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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Can you please define in practical, applying terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

The way I see it: An enemy that is not shut-down and/or enemies that are bullet-sponges can at least retaliate against you because they get to live enough as to do something.

Not if you're playing any of the Frames that:

a) Do massive Nuke Damage in a wide Area

b) Have a defensive buff in addition to a offensive plus + an AoE

Like, as much as people go one about how CC 'Doesn't let enemies retaliate', they ignore how Nuke Frames and self buffing AoEs do the same by just outright murdering/killing them right on the spot before they can do anything.

At least with CC Frames you need to press more buttons because most CC Frames don't have the ability to lift their damage sky-high.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

We would also like to apologize for the frustrations many of these bugs caused for our community. Much has been taken into account for future releases, so that we can avoid the bumps we saw during the initial launch.

As a long-time player, I've heard that many times before.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

In regards to Void Sling, we’re experimenting with directional changes such as strafing (sideways mobility) and backwards slings to allow more movement options. Strafe and back slings were tested during Void Sling’s development, but at the time we felt having similar directional control to bullet jump was important. Community feedback tells us that the more mobility options the better, and we are working on changes that meet that desire. Additionally we’re reviewing the code to resolve some Transference latency issues and considering other tweaks to Operators. 

Void Dash felt closer to bullet jumping than Void Sling does. You don't bullet jump by double jumping, and you don't need to hold the jump button down continuously to bullet jump. Void Dash was executed by simply crouching and tapping jump, exactly the same as a bullet jump.

Bringing directional movement back is great and all, but it's still going to feel bad if it's still using the Void Sling mechanism.

Just bring Void Dash back. Nobody (mostly) wants this Void Sling junk. Make it a toggle option if you want Void Sling to remain.

 

 

 

Edited by SteveCutler
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10 minutes ago, FSK41 said:

allow me to rephrase: The genius people spamming melee on enemies affected by gloom so you can watch them die while eating popcorn* 

It is good that CC looses some effectiveness , it is not like it was entirely useless just not on that 2 enemies in the map

I had hoped that DOTs dont work on the overguard 

what...? you went past my point. melee is STILL better to spam on overguard than operator currently is... as for CC, that's noe "some" . it's "All" . if an eximus gets near any CC squishy frame, they're done. some frames are tanky because of their abilities. CC frames survive BECAUSE of their CC. and eximus says "#*!% you, stupid frame, you die" . that's dumb. 

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you need to look at overguard from a new - middle ground players perspective they wont have many arcanes if any at all... and if you add new ones to help with overguard they likely going to be zariman content since it is the new new... alot of those folk have got to deal with the eximus with middling weapons till they can get arcanes from zariman content which is damn pointless because by then they may have weapons that basically make the arcanes obsolete

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Posted (edited)

 

6 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Not if you're playing any of the Frames that:

a) Do massive Nuke Damage in a wide Area

b) Have a defensive buff in addition to a offensive plus + an AoE

Like, as much as people go one about how CC 'Doesn't let enemies retaliate', they ignore how Nuke Frames and self buffing AoEs do the same by just outright murdering/killing them right on the spot before they can do anything.

At least with CC Frames you need to press more buttons because most CC Frames don't have the ability to lift their damage sky-high.

How does that answer my question? You just mentioned examples that also result in the same outcome: Enemies that can't retaliate. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Again: Please define in practical, applying terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

And for the record: Your examples are why I believe elite-level enemies should take significantly reduced or no ability damage (Including from weapon buff modifiers) and they should be able to fully bypass or turn off some WF ability defenses to level-down the field, in turn encouraging the use of base survivability mods like vitality, redirection and steel fiber rather than being abandoned. They should also deal percentage damage so it doesn't matter if you're Nyx or Inaros and still get killed in the same number of elite enemy attacks/hits.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Our objective for Angels of the Zariman 1.1 is to address top feedback points that required more development time, careful consideration, and code changes to implement.

