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Next Update Post-Angels of the Zariman


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1 minute ago, Lord_Harkkon said:

^^^^

This ! 

Please don't listen to noisy cries from those who think the game is too hard for the love of Clem !

The game is heading in the right direction please don't waste it by listening to AOE and melee spammers.

 

Looking forward to directional sling though !

you guys don't understand that spamming melee is still better than going into operator? it's almost depleting the overguard the same way, except that your warframe still has all their powers, life, and isn't some squishy bug. it's still better for now to spam melee on them rather than using your operator... 

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Posted (edited)
hace 22 minutos, FSK41 dijo:

Can we pls keep some goddamn challenge in the game? If we decrease the Overguard CC resistance increase something else to compensate, mainly HP and possibly speed or other threatening mechanics. It was such a good step to force the melee spammers to use more brain so dont go back to easymode please

The problem with full CC resistance is that is not real challenge. It only punishes a sector of the characters, squishy frames that relied on CC to survive. And those frames never were near the top of the most used list. Mesa, Wukong, Saryn, Inaros, Nezha, Rhino remain unbothered by this update while underutilized frames that already struggled to keep up are even in a worse position. The real problem of the AoE spam meta remains as is and the other options are punished. This just cements the death of CC even further because not being able to not even slow a hitscan enemy will result in a one hit death for a fragile Warframe. Meanwhile Wukong's clone keeps running around spamming a Kuva Bramma like nothing changed. This change wasn't good and it needs revision. It doesn't help to the health of the game and the meta and if nothing changes at least it will be proven with the end of year statistics.

hace 10 minutos, Lord_Harkkon dijo:

^^^^

This ! 

Please don't listen to noisy cries from those who think the game is too hard for the love of Clem !

The game is heading in the right direction please don't waste it by listening to AOE and melee spammers.

Have you even bothered to read the complaints players have about it? Because you've understood it in the most opposite way possible. No one is crying that the game is too hard. This change doesn't make the game hard. The change is either pointless or unfair and destructive depending on what Warframe you're playing as. The AoE and melee spammers as you call them NEVER used CC stuff. They just used self-buffers and tanks to kill everything in sight instantly. Or use a nuker frame that didn't need to survive. CC was used for the OTHER options that underperformed compared to those and that's why they were able to not perish instantly. This change effectively removed CC usability and the option to use anything other than that AoE and melee spam you so much despise. It's really clear what sector of the meta used CC and which didn't. Like, crystal clear.

Edited by Vactro
Adding a second quote.
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Posted (edited)
vor 54 Minuten schrieb [DE]Megan:

Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

This doesnt sound like a good approach.

 

  1. For the most part, new players or players who are not that far into the game have problems dealing with new Eximus.
  2. long-time players dont really have problems dealing with Overguard since high-end gear handles them easily

 

Now, who will benefit from additional arcanes which are probably behind some higher-tier content (Eidolons, Zariman, whatever)? I doubt it will help the players that need or desire changes to eximus the most. Either they dont even have access to the content that will provide those Arcanes or they are undergeared for that content aswell or they simply still have lots of other things on their to-do-list besides farming new Arcanes.

 

Besides that, the only purpose of this new Arcane slot is to put this one Arcane in it that allows us to deal with Overguard. I guess you want to offer a variety of Arcanes for this slot - but lets be real: there is no need for different options, and there will be only 1 Arcane that will do the job best - and since it will be mandatory to deal with Overguard all the other options that might sound fun or useful wont matter.

 

This feels like "ok, our system isnt working as intented, what shall we do?" - "lets just create another grind with gear that will solve problem".

  • Operators are supposed to be useful against Overguard/Eximus
  • they are not
  • directly address the problem and make them useful or create "content" to solve that problem?

 

I think there are 2 simple ways of addressing this:

  • huge damage multiplier for amps against overguard only (not in the form of gear, as a game mechanic)
  • add a 3rd operator ability that helps dealing with Overguard

 

On a sidenote: I hope you can evaluate who wants stronger Eximus and who doesnt. And i hope you can see who needs help dealing with Eximus and who doesnt. I hope you dont backpedal on the whole idea of Eximus as strong "mini-boss-type" unit up until a point where no one is really happy with them (still too strong for new players, no impact for vets). Recently i created this topic regarding this whole issue, and the approach you are communicating here so far feels like it ignores the underlying situation:

 

 

Edited by DreisterDino
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4 minutes ago, Gofretko said:

Until that awful Transference delay and Void Sling clunkiness get eliminated, I'm not playing.

Such a shame. I loved doing some Warframe a few times a week, it was so relaxing. Now I feel like I have to get gimped because of... what exactly?

