Accessibility: Trigger Mod/Toggle/Auto-Melee Please (aka, stop making me click like crazy)

[Traumtulpe]

These kinds of requests keep showing up all the time, since forever ago. Year after year after year (after year) players ask of DE:

• Hey, this gun has a fire rate of over 10per second on a semi trigger. It's making my hand hurt, can you do something about that?

DE doesn't answer.

• Hey, your sprint toggle doesn't work. Can you, you know, make it work? Sometime? At all??

DE doesn't answer.

[iPathos]

On 2022-05-25 at 10:10 AM, Salenstormwing said:

But that's not so with the Catabolyst, which when you hit the trigger, does NOTHING. SO you gotta manually reload it with the reload key, like a pleb, so it can throw the old ammo pack out like a grenade.

That's intended so that the grenade is not wasted, as the stats for a non-empty magazine grenade and a grenade from an empty magazine are considerably different;

• Base damage: 203 Partial, 1997 Empty
• Critical chance: 11% Partial, 31% Empty
• Radius: 5m Partial, 7m Empty
• Status chance: 43% Partial, 59% Empty

It's literally part of the weapon's design...

Aside from that and as for the request around semi triggers, I'd also like to see some kind of accessibility toggle regarding them because the premise here has plenty of merit.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 4.5.2022 um 03:14 schrieb Salenstormwing:

Small suggestion. Accessability suggestion.

I want a mod that turns Semi and Burst weapons instead Auto and Burst-Auto trigger-type weapons.

Why? Because my hand hurts. The new Incarnon weapons are great, but I remember why I stick to either hold-and-release triggers like bows, or auto-fire weapons. I hate clicking constantly, trying to get kills, only to end a day of Warframe with my hand feeling like I murdered it.

The only change is it would make weapons in Semi and/or Burst allow the user to HOLD the trigger instead of having to tap it like crazy.

Even Reddit thinks we could use something like this. Some of us players love the game, but our bodies do not. I'm even open to there being penalties, as long as it's a choice I get to make as a player, I'm going to go for comfort of my hand and wrist over "because it's how it's always been".

this can be solved with macro, but that's ridiculous.... (macros for warframe? can't be serious)

I have ignored such weapon for many years. Because I'm not from a mental asylum and I won't destroy my fingers.

aoe would work, because very few shots are needed here. but single target garbage has to do first class damage. otherwise it cannot work.
but there are too many guns where you have to actually HAMMER. even several clicks per second......... O M G.......

for me this is an epic fail in design. such "designers" do not play the game!

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-05-27 at 7:45 AM, Battle.Mage said:

this can be solved with macro, but that's ridiculous.... (macros for warframe? can't be serious)

I have ignored such weapon for many years. Because I'm not from a mental asylum and I won't destroy my fingers.

aoe would work, because very few shots are needed here. but single target garbage has to do first class damage. otherwise it cannot work.
but there are too many guns where you have to actually HAMMER. even several clicks per second......... O M G.......

for me this is an epic fail in design. such "designers" do not play the game!

Trust me, I have to stick to very specific weapons to NOT destroy my hand, and even then, it still can hurt after a while. That's why I'm confused why adding Auto to Semi & Burst is such a hard option.

Auto-Burst weapons already exist in game, and are great fun. Why limit an otherwise good feature to SOME Burst weapons?

Semi having the option of letting me hold to fire it at the ROF the weapon has would be no different than programming a macro for the game. But why program some macro when it could just be integrated into the game, and make hand pain less of an issue for players?

I posed the question to Pablo on Twitter about getting this function added in-game, and one tweet questioned me on "what sort of pain does clicking a mouse button a few times cause?" Like my DeQuervain's Tenosynovitis isn't legit unless I explain it in detail how tendons rubbing back and forth against the sheath that covers my nerve causes an electric and heat feeling in my wrist...

Pain is pain. Please help players get to experience LESS of it in-game, DE. Please.

Please.

