Sci Fi death battle..who wins?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

This has been floating around Reddit. So gameplay battle or lore wise, they bring whatever weapons they want from their own world to use. Who comes out on top? 
 

Personally I think one radial blind and Excal mega stomps and I’m not even being bias. 
 

and if we go by lore operators ain’t no punk bish either 

 everyone gets vaporized to the void. 

[Pinegulf]

The Shrike.

[Kaotyke]

*sees Cloud*

One of those is not like the others...

[SneakyErvin]

I'd say the Space Marine even if it is just a more generic non-named one. If we go into "hero" territory to better match things like Cloud, Master Chef, Doomguy and so on, we could just slap Kharn, Abaddon, Ragnar, Logan, Njall, Dante, Ezekiel or someone else and have a sure winner. Kharn alone has a kill count in the millions with just Gorechild his axe in toe-to-toe combat (granted, plenty of those kills are likely his own allies...). And that is in a setting of massive mechanized battlefield warfare, with "mechs" big as skyscrapers and cannons the size of tanker ships, aswell as massive demons and gods of different kinds.

I mean, I'd love to say the tenno, but we are just scraping at the surface of the void and still struggle with walls... In 40k they are in the void (warp), are granted boons by the entities within or try to battle the entities within and those that emerge. I mean sure, Wally could be something similar, but we arent there yet, so neither are our tenno.

[prodi1600]

Heres my 2 cents, since its an all out figth I say the finalist would be Space marine, Doomguy and samus.

I want to include an operator but all of the previously mentioned have to face of demons or energy like enemies daily, for operator to win, the argument would be, how much can last the warframe and witch one hes using, if we go base excalibur, I say he can last till mid figth, then it'll be the operator/drifter doing the fighting.

Operator powers are great and all but I feel that any of the ones I mentioned can deal with operator/drifter, with or without their full arsenal. So itll depend on the warframe the operator can use.

If I were the operator, based on lore, I would go with wisp, having ethereal abilities in your arsenal + the sun in the palm of my B U Tcheecks its a great advantage, remember that lore-wise wisp its like a literal ghost that can phase between dimensions and open portals, I see almost non of the ones in the rooster having a way to counter that, maybe megaman or samus. but for megaman since hes an cyborg, I see many characters targeting him first, same with samus as many of the rooster sees an yellowish or purpleish ball rolling around exploding everyone, shooting missiles and beam at everything they would focus on her.

Out of my chosen finalist I would say Doomguy have the best chance to win, hes just way too strong and way more intelligent that people give him credit for, I see metroid suit samus being a big threat but I think it'll depend on the situation for the one to win.

 

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38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd say the Space Marine even if it is just a more generic non-named one.

I say doomguy and samus can deal easy with any spacemarine, if you trow in a primarch it changes more into what version of doomslayer and samus are they facing.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, prodi1600 said:

I say doomguy and samus can deal easy with any spacemarine, if you trow in a primarch it changes more into what version of doomslayer and samus are they facing.

I dont think you'd need to up it to primarch levels, since even your "regular" WH40k heroes duke it out with actual gods. An Inquisitor would probably give Doomy and Samus a run for their money, and they are a step below normal Space Marines since they lack the bio-engineering benefits of things like the black carapace.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think you'd need to up it to primarch levels, since even your "regular" WH40k heroes duke it out with actual gods. An Inquisitor would probably give Doomy and Samus a run for their money, and they are a step below normal Space Marines since they lack the bio-engineering benefits of things like the black carapace.

Mate, I think you're severely overestimating what the average space marine is capable of. They do not "duke it out" with actual gods, unless that term has changed to mean "die horribly".

It's been a while since I visited Spacebattles, but back when I did the general consensus there was that a Warframe would beat an Astartes quite handily, and Samus would do the same to a Warframe. Not sure where DS fits on that particular totem pole.

[(NSW)6and5]

No idea who would win but dear God would I want Raiden to be one of the last people standing.

Although I'm sure most of these characters are flashy enough to make this fight entertaining.

[SneakyErvin]

36 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Mate, I think you're severely overestimating what the average space marine is capable of. They do not "duke it out" with actual gods, unless that term has changed to mean "die horribly".

It's been a while since I visited Spacebattles, but back when I did the general consensus there was that a Warframe would beat an Astartes quite handily, and Samus would do the same to a Warframe. Not sure where DS fits on that particular totem pole.

