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Next Update Post-Angels of the Zariman


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You could literally just remove the dumb Sling and Oveguard changes and that'd solve everything people complain about, instead of doing these weak workaround fixes, but oh well. 

At least make Sling and Dash optional. Let players use whatever they want. 

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2 hours ago, Darkfreack said:

Doesnt involve me but i understand the concern. I will express his view point like this.

CC immunity and Damage Gating just inflate the issue currently plaguing the game.
Instead of invalidating warframes and forcing us to nuke or all in on single targets, add more mechanics to the game. Making it so they take more hits will force the idea of BIGGER NUMBERS are a must. While CC IMMUNITY is make certain warframes COMPLETELY unjustifiable to play late game.

This forces a meta direction to change and being more of a must for some people. Instead what DE needs to do is add systems like overguard similar to that of Nullifers, where it is a system that can be countered. Nulls have a drone that can be popped to remove bubble for hit damage users, also high firerate or melee hits can reduce size  and standing chance against it. Add systems that change the nature and flow of combat without making these harsh brickwalls.

 

Personal Note:
Change the flow of the River by shaping the river, then you will see improvements, don't make a Dam just to see it leak and worsen the flow.

This. They are clearly not resolving the AoE-Spam meta with Overguard's CC immunity.

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Posted (edited)

Might i suggest, this is pretty out there, just don't put overguard on Eximus enemies on levels 1 - 30. Put overguard on level 40+ eximus enemies because low MR players & players who just started playing the game have to deal with them.

You guys did not think that through, I could start on xbox (as an example) launch up the game, have close to no mods then start using MK-1 weapons trying to take down overguard, how do you think Low MR or Starting players are gonna feel?

They'll possibly just avoid the enemy & run past them or use up about 50% - 75% of their ammo pool to take one out.

When i say the percentage, i'm counting both primary & secondary at the same time. 

That's not even counting the arctic eximus or the guardian eximus.

Edited by Blaudari
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Please give us the option to choose between void dash and void sling or atleast revert it back void dash was so much better and smoother void sling is still alot slower and clunkier than void dash.

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1 minute ago, AlexMercer said:

Please give us the option to choose between void dash and void sling or atleast revert it back void dash was so much better and smoother void sling is still alot slower and clunkier than void dash.

No thank you, I much prefer the new sling.

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2 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Just don't nerf overguard too much. Stick to your vision of a more engaging gameplay experience, that doesn't trivialize eximus units. I know there's a very vocal part of the community screaming about it, but there's also many of us enjoying it atm. Warframe is a better game now than it was before the AotZ update. Void Cascade is the best thing that happened to this game since Disruption was added. 

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Can you please define in practical and applicable terms what "real" challenge means in the context of a horde game?

The way I see it: An enemy that is not shut-down and/or enemies that are bullet-sponges can at least retaliate against you because they get to live enough as to do something unlike enemies you can shut-down and kill as soon as they spawn as if they were not even there to begin with.

The problem is that Eximi don't actually have an 'intended subversion path'. As they are, having almost every possible excelling facet over regular units, basically trivialises those units.

You can't have enemies that spawn randomly with little to no warning, in multiples, which are significantly more tanky, significantly less controllable, and significantly more threatening, and call them 'priority targets'.

You can't prioritise them because they are currently just The Other Guys, But Ten Times Better In Every Way. They define the balance level and leave their regular enemy at-level counterparts nearly irrelevant as a result.

 

Priority units have a method to their madness. Some limitation that directs the player on how to handle them. For example:

A threatening and uncontrollable unit which is not tanky, so the path is to quickly target and kill - their health pool is unspectacular or even lower than those around them to offset their threat.

A tanky and uncontrollable unit which is not especially threatening, so the path is sustain and defend - using aggro to hold onto them so they aren't being nuisances elsewhere and/or survivability like healing and defensive buffs to hold out while their tank is burned through (often seen in groups to be piled up and dealt with before the minor threat accumulates up to a major issue).

A tanky and threatening unit which is controllable, so the path is control and neutralise - CC to hold off the threat and give time to either burn through that tankiness directly or deal with other targets so the risk doesn't overwhelm once you tackle the priority unit.

Only sometimes in specialised, restricted encounters can 'priority targets' exhibit strengths in all three of those primary factors. You might know some of these as Assassins and Bosses. Special arenas with the opposition strictly controlled, or forewarned encounters so you can get yourself ready to deal with the exceptional target.