[Salenstormwing]

I get the feeling that there won't be any official word on this sort of feature being looked at by the devs till after TennoCon.

Which is sad, but understandable. I wish there was a list of things DE were considering changing/updating/working on beyond the rare and occasional Dev Updates and Streams.

Funny thing is, I've seen dual pistols with auto functions before that would be typically semi in a normal game... Deadpool's Dual Pistols from Fortnite, a few seasons ago. Not the most effective weapons out there, but the fact that you could just hold them down, shoot your 14 shots without having to think about it, and then reload to do it again, wonderful edition to the game.

Also, I like how some folks on Twitter think it's bad because "it would increase the DPS of dual pistols", the hypothetical DPS does not change. If a Rate of Fire of 12 with a Damage of X, your DPS is 12X. The PHYSICAL/MECHANICAL DPS is "however fast you can click per second" with a Damage of X, for a total of Owwie(X).

A physical DPS cap is not the way a game should be balanced. Otherwise, why give players Fire Rate +60% mods in the first place if we physically can't use them? We're space ninja cyborg cowboy pirate ghost kids. I think the warframe could pull the trigger for us. Please. Just imagine if you had to click the trigger to use Mesa's Peacekeepers and make it shoot every, single, time....

Edited June 6, 2022 by Salenstormwing

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Salenstormwing:

I get the feeling that there won't be any official word on this sort of feature being looked at by the devs till after TennoCon.

Which is sad, but understandable. I wish there was a list of things DE were considering changing/updating/working on beyond the rare and occasional Dev Updates and Streams.

Funny thing is, I've seen dual pistols with auto functions before that would be typically semi in a normal game... Deadpool's Dual Pistols from Fortnite, a few seasons ago. Not the most effective weapons out there, but the fact that you could just hold them down, shoot your 14 shots without having to think about it, and then reload to do it again, wonderful edition to the game.

Also, I like how some folks on Twitter think it's bad because "it would increase the DPS of dual pistols", the hypothetical DPS does not change. If a Rate of Fire of 12 with a Damage of X, your DPS is 12X. The PHYSICAL/MECHANICAL DPS is "however fast you can click per second" with a Damage of X, for a total of Owwie(X).

A physical DPS cap is not the way a game should be balanced. Otherwise, why give players Fire Rate +60% mods in the first place if we physically can't use them? We're space ninja cyborg cowboy pirate ghost kids. I think the warframe could pull the trigger for us. Please. Just imagine if you had to click the trigger to use Mesa's Peacekeepers and make it shoot every, single, time....

oh well. it has been mentioned so many times. I have not seen any reaction until now.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

I get the feeling that there won't be any official word on this sort of feature being looked at by the devs till after TennoCon.

Since that covers a period from 17 July to the heat death of the universe., and considering there hasn't been any official word on it for 9 years, "after TennoCon" seems like a safe bet.  :/

2 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

Also, I like how some folks on Twitter think it's bad because "it would increase the DPS of dual pistols", the hypothetical DPS does not change. If a Rate of Fire of 12 with a Damage of X, your DPS is 12X. The PHYSICAL/MECHANICAL DPS is "however fast you can click per second" with a Damage of X, for a total of Owwie(X).

According to the wiki there's a semi auto input cap of 10 per second.  If that applies to macros as well, real maximum dps would be increasing by a lot in many cases.  Although somehow I don't see a lot of people dumping Kogris for Telos Akbolto.

The key balance question though isn't whether dps would increase or not, it's whether any dps increases would make more or less sense at a given MR.  IOW, whether DE balances semi-auto weapons by giving them more potential dps for the inconvenience of having to click more or set up a macro to get it.  I did some half-arsed analysis of this a while back and I did find some cases where it could be the case, but more that were not.  The truth is, DE is  really inconsistent about balancing, so their reasoning can be obscure.

In any case, it's absurd for people to argue against addressing a player health issue because it might cause balance problems.  These can be addressed in a hotfix, if necessary, or just ignored, more likely.  Tendons and nerves not so much.

