Accessibility: Trigger Mod/Toggle/Auto-Melee Please (aka, stop making me click like crazy)

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-08-13 at 3:12 AM, Salenstormwing said:

The problem is, DE has not given any indication on how they'd like to handle this, and as such, I'm forced to look at every option of fixing the issue. I'd love an Across the Board Accessibility Toggle on the System Menu in-game, but despite that being an industry Best Practice, we haven't gotten that.

DE and devs in general not giving feedback on feedback kind of urks me because they make the final decision but never mention if they try it or test a concept until its in or forgotten, and thats considering if they have time or bother doing so actively enough 

Then you have unhelpful criticism of suggestions or ideas without making points for or against but they try to gatekeep or "thats a stupid idea" "i don't like" into an argument leaving threads and discussions messy

[Salenstormwing]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

DE and devs in general not giving feedback on feedback kind of urks me because they make the final decision but never mention if they try it or test a concept until its in or forgotten, and thats considering if they have time or bother doing so actively enough 

I would love that sort of feedback, but I don't think there's a DE Forum to Test to Forum network for information to flow. Except DE's Pablo, who seems to be the only person who is like "HEY, guess what I'm working on, check this out!" sort of thing. Pablo's the best.

But yeah, DE does take suggestions from forum members, but the information we get back often isn't very quick or often.

[Salenstormwing]

There are ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS coming to Warframe!

Auto-Melee, Enemy Visibility Settings

THIS WAS JUST DISCUSSED at TennoCon! WOO!

 

Now to hope that means we'll get Auto-Trigger too.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 35 minutes, Salenstormwing a dit :

There are ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS coming to Warframe!

Auto-Melee, Enemy Visibility Settings

THIS WAS JUST DISCUSSED at TennoCon! WOO!

 

Now to hope that means we'll get Auto-Trigger too.

The battle is at least half won. Congrats man, and can't wait to enjoy it for myself. I was surprised to see them even go as far as to say "we feel like this should be the default".

[Harutomata]

On 2023-08-26 at 11:44 PM, Salenstormwing said:

There are ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS coming to Warframe!

Auto-Melee, Enemy Visibility Settings

THIS WAS JUST DISCUSSED at TennoCon! WOO!

 

Now to hope that means we'll get Auto-Trigger too.

We just need to convince DE to add auto-shoot to semi-auto weapons now.

[Salenstormwing]

Welp, the Devstream happened. The Accessibility section write-up is in the Dev Workshop area. Here's a link to it:

Auto-Melee; yes!

Auto-Trigger; no.

It's only been 1 year and 4 months of pushing for change. I guess I can wait a bit longer for trigger-functions.

[Hexerin]

It makes sense for melee, because there's no alternative "fire modes" for melee. It's all just manual swinging.

By adding a toggle that makes semi-auto/burst weapons fire automatically, you might as well just not bother adding a toggle. Because literally nobody will have the toggle turned off, as the whole point of a semi-auto/burst weapon is that they get to be stronger because they require manual input. Leaving such a toggle off would literally be gimping your gameplay, because a human being is physically incapable of maintaining a perfect cyclic rate.

Adding a mod would be a whole other can of worms, because you'd have to design it with downside(s) to counter the upside of consistency that auto fire brings.

So no, we absolutely 100% do not need this, and I genuinely hope DE never adds it.

[Salenstormwing]

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

It makes sense for melee, because there's no alternative "fire modes" for melee. It's all just manual swinging.

By adding a toggle that makes semi-auto/burst weapons fire automatically, you might as well just not bother adding a toggle. Because literally nobody will have the toggle turned off, as the whole point of a semi-auto/burst weapon is that they get to be stronger because they require manual input. Leaving such a toggle off would literally be gimping your gameplay, because a human being is physically incapable of maintaining a perfect cyclic rate.

Adding a mod would be a whole other can of worms, because you'd have to design it with downside(s) to counter the upside of consistency that auto fire brings.

So no, we absolutely 100% do not need this, and I genuinely hope DE never adds it.

Actually, melee does have alternative "fire modes". Heavy Melee Attacks and Glaive/Thrown Melee weapons are different from standard melee attacks. While they aren't changing Heavy Melee Attacks, they aren't changing the Glaive/Thrown Melee weapons with the auto-melee function. You'd know that if you read the Dev write-up about it.

As for your "they get to be stronger because they require because they require manual input"... What's wrong with making these sorts of weapons stronger? Not sure if you pay much attention to the state of the game, but most semi-auto/burst weapons are woefully under powered in a game that's become a horde shooter where weapons with the ability to hit multiple targets or larger areas is more useful than you're Mk1 Lato. Frankly, semi-auto weapons getting this function wouldn't change the game other than it would allow some players to use weapons they invested forma in half a decade in to be able to use them instead of yet another Kuva Nukor for the fact that it wouldn't be painful to use finally.

