Accessibility: Trigger Mod/Toggle/Auto-Melee Please (aka, stop making me click like crazy)

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

What have we been talking about in this thread since the beginning? THIS.

Having a toggle so allow players to not have to repetitively click on something OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Microsoft literally suggests this as a "GOOD THING TO DO" in their big list of "STUFF YOU SHOULD REALLY CONSIDER" Game Dev Document.

The funny thing is, I think it goes further than the documentation you found.

Minecraft has just about always had "hold to jump" at a minimum, and it was back in 2016 when the combat system had an update that dissuaded spamming attacks - well before Microsoft got involved.

I also don't play TF2 but so far as I'm aware, traditionally "semi-auto" weapons like the Scout's pistol are auto. It's not like some Uzi, it's just a regular pistol.

This isn't some brand new consideration coming about from the turn of the century.

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-08-25 at 11:44 AM, Tyreaus said:

The funny thing is, I think it goes further than the documentation you found.

Minecraft has just about always had "hold to jump" at a minimum, and it was back in 2016 when the combat system had an update that dissuaded spamming attacks - well before Microsoft got involved.

I also don't play TF2 but so far as I'm aware, traditionally "semi-auto" weapons like the Scout's pistol are auto. It's not like some Uzi, it's just a regular pistol.

This isn't some brand new consideration coming about from the turn of the century.

Yes, it does go further, that was just what I could find with a few minutes of searching and examination.

But yes, in the end it's about making the game easier for everyone to enjoy.

I just figured it would be nice to know that this sort of Accessibility options are things the Video Game Industry strives to add to make games playable for more players.

 

In the end, I just want to enjoy some of my weapons that I physically CAN NOT use at this point because it hurts to use.

[Salenstormwing]

Minor update to this:

Someone else brought up similar issues in a completely different thread. So hey, I'm gunna link it here. And if any more get made, I'll add them to this thread as well. For consolidation fun/information/general-use.

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

I honestly avoid weapons that demand I hammer a button excessively for long periods of time.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb xcrimsonlegendx:

I honestly avoid weapons that demand I hammer a button excessively for long periods of time.

actually normal. because how are you supposed to play with it?

[Bluemillion]

RSI is not a balance mechanism. I'm getting older and some weapons, like the Akbolto Prime, are completely unusable to me. We really need an option under controls for automatic fire of semi-automatic, non-charge weapons.

[Drasiel]

10 minutes ago, Bluemillion said:

RSI is not a balance mechanism. I'm getting older and some weapons, like the Akbolto Prime, are completely unusable to me. We really need an option under controls for automatic fire of semi-automatic, non-charge weapons.

even most charge weapons could be made to work with it if they fire on full charge. Release to fire like bows or lanka or fire early weapons like nataruk don't tend to be as bad for the hands with their slower fire rate due to the charge.

[Frendh]

On 2022-05-04 at 3:14 AM, Salenstormwing said:

Small suggestion. Accessability suggestion.

I want a mod that turns Semi and Burst weapons instead Auto and Burst-Auto trigger-type weapons.

Why? Because my hand hurts. The new Incarnon weapons are great, but I remember why I stick to either hold-and-release triggers like bows, or auto-fire weapons. I hate clicking constantly, trying to get kills, only to end a day of Warframe with my hand feeling like I murdered it.

The only change is it would make weapons in Semi and/or Burst allow the user to HOLD the trigger instead of having to tap it like crazy.

Even Reddit thinks we could use something like this. Some of us players love the game, but our bodies do not. I'm even open to there being penalties, as long as it's a choice I get to make as a player, I'm going to go for comfort of my hand and wrist over "because it's how it's always been".

I think this should be a UI implementation. Right now you can do it with external software.

I know several players who use mouse scroll for repeated attacks.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Frendh

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Bluemillion:

RSI is not a balance mechanism. I'm getting older and some weapons, like the Akbolto Prime, are completely unusable to me. We really need an option under controls for automatic fire of semi-automatic, non-charge weapons.

or an eximus mutation mod with double stats. there you can define trigger option.

[Salenstormwing]

Happy Veilbreaker Update Day!

Unless you were looking forward to a trigger update. Then you are out of luck. Yes I went over the patch notes to check for trigger changes. There are none.

There are other changes that are good, but none of them will really be helpful in stopping carpel tunnel.

Either way, get out there, go break some Veils, and Arc some Heons.

The Future is Tomorrow

[Salenstormwing]

Hi guys, I changed the title, to make it a bit easier to explain that what I (and by extension the other commenters) am asking is an Accessibility issue.

Also Happy Friday.

Seriously, I wish I could use my Akmagnus once more. It was the best dual revolvers. And seeing them break-open to reload... so good. Alas, trigger pulls for every shot is just pain waiting to happen. Not fun. Maybe one day, but not today.