[Salenstormwing]

Good morning, good afternoon, happy wherever-you-are, whenever-you-are...

I forgot I built the Felarx early last week, so I had something new to work on this weekend.

Finally, a primary with AUTO.... and a whopping 6 shots. Annoying, but okay.

And the Incarnon form... is SEMI. Oh For Sakes, DE, are you for real?

And this is why the muscle at the base of my thumb is aching today, because in order to kill stuff with the underwelming Incarnon form of the Felarx, I had to manually click the not-an-auto-shotty constantly.

That was my weekend. Can we have an auto-trigger switch, please?

[Salenstormwing]

In the meantime, I'm gunna offer a few suggestions if you're having issues with wrist and/or hand pain.

1. A wrist wrap. This is the one I use. It's 9 bucks (US). Or you can get 2 for 15 bucks. Wear while gaming/typing/using the computer... I have one for home and one for work. It helps a bit by keeping compression on your wrist while also making sure you don't accidentally overextend your wrist or muscles on accident. Less movement from all the tendons means less overall pain.

2. Some sort of cold gel pack/wrap. Find one that works for you. I think I got mine in the pharmacy department of Publix. After I got home last night, I put my hand and wrist on the cold pack and just wrapped it around my wrist for a few minutes at a time. After about 10-15 minutes, my wrist was able to get a few necessary pops out that helped remove the pain I had been experiencing from the day before (that I mentioned). Sometimes a nice cold pack will work wonders on very sore tendons. I once had a hand cramp that only was able to be taken care of by using a nice cold compress. You usually want to use cold on muscle strains after you've been working them a lot, and heat before you anything that might cause you pain. Since you can often heat up these sort of wraps/packs in the microwave, you might want to heat up one, let your wrist and tendons get all nice and loosey goosey before you start to game hard, and then when you're done for the day, use a nice cold compress to help treat it (in case it feels a bit too sore).

 

Just a few suggestions in case you find yourself having issues in the meantime, as we wait for DE to notice folks who actually have issues (or want to avoid issues in the future).

[Drasiel]

On 2022-05-04 at 5:11 AM, Salenstormwing said:

Fair enough.

The option being in the Accessibility Section of the Options Menu, similar to "Hold Melee for Struggle" would be a fine option for "Hold to constantly fire" & "Hold to constantly melee". I know some folks in the previously quoted Reddit thread wondered why it wasn't an option with Melee. And it's not like the combos for melee would act different since every melee is just hit the Melee button + (nothing/move/block).

I also see the option of a Rank 0 Exilius Trigger Mod as totally a valid way to implement it. Just make it so it's the ONLY mod that could be slotted without unlocking the Exilius slot. It costs nothing, and it lets you put the mod on what you want, in case you DO, for some reason, want to leave it as-is.

Another possibility, let us toggle it from the weapon-stat page. Obviously this would apply to only semi and burst options, but having something you could select on the weapon in the weapon screen, would work too.

I like playing devil's advocate. I do think the Option in the Options Menu would be BEST, since it is an issue that's more driven by reducing wear and tear on my hand, but ANY option that gets it implemented would be better than NO option. I want to use my Akmagnus pistols some day, but I have a real fear I'll never do it because my hand just can't take it.

 

Help me DE-wan Kenobi, you're our only hope.

Happy May the 4th.

the melee is likely a holdover from when combos actually did have pause timings them in. Now that those are gone we are 99% fine except for thrown melees like glaive which hold to throw.

I would love for a hold to fire option in accessiblity options.

[Tyreaus]

45 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

except for thrown melees like glaive which hold to throw.

All they'd really need to do is add back the "heavy attack to throw" capability atop the "hold to throw" for when hold-to-melee is enabled, since the heavy attack button while holding the Glaive isn't doing anything right now.