Also, this is a PvE game. Destiny 2, a PvP and PvE game, thought this was a big enough issue that they made it a function. It's a big enough deal that it's Best Practices for the video game industry.

[Tiltskillet]

11 hours ago, Hexerin said:

It makes sense for melee, because there's no alternative "fire modes" for melee. It's all just manual swinging.

By adding a toggle that makes semi-auto/burst weapons fire automatically, you might as well just not bother adding a toggle. Because literally nobody will have the toggle turned off, as the whole point of a semi-auto/burst weapon is that they get to be stronger because they require manual input.

 

Credible theory from a game design standpoint, that doesn't seem borne out by the evidence afaict. There are some semi-auto weapons that are inordinately strong for their MR, but there are also plenty that are inordinately weak.  Same with auto. 

Maybe it was DE's intention to arrange it that way, but they may as well not have bothered.  Plus any serious outliers that arise can always be changed via stat adjustments if absolutely necessary.  Not quite as easy to fix tendonitis.

And a reminder:  semiauto to auto conversion is already available to macro users and the game's ecosystem hasn't  been taken over by snipers, bows, Kuva Brakk, or even Incarnon Lato Vandal.  Adding the feature in game will just make it equally accessible to everyone.  Something I believe the game absolutely should encourage.

 

[Salenstormwing]

So yeah, if he wants to go voice his disapproval, he can do it to the Devs. I'm sorry some people seem to think that making a game not actively injure people in the first place by reducing the possibility of injuries forming (or at least delaying the onset from age).

Anyways, feel free to ignore the individual I'm no longer talking to as well. I should have remembered why I stopped talking with them before.

And also, other people have brought up the same issue in the Auto-Melee Dev Discussion thread, where folks are actively wanting a less strenuous gaming experience.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2022-05-04 at 11:14 AM, Salenstormwing said:

(4-10-23) EDIT: Hello all. I'd like to thank all those who have commented and kept liking the suggestion of an Accessability switch for Semi & Burst to be changed to Full Auto & Burst-Auto options. It means a lot both for me, and for folks who enjoy playing Warframe but suffer issues with arthritis, tendonitis, and other maladies that inflict pain to folks merely trying to play the game but find certain weapons painful to use.

I recently found out that Bungie actually had one of their Senior Developers come out and tell their staff about this situation, and they created options to add Accessability to their games, as seen in the following article: https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50745

“I was hesitant at first to mention [to Chris] one of my barriers: fast firing non-automatic weapons like Scout Rifles and Hand Cannons cause me hand pain during longer sessions. Why couldn’t we have a way to enable auto-fire on these kinds of weapons? I braced for a negative response. Instead, he heartily agreed and mentioned it was something he had already been considering as something that we could work toward including in the game. You may have seen rumblings about upcoming changes in this area in recent TWAB posts and we hope you’ll stay tuned for more updates.” 

The devs over at Bungie went forth and added the Full Auto switch so their revolvers and scout rifles and the like could be used less painfully. If Bungie can see this as an issue, why can't we see it as an issue in Warframe, where Semi & Burst weapons have MUCH higher Rates Of Fire than their Destiny 2 breathern? Do we need DE's devs to have to suffer with the players already suffering to make them understand why this would be a nice change to make?

SAS 4 Z Assault also fixed this issue and is a extremely smaller type of Warframe

The flash version had semi, auto, and burst with even multishot being more noticable

It was horrible to spam click a thousand times even for a moment especially when they didn't do damage

The steam version had the same fire modes except the modes were just how fast the fire rate was, 2> - 5~ - 12~ - 24<

The Semi being holdable immediately made mediocre into the best weapons possible but only for punch through and chain damage, They still kept some weapons like explosives semi so it worked out

However it was a 2d game so it worked, In Warframe though it is still better to have auto

They even had a trash furis weapon aswell so it can fit

[Salenstormwing]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

SAS 4 Z Assault also fixed this issue and is a extremely smaller type of Warframe

The flash version had semi, auto, and burst with even multishot being more noticable

It was horrible to spam click a thousand times even for a moment especially when they didn't do damage

The steam version had the same fire modes except the modes were just how fast the fire rate was, 2> - 5~ - 12~ - 24<

The Semi being holdable immediately made mediocre into the best weapons possible but only for punch through and chain damage, They still kept some weapons like explosives semi so it worked out

However it was a 2d game so it worked, In Warframe though it is still better to have auto

They even had a trash furis weapon aswell so it can fit

Several of the pistols in Warframe could very easily reach RoFs over 10 before the devs nerfed their performance a while back to "help" with issue of repetitive clicks, but in the end, it hasn't really changed much.