Eximi right now are more boss than many literal bosses, and they happen any time, anywhere, in (almost) any quantity.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

To be honest, your intentions with not just Overguard, but other desires in the update have their logic backwards:

  • Overguard

Your intentions were to make enemies with Overguard more imposing and durable in face of the AoE meta. Yet oddly, Crowd Control was targeted instead. This again makes fights against Overguard so artificially narrow, as enemies with them get to fight back with little to interrupt them. The other intent was to make Operators more crucial in stripping Overguard, but Viral remains as the only damage type that affects Overguard than any other damage type. If you consider your original desire of Void damage dealing more damage, Xaku outdamages the Operators. Better yet, how about the new players who doesn't even have the Operator?

A start would be to make Overguard resistant to Crowd Control, along with different damage multiplier to certain weapon types. Destroying Overguard should stagger the enemy with it to give them some player-to-enemy interaction. Think of one of the Void Angel's Anguish Orb attack where you can detonate the Orb with your Operator. Doing so will stagger the Angel if you detonate it while it's charging the Orb.

People already stated that adding more "Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard" isn't great. What about new players who won't have access to the Operator? Why are you locking more player-to-enemy interactions behind Arcanes when they could've been baseline?

  • Zariman Bounties and Reward

Why have you regressed back to Bounty 1.0 and Profit Taker Heist, where Bounties only reward once? Why are we doing more of Rotation C rewards of the Hespar and Aeolak parts with relatively low chances? Your intent seems to keep players engaged, but artificially extending the grind like that makes it less engaging if the time-to-reward ratio is never respected (for the time you spent, was the reward worth it?).

Please make more extensive use of Operation Orphix Venom's token system, where any amount of time invested by the player it will contribute progress. Either they get the desired drops early via the rotational rewards, or they fall back on the Tokens to get their desired drops. The new Arcanes from Cavalero are a good example of this, but that's all.

It's alright to make mistakes a few times, but repeating these same mistakes is hurting people's trust and your credibility.

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These tweaks look fantastic, but could you also look into doing a more comprehensive sort of rebalance/tweaks to Incarnon weapons?

As it stands the choices are imbalanced, many of them being so powerful there is no reason to choose the other buffs in their tier.
If you do the math for damage of Tier 5 buffs, then Devouring Attrition always comes out WAY on top, and it also can benefit from things like viral, which Spiteful Defilement can't, meaning it's an effective "forced choice" and Spiteful Defilement/Lingering Judgement become effectively obsolete.

There was lots of oversight on the tier upgrades and I'd like to see them reworked similarly to as seen in my thread below.

 

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3 hours ago, Lord_Harkkon said:

^^^^

This ! 

Please don't listen to noisy cries from those who think the game is too hard for the love of Clem !

The game is heading in the right direction please don't waste it by listening to AOE and melee spammers.

 

Looking forward to directional sling though !

De's idea of making the game harder is to just cater to melee and aoe spam, none of those got nerfed and are still fine but any build that wasn't meta is almost unusable. this update only made EHP way more tedious for everyone and make CC non viable, stagnating the damage first meta

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26 minutes ago, Blaudari said:

Might i suggest, this is pretty out there, just don't put overguard on Eximus enemies on levels 1 - 30. Put overguard on level 40+ eximus enemies because low MR players & players who just started playing the game have to deal with them.

I don't think this is a great idea.  It's  good that players  get familiar with the mechanic almost from the get go, rather than have it sprung on them at some arbitrary level.

If it's disproportionately difficult at low levels, better to change the hp scaling on Overguard at those levels.  And maybe reduce eximus spawn rates / caps at lower levels if necessary.

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3 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

I've been here since 2015. Over 2000 hours played.

You guys didn't improve your updates in terms of bugs one bit.

Hi. January 2013, 7000+ hours. They absolutely have, there will always be bugs especially in live service models, and it's just a matter of being patient for fixes.

Stop being Gamer(TM) angry. 

Anyways, thank you, DE. Your hard work is appreciated. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given. Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

Like only one other comment I've read so far, making overguard grant CC immunity was a hugely important step in creating gameplay challenges, something that CC frames in particular have been impervious to. However, now that their perfect control is not so perfect anymore, it highlights how just a couple attacks are able to completely destroy someone even on typical content.