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-07-01 at 4:17 PM, Drasiel said:

the melee is likely a holdover from when combos actually did have pause timings them in. Now that those are gone we are 99% fine except for thrown melees like glaive which hold to throw.

I would love for a hold to fire option in accessiblity options.

I didn't think about that but you are correct. Heavy Attack for Throw (like was way back in the day) would totally work if Melee-Hold to Auto-Melee was a thing.

I think LESS about Melee because it's NOT the wrist that I have that is injured, so I can tap my melee key all day long, but I can understand why you'd want it as well. It's similar to having the option to just TAP to change from crouch to stand as a TOGGLE. I remember back in the days the pain of having to hold Ctrl while doing commands. I still can, but it's so much more friendly to merely tap a key once than to strain to hold something constantly which is still less painful than having to tap a key constantly on some frames (like Octavia; do crouch squads for invisibility!)

[Harutomata]

I'd like to use the Akjagara Prime, but can't for this reason.

Some people struggle with wrist injuries and even carpal tunnel syndrome, this needs to be an accessibility option, not a weapon mod!

[Drasiel]

On 2022-07-05 at 10:22 AM, Salenstormwing said:

I didn't think about that but you are correct. Heavy Attack for Throw (like was way back in the day) would totally work if Melee-Hold to Auto-Melee was a thing.

I think LESS about Melee because it's NOT the wrist that I have that is injured, so I can tap my melee key all day long, but I can understand why you'd want it as well. It's similar to having the option to just TAP to change from crouch to stand as a TOGGLE. I remember back in the days the pain of having to hold Ctrl while doing commands. I still can, but it's so much more friendly to merely tap a key once than to strain to hold something constantly which is still less painful than having to tap a key constantly on some frames (like Octavia; do crouch squads for invisibility!)

For exactly that reason I simply can't play octavia, if I need her invisibility for survival I simply can't handle the repeat tapping (which is even worse if you already use toggle crouch because then you have to double tap)

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

For exactly that reason I simply can't play octavia, if I need her invisibility for survival I simply can't handle the repeat tapping (which is even worse if you already use toggle crouch because then you have to double tap)

Not to get too off-topic but you know what would be nice?

If we could hold the cast key for Metronome and input the buff input (crouching, jumping, shooting...) to initiate a dance emote, which builds up the respective buff while it's going. For sharing the buff, other players could get near Octavia and hold the interact key + the buff input to trigger their own dances.

It fits thematically, it doesn't have to change anything about how the ability works now, just provides a different, less spammy input that still has decent balance (keeping the player stationary) for what it gives. And it means we don't have to lean on spamming Metronome notes to work with the game's current rhythm.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Tyreaus

[Drasiel]

14 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Not to get too off-topic but you know what would be nice?

If we could hold the cast key for Metronome and input the buff input (crouching, jumping, shooting...) to initiate a dance emote, which builds up the respective buff while it's going. For sharing the buff, other players could get near Octavia and hold the interact key + the buff input to trigger their own dances.

It fits thematically, it doesn't have to change anything about how the ability works now, just provides a different, less spammy input that still has decent balance (keeping the player stationary) for what it gives. And it means we don't have to lean on spamming Metronome notes to work with the game's current rhythm.

That would also have a nice tangential effect that note spamming in somachord songs wouldn't be as required to make it easier to match the input for buffs.

[ZenHare]

If someone has not mentioned it already, just re-bind fire and melee attack to mouse wheel up and down. With certain free wheeling mice, you have turned every semi-automatic weapon into an automatic weapon.

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-07-15 at 5:44 PM, ZenHare said:

If someone has not mentioned it already, just re-bind fire and melee attack to mouse wheel up and down. With certain free wheeling mice, you have turned every semi-automatic weapon into an automatic weapon.

While that can work on PC, there are a few reasons to still push for a toggle-option for Auto-Firing:

1. Modding on the PC does not help those on Console.

2. If we can mod the fire button to wheel up and down, why not just make it an Auto-Fire option for players instead? The result's the same on PC in the end.