[Salenstormwing]

Time for Salen to share his LIST OF WEAPONS HE CAN NO LONGER USE: (Assume all have Catalyst unless mentioned otherwise)

• Akmagnus - 5 Forma
• AkLex Prime - 5 Forma
• Euphona Prime - 3 Forma
• Pandero - 5 Forma
• Pandero Prime - No Catalyst No Forma
• Magnus Prime - No Catalyst No Forma
• Vaykor Marelok - 3 Forma
• Vasto Prime - 2 Forma

Just a few examples of guns I used to use, and guns that I didn't use despite putting HEAVY research and build time into the OG version because of my hand issues.

I used to love the Aklex and the Akmagnus, but with time, my hand stopped loving them, and the same happened to me. I put in 5 forma on the Pandero when it came out, and yet I never upgraded the gun or forma'd it because of the pain I have trying to use SEMI trigger weapons. The Akmagnus is one of my fav guns even now, but I couldn't care less about the Magnus Prime because of how painful it has become to have to do something that should be automated in-game, or at least be an option to be automated. Plus, there's like a 10 Rounds Per Second max on revolvers and the like. What's the sense in letting folks stack on fire-rate if they can't use it without injury (or the game outright banning trigger presses at a certain level?).

I just wanted to use this time to show that I've put A LOT of time in the game, and I shouldn't be scoffing at when a Prime comes along, when I loved the original non-Prime version, just because my body fails to let me play the game like it used to.

LET ME LOVE MY GUNS, DE.

Thank you.

[Salenstormwing]

In other news, are you looking for some helpful exercises to help you in the meantime? I found someone on Twitter who did a comic page about all the things you can do to help give those wristies a nice stretch before you start gaming. Make sure to check out the original tweet as well as the full image:

[Antris]

Yes, it should be an accessibility option!

There is no need to use semi-auto as a feature, manual burst fire on automatic weapons is much more comfortable than continuous semi...
 

[Salenstormwing]

Oh man, I hate this new weapon from Kahl's shop. The Afentis; it's Semi. It's very slow, and it's slow even with trigger mods, and even with trigger mods, you can't tell when you can or can not fire the weapon.

And if you throw it at the ground, it acts like a buff to your weapons, including giving you back your speargun so it can shoot FASTER and reload FASTER, so your timing is even more off-the-wall when it comes to being a Semi trigger weapon.

So wish I could turn it from Semi to Auto, just so I wouldn't have to figure out the timing of a weapon that changes it's RoF at the drop of a speargun. Passive leveling of the weapon it is then...

[Salenstormwing]

Happy Tube-Day to Me!

It's been over 5 months of me requesting a change to how weapons work in Warframe with no change in sight! Every day I play, I'm reminded that I'm older than I used to be when I first started playing the game. And today, the day reminds me that I have to increment my older counter by +1.

Seriously though, can we please have accessibility changes for us folks with bad fingers and wrists?

Anyways...

 

[Salenstormwing]

Huh.

New Dev Stream talked about Semi-Auto changes coming in 2 days.

TL;DR: Semi not going to Auto, Semi RoF will stay in "human" territories, but if you go over it, you get MORE damage at that RoF that's fixed/capped so it's not crazy.

Basically, the Semi weapons that could have hugely gross RoFs will instead be have those RoFs translate into damage instead of having to use crazy clicky macros.

 

Not exactly the best thing, especially considering I do have some hand issues, but the fact that the RoFs of all those Semi Auto weapons will be cranked down so those high RoFs won't be possible but you still get bonuses from using those mods. Let's say they cap X Weapon to 6 RoF per second, a fire rate mod boost of 50% won't give you 9 RoF, but 50% more damage per bullet.

Same bullets, more damage, less clicky.

 

Eh, I'll consider this a mild win (for the community) for folks who didn't/wouldn't/couldn't use mods. I still think Full Auto would be better for everyone, but hey, at least there are changes coming that will help limit how much you can obliterate your hand in-game.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Salenstormwing said:

Semi not going to Auto, Semi RoF will stay in "human" territories, but if you go over it, you get MORE damage at that RoF that's fixed/capped so it's not crazy.

The explanation wasn't very clear, but I interpreted it to mean they're simply updating some high RoF semi-auto weapons to have lower RoF and higher damage per shot.  (I hope they're actually increasing dps slightly, or upgrading status chance too, but there was no hint of this that I recall.)

I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.  I think it will be a good QoL for me personally.    Anything that makes Magnus Prime and Akbolto Prime more usable with fewer button presses is a good thing, AFAIC.

And yet I'm extremely disappointed they've taken the time to look at this issue and aren't going for a deeper fix that better addresses the health concerns that many players already have with repetitive button presses.  It implies to me that a semi-auto to auto approach won't happen for years, if it ever does.

