Accessibility: Trigger Mod/Toggle/Auto-Melee Please (aka, stop making me click like crazy)

[Tiltskillet]

 

It's a band-aid approach obviously, but even as a bandaid it didn't go far enough.   Even by DE's own parameters of "sustainably high fire rate".  No, it's not sustainable or wise for humans to click 5 times per second.  Let alone 8 times per second with something like Lethal Torrent.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Yeah

instead of changing the weapon stats

they really should have just switched their trigger type to Auto

or better yet, let players decide and put AutoTrigger as an Option under the Accessiblity tab.

that fixes the problem forever

and even deals with stuff like, riven modded fps boost. Volt, and Wisp.

 

[NezuHimeSama]

On 2022-11-30 at 1:12 PM, Tiltskillet said:

 

It's a band-aid approach obviously, but even as a bandaid it didn't go far enough.   Even by DE's own parameters of "sustainably high fire rate".  No, it's not sustainable or wise for humans to click 5 times per second.  Let alone 8 times per second with something like Lethal Torrent.

Back when akbolto was hot S#&$, I'd regularly run up against the hard fire rate limit of 10/s.

I think there should be an exilus mod that makes semiauto weapons into fullauto weapons, and everything else should have just been left alone. Exilus mods on non progenitor weapons are sufficiently capacity starving to make it a worthwhile investment for people that like a gun, to make it feel like semiauto/clickspam is a relevant direction for those that enjoy it, while still allowing strong enough pistol builds with an exilus dedicated to that function for those that don't.

 

This is just typical DE taking the worst possible solution just to increase ""engagement"". Best thing to do is to ignore the change, or outright ignore the entire game. They don't care if you don't like it because you still spend money on plat, still log in every day to farm, etc.

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

I think there should be an exilus mod that makes semiauto weapons into fullauto weapons

Better than what we've got by a long shot, and I'd be happy to see it... but still a problematic solution.    There should not be a cost or  opportunity cost to player health.  It's not just the loss of another exilus mod, but acquiring the mod itself and the exilus adapter.   There's no good reason to make this a QoL to grind for.  It should be available the first time a player boots up the game on their first MK1 Kunai or whatever and every semi auto weapon thereafter.

 

13 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Back when akbolto was hot S#&$, I'd regularly run up against the hard fire rate limit of 10/s.

I wasn't saying it's impossible.  I've looked up  average and record clicks per second.    A lot of people can't, and a lot more people can't or shouldn't do even 5 cps for any significant duration.  The fact is, even people who can do it probably shouldn't be incentivized to do so by an lol spacewzzzrd game.

Some people who don't care now may feel a lot differently about it in 10 years.

[NezuHimeSama]

You can't, and shouldn't, protect players from themselves to that extent. People need an environment they can learn from in order to learn how to be responsible adults. Taking that away from them just makes them increasingly reliant on everyone else to protect them from themselves, and fails to disincentivize self destructive tendencies.

[Tiltskillet]

47 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

You can't, and shouldn't, protect players from themselves to that extent. People need an environment they can learn from in order to learn how to be responsible adults. Taking that away from them just makes them increasingly reliant on everyone else to protect them from themselves, and fails to disincentivize self destructive tendencies.

Sorry, that's ungulate poo afaic.  Maybe if we were talking about a game that didn't allow people under 25 to play, or if the damage of repetitive stress injuries was obvious and didn't often take years to accumulate.  "Hey mom, remember those games I played too much when I was a teenager?  I think they might have done permanent damage to my wrist.  Haha, lesson learned though!  I'll definitely be more careful after I get an arm transplant."

You yourself proposed a solution to this.  Why is a solution that that leaves it  100% up to players whether they toggle a box going to damage society, while actually incentivizing people to make bad decisions about long term health is totally fine?  Doesn't solution #2 sound a little, uh, diabolical to you?

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Tiltskillet

[Tyreaus]

On 2022-12-01 at 5:54 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

People need an environment they can learn from in order to learn how to be responsible adults. Taking that away from them just makes them increasingly reliant on everyone else to protect them from themselves, and fails to disincentivize self destructive tendencies.

What's the difference in "responsible adulthood" between an in-game option and a macro? From what I can figure, the latter's already shaped the environment however the former might. So what harm is left to be done by that in-game option?