This is what enemy health vs damage scaling looks like as far as we know:

SjlOoZo.png

Health, armor and shields were made to not scale exponentially in the Warframe Revised update, however, enemy damage was untouched. Enemy damage continues to scale exponentially into incredibly high numbers even in initial level steel path missions.

It's so high that actual player health and shield values are simply not relevant anymore, even the mighty Inaros who once boasted the highest innate EHP of frames suffers from not having 1.3s of shield gating once you enter levels in 300+. You either die when you are attacked, or you don't.

Which has led us to a backwards shield gating meta, where lower shields are better, cursing new releases like Yareli, Caliban and Gyre who would otherwise have exceptional shield pools, but these actually make them weaker in shield survival. Yet the health tank Grendel, with a base shield pool of 25, has the most reliable shield gate in the game. Building around this invulnerability is also not fun, it means you run energy-to-shield conversion mods, which pin your survival on spamming abilities with animations sometimes longer than 1s, which depends on energy, another crisis until Emergence Dissipate graced us, a superior one-arcane alternative to the entire Zenurik school (please buff the school, it has no purpose but energy).

Then there is the health inequity. If shield gating became DR instead of straight invulnerability, we would actually consider frame health points once again, kind of like what some Crowd Control frames find themselves doing. If modded for the umbral set and redirection, they compare like this:

Be4HK6W.png

  • Gyre for example has 3840 EHP, 34% of that being shields.
  • Caliban ties with Hydroid Prime, roughly setting the median EHP value of 5666. This is just above Rhino Prime! Good thing he's got that iron skin.
  • Lavos, a frame I love, gets 14121 EHP.
  • Gara Prime gets 46493 EHP. DR amirite?

The Adaptation mod, since it requires you to get hit before providing health, ends up only working on frames with already insane health pools, because the rest can't take the hits to build the resistance in the first place. The frames with damage reduction are FAR above anything else, even Yareli with Merulina despite some complaints on her survival (due to her cursedly high shields making her less survivable). This is how DR scales:

5kdnBhV.png

If DR values behaved linearly like Equinox's Pacify [1 - [DR / (1 + Strength) ] ], they would be more balanced rather than simply having free 90% DR. If they weren't weird 90% numbers on some buff icon and actually multiplied your health pool, people would realize just how unfair these are. 

TL;DR: Overguard CC immunity is a balance against crowd control perfection, but now crowd control frames deal with the unfair health and shield values they are stuck with, and enemy damage scaling is dummy high. Please reduce enemy dmg or increase frame hp so most frames no longer die in two shots.

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

In regards to Void Sling, we’re experimenting with directional changes such as strafing (sideways mobility) and backwards slings to allow more movement options. Strafe and back slings were tested during Void Sling’s development, but at the time we felt having similar directional control to bullet jump was important. Community feedback tells us that the more mobility options the better, and we are working on changes that meet that desire. Additionally we’re reviewing the code to resolve some Transference latency issues and considering other tweaks to Operators. 

Like many have already said, I hope the latency is referring to the transference cooldown that all of us currently experience.

4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We also plan to release the remaining 2 Incarnon weapons that were shown on Devstream #160, as well as some other goodies!

Those incarnon weapons are something else... Like an order of magnitude stronger than the best pistols and assault rifles we already had. Laetum has been a blessing for sidearms, and sidearm users such as Yareli.

Edited by VhwatGoes
math on pacify
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4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Additionally, we’re reviewing the possibility for new Operator Arcanes that have direct interactions with Overguard and are planning on adding an additional Arcane Slot for Amps.

At this point just make operator things into mods that are all R10 and be done with it. Because 'here we gotta farm 21 of these buggers' just feels *SO* bad. 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Please don't force us to use our mod slots, arcane slots, etc as bandaid fixes for what should be base functionality. That and adding grind (21 arcanes per) to fix what you yourselves admit are outstanding issues with the game.

I agree with this. There's too much going on with mandatory mods and arcanes to afford them being used as bandaid fixes. The Galvanized mods were a bad bandaid solution to equalizing power between guns and melee and we shouldn't have to deal with the same situation for Operators when the real problem here is that Amps are too weak. That's why it does nothing against Overguard. We either need to have Amps (and Operators) be modded like weapons/warframes so we can boost their power or have Amps do more damage in general (Personally would prefer modding). Please, DE, don't take the easy path this time and make another bad decision like Galvanized mods.