I did say avarage hero. They duke it out with what could be considered gods if we look at what Nekrons, Eldar and Chaos bring to the field of battle. And we should compare heroes to heroes. And as the whole thing also allows them to bring any weapon (and I assume equipment) from their world, the potential is near unlimited for someone out of the 40k universe. And while a Warframe would surely fare well, they are still limited to pure technology, with the void being something more unknown. We know they struggle and need to sacrifice themselves to beat certain threats, like 2 frames did on the plains, and those were just technological threats.

edit: Though in all fairness if every possible sci-fi hero was included, Scarlet Witch would likely come out winning every time, or Doctor Doom. Wanda would just say "no more <insert whoever here>" and poof it would be gone, and Doctor Doom simply has the patience and ruthlessness to try over and over and over until he comes out victorious, no matter what it costs him or others. Though with the rules, Marvel wouldnt be fair, since anyone could bring the Infinity Gauntlet as their weapon and just do whatever they want.

[Corvid]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And we should compare heroes to heroes.

When the character shown in that image is a generic space marine, then that is what we will compare.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And while a Warframe would surely fare well, they are still limited to pure technology,

They still harness the Void, and are thus considered localised reality warpers, as are a significant chunk of their non-warframe armaments. To say nothing of the fact that Tenno are quite literally immortal.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

like 2 frames did on the plains, and those were just technological threats.

The first went up against a fleet mind by itself, the wreckage of which ended up strewn across an area measured in kilometres. The second was dragged into the Sentient underworld (which I would hardly call a "technological threat") because of a momentary lapse in judgment, not defeated.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

When the character shown in that image is a generic space marine, then that is what we will compare.

They still harness the Void, and are thus considered localised reality warpers, as are a significant chunk of their non-warframe armaments. To say nothing of the fact that Tenno are quite literally immortal.

The first went up against a fleet mind by itself, the wreckage of which ended up strewn across an area measured in kilometres. The second was dragged into the Sentient underworld (which I would hardly call a "technological threat") because of a momentary lapse in judgment, not defeated.

That is also kind of a stretch. Yeah it may not be a named space marine, but it is also not a generic space marine given how he looks and what he wears. His appearance is that of a veteran, probably a captain or commander, with quite visible commendations on his armor, along with a quite obvious non-standard sword on his back in addition to the non-standard cloak/mantle/cape.

Sure, but what is the void? What could it do to say a Space Marine, with potential equipment designed to shut down/counter their equivalent of the void. The things that the sentient took years to come up with, only to require static use in the end is what Grey Knights, Librarians and sanctioned Psykers/Inquisitors carry with them on their body as regular equipment in 40k in order to shield versus their void. And at the same time, that equipment also bolsters their powers if they possess such powers. Since Warframe powers are powered by the void, chances are that aegis items from 40k would effectively work like nullibubbles/demos/orphixes in combination versus them.

The sentient underworld isnt really a thing though, there isnt anything mystical about it, it is technologically based energy, a mix between Unum and sentient, simple fallout from the initial bomb. And Gara didnt go up against the fleet mind herself, she had a massive non-tenno designed bomb with her to nuke it. Which is what killed it and not the power of the frame or tenno. Is like saying Jeff Goldblum's or Will Smith's character would have a chance fighting a Space Marine or Tenno simply because they managed to sneak a massive bomb onto a mothership is ID4. The things the tenno fight in WF are laughably mundane threats overall. We fight regular troops wearing thick armor, or we go and annihilate shipmates that wear jump suits mostly. We are really only powerful in relation to those threats, and even those kick our ass at time before we get hold of items the game isnt balanced towards.

[TARINunit9]

Purely on a firepower and physical ability standpoint: it's a toss up between Samus and the Doom Slayer, with Master Chief and the Ultramarine hanging on for respectable tie for third place (for different reasons).