Nice relaxing time I had and that was just taken away.

What possessed you to think that your core audience -- people who love speedy gameplay -- will just take such a huge nerf to utility and mobility without any protest?

That's the real mystery here.

dude press the melee button wile in operator it cuts the wait time down the middle

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Arcanes to fix problems is a really bad idea. Especially since we can only use two. As mikakor said, letting us have mod slots for amps would be great since it'd let things feel like things aren't so slow vs how things were back then. I do like challenges, but the flow shouldn't be disrupted as bad as the leech Eximus enemies, as one example, made things. The fix so they didn't target us when they couldn't see us is in the right step, but I feel like there could be more to make people enjoy fighting Eximus enemies, or in general those that have overguard without arcanes being used since that will be the weakest "fix" to this.

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please we don't want that delay when when we go out and in the wf also the delay or arcanes too like the one that heals us when we need it its 3 seconds of delay its not fun yet deadly for us  yet lets see what you bring guys

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3 minutes ago, MegaAbyss said:

dude press the melee button wile in operator it cuts the wait time down the middle

Please just stop saying this, its not true.

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6 minutes ago, MegaAbyss said:

dude press the melee button wile in operator it cuts the wait time down the middle

Or they could just... not have the wait time and have the same transference speed with the transference skill button be the same speed as the melee button.

"Then what's the use of the melee switch"

I dunno, what is the use of the Melee to Switch back to Warframe button?

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I would very much like to have some insights on how this update has impacted the player count of this game on each platforms. On pc, I barely find squads on pub these days, even at peak hours it take quite longer than it usually did. 

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Keep up the good work DE.

While i don't see the need to change overguard in anyway, i welcome any changes to improve the current struggle, i actually enjoy the beefy enemies.

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Posted (edited)

So, I have a few things to say about Overguard, and I'm sure none of this is new information or hasn't been covered.

One: As I predicted before the update, "Overguard is more vulnerable to Void damage" is presently pointless, because Amps don't do enough damage on their own to cut through a level-scaling Overguard, especially not on the level 70+ enemies common to the Zariman. Even enemies like Vomvalysts have a fixed level cap because Amps can't be expected to keep up with them any higher.

Two: Limbo previously had a special interaction with Eximus units, where the Rift prevented them from affecting units on the opposite side of the Rift from them. This is no longer the case, and because Eximus abilities are programmed like Warframe abilities, they bypass the Rift entirely. This is a huge and presumably unintentional nerf to Limbo, specifically, especially since it means his primary form of defense is shot.

Three: The fact that Eximus units are simply immune to CC while Overguard is active completely kills CC frames who have no other form of defense. Combine this with Overguard giving them multiplicative health pools, and high-level Eximus Stronghold missions like Defenses can be nigh impossible to complete because there are insanely tanky enemies who cannot be CC'd that can run straight up to defense objectives and unleash ability damage in addition to their attacks. The Eximus have jumped the shark, because "tanky against damage" and "immune to CC" offer no counterplay.

Now personally, I have a few suggestions in these regards:

  1. Amps gain a coefficient to scale damage to a target's level. This can be relatively low given that Amps already bypass resistances, but against Overguard, the vulnerability to Amp damage can be increased, allowing the Amps to actually deal sizable damage regardless of enemy level.
    (This I think is already necessary given there is existing content that outscales the Operators, like SP Ropalolyst.)
  2. When Eximus units use their abilities, this is cast directly from their Overguard as a resource pool, like Warframes do with Energy. Eximus units who produce barriers do so as an extension of their Overguard, so damage to the barrier also deals (mitigated) damage to the Overguard directly; Eximus units with offensive abilities deplete some amount of their Overguard every time they perform an attack, eventually running out of charges, but having more based on their level.
  3. Much like Sentient damage resistances, Eximus units' immunity to Crowd Control abilities is learned by exposure. Each time an Eximus unit encounters a new CC effect, it reduces it to a stagger and drains a significant percentage of Overguard to gain permanent resistance to future instances of that effect; each Eximus unit can only resist a fixed maximum number of unique CC abilities.
    1. Whether this resistance persists after Overguard is gone is up to you, but if it does, I'd also recommend letting Amp damage reset it.
  4. Eximus units can still learn immunity to Stasis, as well as the knockdown and stagger effects of Limbo's abilities, but Rift effects themselves are not counted by Overguard. (After all, enemies in the Rift technically can still attack and are actually immune to damage from outside it, so it's more of a sidegrade for them. Plus Banish is supposed to be a "remove a high priority enemy" effect by its very nature!)
    1. This still means that something needs to be done about their ability interaction against the Rift, but at the very least it's a start for giving Limbo some parity. I recommend having them prioritize enemies on the same side of the Rift as them with their abilities, however, in addition to ye old aura resistance.
  5. Heavy melee attacks are guaranteed to stagger or stun a unit with Overguard, scaling the stun duration/potency to the combo multiplier.