3. Not everyone has that sort of mouse.

4. A toggle option would be universal.

5. *shrug* I can't think of anything, but I wrote #5 down and it feels like a waste to erase it. Maybe it would be better to have an overall consistent feel across the ranged weapons. I really do love my Auto-Burst rifles in other games.

 

Also, happy Post-Tennocon, everyone! Werewolf frame! And a new Premium Titania Skin! Duviri! Frame Soul! Good stuff.

[Skoomaseller]

I agree. The Battacor is already auto-burst. The rest of the semi/burst weapons should get similar treatment, such as Marksman guns like the Prisma Grinlok, or Sniper rifles like the Rubico Prime.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-07-18 at 5:08 AM, Salenstormwing said:

5. *shrug* I can't think of anything, but I wrote #5 down and it feels like a waste to erase it. Maybe it would be better to have an overall consistent feel across the ranged weapons. I really do love my Auto-Burst rifles in other games.

#5 for me is that using the scroll wheel feels like arse compared to a button press.  The wheel is inherently limited in how many shots it can fire in a row, and I find too frequently I move the reticle slightly while doing it.  It's better with melee, as that kind of precision isn't necessary.

Personally I'd rather fire ranged weapons slowly or not use them at all than use the wheel.

 

 

[Salenstormwing]

It's been a while.

Been trying various things to help my hand. Partly it involves playing less Warframe. Another thing I do is wear a thumb brace to help my hand with my thumb base starts to hurt with bits of electric stinging. The thumb brace keeps my thumb from moving while I go about my day. I tend to wear it at work if my hand hurts in the morning. Is it a fix for the crazy unnecessary trigger pulls required in-game? No...

Seriously, AoE is currently king. If you're using a weapon that's Burst/Semi like the ones I'd love to get the Auto-Trigger function for, it would make those weapons go from Bad to merely Decent, but in noway META.

No Auto-Burst trigger will ever make a single-target currently burst-only trigger weapon meta, no matter how you slice it.

But, what it WOULD do is maybe make the weapons easier to use, less painful to use, and tempt a few folks to put down the Brammas and Nukors for a pair of six-shooters and live out their Ninja Cowboy dreams...

And it would stop the hand-cramping pains some.

But yeah...

[Venus-Venera]

Am 17.8.2022 um 04:08 schrieb Salenstormwing:

It's been a while.

Been trying various things to help my hand. Partly it involves playing less Warframe. Another thing I do is wear a thumb brace to help my hand with my thumb base starts to hurt with bits of electric stinging. The thumb brace keeps my thumb from moving while I go about my day. I tend to wear it at work if my hand hurts in the morning. Is it a fix for the crazy unnecessary trigger pulls required in-game? No...

Seriously, AoE is currently king. If you're using a weapon that's Burst/Semi like the ones I'd love to get the Auto-Trigger function for, it would make those weapons go from Bad to merely Decent, but in noway META.

No Auto-Burst trigger will ever make a single-target currently burst-only trigger weapon meta, no matter how you slice it.

But, what it WOULD do is maybe make the weapons easier to use, less painful to use, and tempt a few folks to put down the Brammas and Nukors for a pair of six-shooters and live out their Ninja Cowboy dreams...

And it would stop the hand-cramping pains some.

But yeah...

wrong game then. there are many other games that offer interesting gameplay.
if it was about mindless clicks, i wouldn't play warframe at all. I don't come here to work. there are already time wasters like eve online.

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-08-18 at 1:04 AM, Venus-Venera said:

wrong game then. there are many other games that offer interesting gameplay.
if it was about mindless clicks, i wouldn't play warframe at all. I don't come here to work. there are already time wasters like eve online.

I do play quite a few games of various types.

I do know that asking for minor things like trigger-actions be a bit more automated for the player seems near impossible, and yet I still think it's worth doing, not only because there are physical work-arounds (such as the previously mentioned mouse wheel macro), but the fact that Single Target (non-AOE) weapons are so off-meta now, that making the trigger changes MIGHT actually get some folks to use other weapons that aren't always the META option.