Edited by Ceryk
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4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback. We understand that doesn’t provide you with much to go off of but please know we’re committed to making good on the feedback we’ve been given.

1.) Lmfao at the wording "islands of feedback."  Turnabout is fair play, I guess.

2.) This would be a great time to give some of the most rework-desperate frames some bonus interactions with overguard, i.e. make Valkyr's talons shred through it, make Hydroid's Tempest Barrage reduce it, etc. for other frames.  If you take this feedback but apply it to augment mods instead of base functionality, so help me, I will have more words to say.

3.)  Now would also be a good time to finally let defense objectives be fully buffed by our Warframe abilities to compensate for CC's reduced usefulness against Eximus threats.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Priority units have a method to their madness. Some limitation that directs the player on how to handle them. For example:

Perfect.

 

13 minutes ago, VhwatGoes said:

Which has led us to a backwards shield gating meta, where lower shields are better, cursing new releases like Yareli, Caliban and Gyre who would otherwise have exceptional shield pools, but these actually make them weaker in shield survival. Yet the health tank Grendel, with a base shield pool of 25, has the most reliable shield gate in the game.

tbf, this is
1) An issue that most players won't come across. A vast minority go past level ~150.
2) Something that can/will be solved with an iteration on shield-gating which scales off '#shield-since-last-break' vs 'shield or overshield since last break', which is very clearly needed.

To the rest: Yes.

Edited by Chroia
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3 hours ago, FSK41 said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback.

Can we pls keep some goddamn challenge in the game? If we decrease the Overguard CC resistance increase something else to compensate, mainly HP and possibly speed or other threatening mechanics. It was such a good step to force the melee spammers to use more brain so dont go back to easymode please

I don't agree with this fact, and I wold love to see a nerf on CC Immunity !

I did a Kuva survival with friends and passed like 40min, Eximus Blitz would One shot the kuva thing you have to defend with his ability. There is just no way currently to stop them (not even geometry lol)

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb mikakor:

you are STILL missing my point, holy S#&$. i am saying that NO MATTER THE ABILITIES, even without gloom ( that i almost don't use, and didn't used for higher level mission either ) it was faster to melee the overguard than use operator... is that clear enough for you? 

Dude for the last time i dont care to use operator i want people to  suffer from eximus and die at high level 

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3 minutes ago, fabien21920 said:

did a Kuva survival with friends and passed like 40min, Eximus Blitz would One shot the kuva thing you have to defend with his ability. There is just no way currently to stop them (not even geometry lol)

If only objective health increased with mission level, like what was promised for excavators long ago :v

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3 hours ago, FSK41 said:

Another highly-discussed topic being reviewed is Overguard. We’re currently experimenting and reviewing different options to address varying islands of feedback.

Can we pls keep some goddamn challenge in the game? If we decrease the Overguard CC resistance increase something else to compensate, mainly HP and possibly speed or other threatening mechanics. It was such a good step to force the melee spammers to use more brain so dont go back to easymode please

This. Honestly just tone down the scaling of overguard so It doesn't get too meaty at higher end endurance and I believe it will be great. They already get affected by CC abilities after the overguard has been taken down and the spawn rates have been reduced. If they were to make overguard vulnerable to CC again with increased resistances than they should increase the number of spawns again. 

The added difficulty was refreshing just wasn't balanced for endurance (i endurance is never balanced but it would still be neat). 

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb VhwatGoes:

Like only one other comment I've read so far, making overguard grant CC immunity was a hugely important step in creating gameplay challenges, something that CC frames in particular have been impervious to. However, now that their perfect control is not so perfect anymore, it highlights how just a couple attacks are able to completely destroy someone even on typical content.

This is what enemy health vs damage scaling looks like as far as we know:

SjlOoZo.png

Health, armor and shields were made to not scale exponentially in the Warframe Revised update, however, enemy damage was untouched. Enemy damage continues to scale exponentially into incredibly high numbers even in initial level steel path missions.

It's so high that actual player health and shield values are simply not relevant anymore, even the mighty Inaros who once boasted the highest innate EHP of frames suffers from not having 1.3s of shield gating once you enter levels in 300+. You either die when you are attacked, or you don't.

