Eximus are not the problem

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I've been playing on PS4 for 9 years and This eximus rework has improved the things in the right direction for SOME content.

I can say that because i have the knowledge and firepower to take the eximus out at any level and these specific enemies are like most of others once you peel off the overguard that they have they can be CC'd or killed after that.

now the players that have a big problem with the eximus rework could actually look up better builds, where to get better warframes, weapons, mods ect

New content like this adds a learning curve that players have to get around and this to me is a pretty small curve honestly. 

This is not the Dev's fault for making difficult content this is a player problem if they are too lazy to adjust to challenges then picking up a different game like say any soulsborne game and playing that you'll either think its too hard or too easy depending on skill level and you'll come back to Warframe and then think Eximus are too easy.

I've noticed things like you can strip armor and shields from eximus units that have overguard and once the overguard is gone they die pretty easy.

I think if players want brainless shooting games then play COD or BF games.

Hell as the player you could just have loadouts for each faction you are going up against and bring those to kill them.

I swear when I login to this forum players are whining about  the game is too easy or too hard and both arguments are silly to me.

for it being too easy then take all the mods off and go run missions and see how you do with base gear and no mods.

for it being too hard go spend some time either asking vets how to improve or do your own research or go play another game.

another suggestion  I have is join a clan and learn how to do everything right.   

I myself am a clan leader and I'm open to recruiting and teaching players provided they are in US time zones and open minded

 

[Kubos]

I play with the new eximus and my conclusion is : timesink with march order. only positiv thing for me is i have nice rounds with newer players (in that they not leave after 5 min^^). high risk kick out new players becose if you have 3-5 eximus at a same time, they have no change. i would reduce the active numbers.

[iPathos]

One of the problems players are having with this change is that Operators were heavily touted as a viable way to counter Overguard. They simply are not - the bonus damage they deal to it (if any) is miles behind even the most rudimentary other weapon setups and shies heavily away from what DE originally said was a goal of the update.

There is also the inconsistency of certain eximus changes being overtracked or able to impossibly track (spawning energy/health leech bubbles on invisible frames for example, or still spawning them from entirely different rooms and having no direct line of sight).

Very little of the issue is what you're highlighting are the main issues people take with the update.
One standout issue I feel should be corrected is unique unit DR mechanics being protected by Overguard - see Eximus Nox not being able to have its helmet broken (and thus lower its damage reduction) until after Overguard is removed while said Overguard gets the increased damage reduction from the unbroken helmet.)

You're definitely generalizing your viewpoint on this a little hard.

[Leqesai]

This issue isn't that the new eximus units are too difficult, it is that overguard is a lazy way of artificially inflating enemy power without making the enemies meaningfully difficult. 

It goes without saying that you can wipe eximus units using meta weapons. But herein is another layer of issue. Instead of expanding the range of meta options this rework has narrowed in on the AOE meta two-fold.

Not only can you not use CC to disable/stop eximus units but the overguard they have is not resistant to AOE damage whatsoever. So you can either go AOE meta and wipe the eximus units without much thought, or try a non-AOE option which when compared to pre-rework, is even less effective because you're now spending more time targeting eximus units instead of regular units which has a negative impact on non-AOE KPS.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

2 hours ago, iPathos said:

One of the problems players are having with this change is that Operators were heavily touted as a viable way to counter Overguard. They simply are not - the bonus damage they deal to it (if any) is miles behind even the most rudimentary other weapon setups and shies heavily away from what DE originally said was a goal of the update.

There is also the inconsistency of certain eximus changes being overtracked or able to impossibly track (spawning energy/health leech bubbles on invisible frames for example, or still spawning them from entirely different rooms and having no direct line of sight).

Very little of the issue is what you're highlighting are the main issues people take with the update.
One standout issue I feel should be corrected is unique unit DR mechanics being protected by Overguard - see Eximus Nox not being able to have its helmet broken (and thus lower its damage reduction) until after Overguard is removed while said Overguard gets the increased damage reduction from the unbroken helmet.)

You're definitely generalizing your viewpoint on this a little hard.

Yeah sorry about that, you kinda get jaded after awhile of playing for years.

what I also forgot to mention is Eximus units really shouldn't appear on the low planets until much later in the game when players have more mods and other equipment. 

 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This issue isn't that the new eximus units are too difficult, it is that overguard is a lazy way of artificially inflating enemy power without making the enemies meaningfully difficult. 