 

What about the inability to transference as soon as the animation is finished playing? Will this be further tuned to not be a full second long before you can get back into your warframe? This has been one of the things that has been confusing to me since this was never addressed in a dev workshop and there is no visual feedback or anything indicating if this was intentional, a bug or an oversight. 

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

 

Oh awesome! My suggestions are: Make it so that void damage is actually viable against them along with dealing with normal defensive measures good against them, Limbo's rift stasis and Nyx's Psychic bolts are my hope, since bolts specifically states remove some defenses and overguard is advertised as a defense/

Also, I wouldn't mind if overguard was removed from the Thrax units they already have their second form that we need to deal with on top of their bugged attacks that always proc and not considered a status effect. 

If you are going to give more identity to operators, please make it so that operators and vehicle loadouts and individualized to loadouts having to constantly switch it in the arsenal simply because I want to enjoy a wider variety of content. I also wouldn't mind if archmelee got some love!

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We also plan to release the remaining 2 Incarnon weapons that were shown on Devstream #160, as well as some other goodies!

 

Oooohh nice! Would have wanted these released at launch though to make unveiling rivens more rewarding. Will be interesting to see if they get highly praised like the current incarnon weapons or more in-line as popular but not as good. 

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Angels of the Zariman 1.1 is our commitment to the community in addressing the feedback from the original Angels of the Zariman launch. Our next Devstream will speak further to these changes - stay tuned! 

 

Please also have it be fixing the endless mission rewards to not reward the same drop as a tier 1 bounty reward (rotation C lenses) and whatever is going on with Void Armageddon that is causing it to be way worse than the other two in terms of time commitment. 

I'd also like to see the bounties fixed from being a complete RNG fest having to see what the bounty reward AND mission type on a two hour rotating RNG clock is not fun to deal with. 

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

While these individual Hotfixes were needed to address crucial bugs, we have larger plans committed to addressing bigger feedback areas in our next major Update: Angels of the Zariman 1.1 (final name pending). We would also like to apologize for the frustrations many of these bugs caused for our community.

The bugs I badly want to see fixed:

Chat link functionality does not work for a select couple of important items I use, [primed ammo stock] and [voidplume quill]

Excavator progress UI can fail to show up for clients under certain situations

Excavator collision hitbox being fixed, right now the top of the excavator has no collision hitbox yet you can wall ride off of it. 

Akarius explosion fx not functionally properly for clients.

Sometimes the dormant angel can fail to be recognized causing a bounty failure and requiring an abort mission. 

 

I'd also like the see the Zariman get the advanced starchart treatment like Deimos got, making it eligible for Sortie missions, Nightmare missions and Syndicate missions. Along with getting fissures which Deimos still doesn't have.

Also hoping that extraction from endless Zariman missions is taken care of.

This announcements seems good but do you mind explaining exactly what the proposed changes are to Overguard and what sections of the Zariman are getting changed such as the couple of suggestions  I mentioned above before we get our hands on this patch?

Edited by XHADgaming
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hace 6 minutos, Lord_Harkkon dijo:

Of course I read a lot of complaints. And I agree with you. I'm not against changes to make CC Frames effective against Overguard it's the other way around actually (Limbo Main here :D ) 

I was speaking about the spammers who don't even have to use their brains in general. Though I think there is a middle point we can't just allow eximus units to be frozen in time indefinetely, balance is required.

Sorry for the confusion

I'm a Limbo main too haha, and I love playing with CC frames in general. I'm just pretty devastated with this update and the changes killed my will to play the game. If I can't use the characters I've paid money for skins and mastered over the years, all for an arbitrary and uneffective reason, I'm just not in the mood to play at all. Those spammers I don't see them talking about overguard because it doesn't affect their warframes of choice. They just keep killing and surviving everything like nothing ever happened.

hace 5 minutos, Jarriaga dijo:

Can you please define in practical and applicable terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

The way I see it: An enemy that is not shut-down and/or enemies that are bullet-sponges can at least retaliate against you because they get to live enough as to do something.