Along with Auto-Melee's keeping of certain weapons using the system we have currently (those are all the thrown weapons like Glaives and the Wolf Sledge), I wouldn't mind seeing the same done for weapons with multiple-trigger options like the Tiberon Prime and the Kuva Hind, where selection of trigger type is a feature.

DE could make a majority of weapons work with an auto-trigger and it wouldn't effect the balance of the game, but it would promote folks going back to using those weapons they might have that they can't normally use because of the requirement of tapping the weapon like a maniac. Akjagara Prime, honestly any of the Ak-Prime pistols... so many fun weapons, that are just painful to use for an extended amount of time because the game has become a horde shooter over the last 10 years.

As mentioned before, somewhere in the last 7 pages, Xbox even suggests using auto-triggers instead of individual trigger presses to help reduce the chances of causing a RSI as part of their Best Practices. I'm sure DE will eventually look into this. They obviously took some time to look into it when it came to Auto-Melee and what not, having only been announced back at Tennocon '23.

Anyways, welcome aboard.

[Harutomata]

I appreciate the auto-melee, but can we address the elephant in the room?
If we can get a relief from pushing a button multiple times per second with left hand, why can't we get the same accessibility option for right hand where some weapons expect the player to push a button five times per second or even more?
Yes, Akjagara requires you to click 5 times, UNMODDED. Now imagine if you added Lethal Torrent, a Duviri rate of fire decree or a Wisp haste mote.

Worse cases of CTS and arthritis are acknowledged as disabilities. DE, please, accommodate your players.

[Salenstormwing]

9 hours ago, Harutomata said:

I appreciate the auto-melee, but can we address the elephant in the room?
If we can get a relief from pushing a button multiple times per second with left hand, why can't we get the same accessibility option for right hand where some weapons expect the player to push a button five times per second or even more?
Yes, Akjagara requires you to click 5 times, UNMODDED. Now imagine if you added Lethal Torrent, a Duviri rate of fire decree or a Wisp haste mote.

Worse cases of CTS and arthritis are acknowledged as disabilities. DE, please, accommodate your players.

I loved my Akjagara. It was a great weapon. Then I got older and my clicky-click finger decided that many button presses was unrealistic for its performance in-game.

Half the reason I use a Kuva Nukor is because it doesn't force me to click like a maniac. If they made it semi-auto, I'd insta-stop using it from all my loadouts, and find something more comfortable to use.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

13 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

I loved my Akjagara. It was a great weapon. Then I got older and my clicky-click finger decided that many button presses was unrealistic for its performance in-game.

Half the reason I use a Kuva Nukor is because it doesn't force me to click like a maniac. If they made it semi-auto, I'd insta-stop using it from all my loadouts, and find something more comfortable to use.

The fire rate of the akjagara gives arthritis flashbacks. 

[Salenstormwing]

On 2023-10-17 at 9:20 AM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The fire rate of the akjagara gives arthritis flashbacks. 

Yeah, it does. I still miss the reload though. SO GOOD.

 

Anyways, new Patch is coming in about 12-15 minutes (according to Reb's livestream going on right now). Feel free to discuss Auto-Melee once you get a chance to enjoy it with the new update. We'll still be discussing Auto-Trigger as well, but I do want to make sure the Auto-Melee is working good for everyone, so any feedback you have would be nice to hear.

Have fun. Leave notes.

[Drasiel]

On 2023-10-16 at 5:00 PM, Salenstormwing said:

I loved my Akjagara. It was a great weapon. Then I got older and my clicky-click finger decided that many button presses was unrealistic for its performance in-game.

Half the reason I use a Kuva Nukor is because it doesn't force me to click like a maniac. If they made it semi-auto, I'd insta-stop using it from all my loadouts, and find something more comfortable to use.

It's not just our physical age that changed, it's a problem of power creep in the game itself. I used to main the akboltos in the long ago, and back then the fire rate of 10/s wasn't a problem because you never needed to hit max fire rate to kill something. It was killing most enemies at 2-3 shots and while bosses were bullet sponges, they had always been bullet sponges and you weren't spending that long killing them that it hurt much (unless you had really bad luck). 

Semi-auto guns have always been intended to need less shots than full auto to kill something, but that design intent doesn't work in an endlessly escalating game without very careful management. Even new versions of the weapons face the same issues eventually. I really hope that one day we get an in-game hold toggle for guns and I think the automelee is at least in some ways probably a test of how that behaviour will work before anyone tries to tackle the much more complex issues of trigger types.

[Salenstormwing]

So yeah, the last month has been... pretty boring on the getting DE to recognize auto-triggers being needed.

Several threads and comments abound across the forums about the suggestion, but still no word.