It goes without saying that you can wipe eximus units using meta weapons. But herein is another layer of issue. Instead of expanding the range of meta options this rework has narrowed in on the AOE meta two-fold.

Not only can you not use CC to disable/stop eximus units but the overguard they have is not resistant to AOE damage whatsoever. So you can either go AOE meta and wipe the eximus units without much thought, or try a non-AOE option which when compared to pre-rework, is even less effective because you're now spending more time targeting eximus units instead of regular units which has a negative impact on non-AOE KPS.

The one big thing that I cared about is making the Eximus unit's auras more noticable and dodging them this alone is a huge help.

 I also think they should do a weapon rework for more regular weapons to give them higher base damage.  just for example making the boltor family of rifles better on base damage so new players can use them more because I loved my boltor prime back in the day <2014> when i started on PS4 and i still own my boltor prime & phage to this day.

in all honesty  I prefer a good AR over big explosive weapons like zarr.  hell as we speak I've been focusing on my phenmor and tenet flux rifle for good single target damage.

I know how you feel the game has a ton of weapons but really options are still kind of limited to the meta for getting the job done.

[Duality52]

39 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

 I also think they should do a weapon rework for more regular weapons to give them higher base damage.  just for example making the boltor family of rifles better on base damage so new players can use them more because I loved my boltor prime back in the day <2014> when i started on PS4 and i still own my boltor prime & phage to this day.

Non-AoE will never get close to the performance of popular AoE, no matter how much damage you bump it up.

Overguard needs different damage multiplier from both the Operator and different weapon classes. For the Operator/Drifter, take the damage multiplier when dealing with the spectral states of Thraxes. While complicated, it would be ideal to group weapons into certain categories of damage multipliers against Overguard. For example:

• High Multiplier: Semi Autos, Sniper Rifles, Bows (Direct Hits, not accounting for AoE).
• Medium Multiplier: Automatics with little to no AoE (i.e Basmu), Beams with no chaining or low AoE (i.e Glaxion Vandal), potentially Shotguns
• Low Multiplier: Weapons with sufficient AoE and chaining

If AoE gets impacted, I suspect many will resort to Kuva Nukors and Tenet Cycrons for the "single target" multiplier. Hence the different damage multipliers against certain weapon types.

Finally, again Overguard is nothing but a large health buffer with nothing interesting tacked on. It should be given a player-to-enemy interaction, where depleting Overguard will cause the enemy with it and nearby enemies to be forcibly staggered. If the Operator lands the finishing blow to Overguard, it could damage and stagger nearby enemies like blowing up an Arbitration Drone. 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

2 hours ago, Duality52 said:

Non-AoE will never get close to the performance of popular AoE, no matter how much damage you bump it up.

Overguard needs different damage multiplier from both the Operator and different weapon classes. For the Operator/Drifter, take the damage multiplier when dealing with the spectral states of Thraxes. While complicated, it would be ideal to group weapons into certain categories of damage multipliers against Overguard. For example:

• High Multiplier: Semi Autos, Sniper Rifles, Bows (Direct Hits, not accounting for AoE).
• Medium Multiplier: Automatics with little to no AoE (i.e Basmu), Beams with no chaining or low AoE (i.e Glaxion Vandal), potentially Shotguns
• Low Multiplier: Weapons with sufficient AoE and chaining

If AoE gets impacted, I suspect many will resort to Kuva Nukors and Tenet Cycrons for the "single target" multiplier. Hence the different damage multipliers against certain weapon types.

Finally, again Overguard is nothing but a large health buffer with nothing interesting tacked on. It should be given a player-to-enemy interaction, where depleting Overguard will cause the enemy with it and nearby enemies to be forcibly staggered. If the Operator lands the finishing blow to Overguard, it could damage and stagger nearby enemies like blowing up an Arbitration Drone. 

DE could Nerf explosive AOE weapons vs Eximus units which could add some spice to fighting them instead of blow up everything using only two brain cells of the player.

I'm using my Zarr atm vs corpus/sister hunting in solo mode, I don't usually use explosive weapons i feel they take some of the fun out of the fight when i can nuke a room at a time.

hell maybe they should just add in having to melee down the overguard and you have to do melee finisher to completely get the overguard removed before killing them.

or we could have Eximus to just explode after you kill them after melee finisher

[RazeLandale]

Alright, Nezha I guess. 😴

Haven't played played Wukong in awhile. 😴

Inaros isn't that good, but alright. 😴

[Lutesque]

11 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

Eximus are not the problem

Oh yes They Are....