Samus puts out so much blistering plasma fire in so little time, piercing cover and armor, generally just wrecking face against whatever she lays her eyes on. And she can fly indefinitely, something no one else on the list can lay claim to (except maybe the Tenno). Doom Slayer is in a similar spot with multiple energy weapons firing off in rapid succession, and what he lacks in Samus's sheer fire rate he makes up for in shredding through close-range defenses with Blood Punch/Crucible/Hellbreaker, with the added benefit of healing whenever he damages something thanks to a literal blessing from God

A lot of these soldiers aren't weak, but are using weaponry comparable to real life contemporary weapons, and that keeps them out of the finalist slot. Halo for example, the Marine assault rifle is the actual real life M14 rifle complete with the 7.62 round. Half Life and Crysis use weapons from the late 90s IRL for lore reasons. Fallout uses scavenged garbage from the 1950s. Dead Space uses repurposed surgical lasers, and the one assault rifle you find isn't much better. They just do not hold up against the two finalists.

Vanquish's Uncle Sam and Mega Man X put up a better fight. Sam's weapons don't hold up against Samus but he can match Slayer's maneuverability. Mega Man has a more varied arsenal, he's a solid middleweight and he's only let down by an extremely limited moveset in close range, the kind of fatal flaw I just can't overlook against competition this stiff.

Master Chief is so ridiculously lucky he would hold out on sheer resourcefulness alone. An Astartes is also absurdly hard to kill standing eight feet tall and packing tank-busting rounds in his pistol. Both are stacked in a thousand pounds of power armor, which will last a while against everyone else... except Samus

Now for the three wild cards:

Things get weird when you add in the Jedi and Tenno to the mix. Unlike everyone else, they're space wizards; it's basically impossible to tell if they would end the fight instantly with a single flick of their hands, or have almost no effect at all before they get chased down and their faces punched in by the Slayer. In raw damage a Tenno's techno-wizardry has the edge (Nova's antimatter bombs for instance) but you can't discount the ability of a Jedi to just telepathically crush your heart literally and figuratively at the same time

The last wild card is Metal Gear Raiden, whose strength is basically whatever the hell the cutscene needs him to be. He's strong enough to swing a 15 foot Mecha sword faster than the human eye can blink, but he can't do any damage whatsoever to Senator Armstrong? "Nano machines" only gets you so far in that explanation. He will win or lose the fight based purely on how cool it would be for him to win or lose the fight

[prodi1600]

On 2022-05-19 at 7:18 AM, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think you'd need to up it to primarch levels, since even your "regular" WH40k heroes duke it out with actual gods. An Inquisitor would probably give Doomy and Samus a run for their money, and they are a step below normal Space Marines since they lack the bio-engineering benefits of things like the black carapace.

Doomslayer its a literal force of nature, it can easily topple any regular space marine any day, equipment wont make much a difference, also samus metroid form its also way too much for any marine, for any of them the least you need its someone like magnus or papa smurf, else the marine will be dealt with.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, prodi1600 said:

Doomslayer its a literal force of nature, it can easily topple any regular space marine any day, equipment wont make much a difference, also samus metroid form its also way too much for any marine, for any of them the least you need its someone like magnus or papa smurf, else the marine will be dealt with.

At that point we ignore the rules though of the whole thing. Because you look at it as a regular marine, which it isnt, plus you neglect the part of bringing any equipment with them from their universe. Which means access to very specific demon and force weaponry, aswell as potentially possessed items, aegis suits and so on and so on. So you'd have a captain or higher, a veteran at that (which doesnt come by easy) with whatever weaponry he may want to bring. The fellow probably has around 300 years or so of acvtive combat experience at that point.

[Loza03]

I don't recognise all of these, but the ones I do...

I'll get Doomslayer out of the way first as he kind of crosses over into traditional fantasy a lot. It's also left intentionally vague what he is, beyond the reincarnation of a creator. Like, is it more metaphorical, and the reincarnation looks the same, but was for all intents and purposes a regular human granted immortality and an infinite wellspring of energy and healing? Or is he actually just, y'know, god?

With that in mind, some of these powers aren't the result of technology, mutation or superpowers, they're from soft-magic systems. And soft magic, just can't be defined. You could power scale Aang because he has feats, clear demonstrations of relative strength, but Gandalf uses vaguely defined 'Magic'. That's a part of the narrative of their worlds that Magic is a fickle, unclear thing. As such, 'Magic' disqualifies a person from my scaling.