[Salenstormwing]

On 2022-12-01 at 8:54 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

You can't, and shouldn't, protect players from themselves to that extent. People need an environment they can learn from in order to learn how to be responsible adults. Taking that away from them just makes them increasingly reliant on everyone else to protect them from themselves, and fails to disincentivize self destructive tendencies.

"Learn to be a responsible adult" and "a F2P game about Space Ninja War Crime Cyborgs". YEAH... This is just a really bad take.

Asking for accessibility functions (which are already part of the specifications of most competent video game design) is right up there with asking that WASD be an option for movement on K&M. This isn't asking for something new. This is asking for the game's design to not to actively punish its playerbase with unfriendly controls. NO ONE should be forced to have to click a pistol 10 times in 1 second just so they can feel like they're getting their DPS they deserve and spec for.

If you think THIS is the line where "self destructive tendencies" is crossed... by the Lotus have I got a bridge to sell you. Or at least 10,000 dollars worth of FIFA packs.

[Skoomaseller]

>be DE

>easiest and best solution (option in setting) right in their face

>use the most ???-tier "solution" to the problem

>problem still persists 

well done

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2022-05-03 at 6:14 PM, Salenstormwing said:

(11-30-22) EDIT: There was a minor change to (SOME) Semi-Auto weapons, in today's patch, 33.2.0. Some Semi-Auto Weapons had their RoF to bring them down to "human" levels of usable and that allowed the devs to tweak them to hit harder and be MORE usable. This does NOT solve issues like my own where I suffer from repetitive motions, as the weapons DO require a lot of button presses, they'll just require LESS clicks now. Better, but not Best.

 

UGH

I hated this change

totally ruins the feel of these weapons

I really liked the 'fan the hammer' feel on my Vasto Prime

and yeah, a trigger mode to help with this would have been -nice-

but instead, they just killed the fire rate and now its just not fun to use it

its just a slow pistol like the magnus now, no more cowboy trick shooting

would have been better off doing no change at all, at least then I'd still be using the gun...

 

[Salenstormwing]

So, it's been almost 2.5 months since the 33.2.0 update that brought changes to Semi-Auto weapons and I have to say...

 

I haven't noticed any change. Because I'm not using the weapons. Because reducing the RoF while buffing damage was a decent first attempt to help the issue, the fact remains it does require an ungodly amount of clicking to do what could be easily handled by changing the weapon to Auto, I just don't get. Heck, for console players, make it Pressure-Sensitive Auto, where the trigger effects how slow/fast your RoF would be as your mechanical bio-robot gets told the command to click something so I don't have to. Of course that'd be harder to do with PCs on K&M, but for console players, trigger pulls of various levels = RoF ramping up or down, that sounds really neat.

Which means we won't get it. And people will continue to NOT use Semi-Auto weapons. Hey DE ANYBODY, can you post the stats of what the percentage of use was of the changed Semi-Auto weapons before vs after the 33.2.0 update? I want to know how (in)effective the change was.

For Science(tm).

[Salenstormwing]

Merp.

Still no list of percentage of Semi-Auto Weapon Useage since 33.2.0. I honestly want to see this. Did the changes help, or are people still too distracted by easy priming with weapons like the Kuva Nukor and other primer Secondaries with Auto-Triggers?

If they're getting used more, I haven't seen it. And I haven't seen an accessibility changes since the "sort of/semi-not-really" changes of 33.2.0.

Most likely the reason they don't/won't add an accessibility option to change trigger function, is DE is afraid they'd make something too powerful and have to nerf it. Oh no... I'd complain about wanting an auto-trigger or a burst auto-trigger on some weapons, but I can't hear DE over the sounds of the "nerfed" Kuva Zarr, which still is a very, very powerful weapon, even with their nerf to... *checks notes* ...the weapon's ammo amount. Oh no... if only Protea's Dispensery wasn't a thing.

Oh, here's an idea; add 1 more passive to Mesa. Using semi-auto secondaries now are full-auto, because MESA. If she can shoot up the town with her Peacemaker, I think she can fan-fire a pistol without me having to pull the trigger every single time I want to shoot my Magnus revolver.