11 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

-Snip

One thing you neglected to mention in your Lil "Git Gud" Essay is Using the Right Build and Loadouts Come at the Cost player preference....

Case in Point.... This reWork has Killed Limbo.... That's not a Metaphor by the way.... Limbo is literally Dying because Overguard Abilities can Pass right through The Rift and Destroy this Squishy Bastard....

Meanwhile Octavia only became Stronger With The Eximus Rework.... Because that's what Octavia Needed.... To become even more Powerful than she already is...

It's easy to say Eximus Rework is not a Problem when it doesn't Affect you or the way you like to play....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

11 hours ago, iPathos said:

There is also the inconsistency of certain eximus changes being overtracked or able to impossibly track (spawning energy/health leech bubbles on invisible frames for example, or still spawning them from entirely different rooms and having no direct line of sight).

It's possible those units are Triggered by Audio....

Were you running Silencer Mods on your Guns ?

11 hours ago, iPathos said:

You're definitely generalizing your viewpoint on this a little hard.

Ofcourse He/She is.... Overguard doesnt affect him/her or his/her Tools... 😝

Pretty Much what OP is Saying in Picture Form... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

11 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This issue isn't that the new eximus units are too difficult, it is that overguard is a lazy way of artificially inflating enemy power without making the enemies meaningfully difficult. 

It goes without saying that you can wipe eximus units using meta weapons. But herein is another layer of issue. Instead of expanding the range of meta options this rework has narrowed in on the AOE meta two-fold.

Not only can you not use CC to disable/stop eximus units but the overguard they have is not resistant to AOE damage whatsoever. So you can either go AOE meta and wipe the eximus units without much thought, or try a non-AOE option which when compared to pre-rework, is even less effective because you're now spending more time targeting eximus units instead of regular units which has a negative impact on non-AOE KPS.

Finally... Someone who Gets it !!! ♥️

9 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

Yeah sorry about that, you kinda get jaded after awhile of playing for years.

what I also forgot to mention is Eximus units really shouldn't appear on the low planets until much later in the game when players have more mods and other equipment. 

 

What good will that do ?

That just means there will be more Varied play styles earlier in The Game and the further you get the fewer Tools become Viable....

This is basically "Anti-Progression".

8 hours ago, Duality52 said:

9 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

 I also think they should do a weapon rework for more regular weapons to give them higher base damage.  just for example making the boltor family of rifles better on base damage so new players can use them more because I loved my boltor prime back in the day <2014> when i started on PS4 and i still own my boltor prime & phage to this day.

Expand  

Non-AoE will never get close to the performance of popular AoE, no matter how much damage you bump it up.

This....

AoE has always been Meta one way or another...

If you can do it with Guns then people will do it with Melee.... And if you can't do it with Melee then people will do it with Warframe's....

Anybody who thinks Simply fiddling with the numbers on weapons either hasnt played for very long or has a very Short Memory...

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

New plays don’t have access to all the mods.

The Grendel farm removes all your mods and throws Eximus at you.

this post is just a long winded “Just git gud, scrub”.

[TheLexiConArtist]

The lazy 'normalising' of unit health on the eximi doesn't help. Some units aren't just low health because they're fodder, they were lower health because of their threat. A Scorch/Elite Tonkor Noob Shield Lancer is softer than a Lancer/Bombard while their output is much higher.

 

Tell me, when you have enemies that are designed not to die immediately (relative to the other units of the tileset at level, not our most Cheese of Meta) and can't be controlled until they're basically dead anyway, which also can do thousands of damage per shot/swing/second to an immobile defense-objective which has maybe 15000 health if you're lucky, what can you actually do if they decide to hard focus that instead of getting distracted by you?

Your options are exclusively physical barrier abilities, or significantly overscaled gear (and if not blind AOE, still need luck that you see it coming in time to handle the issue).

Otherwise the mission is failed because the Eximus has no native weakness to counter with. It's too threatening to leave, too Overguarded to control, and beefy enough that it stands a chance of landing three whole seconds of output on a console or pod that can do nothing to 'just dodge it lol'.

And there's Blitz Eximi capable of that in every faction since their ability can multi-hit a target that overlaps the sequential explosions.

[Stafelund]

In the end I realized Eximus aren't a problem in a short normal play, but rather their overguard discourages players to stay in a long game, because that's where they start to swarm the playing field.

It's still nonsensical IMO.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Oh yes They Are....

One thing you neglected to mention in your Lil "Git Gud" Essay is Using the Right Build and Loadouts Come at the Cost player preference....