 

Aside from that: Space Marines. These differ from chapter to chapter, but lets not beat around the bush, they're big players. Physically superior to humans in six ways to sunday, these are literally demigods from the greek interpretation dressed up in an actual tank's worth of armour and firepower. A few characters like the Tenno, or maybe Cal with more training could beat them, but only under ideal circumstances. They're actually pretty lucky that many of them reject or limit the 'Psychic' stuff from their setting, though, since a LOT of that triggers that 'Soft Magic' rule. So they're on thin ice here

Starcraft Space Marines. Otherwise regular Joes in VERY good power armour. Their armour is very good, don't get me wrong, and they'd beat a lot of other 'average Joe in power armour' folks, but they're mass-produced at the end of the day, and aren't going to beat a bespoke super soldier unless there's a big divide in tech.

Javelin... I'm not deep enough into Anthem lore to know, but they too seem to fall under 'regular joe in power armour'. 

Someone who didn't ask for this: He's cool and powerful, but let's not kid ourselves that somebody who even in his own universe is having to hide and rely on gumption and wit over raw power is going to beat space wizards or demigods...

The Tenno themselves. It's not entirely clear whether their current power level is where they'll stay, and speculative extrapolation of what they've already shown off is intense, but that's speculative. They're still very, very good, with Warframe's able to block incoming bullets and survive light orbital bombardments and Operators showing off matter disintegration, chronokinesis, free-use teleportation and a bucket of other OP powers, so they're definitely high tier, but they're probably not the best of the best... but I'd say in the top rankings for sure.

X: Base X, not a chance. But X is unusual due to his access to the variable weapons system and a number of other powers, he explicitly has 'limitless potential for growth'. By the time of the Zero series, he has transcended mortality and shown minor essokinesis - the ability to manipulate reality itself. These powers are also shown off by Zero operating at his heighest capacity, and it's been shown repeatedly that Zero is a bit weaker than X himself given adequate time. Give X enough centuries to improve and grow, and he could go toe-to-toe with even the highest order of what Doomslayer can do, but baseline X is getting stomped.

Outrider (I think): Don't know, have not played outriders if it is.

Fallout power armour survivor: Sorry, whilst they're tough, power armour canonically is bested by time and even particularly motivated people with regular firepower. These guys are honestly not that strong, and even characters like Pilots might have a winning match up.

Cloud: Similar to Doomslayer, Cloud isn't really a sci-fi protagonist. He's a fantasy protagonist. Yeah, there's technology, but it's all explicitly magical technology. I'd disqualify him based on this and the soft magic clause.

Aloy: Girl I love you but you are so out of your depth in this fight... She's a squishy human. She has no superpowers, no power armour... she doesn't even have proper firearms. She's bottom of this list, easily. She's the best she is at what she does in her world, but everyone on this list is assumed to be top-class in terms of skill anyway with a few exceptions, so that's not closing the gap as much as it does in Horizon.

Cal Kestis: Cal specifically is powerful enough to give some characters a bit of trouble (he'd have a winning match up with Chief specifically given Chiefs track record dealing with Telekinesis) but he lacks the skill and sheer power of other characters. Jedi in general, however, they're comfortably high B-listers, with the strongest in the lower A-tiers. Though with the asterisk that the really big Jedi and Sith skirt from Sci-Fi into Magic, and thus into Cloud-like Disqualification.

V from Cyberpunk: He's a guy with guns and a sword. Most of the tech-reliant people have technology that'd be hard for him to hack (Tenno use Technocyte, X's software is so advanced it literally has a soul and Space Marine power armour may just be haunted) and even with good enhancements, he's still an otherwise regular guy with a regular Katana.

Shepard: Shepard alone would be stomped, in spite of their immense skill. But this is because it's an unfair fight - what makes Shepard Shepard is their title of Commander. Shepard is a military ace who uses their team and resources. So they're on the weak side with the asterisk that they're not in the position that they thrive in.

Cayde/Guardians: hard to tell, and I'm tempted to put them into Doomslayer/Cloud situation since a good chunk of what makes Guardians powerful is their paracausality. They aren't bound by fate or cause and effect in general, and can explicitly reject it. Whilst less explicitly than Cloud, the Destiny universe is a classic fantasy setting with magic and spells that happens to have progressed to guns level. In fact, yeah, I'm gonna disqualify them on grounds that their real power comes from soft magic, not sci-fi.

Raiden: This Rules of Nature Jack the Ripper can Shoulder Toss a robot the size of a building. A BIG building. In spite of the fact that he doesn't match up in a lot of other respects, he gets rocketed to 'A-lister' from sheer strength alone.

