in all tho, I spoke a lot but the main point is: I don't believe in the idea that finding a group that suits your taste and at least does not feel toxic to you is impossible.

I have found such groups in every game I play, including in games with a reputation for having an overall toxic community such as EvE Online or League of Legends. If I managed to find them everytime, I think it's safe to assume they exist.

It's all good, water under the bridge and so on.

My point is just that there are enough people going through the content that you nearly always end up with some toxic person. And if the interest is lower it is just harder to get away from the same toxic people. I'm also not saying that I'm personally affected by them, just that they exsist and are common, which can ruin it for others, not only to the point where they get bummed from the run, but to the point where they get turned off from the mode as a whole. I mean, heck, the raid drama in WoW turned me off from raiding for quite a while when I quite that game after 8 years or so.

And I agree with you fully, loot distribution should be in the hands of the players, but there should never be an inner circle with dibs on it. And I can guarantee you, I knew alot of people that were on black lists and they turned out to be the nicest people to be around, both when it came to their personality and game understanding. Their main "flaw" was that they called out loot whore GLs and RLs and moved on.

I've also experienced things like what you mention, where the GL/RL is not to blame, but the individual player instead for not fullfilling their duty. But like with the other things mentioned, that is also a horrible case of toxicity. Which can be just as damaging is the other behavior. Though, it has a harder time to take root, since few will asskiss a random fellow raging if the loot is in reality fairly distributed, but people tend to love to asskiss "big dog" leaders for a better chance at loot.

I used to both lead or be part of the "inner circle", but we never gave ourselves a benefit. Everything was based on attendence points or DKP as people called it in WoW. The only benefit we gave was to main tanks and main healers, and that was in cases where the mains and secondaries werent prepared to change their roles as they obtained gear over time.

And no, I dont believe it is impossible to find another group, but it doesnt remove the toxicity from the mode that others may suffer heavily from. It will still be there and affect others even if we escape it. But also, like I said, leaving a guild based on one activity if they do others in a good way is also a dilemma. Like for me in GW2, we had a guild that was rather toxic and abusive when it came to PvP, leaders constantly being straight up rude etc. But at the same time the guild did a wonderful job with organizing world boss events, guild "quests" and so on.

Atleast one thing that can make raiding less painful in WF is that there will be no abuse or *@##$ing regarding loot distribution, since the game handles it at a personal level already.

edit: Just to make it clear, I'm not saying raids shouldnt come to WF because they breed toxicity, I was just pointing out the OP observations regarding toxicity and raids is correct, atleast to from my own experience.

 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

raids were toxic an were ran by mostly very very very VERY elitism of players who wanted to corner the arcane market.

ya raids were fun when you could run them with group of people that could work together to work on the goals an make sure everyone was having fun

[Josh486]

10 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Do you really want to go back to when build-enabling things like Arcane Energize cost thousands of platinum to obtain, when the best you can do is grind for garbage that's worth low tens? 

Yes, get good. This community needs to hear this more often. Get good at the game before you complain. Exclusive rewards is how you maintain a piece of content’s relevance. Right now there is literally no reason to farm Eidolons anymore, even when I’m pulling 5x3 duos I’m still not making nearly as much on average as just farming prime parts. All because Scarlet Spear was added so people who suck and don’t wanna improve could get what people actually practiced for. 
 

Get good, stop complaining about not having access to stuff and just get good at the game, make some semblance of an attempt to improve instead of instantly getting mad about new content having good rewards

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, Josh486 said:

Yes, get good. This community needs to hear this more often. Get good at the game before you complain. Exclusive rewards is how you maintain a piece of content’s relevance. Right now there is literally no reason to farm Eidolons anymore, even when I’m pulling 5x3 duos I’m still not making nearly as much on average as just farming prime parts. All because Scarlet Spear was added so people who suck and don’t wanna improve could get what people actually practiced for. 
 

Get good, stop complaining about not having access to stuff and just get good at the game, make some semblance of an attempt to improve instead of instantly getting mad about new content having good rewards

How do you "git gud" in a grind game, exactly? How is running the same content over and over to get junk items you'll need literally hundreds of to buy whatever rewards raids offer a sign of skill?

This isn't Dark Souls, dude. There's nothing to get good at doing. Having the patience of a saint (or a masochist) to grind for hundreds of junk and hoping you'll find people to buy it all isn't a skill.