Case in Point.... This reWork has Killed Limbo.... That's not a Metaphor by the way.... Limbo is literally Dying because Overguard Abilities can Pass right through The Rift and Destroy this Squishy Bastard....

Meanwhile Octavia only became Stronger With The Eximus Rework.... Because that's what Octavia Needed.... To become even more Powerful than she already is...

It's easy to say Eximus Rework is not a Problem when it doesn't Affect you or the way you like to play....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's possible those units are Triggered by Audio....

Were you running Silencer Mods on your Guns ?

Ofcourse He/She is.... Overguard doesnt affect him/her or his/her Tools... 😝

Pretty Much what OP is Saying in Picture Form... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Finally... Someone who Gets it !!! ♥️

What good will that do ?

That just means there will be more Varied play styles earlier in The Game and the further you get the fewer Tools become Viable....

This is basically "Anti-Progression".

This....

AoE has always been Meta one way or another...

If you can do it with Guns then people will do it with Melee.... And if you can't do it with Melee then people will do it with Warframe's....

Anybody who thinks Simply fiddling with the numbers on weapons either hasnt played for very long or has a very Short Memory...

 

I've seen a few YT videos where players have mods on weapons or frames and can kill eximus units in.

I don't think most low rank players will have frames like limbo or others that are quest related right away.

and odds are if players do that frames like limbo or grendel they are probably higher rank so they could have access to mods to kill eximus 

what is so hard about focus firing on an eximus until its CCable or dead ?

as well as i have a funny feeling you didn't read my Git Gud Essay all the way through where i mentioned multiple solutions to the problems.

it becomes "Oh look some lame vet that is proposing ideas i can shoot down because i'm having a hard time with new content because i'm not actually as good as i think i am"

Learning how to make proper loadouts with mods is very basic step in this game.

you have the cheap version with say silver mods ya know the 90% elemental mods when maxed out or get the 60/60 mods which are gold then you have the expensive mods like the primed mods.  most mods aren't that hard to get your hands on.   and yes you are at the mercy of baro when he comes around EVERY TWO WEEKS omfg i have to wait two whole weeks to see what goodies baro claus has for me.

then you may have complaints about the ducats and you're playing a farming game so ya know you could go farm.

 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

Ok just out of curiosity what Master Rank is everyone in this topic around ? 

I'm Legendary 2.

[Frendh]

19 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

II can say that because i have the knowledge and firepower to take the eximus out at any level and these specific enemies are like most of others once you peel off the overguard that they have they can be CC'd or killed after that.

I an only speak for up to about level 200. But using CC after getting rid of the overguard is very inefficient use of time for me.  Overguard health is way higher than the unit health. Just keep shooting it and it will die in a fraction of the time it took to remove the overguard. I often armor strip, so I do not know if armor changes things at higher levels. But if you are doing higher levels you should have some kind of armor strip available. So that they can be CCed afterwards is rarely to my advantage.

CC is used to mitigate large threats and/or ease of landing shots on quick tanky units. Eximus without overguard does not count as a large threat nor a quick tanky unit.

[Traumtulpe]

20 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

these specific enemies are like most of others once you peel off the overguard

What a weird thing to say. The Overguard is the entirety of these enemies. 90%+ of their health, and 100% of their functionality.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

39 minutes ago, Frendh said:

I an only speak for up to about level 200. But using CC after getting rid of the overguard is very inefficient use of time for me.  Overguard health is way higher than the unit health. Just keep shooting it and it will die in a fraction of the time it took to remove the overguard. I often armor strip, so I do not know if armor changes things at higher levels. But if you are doing higher levels you should have some kind of armor strip available. So that they can be CCed afterwards is rarely to my advantage.

CC is used to mitigate large threats and/or ease of landing shots on quick tanky units. Eximus without overguard does not count as a large threat nor a quick tanky unit.

my solution is I use Unairu focus school it gives you access to armor & shield removal 

[iPathos]

9 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's possible those units are Triggered by Audio....

Were you running Silencer Mods on your Guns ?

I mean when not moving and regardless of frame; Ash, Loki, Ivara, Valkyr through Out of Sight.

Sound would have been my first guess if not for that stipulation.

2 hours ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

Ok just out of curiosity what Master Rank is everyone in this topic around ?

Legendary 1 here.

52 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

my solution is I use Unairu focus school it gives you access to armor & shield removal 

Yep, this has been my go-to since the focus rework as it just tends to be a more reliable method consistently.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

This all sounds more and more like players just want the old eximus units back with no new changes just so they can be killed with all the other enemies with no challenge at all.