Crysis boi: I think that's what that is. Sorry, don't recognise them!

Chief: he's good at what he does, and he's not just a regular Joe. But Chief isn't even the sheer-strength strongest (again. Raiden, but even several others are beating him) and much of a Spartan's superiority comes from this. Their actual firepower is the same as regular military joes so to compete with the big boys here, a Spartan needs to get in and punch them. He comfortably beats most of the other regular joes in power armour (and ESPECIALLY those who aren't), but he's a B-lister, tops.

Samus: Samus can and has comfortably wiped out entire species on multiple occasions. She is canonically the most powerful warrior in her entire universe, and can drain massive spaceships of all power and all life in a matter of minutes. She is literally a walking mass extinction event - and not even a Dinosaurs extinction, a Permian/Triassic extinction (the 'Great Dying'). She mops the floor with any regular soldier, including the Astartes, and only has to worry about some of the more esoteric fighters, like the speculative potentials of the Tenno and X. A. Goddamn. Lister.

Gordon: It almost feels unfair ranking Gordon after Samus, but sorry buddy, you just aren't that special. You aren't even a trained soldier. Your luck and intelligence might carry you through Half-Life, but this time the wrong place is for you. Even Aloy would have a good shot at him since outside the suit, he's outright weaker than she is.

GEARS: Highly trained professional soldiers equipped with excellent stuff, I'm sure, but they're still otherwise regular Humans - uh, Serans?

Sam Gideon: His power armour might be one of the better power suits on here, especially with how specialised it is for speed and mobility which might just let him compete with some like Chief if he plays his cards right, but he's not better than them overall. He's not even an elite Soldier, he's a test pilot. He's better trained and equipped than Gordon, but not by much.

A Pilot: This breaks my heart, but on the Ground, a Pilot is probably no more than even a GEAR. Maybe could get a win by maneuverability  advantage. Sadly, I'm not considering much of the Auxillery stuff (like, Tenno aren't being allowed Railjacks, Shepard isn't getting their team), so a Pilot isn't getting their Titan. If they did, they might be able to wreck some more considerable shop.

Isaac: I've not played Dead Space, but even I know that he's in the same exact situation as Gordon. He doesn't even have power armour, he has a regular space suit. I mean. In all practice, he'd probably even lose to Aloy, since he's at the power level where his tech/armour advantage doesn't make up for the significant skill disparity, and Aloy is VERY skilled.

[Loza03]

Actually, I'm gonna tier list this. Don't expect rankings within tiers, since that kind of nitty-gritty is just asking for arguments. Also expect X to show up a lot. 'Limitless potential' means he has an unusual power curve)

'Best Will in the World': This tier is for those with exceptional equipment, but limited training (or in Aloy's case, the inverse). Those with power, but generally won due to luck or circumstance in some way. Isaac, Gordon, Megaman X (in X1) and Aloy all show up here.

Elite Soldier or Equivilent: Elite, even exceptionally elite Soldiers, but these folks do not have the exceptional equipment to match up later. GEARS, Adam Jensen and V show up here. Shepard and Pilots show up here with Asterisks, as they're operating outside their areas of expertise (Officer-in-chief and Special Forces respectively), and they're not really equipped for a direct power scaling comparison.

Exceptional Warrior: The above, mixed with exceptional equipment or other powers that make them as far above an elite soldier as an elite soldier is above a normal human, but not both. Usually power armour. Starcraft Space Marines, Fallout Power Armour, Sam Gideon possibly Javelin users. I'll also put Cal here, since he didn't finish his martial training, but the force is a hell of a leveller.

B-lister: Beings who are themselves enhanced in power, and have exceptional equipment. Master Chief is the big one, X also spends most of his time in this department, and several of the more skilled Starcraft Marines would be here too (like Jim Raynor). Most Jedi are also here too, substituting 'equipment' for the Force.

A-Lister: AKA, demigodhood. Those who are beyond any believable mortal limitations. Tenno and Space Marines are the big ones here. If I gave Guardians a spot outside their magic BS, I'd also throw them here. X once again shows up here when he gets his ultimate armour. Or assuming that weird angel thing Copy X does is a copy of one of X's own powers, that too. Particularly high-tier Jedi like Yoda also qualify here, I think.