But yeah, this won't happen, and until we see the chart on weapon useage before and after the 33.20 changes.... we won't see anything else till then.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Salenstormwing said:

Still no list of percentage of Semi-Auto Weapon Useage since 33.2.0. I honestly want to see this. Did the changes help, or are people still too distracted by easy priming with weapons like the Kuva Nukor and other primer Secondaries with Auto-Triggers?

If they're getting used more, I haven't seen it.

I'd like to see the numbers too.  Because, to be fair, I think it'd be hard to see an increase even if their approach was wildly successful.  A lot of those weapons weren't good in the first place, or are weapons that people tend to quickly advance out of.   They're also almost all single target, which means there is a larger meta issue suppressing their usage in general.  And  some of those numbers are potentially about to be thrown off with  incarnon adapters coming.

_{(It was update 32.2.0, by the way.)}

Speaking personally, it got me mildly more interested in a few weapons like Akbolto Prime  and Magnus Prime.  But 5 base RoF (4 with Creeping Bullseye) is still too fast to be comfortable for me for sustained shooting, so it's just a feeling that I'm not wasting as much of the potential RoF as I was before.

Anyway, pretty terrible fix, even for a bandaid fix,  that needlessly irked people who liked the way the weapons handled before, without truly improving accessibility.

[Salenstormwing]

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

_{(It was update 32.2.0, by the way.)}

Speaking personally, it got me mildly more interested in a few weapons like Akbolto Prime  and Magnus Prime.  But 5 base RoF (4 with Creeping Bullseye) is still too fast to be comfortable for me for sustained shooting, so it's just a feeling that I'm not wasting as much of the potential RoF as I was before.

Oh, my bad. Type-y type-y figuring out which update is which is hard when it's easier to say "The Semi Auto Change" one.

But yeah, 5 RoF is still pretty rough. 0.20 seconds per click is just a LOT of clicks. Mesa's Peacemakers isn't like that. Could you imagine having to click every time you needed to make her shoot a target? That would be horrible. Same with the Semi-Auto weapons.

But seriously, Burst-Auto... it's a great way to shoot that promotes easy aim while not being a bullet hose. There are a few weapons like it in-game that use the mode, and I absolutely love them, despite most of them being absolute trash out-of-meta, because it feels GOOD to use.

So much of the game uses auto-triggers. Hold down the Space bar, and you can keep auto-kipping up a wall, or keep wall-run-hopping along it. Why is it certain weapons CAN NOT have it for player comfort?

Either way, I hope we get that info tomorrow at the Dev Stream.

[Lilybun]

Vasto is my favourite secondary, the RoF changes helped a bit because its less clicks to kill enemies now but its still painful to try and hit decent dps against targets that dont die in one hit.

I have RSI. I switched over to laetum to use a gun that deals so much damage I dont need to spam click. Would love to use the vasto again some day, or light attack melee weapons for that matter. I know workarounds exist in the form of macros and binding M1 to mouse wheel but surely DE can implement this through settings?

[Salenstormwing]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:56 PM, Lilybun said:

Vasto is my favourite secondary, the RoF changes helped a bit because its less clicks to kill enemies now but its still painful to try and hit decent dps against targets that dont die in one hit.

I have RSI. I switched over to laetum to use a gun that deals so much damage I dont need to spam click. Would love to use the vasto again some day, or light attack melee weapons for that matter. I know workarounds exist in the form of macros and binding M1 to mouse wheel but surely DE can implement this through settings?

My favorite was the Akmagnus, myself. I know I put an ungodly amount of forma into it, just because it felt and sounded good, back in the day. But the fact that clicking something so much, for so long, I can see why you with a Repetitive Stress Injury would find the Vasto unfriendly to use even with the changes.

That's why I want an accessibility option to make semi-auto work for folks who merely want to hold down a button.

This was even addressed by one of the Motor Accessibility analysis of Warframe.

Quote

Repeated Button Presses: choose between a tap or a hold

This is why you don't have to tap E to free Kahl's buddies but just press and hold E. Why can't we get this for what folks want, like shooting and melee? Slow it down if the game requires something to balance it, but for the love of the players, let the PLAYERS decide what's best for them and give them the tools to play it without losing satisfaction or risk suffering chronic pain.