 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

This all sounds more and more like players just want the old eximus units back with no new changes just so they can be killed with all the other enemies with no challenge at all.

 

How do you figure that?

Many players have commented on generally liking the eximus abilities but complain about overguard. There is a reason DE are re evaluating overguaed. Because they recognize it is lazy and needs revision. The extra challenge is welcome but overguard as it currently stands is lazy and breaks gameplay for many builds. It also reinforces the very lazy aoe meta which needs fixed as well.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

How do you figure that?

Many players have commented on generally liking the eximus abilities but complain about overguard. There is a reason DE are re evaluating overguaed. Because they recognize it is lazy and needs revision. The extra challenge is welcome but overguard as it currently stands is lazy and breaks gameplay for many builds. It also reinforces the very lazy aoe meta which needs fixed as well.

Yeah and when they dropped the Railjack update on us around christmas and went on vacation like they did we got stuck with a busted mess of an update and took awhile to fix it and get it to where it should be.   this Eximus update may take about as long if not longer to get it right.

hell it took DE awhile to get Xaku in a balanced state as well where it wasn't a dumpster fire.

[Tyreaus]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

This all sounds more and more like players just want the old eximus units back with no new changes just so they can be killed with all the other enemies with no challenge at all.

 

Or, alternatively, a differentiation between 'making the game dead simple' CC and 'making a Warframe or mission playable' CC. Vauban's Vortex vs Banshee's Silence or Impact procs, for example. Not to make it dead easy as Eximus units of before, but to provide some sort of redress besides "moar damage". In part because that's always going to conflict with the developer intent for Eximus units to be more durable, lasting threats.

Mind that soft CC is not the only way to do it: when the Eximus rework was first teased, I suggested making those units melee-only to emphasize parkour as a counter to their power output. Another tweak on top of that could be making them ignore defense objectives and be dedicated 'Tenno hunters', which helps loosen the TTK requirement by a lot (as in the case of defense objectives, as TheLexiConArtist points out).

Also means you don't have to stare at a build screen to optimize your loadout, because "good enough" kits remain "good enough". See, also, Leqesai on how the current iteration pushes AoE weapons. IMO broader usability is almost always good.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Or, alternatively, a differentiation between 'making the game dead simple' CC and 'making a Warframe or mission playable' CC. Vauban's Vortex vs Banshee's Silence or Impact procs, for example. Not to make it dead easy as Eximus units of before, but to provide some sort of redress besides "moar damage". In part because that's always going to conflict with the developer intent for Eximus units to be more durable, lasting threats.

Mind that soft CC is not the only way to do it: when the Eximus rework was first teased, I suggested making those units melee-only to emphasize parkour as a counter to their power output. Another tweak on top of that could be making them ignore defense objectives and be dedicated 'Tenno hunters', which helps loosen the TTK requirement by a lot (as in the case of defense objectives, as TheLexiConArtist points out).

Also means you don't have to stare at a build screen to optimize your loadout, because "good enough" kits remain "good enough". See, also, Leqesai on how the current iteration pushes AoE weapons. IMO broader usability is almost always good.

I played Vauban a lot way back in the day when i was a noob and loved the CC aspect of the frame and others later on.

DE could do way better then what they have released but it won't be changed until probably later in this year.

I honestly would laugh if they nerfed the explosive aoe meta like zarr and other weapons, I'd honestly prefer if the warframes did the aoe damage and even then could be improved.

[Leqesai]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)SlyFox5679 said:

Yeah and when they dropped the Railjack update on us around christmas and went on vacation like they did we got stuck with a busted mess of an update and took awhile to fix it and get it to where it should be.   this Eximus update may take about as long if not longer to get it right.

hell it took DE awhile to get Xaku in a balanced state as well where it wasn't a dumpster fire.

While I agree with you, you didn't really answer my question.

I asked why you think players want old eximus units back.

 

It kind of goes without saying at this point that DE have a track record of releasing major changes in either half-baked or no-baked status. Players tend to voice their disapproval of asinine changes which is likely related to DE's history of making significant changes when things are overwhelmingly negative. Overguard is one such situation because it:

A: invalidates CC builds
B: furthers the current meta which already throws off game balance by an extraordinary amount

Eximus units are just as vulnerable now to AOE meta as they were before, and as I've already said in a previous post the huge amount of damage-neutral health added to eximus units makes single target weapon options less effective when measuring KPS.