S-Lister: AKA, beyond conventional power scaling. AKA, Raiden who's just casually throwing around actual buildings of weight and Samus who's a walking goddamn extinction event.

 

'Magic' tier: Esoteric nonsense that is impossible to meaningfully scale. Doomguy, Cyber-Elf X, Cloud, and some the more crazy Jedi feats exist here.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

On 2022-05-17 at 1:25 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

This has been floating around Reddit. So gameplay battle or lore wise, they bring whatever weapons they want from their own world to use. Who comes out on top? 
 

Personally I think one radial blind and Excal mega stomps and I’m not even being bias. 
 

and if we go by lore operators ain’t no punk bish either 

 everyone gets vaporized to the void. 

My money on Cloud. He has quite literally tanked a supernova to the face. Not to mention his arsenal of materia, all of which can be used without a sword. He can manipulate time, create shields, dispel shields, heal himself, scan his enemies for weaknesses etc. He has alot of materia. Cloud has alot...alot going for him. Way too much to count. Only other person who possibly had a chance is the Doomslayer, and I know he is favored by the divine. Kinda makes him unkillable to an extent.

[TARINunit9]

On 2022-05-23 at 8:42 PM, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

My money on Cloud. He has quite literally tanked a supernova to the face. 

Sephiroth's supernova is the most annoying feat to quantify since it's a complete segregation between the animation and the effects:

Why does Sephiroth need the Meteor materia if he can just detonate the Sun? Why does a supernova in the real life solar system cause damage to Cloud's party in the fictional planet of Gaia? Why is Sephiroth able to detonate the Sun multiple times? And most importantly, if Sephiroth is detonating a sun in your face, why does it deal a percentage of your current health? Not of your max health, your CURRENT health. This last one more or less disqualifies Supernova from being used as a VS Battle feat. Literally every living thing can tank a supernova, because it can't kill anything

The Japanese version of Supernova makes a lot more sense. Instead of detonating the sun, he directs some (some) of the energy from another star's supernova in a far off system to his target. And unlike the American supernova, this one CAN kill you. This is an actual feat that can be measured and compared

[(PSN)max141064]

Cloud has magic, tho... 

i mean...if you are in a Sci-fi setting AND you can use magic...

i think it's safe to say that you're the winner. 

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Sephiroth's supernova is the most annoying feat to quantify since it's a complete segregation between the animation and the effects:

Why does Sephiroth need the Meteor materia if he can just detonate the Sun? Why does a supernova in the real life solar system cause damage to Cloud's party in the fictional planet of Gaia? Why is Sephiroth able to detonate the Sun multiple times? And most importantly, if Sephiroth is detonating a sun in your face, why does it deal a percentage of your current health? Not of your max health, your CURRENT health. This last one more or less disqualifies Supernova from being used as a VS Battle feat. Literally every living thing can tank a supernova, because it can't kill anything

The Japanese version of Supernova makes a lot more sense. Instead of detonating the sun, he directs some (some) of the energy from another star's supernova in a far off system to his target. And unlike the American supernova, this one CAN kill you. This is an actual feat that can be measured and compared

I dont make the game or the mechanics. Guides do confirm that it is a real supernova, gameplay kinda contradicts it since the party can survive it in thr American version. My intent is going off the Japanese supernova for the very reason you stated. American version is inconsistent. The guide I mentioned, the Ultimania guidebook, says that Supernova is exactly what it says, and it's based on the Japanese version of the attack.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

The guide I mentioned, the Ultimania guidebook, says that Supernova is exactly what it says, and it's based on the Japanese version of the attack.

Got a source? The source I found says the Ultimacarena guidebook uses the American animation

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Got a source? The source I found says the Ultimacarena guidebook uses the American animation

I'm starting to think I'm wrong. I can't find a straightforward explanation, and the sources I can find are untranslated pages. The guide I mentioned isn't even translated from what i can find. I got that info from word of mouth (obviously not a source and shouldn't be taken as fact) It's just the japanese text. Not sure I can properly defend supernova with that in mind, Cloud's durability may not actually be all that. The only thing I do have is the original shorter Japanese animation for the move on youtube, and the fact that there is a site detailing differences between Japanese and international release. It say that the original Japanese move didn't deal fractional damage, instead doing around 2000. That's all I really got. Even then, not sure if that's a good enough source to prove its damage or my point.