First of all I'm not the one who asked for more challenge ever, I just want to keep using the characters they #*!%ed over like they were before the update. But a bullet sponge is not a difficult enemy, is just a boring one. And you say they live enough to do something, they actually don't. That's the problem here. If somehow the changes they made affected everyone at the same level it would be fine. But Mesa and Wukong keep killing literally everything in miliseconds. As per my original comment in my thread, I understand that this was made in the name of balance. And I don't disagree that some enemies should not be easily CC'd, but a full immunity is not the right choice either and it's extremely unfair when it was never the meta option and the popular powerhouses remain unbothered by the addition of more eHP because they will eath through it like always. That's the problem.

 

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

Can you please define in practical, applying terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

The way I see it: An enemy that is not shut-down and/or enemies that are bullet-sponges can at least retaliate against you because they get to live enough as to do something.

Doesnt involve me but i understand the concern. I will express his view point like this.

CC immunity and Damage Gating just inflate the issue currently plaguing the game.
Instead of invalidating warframes and forcing us to nuke or all in on single targets, add more mechanics to the game. Making it so they take more hits will force the idea of BIGGER NUMBERS are a must. While CC IMMUNITY is make certain warframes COMPLETELY unjustifiable to play late game.

This forces a meta direction to change and being more of a must for some people. Instead what DE needs to do is add systems like overguard similar to that of Nullifers, where it is a system that can be countered. Nulls have a drone that can be popped to remove bubble for hit damage users, also high firerate or melee hits can reduce size  and standing chance against it. Add systems that change the nature and flow of combat without making these harsh brickwalls.

 

Personal Note:
Change the flow of the River by shaping the river, then you will see improvements, don't make a Dam just to see it leak and worsen the flow.

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I don’t have much to say about Overguard/Void Sling changes, but any plans to add functionalities to Dormizones to give them any purpose aside from just…existing? I was pretty disappointed that Dormizones had none of the features the Orbiter had, and unlocking the Vista Suite brought nothing but a platinum sink.

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Regarding amps and overguard, I don't think you should bother with any more band aid arcanes. If you really want synergy between operators and warframes, just allow us to mod our amps. Make amp-specific mods if you have to. Because if I have to farm an arcane to get a damage boost against overguard, then I would rather use weapons. It's simply not worth the effort to grind for something our weapons can already do. And there is no guarantee the arcane will be a better option.

Instead of adding more unnecessary junk, take a look at void damage and its worthless status effect. Maybe give void status a unique interaction with overguard, or something.

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While adding another arcane slot to amps is nice I think it would be better to be able to mod amps directly. This would allow them to scale better and be useful on their own. This is probably the best solution and if you are worried about balance for eidolons, we already have ways to bring down their shields really fast. It won't change much other than make them more accessible without needing a bunch of arcanes dropped by the eidolons to beat the eidolons.

Adding arcanes just for Overguard for the operator forces us to give up an slot when the amp should be enough on its own. If the Overguard arcanes are for the amp slot instead I could see using it. I for one won't give up that operator slot when conventional weapons work fine at dealing with Overguard and I can keep my utility arcanes.

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1 час назад, [DE]Megan сказал:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

"why do you always follow the lead of people who only want enemies to be killed easily? It is not that hard to kill with overpowered weapons nowadays, yet people find the reason to complain. I am not a hardcore gamer or vet or something. I am also kinda new to this game, however i dont want you to make the easy game a lot easier."- i would say if i had not been a casual player. Moreover, SP enemies basic level needs to be nerfed, it`s hella hard to survive. I am still stuck at Earth, someone halp

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Vactro said:

But a bullet sponge is not a difficult enemy, is just a boring one.

A boring enemy that can retaliate is a significantly more engaging than an enemy that died before you got to see it. A bullet sponge can at least deal 1 damage and is thus an actual enemy rather than a cardboard target practice sign.