[Tiltskillet]

https://www.fanbyte.com/games/guides/how-to-enable-full-auto-on-all-weapons-in-destiny-2/

:/

Quote

 

Senior Designer Robert Schuster joined Bungie in February of [2021] and immediately started asking about what improvements could be made. “On my third week at Bungie and the same week I became a founding lead of our club, I had a chance to talk with one of my favorite designers, Chris Proctor,” Schuster said. “As many of you know he’s a driving force behind shaping the weapon sandbox and keeping our weapons and the way we use them feeling fresh Season over Season.” 

 

“I was hesitant at first to mention [to Chris] one of my barriers: fast firing non-automatic weapons like Scout Rifles and Hand Cannons cause me hand pain during longer sessions. Why couldn’t we have a way to enable auto-fire on these kinds of weapons? I braced for a negative response. Instead, he heartily agreed and mentioned it was something he had already been considering as something that we could work toward including in the game.

 

What do you think, DE?  I'd love to see this included in your own sort of Accessibility at DE initiative. 

[Salenstormwing]

On 4/6/2023 at 11:17 AM, Tiltskillet said:

https://www.fanbyte.com/games/guides/how-to-enable-full-auto-on-all-weapons-in-destiny-2/

:/

What do you think, DE?  I'd love to see this included in your own sort of Accessibility at DE initiative. 

Are you kidding me? Destiny 2 allows it, but we still don't have this in Warframe?

Come on, DE. Even Destiny 2 thinks it's B.S. to have to click as much as one does, and their guns don't have NEARLY as high a RoF as the ones in Warframe.

[Drasiel]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:17 AM, Tiltskillet said:

https://www.fanbyte.com/games/guides/how-to-enable-full-auto-on-all-weapons-in-destiny-2/

:/

What do you think, DE?  I'd love to see this included in your own sort of Accessibility at DE initiative. 

hey, do you have a link to that interview you quoted?

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

hey, do you have a link to that interview you quoted?

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50745

[Drasiel]

36 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50745

thank you!

[Salenstormwing]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50745

“I was hesitant at first to mention [to Chris] one of my barriers: fast firing non-automatic weapons like Scout Rifles and Hand Cannons cause me hand pain during longer sessions. Why couldn’t we have a way to enable auto-fire on these kinds of weapons? I braced for a negative response. Instead, he heartily agreed and mentioned it was something he had already been considering as something that we could work toward including in the game. You may have seen rumblings about upcoming changes in this area in recent TWAB posts and we hope you’ll stay tuned for more updates.”

Do we need a senior designer in DE to have to have issues with high RoF non-auto weapons giving them hand pain to get them to understand how some of us have already been dealing with this problem personally?

Please DE, give us a sign...

[Salenstormwing]

I went ahead and updated the main post with the Bungie article as well as the quote about how the devs on Destiny 2 did the thing I'm continuing to ask here.

Thank you all for your help and continued support. It's been over 342 Days since I started this. That's just over 11 months.

[thetdw2000]

This is the kind of situation where they could easily implement this as a mod (like Deep Rock Galactic's automatic fire overclock for the Subata 120 which increases fire rate but also increases recoil) but because they refuse to address the flaws in the modding system such a mod would be considered a "waste of a slot".

Then again they could also lean more into the hand cannon (i.e. magnus) vs bullet hose (i.e. akstiletto) divide, where each shot of a semi-auto is very powerful and capable of one-tapping enemies (at the cost of a very slow fire rate) whereas the bullet hose lets you more easily spray and pray.

Edited April 14, 2023 by thetdw2000

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, thetdw2000 said:

his is the kind of situation where they could easily implement this as a mod (like Deep Rock Galactic's automatic fire overclock for the Subata 120 which increases fire rate but also increases recoil) but because they refuse to address the flaws in the modding system such a mod would be considered a "waste of a slot".

The flaws in the modding system can go very deep for this topic.  It's not merely limited slots and not-limited-enough damage mods, though these are very serious problems.  But when it comes to addressing accessibility issues, things like weapon capacity and mod acquisition are factors as well.

I think trigger mods are only a good fit if they cost zero capacity, get a free restricted slot (separate from the exilus slot), and are available without RNG on the first day someone starts up the game.  At that point it's basically a toggle.  So for me it brings up the question of "Why not just a toggle?".  

The only reasonable answer I can come up with is if it's easier for DE to implement the mod solution than an individual weapon toggle.   If that's the case, fine.  I just want a solid solution, not necessarily the one that seems most elegant to me as a bystander.