Which has led us to a backwards shield gating meta, where lower shields are better, cursing new releases like Yareli, Caliban and Gyre who would otherwise have exceptional shield pools, but these actually make them weaker in shield survival. Yet the health tank Grendel, with a base shield pool of 25, has the most reliable shield gate in the game. Building around this invulnerability is also not fun, it means you run energy-to-shield conversion mods, which pin your survival on spamming abilities with animations sometimes longer than 1s, which depends on energy, another crisis until Emergence Dissipate graced us, a superior one-arcane alternative to the entire Zenurik school (please buff the school, it has no purpose but energy).

Then there is the health inequity. If shield gating became DR instead of straight invulnerability, we would actually consider frame health points once again, kind of like what some Crowd Control frames find themselves doing. If modded for the umbral set and redirection, they compare like this:

Be4HK6W.png

  • Gyre for example has 3840 EHP, 34% of that being shields.
  • Caliban ties with Hydroid Prime, roughly setting the median EHP value of 5666. This is just above Rhino Prime! Good thing he's got that iron skin.
  • Lavos, a frame I love, gets 14121 EHP.
  • Gara Prime gets 46493 EHP. DR amirite?

The Adaptation mod, since it requires you to get hit before providing health, ends up only working on frames with already insane health pools, because the rest can't take the hits to build the resistance in the first place. The frames with damage reduction are FAR above anything else, even Yareli with Merulina despite some complaints on her survival (due to her cursedly high shields making her less survivable). This is how DR scales:

5kdnBhV.png

If DR values behaved linearly like Equinox's Pacify [1 - [DR / (1 + Strength) ] ], they would be more balanced rather than simply having free 90% DR. If they weren't weird 90% numbers on some buff icon and actually multiplied your health pool, people would realize just how unfair these are. 

TL;DR: Overguard CC immunity is a balance against crowd control perfection, but now crowd control frames deal with the unfair health and shield values they are stuck with, and enemy damage scaling is dummy high. Please reduce enemy dmg or increase frame hp so most frames no longer die in two shots.

Like many have already said, I hope the latency is referring to the transference cooldown that all of us currently experience.

Those incarnon weapons are something else... Like an order of magnitude stronger than the best pistols and assault rifles we already had. Laetum has been a blessing for sidearms, and sidearm users such as Yareli.

You realise you are supposed to die from enemy shots at high level regardless of your modding? You are not FACETANKING a level 1000 enemy with any frame, that is ridiculous, you are supposed to evade and kill them first  or otherwise negate their damage. Damage scaling should stay as it is, you have plenty of abilities and methods to survive (vazarin,) pets that add a several instance of surviving (vasca, vulpas) 

Why people dont understand that you are supposed to suffer and be challenged by a level 300 STEEL PATH enemy and not look at him shooting you without worrying at all

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, FSK41 said:

You realise you are supposed to die from enemy shots at high level regardless of your modding? You are not FACETANKING a level 1000 enemy with any frame, that is ridiculous, you are supposed to evade and kill them first  or otherwise negate their damage. Damage scaling should stay as it is, you have plenty of abilities and methods to survive (vazarin,) pets that add a several instance of surviving (vasca, vulpas) 

Why people dont understand that you are supposed to suffer and be challenged by a level 300 STEEL PATH enemy and not look at him shooting you without worrying at all

Say that to bottom half of frames that get two-shot in any steel path content. Remember all those banshee players until gloom appeared?

I will not accept vazarin as an excuse for the ridiculous health inequity of frames. Vazarin is too perfect and part of the problem that Overguard is actually fixing, which is the unbalanceable perfection of absolute survival.

Edited by VhwatGoes
s, vazarin.
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Please buff Gyre's 4 to no longer have a cool down. With a cool down her 4 is just not worth using and that was the bulk of her kit. Aside from a problem with survivability, I think this would make Gyre a balanced and really solid warframe

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb VhwatGoes:

Say that to bottom half of frames that get two-shot in any steel path content. Remember all those banshee players until gloom appeared?

I will not accept vazarin as an excuse for the ridiculous health inequity of frames.

Unless you planning to do 2h survival with banshee on SP i dont see how banshee has a problem in Steel Path

if you die just revive, you have rolling guard, arcane aegis and the new unairu waybound as well, if u keep dying i  have a fix for you: stop dying

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