Our damage and power levels make bullet sponges a necessary evil, just as Pablo warned a few years ago when he explained the consequences of a hypothetical buff to the Rubico to make it as usable/efficient in non-niche missions as the Bramma.

Edited by Jarriaga
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il y a une heure, [DE]Megan a dit :

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback

Thanks ! There are many things to be done, but listening to the community feedback is really nice. Overguard is not something bad, it just need some adjustments.

il y a une heure, [DE]Megan a dit :

Angels of the Zariman 1.1 is our commitment to the community in addressing the feedback from the original Angels of the Zariman launch. Our next Devstream will speak further to these changes - stay tuned! 

Looking forward to this ! Can't wait for the Devstream. 😍

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hace 1 minuto, Jarriaga dijo:

A boring enemy that can retaliate is a significantly more engaging than an enemy that died before you got to see it. A bullet sponge can at least deal 1 damage and is thus an actual enemy rather than a cardboard target practice sign.

Our damage and power levels make bullet sponges a necessary evil, just as Pablo warned a few years ago.

I literally just told you that it CAN'T retaliate. It's either them dead or you dead. Like, Mesa will destroy their health pool in less than a second, and even in the slightest chance it's able to shot at her she will not feel it with 90% DR and 90% Adaptation. Meanwhile Banshee not being able to stun them means she's instantly evaporated from the map. I really don't think the difference is that hard to grasp. As the other person that quoted you said, full CC immunity renders Warframes literally unusable in most of the game. The problem is that those frames were NEVER the problem to being with. Like geez, they're literally in the bottom with riducule usage percentages. Meanwhile the meta powerhouses are UNAFFECTED by this change because they never used CC to begin with. Really, are you reading my comments? Because I don't know how much more clear can I explain the issue here.

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Okay, i love that you guys have posted this, i really like seeing that you guys intend to make the game better.
Now, make sure that those changes dont make the game worse!
1. Just remove this stupid transferrence delay, noone likes it and its just annoying. Operators are still clunky af, dont try to slow them even more.

2. Sling changes.. just listen to the players, the game centers around fluid movement. I can see a lot of potential in void sling, expand upon it (im not gonna copy paste others ideas here, the whole forum is full of them), make it fast, responsive and accurate. 

3. Overguard changes. Imo just buff void dmg against them (NOT with arcanes) and somehow enable cc frames again (or we can just keep going with the nuke meta... its boring).   

And maybe add aimglide to operator? its a weird idea i know, but operator movement is so sluggish, Im sure you guys could make it better, i would love to use operators more.

And Again, do NOT make bandaid fixes with arcanes... For the love of god, that will make everyone hate it, it makes an arcane basically mandatory instead of having an option for fun. (This opinion extends to a lot of things in the game not just overguard, try to keep it in mind)

Really hoping to see some great changes! 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

 

How does that answer my question? You just mentioned examples that also result in the same outcome: Enemies that can't retaliate. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Again: Please define in practical, applying terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

And for the record: Your examples are why I believe elite-level enemies should take significantly reduced or no ability damage (Including from weapon buff modifiers) and they should be able to fully bypass or turn off some WF ability defenses to level-down the field, in turn encouraging the use of base survivability mods like vitality, redirection and steel fiber rather than being abandoned. They should also deal percentage damage so it doesn't matter if you're Nyx or Inaros and still get killed in the same number of elite enemy attacks/hits.

So your idea of 'Challenging' is just to... remove Warframe from the equation entirely so that it's just a gun game?

Like... Are you sure you like playing the game if you're idea of 'challenging' and I can only assume to be 'fun' is just to remove straight up 90% of the mechanics so that we can play Gunshooter The Game?

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6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

A boring enemy that can retaliate is a significantly more engaging than an enemy that died before you got to see it. A bullet sponge can at least deal 1 damage and is thus an actual enemy rather than a cardboard target practice sign.