Auto-Melee is nice though, although I tend to still tap-tap-tap it when I use it because I've only been playing this game for 10 years and muscle memory is hard to unlearn.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, Salenstormwing said:

So yeah, the last month has been... pretty boring on the getting DE to recognize auto-triggers being needed.

Several threads and comments abound across the forums about the suggestion, but still no word.

Auto-Melee is nice though, although I tend to still tap-tap-tap it when I use it because I've only been playing this game for 10 years and muscle memory is hard to unlearn.

if we are going to hear anything I wouldn't expect it before next year we've still got whispers in the walls and cross save slated for this year so heads are probably down hard to meet those deadlines.

Will still be waiting with baited breath though and definitely encourage more poking come new year.

[Skoomaseller]

auto-trigger next. next year, Insha'Allah.

[Salenstormwing]

Hi.

Mostly here to point out that I've been seeing a LOT of folks asking for Auto-Melee to be a Toggle in the settings menu. I've seen such suggestions around the forums. And I agree. I'm not here to force things onto everyone. I want folks to be able to customize the gameplay to their needs and abilities.

And if Auto-Trigger comes to pass, I'd hope DE makes sure the option to turn it off is in the Accessibility functions as well.

Everyone wins that way.

[Binket_]

On 2022-05-03 at 10:14 PM, Salenstormwing said:

MAKE AUTO-MELEE (and future Auto-Trigger) HAVE A TOGGLE

Let players turn it off it bothers

Honestly should've been a toggle to begin with.
I imagine DE hastily shoved it in because "Oh, everybody will be on board with this since it seems like 99% of our playerbase suffers from wrists made of soap suds."

Personally, I find the concept of "making everything auto" a bit in the ballpark as "let's make stances simpler".
Watered down for the sake of "Muh accessibility"-- if everything becomes ungodly easy, nothing really matters.
There's a technical joy in making the most of Semi-Auto and even Burst Weapons, namely in making them count.
^{I.E. Tonkor, Rubico Prime, Zenith, etc.}
Warframe as a game has very little opposition, so all it has left is player execution to pick up the slack.
That's why the game is known for it's amazing movement system and plethora of weapons to choose from.

 

This isn't foolproof as someone CAN just put a macro on there... or use their scroll wheel if all else. 
I do feel some weapons like the Vasto kinda don't really need to be Semi-Auto or Burst.
... but for the most part? Simply "making everything auto" is just another brick in the "let's not engage" tower of mediocrity in my eyes.

I understand some have health issues with it. but there does come a point where I have to question "But how will this impact the game?"
Mainly because it hasn't been asked enough lately.
Hell, if Revenant is considered "Accessibility" and not the overused tumor he is?
I don't wanna play this game anymore because there's nothing to do of value.
^{Nobody plays this game to do mindless tasks to the point of self-lobotomy, we have other games for that of varying effect.}

 

[Salenstormwing]

3 hours ago, Binket_ said:

This isn't foolproof as someone CAN just put a macro on there... or use their scroll wheel if all else. 
I do feel some weapons like the Vasto kinda don't really need to be Semi-Auto or Burst.
... but for the most part? Simply "making everything auto" is just another brick in the "let's not engage" tower of mediocrity in my eyes.

For some of us it IS an accessibility issue.

And I'd be okay with it being an opt-in option on the accessibility setting page. Other games have such functions. I don't see why Warframe shouldn't as well. Then again, said other games also have it as a setting for players to decide.

This has always been an accessibility issue when I lobbied for it over 20 months ago. I'm not saying your point is bad, but I think there is room for OPTIONS. If a player can use it so they can get some use out of weapons they can't physically use otherwise without risking pain... then let the PLAYER decide what they want to do, and how best for them to enjoy the game the way they want to play. Plus, if Warframe on mobile becomes a thing... players are GOING to need an auto-trigger. But again, that'll be the player making the decision. If they want to tap their screen like crazy otherwise, that's their call.

But yes, Auto-melee needs an accessibility option to turn on or off. I'm okay with that. Hopefully DE will fix that soon. Everyone wins that way.

[Drasiel]

8 hours ago, Binket_ said:

<snip>

There's a technical joy in making the most of Semi-Auto and even Burst Weapons, namely in making them count.
^{I.E. Tonkor, Rubico Prime, Zenith, etc.}
<snip>

Could you explain this further? What do you mean by "making them count"?

[PollexMessier]

Please, do not ever suggest a mod to fix an accessibility issue. Especially because the devs might actually take that approach if they think people would be okay with it.

This should be a setting. Full stop. People should not have to sacrifice a mod slot for a feature that allows them to use weapons they otherwise wouldn't be able to due to health problems. It should've been added along with auto-mele. Hell it should've been added ages before auto-mele.

Edited November 20, 2023 by PollexMessier