Just some ideas. I'm sure you have others on the table we haven't heard, but perhaps these may be inspirational to designing counterplay besides "shoot it with your Kuva Bramma and pray it dies before you do."

Edited by Archwizard
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52 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Our next Devstream will speak further to these changes - stay tuned! 

Any word on further adjustments to Naramon? It functionally has only 1 passive because Affinity Spike does nothing for in-mission progress or survival; there are no buffs, perks or abilities that trigger on affinity gain beyond syndicate weapons. The common suggestion is to fuse old Zenurik's Inner Might (Heavy attack efficiency) into Affinity Spike, turning it into "Inner Spike".

In addition, would it be possible to please clarify what the expected behavior is for Naramon's Lethal Levitation?

 Thanks.

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18 minutes ago, mikakor said:

no. we shouldn't have to use an arcane to be able to make use of amp damage on overguard, especially after YOU said that the amp alone should be enough to deal with it. you want a good solution? i have two for you. 

either let us mod amps, 8 mod slots, and an exilus. 

or make void amp damage ONE SHOT overguard. here, done. the one shot solution is the simplest, but the mod amp one would allow people to have a reason to use operator more often, if it can lead to interesting effects upon usage. :/ 

This is literally "add an issue YOU made and sell the fix to it" 

YOU said that the amp would be enough to deal with overguard. make it so. ONLY, the amp. no arcane, no nothing. unless we get a mod system for the amp, which would be particularly interesting. i cannot imagine the amount of utilise mods we could get for an 8 mod amp.

Honestly, I would LOVE to be able to mod amps.

Then make overgaurd like the gaurd on Kuva Gaurdians. Sling through the enemy or use a power on them, wipes off the overgaurd. Perfect solution IMO and makes it easy to wipe. On the flip side, for lower level players that don't have Operator form yet, they can still shoot it down. I think that also would be a great expierence for players as they go through the MSQ and go from these tough enemies and suddenly having a good way to deal with them. <3 Be like, "heck yeah!"

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb mikakor:

except that it didn't, lol. it was better to use your melee on the overguard rather than bother with operator. your warframe is tankier and attacks faster than your amp, and deals more damage. tough luck, but it didn't do anything except render CC frames useless :) 

 

it's honestly not that good either. that means people needs to wait or force to spend all their energy down to zero ( so dashing a lot of just plain out waiting ) rather than getting the buff immediately, so people would still just not use the operator. the people want that eximus dead "NOW", not "5 seconds later" 

allow me to rephrase: The genius people spamming melee on enemies affected by gloom so you can watch them die while eating popcorn* 

It is good that CC looses some effectiveness , it is not like it was entirely useless just not on that 2 enemies in the map

I had hoped that DOTs dont work on the overguard 

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53 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

Just don't nerf overguard too much. Stick to your vision of a more engaging gameplay experience, that doesn't trivialize eximus units. I know there's a very vocal part of the community screaming about it, but there's also many of us enjoying it atm. Warframe is a better game now than it was before the AotZ update. Void Cascade is the best thing that happened to this game since Disruption was added. 

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3 minutes ago, ---RNGesus--- said:

I would very much like to have some insights on how this update has impacted the player count of this game on each platforms. On pc, I barely find squads on pub these days, even at peak hours it take quite longer than it usually did. 

i feel like Switch hit a bit of a decline. there was a lot of players in zariman for a few days, but now it seems kinda dead. i have also noticed some missions dont get as many players as before.

it still has a decent amount of players. but  you can feel a bit of a decline.  

 

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Posted (edited)
il y a 17 minutes, Vactro a dit :

The problem with full CC resistance is that is not real challenge. It only punishes a sector of the characters, squishy frames that relied on CC to survive. And those frames never were near the top of the most used list. Mesa, Wukong, Saryn, Inaros, Nezha, Rhino remain unbothered by this update while underutilized frames that already struggled to keep up are even in a worse position. The real problem of the AoE spam meta remains as is and the other options are punished. This just cements the death of CC even further because not being able to not even slow a hitscan enemy will result in a one hit death for a fragile Warframe. Meanwhile Wukong's clone keeps running around spamming a Kuva Bramma like nothing changed. This change wasn't good and it needs revision. It doesn't help to the health of the game and the meta and if nothing changes at least it will be proven with the end of year statistics.