No matter how you adjusted the trigger from Semi to Full-Auto, the AkLex Prime isn't gunna be as powerful or most of the AOE counterparts.

No matter how you adjusted the trigger from Burst to Auto-Burst, the Kuva Quartakk still wouldn't be as powerful or deadly as any of it's Kuva AOE brothers.

So if the only reason holding trigger changes back was game balance, oh boy, that ship has sailed, and been sunk by the Royal Grineer Navy under a barrage of Kuva Zarrs. So why not make trigger changes a thing for HEALTH reason? We can have both Health Benefits as well as FUN Benefits. Because given the choice between running my Kuva Zarr/Brahmna, or using some of my older equipment, I'd rather use the old stuff as long as it didn't murder my hand. But instead, I must murder the game in AoE because it's either AoE, or pain.

[Famecans]

I still support this as not all players have the patience and money to create macros but there are factors in the game that should be changed and my thoughts are not specifically associated with helping repetitive strain injuries but rather improving the diversity and usefulness of weapons in the game.

• All weapons must have primary fire only and all these functions must be recreated by the DE as unique mods for the weapon itself.
• These mods are supposed to work as skills, so we will have a new unique mod slot for weapon skills.
• Some skills will be passive like an auto switch to auto or semi.
• Other weapon skills can be activated by a factor or combo like Trumna kill 5 enemies to charge the explosive shot.
• And other weapon abilities can be activated temporarily with animations or special actions (forced proc shots, forced headshot, shots regenerate health, shots regenerate energy, shots knock down enemy... etc.)

[Salenstormwing]

HI THERE! It's me again... SALEN!

I know Warframe is a very big game and has lots of different platforms it runs on (and at some point will have cross-platform support too). But, hey, did you know there are STANDARDS out there that game companies have published to help make sure video games can be played by more people? Weird, right? Yeah; people doing their jobs to write rules up on how to insure all folks can play games.

So why do I bring this up? Because I want to introduce you to.... THE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURE TAG created by the Microsoft Game Devs.

You see, some companies want games to not be so downright unfriendly to players with physical issues, that they made a big list of things Game Developers can do to help make playing THEIR game better for ALL players.

So let's go to the suggestions from Microsoft on XAG (Xbox Accessibility Guideline) 107: Input! What does it do? "The goal of this Xbox Accessibility Guideline (XAG) is to ensure that a player can operate the gaming interface through input mechanisms of their choice."

What is one of their suggestions on how to make sure YOU, the gamer, can play the game your way, with as little to NO problem?

Quote

Toggles and “auto” holds: For game controls that must typically be held down for longer periods of time like accelerating, sprinting, firing a weapon, repetitive jumping, etc. consider allowing players to toggle this action on permanently. For example, in Minecraft, players can enable “auto-jump” – instead of activating the jump control each time a step is approached, the character automatically jumps over. This similar approach can be taken for controls like auto-fire, auto-sprint, and more depending on the nature of the game.

What have we been talking about in this thread since the beginning? THIS.

Having a toggle so allow players to not have to repetitively click on something OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Microsoft literally suggests this as a "GOOD THING TO DO" in their big list of "STUFF YOU SHOULD REALLY CONSIDER" Game Dev Document.

 

Do you want me to see what Sony Entertainment says? Microsoft tends to be easier to find documentation on, because it's their job, but I'm sure if you give me a few days, I can see what Sony says. *does some Google-Fu in the BG*

No luck, but I might not be looking in the right places. Luckily, a bunch of other companies and studios have come together and also put together their own Game Accessibility Guidelines. They also have a section on Avoiding Repeated Inputs.

Quote

These require rapid precision, which for gamers with a wide range of strength, fatigue, pain, speed or accuracy related impairments can be a huge barrier or even exclude completely,....

Just saying... can we PLEASE get this function already; THANK YOU.