Our damage and power levels make bullet sponges a necessary evil, just as Pablo warned a few years ago when he explained the consequences of a hypothetical buff to the Rubico to make it as usable/efficient in non-niche missions as the Bramma.

really would be better imo, if its a super tank enemy that buffs all nearby enemies, but has no weapons to protect itself, so its a Priority target, the enemy is immune to AoE, status effects and damaging abilities, if you get too close, it stops buffing and runs away and is weak to CC abilities when running away. if too many enemies die in a short time, it will try to run away to more enemies. it is quite fast and has a bullet proof shield aimed at you when running away, CC abilities can slow or disable this shield.

 

something like this is waaay more effective and unique imo.

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1 minute ago, Vactro said:

I literally just told you that it CAN'T retaliate. It's either them dead or you dead. Like, Mesa will destroy their health pool in less than a second, and even in the slightest chance it's able to shot at her she will not feel it with 90% DR and 90% Adaptation. Meanwhile Banshee not being able to stun them means she's instantly evaporated from the map. I really don't think the difference is that hard to grasp. As the other person that quoted you said, full CC immunity renders Warframes literally unusable in most of the game. The problem is that those frames were NEVER the problem to being with. Like geez, they're literally in the bottom with riducule usage percentages. Meanwhile the meta powerhouses are UNAFFECTED by this change because they never used CC to begin with. Really, are you reading my comments? Because I don't know how much more clear can I explain the issue here.

Just because Mesa and Wukong can do something about it doesn't change the core of the argument. If anything, it makes them outliers. Outliers should not be used as examples as to why something doesn't work because it means 20% of something invalidates 80% of the functional work.

Hence why I believe elite-level enemies should take significantly reduced or no ability damage (Including from weapon buff modifiers) and they should be able to fully bypass or turn off some WF ability defenses to level-down the field, in turn encouraging the use of base survivability mods like vitality, redirection and steel fiber rather than being abandoned. They should also deal percentage damage so it doesn't matter if you're Nyx or Inaros and still get killed in the same number of elite enemy attacks/hits.

Also: You are yet to answer my original question. You used the term "real challenge", which means you must have a standard, concept, definition, or application of what real challenge means in the context of a horde game. Invalidating the question or presenting examples in which the question doesn't apply doesn't negate what the question is about. The inability to define "real challenge", "real content", "fun", "interesting" and other concepts are the reason why DE can't get practical feedback from us, because they can't work around buzzwords.

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vor 20 Minuten schrieb mikakor:

what...? you went past my point. melee is STILL better to spam on overguard than operator currently is... as for CC, that's noe "some" . it's "All" . if an eximus gets near any CC squishy frame, they're done. some frames are tanky because of their abilities. CC frames survive BECAUSE of their CC. and eximus says "#*!% you, stupid frame, you die" . that's dumb. 

maybe you arent supposed to live trough everything by pressing gloom button ?

Quote on Quote tanks die onehit too unless abusing stupid shieldgate, and shieldgate is the same  to CC frames. There is no difference  between them on relevant levels, in your average Bounty u can turn off brain as Rhino sure but who cares about that

U are supposed to fear eximus not control them

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Posted (edited)

Void Sling apparently has a slight curve to its path, which makes it even more difficult to replicate the speed and movement of void dash. Probably unintended, would appreciate a fix. Also, we often get rebounded like a basketball at some contact angles, especially against corners.

I've been reporting for months that Valkyr can't get combo or any benefits from guarding with her claws, even though other frames can while invincible & using exalted melees. This means no effect from Arcane Phantasm, Guardian Derision, etc.

Exalted weapons can't use the Amar heavy attack teleport feature. 2/3 of these set mods go on the frame, so it's unlikely that they're being overwritten.

The third stage incarnon gun buffs are effectively useless since they only apply to the unevolved form.

Hopefully Sirocco becomes an incarnon weapon after all, since it's painfully weak for the Zariman content that it's recommended for. I love its mechanics but it can't repay us for that love. Trying to use it seriously in some of the Zariman bounties ends up with very protracted fights with angels.