[Salenstormwing]

14 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

The explanation wasn't very clear, but I interpreted it to mean they're simply updating some high RoF semi-auto weapons to have lower RoF and higher damage per shot.  (I hope they're actually increasing dps slightly, or upgrading status chance too, but there was no hint of this that I recall.)

I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.  I think it will be a good QoL for me personally.    Anything that makes Magnus Prime and Akbolto Prime more usable with fewer button presses is a good thing, AFAIC.

And yet I'm extremely disappointed they've taken the time to look at this issue and aren't going for a deeper fix that better addresses the health concerns that many players already have with repetitive button presses.  It implies to me that a semi-auto to auto approach won't happen for years, if it ever does.

I agree. I would have preferred a fix that would allow shooting and melee to be automatic with a hold, but less button presses for more damage is better than the current system of "OMG WHY ME?" hand exploding.

And yeah, it wasn't SUPER clear in the DevStream how it will work, but we only have 2 days to wait for the patch notes. Take photos of your favorite Semi pistols and see how they change after the update, I guess.

[Tyreaus]

26 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And yet I'm extremely disappointed they've taken the time to look at this issue and aren't going for a deeper fix that better addresses the health concerns that many players already have with repetitive button presses.  It implies to me that a semi-auto to auto approach won't happen for years, if it ever does.

I tend to think the opposite, at least if it is a cap / switch-over on ROF / ROF benefits. _{(Which I hope it is: besides having a number of fire rate buffs that could undo any vanilla adjustment to semi-auto ROFs, that sounds like it could be interesting build-wise. Maybe we don't always want higher ROF...? Seems to be the idea behind "semi-auto" as a concept, anyway!)}

As it stands, the distinction between semi-auto and auto is the trigger behaviour—full stop. Change the trigger behaviour to full-auto (via macro or accessibility option) and "semi-auto" ceases to exist. If your design vision wants "semi-auto" and "auto" as weapon categories, erasing one isn't great.

However, if you implement something like a capped / translated rate of fire, it means "semi-auto" isn't defined only by trigger behaviour (as it is now), but also by how it handles ROF increases past or up to a point. That means you can give semi-auto weapons full-auto controls and still have "semi-auto" as a distinguishable category.

It's a similar sort of way how an auto trigger on burst-fire weapons doesn't matter, because there's still a distinction in firing rhythm.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Maybe we don't always want higher ROF...?

Supposedly the game already effectively caps semi-auto at 10 registered shots per second, with shots in excess of that vanishing into the aether. 

11 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

If your design vision wants "semi-auto" and "auto" as weapon categories, erasing one isn't great.

Depends on what the purpose of that design vision is.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a coherent one beyond "weapon feel".  As far as that goes, to me it's quite important, but not as important as no longer incentivizing players to sacrifice health for better damage output.  In any case, I favor a toggle, not an erasure.

[Tiltskillet]

@Salenstormwing The news overview puts it more clearly:

Quote

While reviewing the stats of some weapons with a semi-automatic mode, we noticed that certain weapons had an unsustainably high fire rate for most players. We lowered fire rates to a more humanly achievable level and improved their damage or reload stats to compensate.

 

[Pakaku]

Well I'm glad they "noticed" after however many years of recommending mouse-wheel binds to get around that issue...

Edited November 30, 2022 by Pakaku

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Pakaku said:

Well I'm glad they "noticed" after however many years of recommending mouse-wheel binds to get around that issue...

Yeah, they probably should have phrased that differently even if's literally true.

[Salenstormwing]

Quote

SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPON CHANGES

While reviewing the stats of some weapons with a semi-automatic mode, we noticed that certain weapons had an unsustainably high fire rate for most players. We adjusted the stats of the following semi-automatic weapons whose maximum potential was only being reached with the use of macros (to learn more about third-party use in Warframe visit our support article). Since not everyone is an avid macro user (within the boundaries allowed), we lowered fire rates to a more humanly achievable level and improved their damage or reload stats to compensate. 

Well, at least they finally made SOME sort of changes. Not huge ones, anyways. Making the trigger Auto as an option would have been better.

I like how their Support Article is "Don't use mods or macros, but it's okay if you do, unless we say NO to them, but that shouldn't happen BUT IT MIGHT (Bum-Bum-Buuuuum)!"

I doubt I'm gunna use many/if any of the changed Semi-Auto weapons they changes. While the damage might be good, the fact that it's still tap-to-use isn't gunna tempt me (or probably many other players dealing with carpal tunnel) to use them.

Plus, AoE is still king. The AoE nerf'ening didn't happen! Spam like crazy. Do all the things. Maybe one day DE will figure out that making something more useable might make more people use them.

 

It's a theory anyways.