Have you even bothered to read the complaints player have about it? Because you've understood it in the most opposite way possible. The AoE and melee spammers as you call them NEVER used CC stuff. They just used self-buffers and tanks and kill everything in sight instantly. CC was used for the OTHER options that underperformed compared to those and that's why they were able to survive. This change effectively removed CC usability and the option to use anything other than that AoE and melee spam you so much despise. It's really clear what sector of the meta used CC and which didn't. Like, crystal clear.

Of course I read a lot of complaints. And I agree with you. I'm not against changes to make CC Frames effective against Overguard it's the other way around actually (Limbo Main here :D ) 

I was speaking about the spammers who don't even have to use their brains in general. Though I think there is a middle point we can't just allow eximus units to be frozen in time indefinetely, balance is required.

Sorry for the confusion

Edited by Lord_Harkkon
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vor 17 Minuten schrieb mikakor:

you guys don't understand that spamming melee is still better than going into operator? it's almost depleting the overguard the same way, except that your warframe still has all their powers, life, and isn't some squishy bug. it's still better for now to spam melee on them rather than using your operator... 

You understand going into operator isnt our goal ? 

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Please don't force us to use our mod slots, arcane slots, etc as bandaid fixes for what should be base functionality. That and adding grind (21 arcanes per) to fix what you yourselves admit are outstanding issues with the game.

 I do believe is was Jim (stephany) Sterling that once said,
Stop creation an artificial issue to just sell us back the fix later.

59 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.


If overguard so so much of an issue that people need a fix like an Arcane to do more damage or reduce its tolerance to it. Then just change the backend numbers to overguard to cap its reduction ceiling. Putting in an Arcane to fix an issue that the developers implanted is the worse way to go about it. I personally didnt see OG as an issue but I understand where it is coming from.

CC immunity and damage brickwalling is horrendous and should not be standard. DE has had a habit of doing this for the last few years, its honestly not excusable as in years past. Change the backend values of OG, implement a drone to destroy like that of Nullifiers. have a totem that is near by that needs removal.

Anything is better at this point if it adds mechanics to the game, to enrichen the games systems and add combat depth. Adding a Mod or an Arcane to fix issues like this is like offloading the burden onto the players. It will just make said Mod/Arance a new MANDATORY standard which is the BIGGEST things DE has preached about fixing for years

Spoiler

P.S. My intent is not to sound entitled or overly aggressive about things. I am just trying to give a legitimate post about my expression and view of the matter. I' not DE bashing, I just worried and concerned. I want to help and I hope these words kinda do that.

 

Edited by Darkfreack
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Vactro said:

The problem with full CC resistance is that is not real challenge

Can you please define in practical and applicable terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

The way I see it: An enemy that is not shut-down and/or enemies that are bullet-sponges can at least retaliate against you because they get to live enough as to do something unlike enemies you can shut-down and kill as soon as they spawn as if they were not even there to begin with.

Edited by Jarriaga
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18 minutes ago, mikakor said:

except that it didn't, lol. it was better to use your melee on the overguard rather than bother with operator. your warframe is tankier and attacks faster than your amp, and deals more damage. tough luck, but it didn't do anything except render CC frames useless :) 

 

it's honestly not that good either. that means people needs to wait or force to spend all their energy down to zero ( so dashing a lot of just plain out waiting ) rather than getting the buff immediately, so people would still just not use the operator. the people want that eximus dead "NOW", not "5 seconds later" 

What slow amp do you use ?

What I use
Proppa-Scaffold
Certus-Brace
Rahn-Prism
& Madurai for that extra punch of dmg

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I appreciate the sling touch ups, even though im personally not happy, its at least minimally comparable to what dash was.

But the direction for Overguard is honestly baffling, If you are making us grind for new arcanes just to deal with overguard and adding a new amp slot for it, thats not really a fix to Overguard in general. 

-Weapons can already deal with Overguard faster.
-Amps were suppose to eat Overguard, but they really dont.
-Overguard just kills CC frames. (Ala Vauban, etc)

Amps themselves need to do more damage SPECIFIALLY to Overguard, if you run out of Amp Energy, and there is still Overguard Up, then the damage hasn't been boosted far enough.
Honestly, if Amps aren't comparable to weapons in dealing with Overguard now, after grinding for what is a bandaid arcane and finally being the same or a bit better than weapons won't fix the underlying issues.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

In regards to Void Sling, we’re experimenting with directional changes such as strafing (sideways mobility) and backwards slings to allow more movement options.

Sounds good. Adding aim gliding for operators would also help with their mobility. It would be much easier to aim void sling mid air and help with changing directions.

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