Basic focus lenses are an awful reward for rotation C of the new Zariman gamemodes. With much less effort and time, we can get those from the first couple stages of any open world bounty. Every time I got a lens I felt both disappointed and insulted. Getting more relics or endo bundles like the earlier rotations would be far better, and give us a reason to come back after we get the weapon parts & stance. Maybe even Kuva since that's also an evergreen resource.

Valkyr Carnivex's animations make her clip herself a bit too much, notably the back of the jacket in noble idle. The noble animation holds single pistols floating in front of her hand or clipping through her knuckles. Her zipper tags on legs & jacket will rotate backwards to sink entirely into her body. The fist skin from her collection doesn't seem to be placed properly on anyone's hands. In fact, many fist & sparring weapons have awkward placement, especially Korrudo.

Zephyr Harrier stabs her fingers all the way through her palm and out the back, in the noble idle animations.

Hespar's follow-through of 0.4 makes it tough to keep in the loadout. All the wide swooshing and slicing is fun but doesn't amount to as much as it looks like it does because of that. It's somewhat disappointing for that reason and from the long farm it took, especially for being released alongside something like Praedos.

Ghoulsaw and Yareli were both left in a bad place after some initial buffs that failed to address the issues we spoke up about. The range is punishingly tough to use on something so slow. The forced slam at the end of the ride combo is undesirable on its own, and most of us would like the freedom to continue riding, without having to cancel out of it to start again. Ghoulsaw just plain cuts slowly for being a huge circular saw; chopping through someone feels like using it with the power off. Letting it hit multiple times per swing would go a long way towards making it worthwhile, since right now if I was being serious about mission performance, I'd honestly choose Machete over it. It's such a shame, especially since it was hyped up for a good long while and should've been an easy win.

Yareli has no reasons for build variety. Range for her 1's grab distance, and power strength for everything else. 4 has no good use since it ends immediately for weak damage and flings enemies in an undesirable way, since we group things up because we want to kill them faster instead of hunt them down again. Her board is necessary for survival but limits us to only one weapon for the whole mission. That weapon choice is further restricted by her passive's buff being wasted on many weapon types, notably her own signature gun Kompressa. It's a chore to use her in some tilesets, and she hits her head on doors everywhere. With this being the most relevant K-Drives have ever been to typical gameplay, it was a huge letdown that we can't use any mods on Merulina. She's also effectively banned from using Helminth since she can only cast off her board, but must be on her board for survival, and many powers cease to work if she gets on board after casting. The reason given was that animations would need to be redone, but couldn't she just perform many of the simpler powers from the waist up? As for suggestions: 4 could have an initial large pull range, then linger for a time afterwards with none. 1 could drag enemies into the nearest active 4. 4 could serve as an extra boost pad while riding Merulina. Yareli's passive could strengthen your weapon's damage based on your recent top uninterrupted stretch of speed, or recent trick high score.

Caliban's 1 is unable to be used effectively after around level 60, which is a shame because it's a fun concept. It's a little baffling that it can't reliably earn kills despite Caliban being able to fully strip & further debuff enemies. The energy cost is abysmal for how it actually performs.

Hopefully the new physics objects being tried out with Gyre can translate to proper movement for Grendel soon. He struggles to overcome obstacles we can plainly walk over, and often loses all momentum during even the smallest of landings. He also has always struggled with energy costs, and so his builds are dominated by the need to solve that problem.

The Residual arcanes don't produce zones of equal size to each other despite the descriptions claiming so. Only the shock and cold zones reach maximum size.

Melee pets just plain miss their attacks half the time. Dog fur has looked awful for months now. The colors are all forced to be more dull & yellow than they should be. Even the brightest colors end up being a medium grey at best. The layers of fur look almost like stiff plates of quills, and they clip each very noticeably.

Edited by Pfysicyst
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