[Josh486]

5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How do you "git gud" in a grind game, exactly?

Learning how to do content better/fasting, or getting more rewards while doing so. Just because it’s a grind game doesn’t mean it’s devoid of ways to improve 

[Numerounius]

I think raids can work out judging by the current content in the game. 

Obviously there are things that I do not wish to see in raids such as lengthy mobile defense timers and annoying restrictions to enter such as the night/day cycle for eidolons, enemy spawns becoming nonexistent, becoming a buggy mess even after reporting every bug tenfold. Awful RNG grinding required etc.

 

But there are also things that gets me excited to see what happens with raids, such as if there will be a pre-requisite such as acquiring resources akin to omega isotopes or the scannable plants for silver grove. Being able to show off damage firepower. Being able to do it solo or in a PUB with similar time frames. Having phases similar to what we have in current bossing events such as the targets in Kela, weakpoints in Lephantis, Jackal Lasers. Good rewards (warframe arcanes) under an NPC shop (Venom and Scarlet).

 

There is also the chance it can also bring something totally brand new and I have already voiced some concerns about some issues such as if instakill effects with no telegraph was done or unavoidable effects, becoming very long >30 minutes. Required group play. And many other elements that I am probably not aware of since I don't play other games that have a raid element.

Will there be things that causes people to dislike or bring targeted hate to the gamemode? Sure that is expected but there are also many ways of mitigating such issues by looking at current content in the game and player engagement of said content as well as the continued support and adjustments of content after its introduction which has been done for numerous aspects of warframe already.

 

I am okay if they don't come, after all it felt like it was putting words into many people's mouths by including it on the survey since there were many other things that I wished to see on the official survey but wasn't put on the survey.

[SneakyErvin]

29 minutes ago, Josh486 said:

Learning how to do content better/fasting, or getting more rewards while doing so. Just because it’s a grind game doesn’t mean it’s devoid of ways to improve 

Problem is that you cannot get that much faster in WF since it is based on spawn timers and so on. And anything you can in essence increase efficiency around to a point where it matters are things you cannot trade, except for arcanes, which wasnt always the case. So being upset over SS and players that "suck" is really really silly to begin with since arcanes were at one point in "harder" content aswell. Does that mean you "suck" too since you take advantage of content you enjoy instead of getting those things the OG way?

For me it doesnt matter how much I can improve myself for something like Eidolons, I still wouldnt farm them for arcanes since I hate the content with a passion.

And it isnt like arcanes actually fit into any progression connected to eidolons if you compare it to SS, Orphix or old raids. There is little benefit from the arcanes versus eidolons. It feels more like "we're gonna discontinue trials so we need a place to shove the arcanes into" and someone else goes "oh that reminds me, eidolons lack loot and it is quick bandaid to throw the arcane on them" followed by a "yeah, less work!". In reality arcanes should have been added to arbitrations, it would follow the progression of the game better. But instead they made nearly 100% pointless arcanes for that mode.

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, Josh486 said:

Yes, get good. This community needs to hear this more often. Get good at the game before you complain. Exclusive rewards is how you maintain a piece of content’s relevance. Right now there is literally no reason to farm Eidolons anymore, even when I’m pulling 5x3 duos I’m still not making nearly as much on average as just farming prime parts. All because Scarlet Spear was added so people who suck and don’t wanna improve could get what people actually practiced for. 
 

Get good, stop complaining about not having access to stuff and just get good at the game, make some semblance of an attempt to improve instead of instantly getting mad about new content having good rewards

Salt detected 😂 I will never forget the ree'ing of the tridolon hunters upon realisation their corner of the market was about to tank for a long while.

Scarlet Spear was one of the best events DE did (despite being a little rocky at first) for that reason. Time spent x reward gained was far better than literally living out on the Plains for most of your life. Also it's not about 'people sucking at eidolons' either. I can solo tri, but after countless times of getting garbage for all the time spent... yeah. Give me SS any day. Hope they bring it back at some point.

As for raids, one thing I would love to see which actually requires skill in this game is use of parkour mechanics. I love the Jupiter rework for this reason, and would love to see more of Warframe's core aspects utilised. Imo the parkour/movement in this game is one of the things that keeps me entertained and coming back.